Multi-pilot helicopters?

[tazzidevil]

I have been looking at LASORS for information of issue of JAA ATPL(H). Reference is made to 'multi-pilot helicopters' or 'helicopters required to be operated by two pilots' but no list of these types or operational requirements is given (at least I can't find one).

Anyone give me any clues? Thanks.

[Aesir]

We´ll the A-332 Super Puma is a multi pilot helicopter for one!

Don´t know about the EH-101 though but its likely, probably also the NH-90.

ohhh and of course the S-61 (Sea King/ Jolly Greeen Giant).

[Helipolarbear]

For your free copy of JAR OPS-3, Section 1 and answers to Multi-Crew Operations and Type go to www.jaa.nl/regulations
All your answers are there + alot more that you didn't know.
Be prepared to be confused!!!!;)

[tazzidevil]

Thanks helip but I can't open that. I've tried the JAA site and can only find multi-pilot FW types.

[Aser]

Try this link http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jarsec1.html

[Aesir]

But it´s the manufacturer that determines if a helicopter requires multi crew or not ehhh..?

Like the B-222 is a single pilot helicopter even if some operators or aviation authorities require it to be operated multi-crew on some type´s of jobs, like perhaps IFR!

But its still single pilot aircraft as required by the manufacturer.

I stand to be corrected, anyway I have never found JAR refrence to which helicopter type´s are Multi-crew and which are not! It say´s so in the RFM.

[ATN]

Dauphin 365 C like S 76 are certified for one pilot in VFR, 2 in IFR, due to AP capabilities and cockpit ergonomics.

[Straight Up Again]

Aesir - The EH-101 was supposed to be single pilot for the RN, but I don't know if they actually use it that way. I've certainly been in the front left seat (as an FTE) of pre-production, RN and RAF variants, and all I did was add a little bit of help with the anti-cols, radio/nav setup, undercarriage etc, the pilot could certainly have handled it all by himself. We normally took it twin pilot though, unless we were short of pilots.

[Woolf]

... I was under the impression that for public transport this also depends on the number of certified passenger seats - but I can't seem to remeber any numbers - 9 maybe?

Woolf

[Hummingfrog]

There is a difference between being operated by 2 crew and being certified as a 2 crew helicopter.

My experience is that the A332L/L2 + S61 are certified for 2 crew operation. The A365N/N2 + S76 are certified for single pilot IFR + VFR but they are operated 2 crew in the N. Sea as a customer requirement. The others I have no knowledge of!!

HF;)

[rotordk]

A little cut and paste for clarification purposes:

JAR-OPS 3.940 Composition of Flight Crew

(a) An operator shall ensure that:
(1) The composition of the flight crew
and the number of flight crew members at designated crew
stations are both in compliance with, and no less than the
minimum specified in, the Helicopter Flight Manual;

(2) The flight crew includes additional flight crew members when
required by the type of operation, and is not reduced below the
number specified in the Operations Manual;

(2) For IFR operations using helicopters with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration [(MAPSC)] of more
than 9: (i) The minimum flight crew is two qualified pilots; and

(ii) The commander holds a valid
Airline Transport Pilot's Licence
(Helicopter) (ATPL(H));
(3) For operations using helicopters
with a maximum approved passenger seating
configuration [(MAPSC)] of more than 19:
(i) The minimum flight crew is
two qualified pilots;
(ii) The commander holds a valid
Airline Transport Pilot's Licence
(Helicopter) (ATPL(H)).
(c) Helicopters not covered by sub-paragraph
(b)(2) and (b)(3) above may be operated by a
single pilot provided that the requirements of
Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.940(c) are satisfied.

[Woolf]

.... beat me to it!!!! :* ;)

Jar-Ops 3 also specifies Min Crew for EMS:

(A) Day flight. The
minimum crew by day shall be one
pilot and one HEMS crew member.
This can be reduced to one pilot
only in exceptional circumstances.

(B) Night flight. The
minimum crew by night shall be
two pilots. However, one pilot and
one HEMS crew member may be
employed in specific geographical
areas defined by the operator in the
Operations Manual to the
satisfaction of the Authority.


