Right hand seat question

[Atlas Shrugged]

I have a hypothetical question that I can't seem to find the answer to in the reg's:

The PIC of a private flight holds a PPL but is not licensed to fly in CTA. Pax in right hand seat also holds PPL and is licensed to fly in CTA. Part of the proposed flight will be conducted in CTA. Can the pilot in the right hand seat conduct that part of the flight in CTA?

Atlas

[EngineOut]

As far as i know- no. I think you have to be an instuctor or a Check/training Captain to be PIC from the RHS.

Anybody feel free to correct me if I am wrong. This is only from memory, so if anybody has reg references, I would like to look them up myself.

[cjam]

I would be interested to know what the rules say. If there are toe brakes and fully functioning controls on the RH side then is it ok to just jump in and fly from the right if you are not an instructor? I know this is very common practice with some a/c.
Is it type specific?

[404 Titan]

I don’t think there are any rules governing PIC from the right hand seat. I have tried looking for it before but with no luck. If someone can prove me wrong, go for it. As long as there is a complete set of dual controls then it is legal. I personally would advise anyone from trying this though as it can be completely different trying to fly an aircraft from the right seat if you haven’t done it before. The landing can be very tricky because one’s motor skills are accustomed to the left hand seat, i.e. left hand flies while right hand controls power. For some it can be like trying to write with your left hand if you are right handed. If you want to do it get some instruction from a flying school for an hour or two.

[Speeds high]

As far as im aware the rules state that you must fly from the seat that the aircraft flight manual stipulates.

But i have been known to be wrong before

[Richo]

Hello Atlas S

I think that there are two seperate questions here worth answering. This is my opinion only.



1. Can you fly the aircraft from the RHS with one or more pilots. Simple answer is yes.

Complicated as it is, that the Manafactures states which seat and minimum crew compliment in thier POH, and which was duplicated in the old Flight Manual.

So if the manafacturer says OK then you can fly the aircraft from either seat in singe crew ops. Most types allow this, but some do specify only one seat to be used when flying one up. ie DH82, B200 etc

The interesting and confusing part is when we add the word command (not neccesarily fly) the aircraft. Say with an instructor or check pilot on board, they can command the aircraft from either seat. Unless of course the POH does not allow this or has restrictions.

In your case with two pilots on board which one is or can be the PIC. This is dependant on who owns/hires/is rostered or assigned to be the PIC.

But what does the owner/operator/insurance company think about this. Another question which must be satisfied as well. Most organisations will require a check from the RHS before allowing you to fly or command from the RHS.


2. This is a little more complicated.
Can a PPL without CTA endorsement COMMAND and fly an aircraft in CTA with another PPL who is endorsed, in the RHS.

(it is worth noting that the CTA part of a PPL is an endorsment on that licence and not a licence in it self, which is usually part of a PPL, but not always. Ie both are licenced PPLs but one has a restriction on CTA ops)

a. If PPL RHS was the rostered/assigned or agreed to be the PIC, and the POH allowed RHS PIC, then it would be OK.

Note here I don,t belive that you can change the COMMAND of an aircraft in flight (operations manual dependant), but if approved may have several pilots flying. Ie think Captian and Copilot, both can fly but only one can make COMMAND decisions.
If PPL LHS hired/owned/was rostered/agreed etc as the PIC then NO you could not fly through CTA.

I trust that you are aware, as it has been the subject of much discussion in other threads on PPRUNE that ICUS is not available to PPLs.

b. If PPL RHS had an approval from CASA in the form of a letter of aggreement or training approval (maybe in the future a PPL instructor rating (FIR)) then it would be OK as well.
I do know of this happening in the past, where a PPL without CTA, flew with approval, in formation with another ACFT through CTA.

c. The regs do allow for an licenced Navigator to be carried as an approved naviagtion system and I do suppose that you could argue that PPL RHS can fullfill this duty. But it really does come back to the bit about COMMAND, and you can only utilise those endorsements which the PIC holds unless training to upgrade.

Hope this may have helped.

[flyby_kiwi]

I cant imagine the rules would mention it because I doubt such a rule would exist as to wheather you have to fly right seat or left. (Apart from scenarios such as those mentioned by Richo such as a B200)

Put it this way - How do you train as a Grade III without flying in the right - You wont YET have your instructor rating nor will all your Grade III training be dual - Therefore you must be able to.

