One For All

[Rudi Zarsoff]

Isn’t it time that the commercial pilots in this country join forces and fight the common enemy that aims to denigrate and lower the working pay and conditions of this profession? Pilots in this country have not been adequately represented for many years. If QF pilots are serious about preserving their pay and conditions, wouldn’t it be wise to include all professional pilots in their association and combine to “raise the bar” across the board?
An influential organization such as this would also have some political clout when the regulator decides to change the rules that subsequently decrease the amount of protection that we enjoy going about our daily toil.
Surely the livery of the aircraft shouldn’t determine what conditions you are employed under!

[Whiskery]

Good idea Rudi - START HERE ! (www.afap.org.au)

[DJ737]

Why is it that only seems to be the QF pilots that are worried about this pay and conditions thingy.....your conditions are not under threat, you may not have a job in the future (unless you bang the rocks together and join the rest of us in the 21st century) when Jetstar eventually take over all domestic ops, but while you are still employed by QF your conditions are safe.

DJ737

The Roo Rooter and now Crapping on the Koru :E :ok:

[Next Generation]

Isn’t it time that the commercial pilots in this country join forces and fight the common enemy that aims to denigrate and lower the working pay and conditions of this profession?

Maybe not all commercial pilots are unhappy with their pay and conditions........

I am quite happy thanks.

NG

[Capn Bloggs]

Well Well Well: get a job in a nice shiny spiv-machine and all the (new) boys are happy. If only you knew what was happening. We are all being shafted big time, you all have the AFAP and fallen comrades to thank for the salaries you are on today: without them, you'd be on monkeys wages. In a few years, you WILL be on monkeys wages unless you fight to maintain the standard!
How come a general manager blunt, with a under-waterbasket-weaving degree largely funded by us the taxpayer, responsible for no-one, earn as much as us, or have the audacity to tell us we get paid to much? Yeh, I'm only in charge of $40m of machinery, 140 lives and get put thru the hoop every 6 months! "Yeh, I'll take $120k for flying an A320 on 12 overnights a month, no allowances!".
I suggest you young sprogs take a good long hard viagra look at yourself and reposition yourselves on the food chain: you're worth AT LEAST as much as you're getting now, if not more!

[Next Generation]

Capn Bloggs

As I am not impotent, I don't require the use of viagra.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, if you don't like the job, F@ck off and let someone else who still enjoys flying do it.

It is easy to see why many have the perception of pilots having large watches and small dicks.

Stop pretending that pilots are the greatest gift to the universe, and just enjoy what you do.

Your type really bore me with your whinging about how wonderful you are, and what you are really worth. And why the bloody comparison with wages between other jobs. You wouldn't want to do those other jobs, so don't bother comparing wages.

[Keg]

NG, I've got to say, you deserve every cent you get! :rolleyes:

Gee, I was nearly going to get really nasty then but I 'backspaced' it all out. Must have been Church Saturday morning.

The problem with letting someone who enjoys flying NG is that someone will ALWAYS enjoy it for less than you. It's happened in GA for years and it's happening now in the majors. I hope you keep enjoying the flying. It may be all you have to compensate for the fact that you're away from home on an overnight about 150 times a year more than the average Dad/husband/life partner and missing out on kids birthdays, Christmas, etc, etc.

Yes I enjoy my job but enjoyment and an equitable pay packet are NOT mutually exclusive issues. Can't wait to see you accept $25K as a 737 (or 744) F/O! :rolleyes:

[Next Generation]

Keg

Interesting how whenever I direct a comment to Capn Bloggs, you reply!!!!!!!!

No amount of money compensates for being away from home. An extra $ 200,000 a year wouldn't compensate for it.

However, I knew what was involved before I took the job, and all things considered, the lifestyle is pretty good.

If I am ever earning $ 25 k per year, then I will concede your point, but for the forseeable future, my wages are more than satisfactory.

Could you please substantiate your claim that wages for a 737 or 747 F/O will go as low as $ 25 k ??

[Keg]

NG, is the implication that I'm Cap'n Bloggs? If not, then disregard the following statement. I once started a second handle once large numbers of people in QF worked out who 'Keg' was. I realised within about two posts that it wasn't going to work. Firstly, people knew 'Keg' but the new handle had no cred. I've always posted as I'd be prepared to say to someone's face and believe me, I wouldn't bother creating another pseudonym just to wind somone up.

You'll also note that I normally post after you so perhaps I'm you and arguing with myself (it certainly wouldn't be the first time somone has done that on PPRUNE! :D ). Perhaps it's just because I disagree with your point of view or the way you conduct yourself on here!

BTW, $25K It's an extreme example used to illustrate a point. That's pretty different to your crew room circular 'how good are we' comments on the other thread that you're alluding to.

[Next Generation]

Can you just answer the question?

[bonvol]

In 1989 an F28 First Officer grossed around $68,000 and a Capt around $110,000 a year. Some got a bit more and some got a bit less. I dont think the F100 Alliance drivers get any more now do they?

You do the maths and work out how far the salaries have been wound back. If the companies advertised $25K salaries for a 737 F/O these days every wannabe in GA would most likely apply. Its better than being a casual instructor and delivering pizzas by night.

