Aerostar ex YBCG

[TopperHarley]

G'day guys,

Any news on the Aerostar that went down off Byron ??

Horrible news, condolences to all involved.

Hope its not another Aysmmetric training accident. When teh training is killing more people than the emergency we have to look at ourselves.

[Jamair]

:( Just a quickie segment on last nights late news that the search has been cancelled......anyone know the rego / crew?

[PILOTGAL]

Use your mouse key and scroll down. There's a thread here already entitled ' Aerostar Missing off Cooly'

[gaunty]

TopperHarley

Distressingly so! :(

There have been many threads and much discussion on this issue, but it still keeps happening.

CASA need to have another real hard look at their requirements and the instructors need to think hard about to what they are exposing themselves and their students.

[TopperHarley]

Not wanting to second guess the causes of this accident, just general discussion.......

Having never flown an Aerostar, but having stared at their wing in amazment many a time, I wouldnt imagine them to be much fun in an asymmetric situation (especially slow).

I have a reasonable amount of asymmetric training experience, im by no means an expert but once a few fundamentals of asymmetric CONTROL are understood, i see no reason why asymmetric training shouldnt be relatively trouble free.

I have done many many initial ME conversions and have never even come close to having a drama. TOUCHWOOD !. Its really not rocket science. I have though come across many people in the industry who are very nieve regarding asymmetric flight (instructors and 'experienced' commercial pilots).

Why are experienced, professional instructors (in at least two of the recent accidents) ending up in the dirt ??

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

I am not saying that the following is the case in the Cooly accident, but plenty of people take unnecessary risks during training flights. The more they get away with it, the less of a risk it seems to be, until..........................gotcha.

[oicur12]

I dont know if this was an initial twin rating or a conversion - in fact we dont even know what happened or if it was caused by assy training.

But I have always found it crazy that with each piston twin rating - 402 to navajo to baron etc, requires assy flying. the drills are really the same and the handling is so similar why exspose yourself every time you get a piston ticket.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Topper,

Be carefull equating lots of hours instructing with 'very experienced pilots'.

I've got a fair few hours in aerostars and have endorsed two pilots onto type. IMHO using an aerostar as a ME training machine (purely 'cause old 600s are relatively cheap to aquire) is lunacy...they are NOT a forgiving machine!!

Chuck.

[Spotlight]

Chimbu

I agree fully. If it turns out that this was a VMC demo!

Oicur

It is necesssary, obviously. It may even save your friends lives some sunny day.

Using Aerostars, well the reult is predictable.

[tinpis]

Aerostar is one little plane I know nothing of.
What nasty things does it do?
There was one lost at night in the NT a little while back.

[Tinstaafl]

Quite a fast Vyse: ~113kts. High wing loading & bites a bit. Needs a fair bit of runway.

Nice aeroplane to fly, if a bit cramped. I like them.

[Daniel Foster]

This accident has been a terrible shock for everyone connected with the training school. Compounding the shock is the fact that no one has any idea about the cause at this stage. There just aren’t enough facts. We have been is close contact with ATSB and the NSW Police who are investigating the circumstances. ATSB have gone out of their way to keep us informed and have briefed all staff and students on the known facts. I find it hard to believe that anyone sitting in front of a computer posting on PPrune has any more knowledge about what happened than we do.

I can understand the need to talk about these accidents and have seen it numerous times before on PPrune without taking much notice. However when it happens to someone you are mates with it changes your perspective. The families are very upset about the speculation. They have enough in front of them without reading and hearing uninformed speculation about their loved ones. I would ask if you want to discuss the accident you close this thread and start another one in a couple of weeks under a generic title on multi engine training. Better still wait until ATSB complete their report (although I am realistic about anyone waiting this long).

If anyone wants to find out the facts as they are known please email me on [email protected] or call me on 0417 797 833.

Chimbu and Spotlight, I suggest you take the time to re-read your posts and understand the offence caused by your glib remarks.

[Spad]

oicur12, you and I have traded barbs in the past here on Pprune over the events of 1989, with you very much singing the praises of the ‘realistic went backs’ and me just as outspoken for the ‘greedy, self-serving, fat-cat stay-outs’ of that time. Many people who were not involved in the rather seminal events of that year have expressed how ‘bored’ they were with that particular debate. However, with your comment But I have always found it crazy that with each piston twin rating - 402 to navajo to baron etc, requires assy flying. the drills are really the same and the handling is so similar why exspose yourself every time you get a piston ticket.you have shown everyone in startling - indeed mind boggling - detail, the new standard of professional aviator who was introduced into the ranks of the two major domestic carriers in 1989-90.

I’m still shaking my head in absolute wonder that anyone with more than five minutes of twin time could make such a statement. For someone who has actually carried paying passengers in a regular public transport aircraft to make it frankly astounds me.