Thats how we do it here and I cant imagine Aus would be any different (And yes we can and do carry pax on private ops while flying from the right without an Instructors rating - usually just while building the time for the issue of the rating).

As some of you who have instructed will agree the principals behind what you are doing are the same its just that your sitting a few inches over so there are no huge saftey issues (on most light a/c). Theres bound to be an exception somewhere but by an large the above stands for most a/c.

As far as Atlas's question goes the pilot in the right seat should be able to fly that leg - As long as it is clear that at that time he is acting PIC.

[swh]

Atlas Shrugged,

For any flight only one person can be PIC, the seating requirement is not in the regs as you can have side by side, tandem, or other configurations.

This will be stipulated in the type certificate data sheet, approved flight manual, and in the Australian case the type acceptance data sheet for the aircraft type when required.

As you mentioned in you question, for a single pilot operation, one person is clearly a pax the other the PIC, the PIC for the flight must be able to fly in CTA. If the other person is a pax, they cannot touch the controls during the flight, and the PIC will have briefed the Pax to this effect.

If you elect to have the other person as a crew member, they could only act as "co-pilot", as the are performing any other duty apart from the PIC. The PIC is still required to be rated and current irrespective of the "co-pilots" qualifications.

If you want reg refs, I can give them to you.

[Ibol]

RICHO...................

Captain and Copilot, both can fly but only one can make COMMAND decisions.

What if the Captain's asleep in the crew rest. (QANTAS):zzz:
Does the F/O make command decisions? :confused:

I think so. :ok:

Just an example of changing command in flight.

I can't see a problem with 2 suitably qualified (endorsed) pilots changing command in flight, providing as you say the aircraft does not stipulate the LHS as the command seat.(dual controls/brakes etc) Just dragged out my old PA28 flight manual. It says min op crew of one. doesn't state which seat.

But then again, I ain't CASA am I.

[Matt-YSBK]

I was sitting in the right hand seat some time ago (I think i only had my GFTP at the time) I was with a friend of mine who had just got his PPL and i was going along for a ride in the T/A. We had taxied out after an un eventful pre-flight and got clearances to takeoff. We had just left the runway (less the 50ft) and I was looking out the right hand window minding my own business when the aircraft pitched up from what felt like a normal climb to a very steep climb and I felt our forward momentum drop to what felt like nothing.

At the same time my friend yells TAKE OVER! I quickly grabbed the controls and pointed the nose level as the stall warning was screaming at me. We started building up speed and after we passed 80kts i started a normal climb.

At this time the tower ask's "A.B.C Op's Normal" I finally get a second to look over at my friend to my surprise is not sitting next to me but in the back and out of reach of the controls. The Seat adjuster had slipped and the seat had fully reclined. He had the aircraft trimmed to far back and that combined with the nose up pitch of the aircraft could not move the seat back into position or reach the controls.

I guess it was not legal to take the controls but im glad I did
As a footnote my checklist now included pushing back on the seat a couple of times before beginning takeoff roll.

[Richo]

Matt-BK

Well done and I hope you(we) all learn something from your experiance.

I don't belive for a second that you can be in any legal trouble, as what you did was in an EMERGENCY situation and in that case anything goes. Again well done.
I hope you submitted the ASIR so the records can show the trend for this frighteningly regular accident.

Ibol (hope you don't mind if I don't shout)

Thank you for pointing that out, the big Q is not an area in which I have any experiance and am not likely to either. I did point out that exceptions in Operators manuals can and do occur, and in this case I think that is where you would be given that authority against a CAR as pointed out by SWH. Maybe you can expand on the procedures used by Q in what decisions the CP (FO) is limited, if at all, to.

Finaly if we wish to play senario based COMMAND questions try this one on.

You are a Grade 2 or 1 instructor with lots of flying experiance. A friend PPL askes you to come along on flight. ie you are not rostered or assigned to fly.

During the flight a problem stars to occur, say something minor. (Because if it were major it would be an emergency, and then it all changes)
Can you/do you/would you (3 questions) take control (COMMAND).

Many of you may have seen or heard of it before, what do you think.

