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Davaar
8th Feb 2004, 03:40
Can any PPRuNer help me here? Years ago I read in some French text:

"Il y en a toujours l'un qui baise, et l'autre qui tourne la joue"

(my translation: There is always one of them who offers the kiss, and the other who turns the cheek).

That's as I remember it. I could be off on a word orwo, but that was the gist.

Who wrote it?

Techchick
8th Feb 2004, 03:57
Wasnt napoleon, was it?

Boss Raptor
8th Feb 2004, 04:31
It starts 'in love....'

In love, there is always one who kisses and one who offers the cheek

old french proverb not attributed to anyone particular that I am aware of

Ascend Charlie
8th Feb 2004, 05:58
Well, my French must be a little more earthy than others, because to me, "baise" means something a bit more serious than kissing.

The poem was written about his gay lover:
"There is always one who ****s, and one who parts the cheeks."

But then, french wasn't le plus fantastique pour moi.

Bre901
8th Feb 2004, 06:41
Davaar

I think the wording would be :
"[En amour] Il y en a toujours un qui baise, et l'autre qui tend la joue"

Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=qui.baise+tend.la.joue+&btnG=Google+Search) only returned a couple links (the Aussie one is dead) plus 24 (similar) Russian links.

It is quoted at the beginning of "Two ways to love" by Susan Coolidge. (http://www.knowledgerush.com/paginated_txt/etext03/versc10/versc10_s1_p41_pages.html)

"Entre deux amants il y a toujours l'un qui baise et l'autre qui tend la joue."

Something quite similar by Honoré de Balzac :

"En amour, il y en a toujours un qui souffre et l'autre qui s'ennuie"

In love there is always one who suffers and one who gets bored.

I also found a French quote site (http://membres.lycos.fr/cultureg/Citations_par_auteurs/b.html)

Boss Raptor

I guess you must be right, I could not find any author.

Ascend Charlie

You are definitely right.

The verb baiser used to mean kiss, and is still used unambiguously when directed to "correct" body parts, such as in "baise-main"="hand-kissing", "baiser la joue"="kiss the cheek" or "baiser le front"="kiss the forehead".
but "baiser quelqu'un" definitely has some nasty acceptions (not necessarily sexual).

Molière already used to play on the double entendre in the 17th century "Baiserai-je?"

Binoculars
8th Feb 2004, 17:17
Goodness gwacious! I seem to have had a post banned! Could it be twue?

Mods?

You might have had Bins, but it sounds unlikely. Sure it wasn't finger trubs?

Davaar
9th Feb 2004, 01:28
Madam and Gentlemen:

Thank you for all the help. Very interesting.

Ascend and Boss:

My French is more "workmanlike" than fluent, but I did know there was something ambivalent about "baiser". Still, "baise" was the verb I remembered reading.

Long ago I had a book entitled "Bozziemacoo", a study of swearing in, again I go by memory, Canada. "Bozziemacoo" was itself a testimony to the enrichments of multiculturalism, since it derived from "baisez mon cul"".

We are wandering, perhaps, from the original point, but in fairness to the French , and I want always to be fair to the French, they do not deserve all the credit or blame for the imagery, distressing as it must be to your average PPRuNer of refinement.

I make that qualification because of Bagg's Case (1615) 11 Co. Rep. 93b, 99a, which arose after one James Bagg, a chief burgess of Plymouth, had engaged in unbecoming conduct vis-a-vis the mayor, as by saying "You are a cozening knave", "I will make thy neck crack", and by "turning the hinder part of his body in an inhuman and uncivil manner" towards the mayor and saying "Come and kiss".

Now there, I suppose, it would have been "baiser".

Anyway, Mr Bagg emerged triumphant.

Mac the Knife
9th Feb 2004, 02:10
Mais où sont les baisers d'antan?

Davaar
9th Feb 2004, 02:16
Je pas. Mais les neiges sont aux cheveux.

Bre901
9th Feb 2004, 02:41
Davaar

You see me a bit puzzled

I guess that "Je pas" stands for "je ne sais pas", but what about "aux cheveux" ? a bit pulled by the hairs, if I may say so.

Mac the Knife
9th Feb 2004, 02:44
Ceci me rappelle une chanson paillarde du temps jadis.

"For the hairs on mine are silver,
And the hairs on yours are gold.
Let us put them both together,
Silver hairs among the gold."

