Aerobatic Aircraft

[devolved]

I am looking around Bankstown to do an Aerobatic Rating. It seems that the local BK schools offer Decathlons, Robin 2160s & a Pitts Specials. Assuming that Pitts are above my level, between the decathlons and robins; what advantages do these aircraft have over each other?

For the aerobatic pilots out there; what Aircraft would you prefer to learn aeros on?

Any info would be much appreciated.

[Wizofoz]

Decathlon- Tailwheel, so you get that experience as well. Full inverted fuel and oil. Better power/weight (Particularly if it's a 180HP). Central seating position.

Robin- Nice little semi-aerobatic tourer/trainer, but not a "real" aerobatic aircraft.

[AerocatS2A]

I learned on a C152 and then progressed onto a Pitts. Although the C152 is not great for aeros, I think it is important to learn on something which isn't over endowered with performance and handling. The problem with the Pitts is that it is far to easy, you just set the power and point it where you want to go. If you learn on one, you will get a rude shock when you try and aerobat something not quite as sporty.

I concur with the suggestion to go for something with a tail-wheel, it will make the transition onto some of the more sporting aerobatic machines (which are mainly tail-wheel) a little easier.

The Decathelon sounds like a good choice amongst your options, I don't know anything about the Robin, and as I said, the Pitts is not that great at teaching you the finer points of energy management.

Good luck, and have fun, it is a valuable thing to learn!

[Tinstaafl]

Yes. If you think of aeros as energy management, and not just precise control, then an 'underpowered' a/c will be beneficial in the long run.

[plear crop]

I agree with Wizofoz.

A Decathlon with 180 horses (Super Decathlon) has the correct amount of power to weight ratio for the beginner! Not too much like the Pitts, but not too little like the C152 Aerobat.

The Super Decathlon has a higher Vne than the 8KCAB 150 hp and has a different wing.

There is one a HOX (Liverpool Flying School) with a metal wing and aileron spades and in really good condition.

Good Luck with it all!

[devolved]

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Anyone have any preferences for aerobatic flight schools in the Syd basin? (with a decath) :)

Regards.

[sancho]

Try Curtis aviation at Camden. Jimmy Drinnen is the guy to see.

They have a few Citabrias, only 160hp, but still great to learn aeros and tailwheel. I dont know of any schools with a Decath or Super decath online, but you may find a private one around. Get some tailwheel experience and go from there.

Later, if you want to fly a Pitts try Action Aerobatics (Phil Unicombe) at Maitland? (I think) He is a good operator and has a few Pitts S2S and single seaters too.

Curtis Phone is 02 455 6789. www.curtisaviation.com.au
Action aeros can be found at www.aerobatics.com.au/

Have fun!


Just found this one...http://www.liverpoolflyingschool.com.au
They have a super decath, but never flown with them so cant vouch for their training. Good Luck!:ok:

[7gcbc]

Could not agree more on Curtis Aviation, They have 2 citabrias now on line, a new MWY - Explorer which is certified for aeros , and an older WKM (wooden spar) no aeros.

They also have a Dh82 on line, but its' not certified for aeros yet, will be in the coming months. <the spin in a tiger is delightful>

Jim Drinnen pretty much taught me all I know about tail-wheels, and if you can put-up with the occasional sore shoulder from his critique, you'll learn a hell of a lot.

[djpil]

I suggest that you go around to the schools and talk to the instructors - your first priority is to find a good instructor. Doesn't cost anything to talk to Noel at Sydney Aerobatic School or Bruce at Curtis. GFS has a Decathlon at Bankstown but I don't know who's instructing on it. Even the Cessna 150 Aerobat is a great little aerobatic trainer.
If you intend continuing on with aerobatics try to meet the other pilots who fly there and see what they're doing. Best place to meet the serious aerobatic pilots is the National Championships at Easter.

[Aileron Roll]

Cannot beat the trusty old Cessna 150, excellent machine for learning all the basics and height managment

HAVE FUN !

did you know...................that...............


CITABRIA is airbatic spelt backwards !

[outofwhack]

Devolved,
If your ever up near Brisbane there's a Pitts Special S2A two seater available for hire from Mal Beard at Archerfield. The details are at airdisplay.com.au

Mal's an old bold cropduster pilot who was Australian aerobatic champ 4 years running. Great guy and not a bad instructor.


OofW

[djpil]

Mal also has a Decathlon and Cessna Aerobat up there so the above arguments also apply.

See also this Avweb article (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182690-1.html)

PS - Mal is not that old!

[jimshutt]

Where does the lovely little Victa Airtourer stand in the ratings?

[djpil]

The trouble is that not all Airtourers were created equal. All very nice to fly but the rudder is too small. The ones built in NZ with the 150 hp engine are much better - that power loading is a better match to the wing loading.
If you learn aerobatics in an Airtourer make sure that you learn spinning on something with more classical characteristics.

[Disco Stu]

As djpil says all Airtourers are not equal, therefore they all have to be flown differently in accordance with the individual aircraft characteristics( AFM :yuk: )

Whilst I personally have never had any trouble making an Airtourer rudder work (size 13 feet;) ) I have seen some students 'pussy footing' the rudders with predictable outcomes. And that is not the fault of the aircraft, which by the way was designed, built and certificated to the then Australian standard some years before the requirements of FAR23 were ever formulated, enacted and accepted in most countries.

Flying an Airtourer (any aircraft for that matter,) properly means fully understanding the aircraft, it's characteristics and the laws of physics as they apply to what you want to do. Forget any of that relationship and things will and do, get very untidy.

Disco Stu

[djpil]

I should explain my comment about the rudder being too small.

In its early days the Airtourer had a flat spin mode which was eliminated by limiting elevator deflection resulting in the current spin characteristics - it tends to spiral out.

A more elegant solution might have been to do as they did with the Robin 2160. The prototype had spin problems so it grew some extra fin area and a larger rudder.

The rudder size really matters in a stall turn, the Airtourer just doesn't go around as neatly as an Aerobat or Decathlon.

I didn't mean to suggest that the Airtourer doesn't comply with CAO 101.22 or FAR 23 (the T6 is a FAR 23 airplane) but I have wondered how the T6, without wing stall strips, was shown to comply with FAR 23.201 "it must be possible to prevent more than 15 degrees of roll or yaw by the normal use of controls"