Woolf

[USRotor]

hi

me again ;)

so, anyone know where to find, or how is possible to know what are the really multi-pilot helos,

as easly as we can see in Appendiz 1 to JAR-FCL 2.220 , what are the single engine and the multi engine (ok.. this one is easy... is only count how many engines :cool:

i'm asking this, because, with this requirement of multi-pilot helicopter time , people don't know if the type's that have flown (as multi pilot operation) can count ...

:ok: IDEA :
if create a database with all this info for the different helos

regards

[MD900 Explorer]

For starters, anyone who does an atpl/h course must have an instructor.... ergo two pilot helo.....? (from ab initio) (Anyway, what is the difference between doing a cpl/h course and an atpl/ course, apart from in lasors, having to do different ****. Which flying schools offer this atpl course, and after having done all the frozen thoery, still makes you have the frozen atpl course. The CAA are a bunch of two faced so and so's)

What is a "really " multi pilot helo? .... Well in the UK anything IFR is a two pilot helo, so that is all from AS355, A109, AS365, AS332 etc (If you want it to be, but twins mainly).

i'm asking this, because, with this requirement of multi-pilot helicopter time , people don't know if the type's that have flown (as multi pilot operation) can count ...

If you have flown a twin, you would have known about it, most twin people have MCC and CRM and this would count..Whats the question :confused: :confused: Hours is hours without counting type ratings..!!


i'm asking this, because, with this requirement of multi-pilot helicopter time , people don't know if the type's that have flown (as multi pilot operation) can count ...

What are you saying, are helo pilots thick...? Are you saying therefore that a pilot would log BH06 time in the twin column? (Bristows IFR BH06 for example)

So, i put it to you linguists out there..?

:{ :{ :{

MD

[Aesir]

I think what USRotor means is.. can you log as Multi crew time hours flown, for example, in SA-365 Dauphin? Cause its not a multi crew helicopter as required by RFM!

We´ll in JAR land you can! If single pilot helicopter is operated multi crew.
Can´t remember which change in JAR-FCL. But recently there was a change which allows any multi-crew time to be counted as that. Before you could not use hours gained in non-multi crew helicopter for the 500 (or 300) multi crew hours required for full JAR-ATPL.

I know its confusing, but hell thats what the JAR is all about :p

As far as the original question. Where can you find the Multi crew required helicopter types then I don´t think that information is available except in each type´s RFM.

We have now have following types as Multi crew only helicopters:

S-61
AS-332
B-214

Maybe EH-101 & NH-90 as well as some Russian ships.

Types like the S-76 & B-412 are single pilot helicopters sometimes operated by two crew if required by the governing authority, operator or customer! If the RFM manual requires 2 pilots for IFR, then I guess they could be considered as multi-crew helicopters in those operational conditions as specified in the RFM. Its up to the authority to decide.

Anyone with other suggestions for the multi-crew required ships?

[rotordk]

If the flight can only be done with multicrew legally, that would make it a multicrew flight in my book.... :-)
W/regards to instruction flights I have my severe doubts that it would be consider multicrew.

Definition is straight forward (JAR-FCL 2):

(1) 350 hours in multi-pilot operations
in helicopters type certificated for a minimum
of two pilots under IFR in accordance with
FAR/JAR 27 and 29 helicopter category, or
equivalent code; or in helicopters required to
be operated by two pilots under JAR–OPS.

[USRotor]

hi, (again)

MD: sorry i'm not so bright in writing as you are in reading
:sad: and "many" Twin people that i know don't have MCC heli .... (:ok: no hard fillings)

to all the rest, sorry my writting... but you get the point

it's possible, and very common, people bean flying in multi-crew (requirement by the operation/mission) but in a single pilot helo, that meaning that they have multi-crew flight time, but not muilti-pilot helicopter flight time...