Davaar
9th Feb 2004, 03:15
Sorry, Mr Bre. This is a lesson to me for trying my luck in French. I took Dr Knife's allusion to the baisers d'antan to be a play on Villon's "neiges d'antan" from Ballade des Dames du Temps Jadis. I was suggesting that the snows of yesteryear have not disappeared, but in the hoary locks have left their mark. Mine anyway. Come to think of it, not so very different from the theme of The Picture of Dorian Grey.

I think the good Doctor caught it with his silver threads among the gold.

Moving right along with the hair, does anyone know the source of or complete text of the Victorian/Edwardian children's verses:

A little lass with golden hair,
A little lass with brown,
A little lass with raven locks,
Went tripping into town.

It runs on for a few verses and then concludes, as we might expect, with A Moral.

Mac the Knife
9th Feb 2004, 03:51
Well, I can't find it anywhere Davaar. Sounds a bit Browningy (Robert, not EB) bit I can't pin it down.

I hope you won't take it amiss, but the following sprang to mind...

KING LEAR:
Blow, winds, and crack your cheeks! rage! blow!
You cataracts and hurricanes, spout
Till you have drench'd our steeples, drown'd the cocks!
You sulphurous and thought-executing fires,
Vaunt-couriers to oak-cleaving thunderbolts,
Singe my white head! And thou, all-shaking thunder,
Smite flat the thick rotundity o' the world!
Crack nature's moulds, all germens spill at once,
That make ingrateful man!

Fool:
O nuncle, court holy-water in a dry
house is better than this rain-water out o' door.
Good nuncle, in, and ask thy daughters' blessing:
here's a night pities neither wise man nor fool.

Davaar
9th Feb 2004, 04:12
Donnerwetter!

Thank you for looking. I once traced it to Boston, Mass., ca 1890. When the library arranged an inter-library loan, hey had sent the second edition, and the verses I was seeking were in the first edition, or vice versa. The trail died there. The verses did have currency in UK children's story books 1915 or so to 1935 or so. I'll keep looking.

Bre901
9th Feb 2004, 04:46
Well, don't worry Mr Davaar, I am not a French teacher and I do appreciate anyone's efforts to speak/write that difficult language, especially in these days. :ok:

Please do not take any offence from my comments or remarks, I'm just trying to help.

To answer "Mais où sont les neiges d'antan ?", one would probably say "Elles sont dans mes cheveux"

Davaar
9th Feb 2004, 05:17
Merci, mon vieux.

"James Bridie" (O H Mavor) (1888 to 1951) was a Scottish author, playwright, physician, humourist and general good chap. Inter alia, he enjoyed some success on Broadway.

He served through WW1 in France as a medical officer in the RAMC.

He also wrote an autobiography, in which he addressed the difficulties of speaking French and concluded: "I speak French as French should be spoken. If the French choose to speak it in some other way, that is entirely their problem". I have always thought it a rather good rule.

Grandpa
9th Feb 2004, 05:30
They are able to joke about hair from here and there,
Confusing the audience,
While our French comb is used only for "cheveux" and never for "poils"..........................

answer=42
9th Feb 2004, 05:41
I think Gramps is trying to underline the difference between cranial hair (cheveux) and body hair (poils). A hirsute man is thus 'poilu'.

So Gramps, how would you translate 'libre mais pas gratuit' into rosbif?

answer=42

Lemurian
9th Feb 2004, 06:13
answer=42
As I think you refer to a dame,I would say :"Available but not free of charge"
Other better translations of course exist but my command of English is not to that standard.
Davaar
You have a few ladies in your hair!That's because,to Villon,those beauties of yesteryear (Snowy hillocks and all) are the snows which precede the blossoms of to-day's springtime.

answer=42
9th Feb 2004, 06:49
Actually, I was thinking of a car park that is free but not free.

In your example, are you assuming a woman who is 'libre' (free) is 'disponible' (available)? If so, the feminists are going to have a fun time with you, mon pôte.

un de ces 4 (and translate that!)

answer=42

airship
9th Feb 2004, 06:59
Hi Grandpa,

What about all these Anglo-Saxons who appear to have as great a command of the language of Molière, as you have of Shakespeare's? Is there some hope? :p

Bre901
9th Feb 2004, 16:43
Monsieur quarante-deux

what about "see you some of these days" but of course you loose the count of them.