The companies, much encouraged by the response would only offer 20K next ad! A somewhat overstated argument I admit but if pilots always accept the terms and conditions offered then beancounters tend to want to see where the boundary is.

A "gradual" eroding of T & C's will establish where this boundary is, and that is what we are seeing now. Management also use the fact that Australia is an attractive place to live and people will do it for less just to work here. You dont see too many QF mainline guys nicking off O/S to chase the money.

It's got a way to go yet I reckon and with the disparate nature of pilot unity in this country we can only see further erosions.

Ah, but we go over old ground. Its all been done to death in the archives of this site. Theres always someone who will do the job for less be it GA or Airlines.

[Next Generation]

bonvol

If the companies advertised $25K salaries for a 737 F/O

And it's a bloody big IF.


All you doomsayers quote figures of pilots earning $ 25 k and such, as though this is the true state of play. You never provide evidence as to how these fanciful figures are arrived at, and we are all supposed to run scared that the big bad management monsters are going to destroy our lives.

I earn a ****load more than $ 25 k, I will continue to earn a ****load more than $ 25 k, and the next lot of keen, enthusiastic pilots to join the low cost airlines will also earn a ****load more then $ 25 k.

[bonvol]

NG thats not what I alluded to.

Disregard the 25K, did you not comprehend the bit about an overstated argument? Do you comprehend anything?

Use any figure less than what the incumbents earn now and the result will be the same.

[Capn Bloggs]

NG,
I'll answer the question for you.
Keg,
Interesting how whenever I direct a comment to Capn Bloggs, you reply!!!!!!!!

Funny that: this is the FIRST post ever of mine that Keg has replied to...

If you're so sure salaries won't go to $25k, please explain why not, given that EVERY contract that has been negotiated recently has seen them reduce reduce?!

Arrhh, I have it! NG is really a new-age General Manager Human Resources, smitten with the politics of envy! "I can't stand seeing other people REALLY enjoy their job!".

I earn a ****load more than $ 25 k, I will continue to earn a ****load more than $ 25 k, and the next lot of keen, enthusiastic pilots to join the low cost airlines will also earn a ****load more then $ 25 k.
But it will be less than you, on the slippery slope...

[bonvol]

By jingoes I think you are onto something here Bloggs.

Doesnt it say somewhere on this site that it is the most widely read forum by management :D

[The Counter]

NG you sound like a young guy with a new girlfriend, it's all great in the beginning but after a while it becomes routine, I think your at the beginning stage and love has blinded you to what is happening to our wounderful industry.

I'm sure the money is better than your G.A job and your probably
feeling secure for the first time in your carreer or did Mum and Dad pay for the 737NG endorsement and your a spoiled brat, either way mate you need to work with us so your son or daughter want look at you in the future and say Dad why didn't you stand up to the bastard years ago so we had a future in the industry.

Capn Bloggs, Keg there will always be w#%kers like NG in the industry, he obviously doesn't have kids or a morgage and isn't old enough to understand the real financial pressures of life. I suppose thats what mum and dad are there for.

How do we get this union thing happening ? We must all committed as one to stand up to the bastards now and not be still talking about it in a years time.

[Chilli]

Does AFAP have the support of the majority of pilots ? If not why not? I ask the question as I'm new to GA and can't understand why pilots fight amongst them selves instead of standing together for something that will benefit everyone. Why does a pilots wage go down when the majority of peoples wages go up, At this rate by the time I get a chance to apply to the airlines there will be super low cost carriers and there just will not be a future in it no matter how much you love doing it.

[bonvol]

The AFAP had their teeth pulled in 89' and still have a rather larger damages claim acting as the sword of damocles. Step out of line too much and the horsehair may snap.

AIPA is a potential training ground for QF management based on the career paths of previous presidents .

What we need is a new Dick Holt to provide some leadership and get the professional pilots of this country back in the drivers seat. Maybe his son can do it. Time will tell.

[Keg]

NG, in close numbers, DJ 737 F/Os are earning what an F-28 F/O earned in '89.

I reckon that if we'd had the same discussion in '89 (before the dispute) and said that IF in fifteen years time, someone offered $70K for a 737 F/O job you'd be killed in the rush, someone would have responded with 'thats a bloody big IF'. Do you get it yet?

See, I prefer to take the 'big picture' view rather than nit pick over individual words when they are illustrating the big picture. Again, as with the other thread, you change the focus of the discussion. We're talking about big picture stuff here but it appears pretty obvious it's beyond you.

I know understand why people get so hung up when they come across the few idiots in QF. You shudder and think that if the rest of the crew are like that then..... Got to say NG, that if you work for DJ (which you've never actually discouraged the perception of), then I've just had the same moment. Needless to say, I'm pretty sure not many of the rest of the DJ crew are as narrow minded as you have portrayed in here over the last couple of days.

Bloggs, on one other thread where NG disagreed with you I also responded. He's searching for a reason that everyone disagrees with him and the best he can come up with is that we are all the same pseudonym. :D :p :}