But then, I was brought up in the old ‘wasteful, feather-bedded’ system that was thrown out in 89, to be replaced by lean, mean aviators with their eyes firmly fixed on their employers’ all-important bottom line. Aviators like yourself, willing to cut out all that unnecessary featherbedding like asy checkouts on a new type.

I’ve flown more hours conducting asy checks than I care to remember, and (I suspect like 99.9% of instructors on twins), on occasion, had the odd thing occur from out of left field which, but for the grace of God and a modicum of good luck, could have seen me and my trainee as statistics or the subject of a thread like this on Pprune. I knew John Woodman and had nothing but the highest respect for him, both personally and professionally, so I’m not about to comment on this particular tragedy – I’ll leave that for the BASI investigators – but I will say, if he and his student were killed conducting a VMCA demonstration, (as one poster above has alleged – but how could he know?), they died conducting an vitally important and utterly necessary part of an endorsement on to any type.

Contrary to oicur12’s, ideas on the issue, most aviators would agree that every pilot should be familiar with the handling characteristics as it approaches VMCA of each aircraft type he flys, and he should see those characteristics demonstrated in the controlled, well briefed environment of an endorsement, not for the first time when it happens on some dark night ‘in anger’.

With no apologies for ‘hijacking’ the thread (as I am sure to be accused by the ‘new lean mean’ brigade).

[Spotlight]

Daniel, I do apologise if offence is taken at what I agree may appear to be a harsh posting.

Certainly the cause of the accident may have been one that could occur regardless of type, however as you know, amongst aviators opinions are expressed in the aftermath of tragic accidents. Oftentimes with a sardonic note when one has a considered opinion gained through experience.

It has been reported that the PA 60 was being used for advanced training, and indeed there is a lot to recommend the aircraft for this role however my particular 'sardonic' view is that it is not a machine on which to explore the bounderies of assymetrics beyond what is necessary for endorsement and recurrency. Was this the case? I don't know.

I recall, as I suspect Chimbu may, the death of two friends in an Aerostar enroute BK-CAH in 1986 as a salutary lesson that the aeroplane bites severely. Having flown the type and incidently, seen 1000 hour guys shaking with nerves after getting out of it I do have a view as to its suitability as a trainer which I strongly suspect will be prevalent in the industry for some time to come.

My sincere condolences to the families involved. Unfortunately dear people the last moments will most likely never satisfactorily be known. What is known is that they passed on doing what they had a passion for and worked hard at. They understood life and its possibilities more than many do.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Daniel,

Appologies as I should have made it more clear that my comments were NOT aimed at this particular accident or these particular individuals.

I was talking generally about the problems I feel are manifest in most GA twin training in Australia in the last 10-15+ years.

I have lost WAY too many mates over the years to bother with hindsight accident comment...all of them thought they were doing the best they could in their last moments.

If my comments upset friends and family of the pilots involved in this accident please appologise on my behalf.

In the above context I stand by my earlier post.

Chuck.

[Capt Fathom]

ALL aeroplanes can bite!

[always inverted]

true, but given...

failure at 5 knts above blue line in a p68, pa31 and pa60, I think that you would have more time to react in either of the first 2, the aerostar as an aircraft is fast, a delight to fly and is comfortable, but one that you must treat with respect. Largely due to the lack of wings.
Don't know about the 402, 421 etc but you need to be flying regularly and/or have regular recurrent training in the aerostar due to the systems operation, everything is either hydraulic or electric.
As for simulated failures, it is quite nice in that the rudder is very effective and you can still maintain 140-150 knots with the inoperative engine set to 0 thrust.

Also my condolences to the families of those on board.

[imabell]

i don't fly aeroplanes any more and have limited time in them but i have an engineer pilot friend who has quite a few hours in aerostars and he told me of one instance when the elevator trim in the aeroplane he and a friend were flying started an uncommanded increase in nose up attitude.

they could not disengage the trim (electric) and it took both pilots every effort to keep the aircraft from stalling. they got it on the ground with great effort and copious ammounts of adrenalin.

the systems were obviously thoroughly checked and tested by this engineer and others but no reason for this event was found. it was put down to a malfunction of the autopilot (perhaps).

the aircraft went back into service and a couple of months later a similar but not as scary event took place involving the elevator trim actuator.

does any one know of similar instances in this type.

the 6000' ft per minute descent rate of this recent accident would indicate that something drastic had occurred, is this type prone to problems when assymetric?

it is a sad and worrying day when two experienced, professional pilots come to grief conducting what seems to be a normal training exercise.

[High Altitude]

R.I.P.

Sounds similar to the Aerostar that went in near YPKT a few years ago.

[always inverted]

had the trim crap out in the climb, was a cruise climb tho,- so not such a large change in attitude, still a prick having no manual trim. a/p coped well and about 15 min later the trim started working again. Seem'd to have a doggy swtch.