Aesir: do you know were is written

We´ll in JAR land you can! If single pilot helicopter is operated multi crew.
Can´t remember which change in JAR-FCL. But recently there was a change which allows any multi-crew time to be counted as that. Before you could not use hours gained in non-multi crew helicopter for the 500 (or 300) multi crew hours required for full JAR-ATPL.

[Aesir]

USRotor

Its JAR-FCL 2.280

Its the regulation given by RotorDK post above.

I know that the fixed wing guy´s had problems before, maybe the change was only for JAR-FCL 1? But pilots flying for example the Dornier Do-228 in multi-crew could not count the time for the 500 hrs required for the issue of full ATPL, because the Dornier is a single pilot aircraft.
This has now been changed.

However the Danes, know how to interpret the JAR´s correctly unlike the other Scandinavian country´s.

They do not require ATPL theory for multi-crew helicopter type ratings, because JAR-FCL 2.285 clearly states that the applicant for ATPL who has CPL and valid IR has satisfied the knowledge requirements for the issue of ATPL.

Other Scandinavian countries have some problems with accepting this, but it´s pretty clear to me.

[rotordk]

USrotor said: "it's possible, and very common, people bean flying in multi-crew (requirement by the operation/mission) but in a single pilot helo, that meaning that they have multi-crew flight time, but not muilti-pilot helicopter flight time..."

If you required multipilot (look at JAR-OPS 3.940) for the operation in say, a S76, flying IFR, it's multipilot time, otherwise the flight wouldn't happen. Multicrew is geared towards SAR/EMS.
So you can still fly a S76 singel pilot VFR all day long, but not IFR.....hybrid x-over due to JAR regs, and is implementet with the north sea enviroment for all flights with the S76.

[Bomber ARIS]

MD900
I have to say that most UK twin drivers do NOT have MCC and that although UK IFR helos are twin-engined there is plenty of SPIFR going on.

[MD900 Explorer]

Bomber,

Well thats the UK for you. Just saying what i have experienced, and that is not in the UK but Scandinavia. :confused:

My experience has shown that without the MCC and CRM, working in a multi crew enviorment for the purposes of IFR flying has not been possible.

I don't want to hold this thread up, by getting side tracked in this discussion, but a valid pointer. :ok:

MD

[g.jongeneelen]

When you are talking about the crew composition here, you are talking about civilian rules like JAR.

As far as i could see all the mentioned helicopters in this topic have a civilian version that is in that case obviously civil certified.

The NH90 however does NOT have a civilian version (yet).

I myself am working in the NH90 program, and the NH90 is contracted to be a single pilot aircraft. Whether or not it can be flown single pilot is stated in the Flight Manual. For instance the Lynx Flight Manual states as minimum crew one pilot in the righthand seat.

Because the qualification and certification of the NH90 is not finished yet, there is no 100% garantee the NH90 will be certified single pilot according to civilian rules, but because the Ministry of Defence is not always following the civilian rules (exception) the plan in for instance The Netherlands is to fly the NH90 single pilot.

A little addition to the previous:

Also for SAR and IFR single pilot operations are possible. The Royal Netherlands Navy (RNLN) is flying the Lynx both IFR and for SAR with only one pilot if nessecary.

I do need to mention that training for this kind of operations is very important. RNLN pilots spend a lot of time in a Full Mission Flight Trainer and in actual flight to be ready for this way of operating.

[rotordk]

So your saying they will change the rules in JAR for IFR and allow 10+ passengers be flown single pilot IFR ?

[Mars]

It would be unlikely that JAR-OPS 3 would change in that respect.

[rotordk]

I agree, but I have to ask g.jongeneelen the question due to his statement. I do suspect he is not involved with any civilian operation.

[g.jongeneelen]

:O I was not saying we are going to change the JAR OPS, and would not even want to. My opinion is that there is probably a very good reason for the JAA to do things this way.

And rotordk, indeed i was NOT talking about civilian operations. I know that if you're flying under JAR OPS this will not be possible. This is why, if the NH90 ever gets a JAR certification, probably it will not be possible to fly it IFR under JAR OPS, single pilot.

But most probably, for military users, the flight manual will allow single pilot operations under IFR.