Taildragger55
9th Feb 2004, 17:46
Rather more alarmingly, the poet Roger Browning caused considerable consternation by including the word **** in one of his poems, thinking it an innocent term. The work was Pippa Passes, written in 1841, and now remember for
the line 'God's in His heaven, all's right with the world'. :
Then owls and bats
Cowls and twats,
Monks and nuns, in a cloister's moods,


From Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue"

Browning had seen an older poem where a bishop hoped for a cardinals hat, but all he got was an "old nun's ****", and naturally assumed it was an item of headgear.

Embarrassing, what?

Lemurian
9th Feb 2004, 18:57
answer=42
No,ladies generally think I'm a gentleman.They won't hurt me.
Funny thing is,I was referring (as I thought you were) to a péripathéticienne.A rather passé way of talking about her was a "taxi-girl" again one of these franglais words,probably because when a cab is disponible,you'd have to pay for the ride...:)
Now for your car park,one would simply advertise :"Places disponibles.Payez à la sortie"
As we are on the untranslatable expressions,here are a few,generally followed by a whistle and cat calls :
"Vains dieux,la belle église!"
"Y a du monde au balcon"
Hope it amused you.

Mac the Knife
9th Feb 2004, 23:28
"Y a du monde au balcon" = "Cor! Look at those tits!"

Continuing in this vein, have you ever noticed that French "chansons paillardes" tend to be funny, witty and often have (sometimes quite obscure) literary allusions, while the English equivalents are generally merely lavatorial and boring?

pigboat
10th Feb 2004, 03:33
TG55, here's a little ditty from Rabbie Burns.

Come rede me dame, come tell me, dame,
My dame come tell me truly,
What length o' graith, when weel c'ad hame,
Will sair a woman duly?
The carlin clew her wanton tail,
Her wanton tail sae ready
I learn'd a sang in Annondale,
Nine inch will please a lady.

But for a koontrie c**t like mine,
In sooth, we're nae sae gentle;
We'll take tway thumb-bread to the nine,
And tha' a sonsie pintle;
O leeze me on my Charlie lad
I'll ne'er forget my Charlie!
Tway roarin' handfu's and a daud,
He nidge't it in fu' rarely.

But weary fa' the laithron doup
And may it ne'er kin thrivin!
It's no the length that makes me loup,
But it's the double drivin.
Come nidge me, Tam, come nidge me Tam,
Come nidge me o'er the nyvel!
Come lowse and lug your battering ram,
And thrash him at my gyvel!

Grandpa
10th Feb 2004, 03:51
I will think of that problem of frit and not....My reply is scheduled next week.
I'm somewhat confused at the extent English ppruners are experts on French language (mainly on French slang but with opening on literature too) and I must admit my inability to compete with them on this ground in English.
Could be French hiding behind English names... Good to say so, but I'm also conscious that the true English on this thread are laughing more with my mistakes than with my jokes.
C'est pas d'la tarte..............même avec un dictionnaire!

BahrainLad
10th Feb 2004, 04:35
Isn't 'baise' now used as the French for f***?

As in the contorversial, banned-in-this-country, film Baise-Moi (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008MIZ3/ref=sr_aps_dvd_1_1/026-3212082-3327621)?

Bre901
10th Feb 2004, 04:41
BahrainLad

Yes indeed !

But, contrarily to the F word in English, it still could be used in the presence of little children or on commercial US TV during the superbowl :p , under precise circumstances (see the end of my post on previous page)

Davaar
10th Feb 2004, 04:46
I can't say what it is used for now, but there is a statue by Rodin, late 19th century, called "Le Baiser", which I usually see translated as "The Kiss". The young couple depicted are indeed kissing, not anything else; although as one looks at the sculpture one might certainly think "Not yet".

flapsforty
10th Feb 2004, 04:57
The Kiss (http://www.tigtail.org/TIG/TVM/X2/b.Impressionism/rodin/M/rodin_kiss.1886.jpg)

It always makes me think Mr Rodin knew all about kissing.
There are many things very right about that statue.

tony draper
10th Feb 2004, 05:01
The City Fathers made Rodin chop the willy of that poor chap,troo that is,
The City Fathers then kept it hidden under a tarpaulin in a back room for years.
:uhoh:

Bre901
10th Feb 2004, 05:48
Davaar

The noun is always correct :
"un baiser"="a kiss"

The verb has both meanings :
"baiser quelque chose (la main, l'anneau du pape, les pieds, etc.)"="to kiss something (hand, the pope's ring, feet, etc)"
"baiser (avec quelqu'un)"="to f__k (someone)". "Ils sont en train de baiser dans le foin"="they are f__king in the hay"

[Luckily, the PC brigade is not censoring French :E :E, one can be as rude as one likes, BdM de NdD]

Hope I made it clearer.