[Tinstaafl]

More than one question here:

1. Is it legal to fly from the R.H. seat (or more generally, from a non-conventional control seat)?

Yes. As long as the aircraft's flight manual, POH or equivalent doesn't mandate flight from a different seat positions for that flight's circumstances eg solo flight in a Victa Airtourer.

2. Is it legal to be PIC from the R.H. seat.

Yes. As long as the aircraft's flight manual, POH or equivalent doesn't mandate the PIC be seated elsewhere for that flight's circumstances. Don't know of any that do.

3. Is it legal to transfer command in flight.

Yes. Nowhere in the rules that I'm aware of does it prohibit such a thing. What it does say is that there can only be one PIC. Indeed, the philosophy of a hierachy command in multi crew operations has built in to it an orderly transfer of command eg Capt. becomes ill & is no longer fit for duty so the FO takes command.

[swh]

Tinstaafl,

3. Is it legal to transfer command in flight.

Yes. Nowhere in the rules that I'm aware of does it prohibit such a thing. What it does say is that there can only be one PIC. Indeed, the philosophy of a hierachy command in multi crew operations has built in to it an orderly transfer of command eg Capt. becomes ill & is no longer fit for duty so the FO takes command.

CAR 224 (1) For each flight the operator shall designate one pilot to act as pilot in command.

Even if the PIC is asleep in the crew bunk they are still PIC. If the A/C had an incident/accident when they are not at the controls the accident/incident report would still have them as PIC.

[Tinstaafl]

Yes. It says only one pilot can be in command. It says nothing about transferring command.

[Howard Hughes]

What if, what if, what if?

SWH

What if the PIC was dead in his crew bunk?

Who fills out incident report? puts his name as PIC?

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[swh]

HH,

My guess it would be the guy in 33F who just gained his GFPT day dreaming of the day that the Capt died mid flight and he had to come to the controls just before the engines stalled and wrestle to regain control of the bright green sonic cruiser and put it down safely at Wonderland International airport to the cheers of humpty dumpty, snow white and other celebrities on board, whilst being transmitted live in blow by blow, second by second, TV coverage by Roy and HG.

Tinstaafl

I translated CAR 224 (1) into Arabic, Hausa, Shona, Swahili, Yoruba, Zulu, Anjumarla, Arabana, Arrernte, Awabakal, Ayapathu, Bundjalung, Bunuba, ,Dyirbal Gooniyandi, Gumbaynggir, Gunggari, Guugu Yimithirr, Ilgar, Jagera/Yuragubul, Jaru, Jiwarli, Kaurna Kriol, pidgins, Kuku Yalanji, Kutthung, Luritja/Pintupi, Martuthunira, Mawng, Meriam Mir, Murrinh-Patha, Narrungga, Ngadjon, Ngarrindjeri, Ngiyampaa, Nhirrpi, Noongar, Paakantyi, Pakanh, Palawa Kani, Pitjantjatjara, Pitta Pitta, Tjapukai, Uw Oykangand, Wagiman, Wangkatha, Wardaman, Warlpiri, Warrungu, Warumungu, Wemba Wemba, Wiradjuri, Woi wurrung Yaegl, Yandrruwandha, Yanyuwa, Yindjibarndi, Yolngu, Yorta Yorta, Yugambeh, Yukulta.....

......does not matter how I look at it, one flight = one pilot in command. Transferring command that would be one flight = multiple pilot in command.

[Spotlight]

Aha, but who is the operator in the original 'private flight' question? The bloke who has the most shares in the A/C? Or, should they both own 50%, the one who last booked the fuel up on his Visa.

Personally I don't see any problem with the proposition that the PPL could legally under our regs hand control (and command) to the CPL in that circumstance.

Wonder why our new CASR's are dragging on for so long and assuming the importance of the Temple of the Mount? Because, the above is the type of example the baldy headed one and his mates rattle off as BAD Regulation.

Who is it going to hurt? No one, just do it.

[Howard Hughes]

I think your spot on SWH.
I cant stop laughing!!

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[*Lancer*]

Hahaha, SWH has got it...

You can fly from the RHS, you can be in command from the RHS, but you can't CHANGE command during a flight.

CAR says one nominated PIC per flight (and 'flight' is defined as when a/c first moves under own power for purpose of taking off, till comes to rest at end).

And YES, the Qantas Captain asleep in the bunk, is still in command! :D

Lancer