They are indeed difficult languages in which nouns are spelled like verbs :uhoh:

Grandpa
10th Feb 2004, 15:31
We all agree "baiser" has THREE meaning:

1- Kiss in old fashioned French
2-Make love in slang (can be used in transitive or untransitive way: "Kevin baise Luke","Luke baise Amanda","Amanda Luke et Kevin baisent ensemble","Ils sont en train de baiser"....
It was not often you could hear the verb "baiser" with a feminine subject , but it's changing like everything.
3-Shaft, or screw in slang too.

Nowadays people use more and more (improperly) the verb embrasser for kissing, maybe because in most of cases when you kiss someone you embrace at same time.

Using "embrasser" makes sure there is no slang drifting from what you mean exactly.

Enjoy your holidays in France, mais couvrez vous! (pas le voile bien sur!)

Taildragger55
10th Feb 2004, 21:20
It's no the length that makes me loup,


At least the good Rabbie did not thank he was being all pious.
Raunchy old [email protected], for a Calivinist customs inspector.

flyblue
10th Feb 2004, 22:59
Flapsy, Rodin's statue represents Paolo and Francesca of Dante's Divina Commedia. Francesca Da Rimini was the daughter of the Lord of Ravenna. She was married for political reasons (around 1270) to Gianciotto, the physically deformed second son of the Lord of Rimini. Francesca and Paolo, Gianciotto's younger brother, fell in love, but the betrayed husband discovered them and killed them both.
The Kiss portrays the moment when Paolo and Francesca surrender to passion, while reading together of Lancelot and Guinevere's kiss.
Even if Dante gives a moralistic reading of the fact (hey, he still was a Middle Ages man, after all ;) ) he cannot help but being fascinated (and maybe scared) of the power of passion (See the poetic worlds he uses to describe it).
But Rodin, he was a man who sculpted flesh and muscles...and all that make them live and vibrate. So his statue is a depiction of the moment of surrender, the moment that is worth perdition and sorrow but that makes your life complete, as all artists know. So what we see is the passion, but also the acceptance of the sorrow that will come, even if with more passiveness from the man than from the woman (and if you know Rodin's life you'll understand why... but that's another story).

You knew I'll jump in the topic, did you Flaps? ;)

Lemurian
11th Feb 2004, 03:55
Fab Flyblue
I knew you were a romantic!
Three lines which never fail to impress the girls in a cockpit,on a dark starry night :

"...Et penchés à l'avant des blanches caravelles,
Ils regardaient monter sous des cieux ignorés
Du fond de l'océan des étoiles nouvelles."

Guaranteed success!
Regards

Bre901
11th Feb 2004, 07:28
flyblue

Just a little pedantic little remark :Rodin did not scuplt flesh and muscles, he modeled them in clay, which is probalbly more sensuous. All the marble carving was made in workshops (copied by "mise aux points"-sorry too late & too lazy to search for the translation), from Rodin's clay models. (and you probably know that already)

This does not diminish Rodin's work at all, and I do admire him, but I would say that his bronzes are more by himself than the marbles, as they are closer to his own hand.

In the early 1900's there was even an artistic movement in the French sculpture promoting direct carving ("taille directe"), in reaction to that.

flyblue
11th Feb 2004, 14:37
It is right. He was also accused of moulding from "live" subjects because of this. I only used the term "sculpted" because he was a sculptor (doh! :p ). At the Musée Rodin in Paris (and at the Musée d'Orsay too, even if in smaller number) there are some of his trial models in plaster (included the "Porte de l'Enfer",The Gates of Hell, starring the "Penseur", The Thinker, that is ol' Dante himself, and the "Hand of God").
Still, even if the bronzes are more powerful and closer to the artist's hand in this case, I tend to prefer the softness of marble...

Musée Rodin (english version) (http://www.musee-rodin.fr/welcome.htm)

Bre901
11th Feb 2004, 15:49
flyblue
Still, even if the bronzes are more powerful and closer to the artist's hand in this case, I tend to prefer the softness of marble...
The sad thing is that you are generally not allowed to touch sculptures in museums :sad:

Maybe you are lucky or rich enough to own some marbles by Rodin ? ;)

This being said, I do agree with you, touching and feeling the sculptures (especially stone and wood) is as important as seeing them.