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Wirraway
30th Jan 2004, 01:09
Fri "The Australian"

Warning on airliner
By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
January 30, 2004

AIR safety investigators yesterday renewed safety warnings about Saab 340 airliners after an inquiry into a near disaster over Bathurst confirmed that the plane had pitched downwards without warning and almost rolled on its back.

The pilots regained control only 112ft above the ground and went on to land the plane safely.

Ironman Grant Kenny, who is himself a pilot and was among the 32 passengers and crew on the Hazelton Airlines flight from Sydney on July 28, 2002, later described the incident as "one of the most frightening moments of my life".

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is worried that systems intended to warn pilots of a pending aerodynamic stall - where the aircraft no longer has enough lift to keep flying - failed to activate because of icy weather.

"The investigation found that it is possible for the (Saab 340) aircraft to stall prior to the activation of the stall warning if the aircraft has accumulated ice on the wings," its report says. The ATSB yesterday urged the manufacturer to modify the stall warning system of the worldwide fleet of Saab aircraft.

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The Messiah
30th Jan 2004, 08:02
What a load of bollocks!

In that case every aircraft ever made needs its stall warning system modified.

There is nothing wrong with the SAAB as the case in point was simply no-one minding the shop, and who cares what Grant Kenny said.

Kanga767
30th Jan 2004, 08:19
Easy there Tiger, Grant Kenny might be in charge of CASA in a few years...........

Capt Claret
30th Jan 2004, 10:43
I'd be interested to know what info you have that the ATSB doesn't?

Speeds high
30th Jan 2004, 11:36
Do any companies out there increase landing ref speed if landing with ice on the wings, and if so by how much?

Torres
30th Jan 2004, 12:41
"The investigation found that it is possible for the (Saab 340) aircraft to stall prior to the activation of the stall warning if the aircraft has accumulated ice on the wings," its report says. The ATSB yesterday urged the manufacturer to modify the stall warning system of the worldwide fleet of Saab aircraft."

You may be The Messiah ....... but on things aviating, the ATSB may be more authorative........

The Messiah
30th Jan 2004, 16:16
More than likely all aircraft would stall before the stall warning as ice changes the shape of the wing and therefore the critical angle would more than likely change.

Funny that they can operate SAAB's in North America and Canada and Sweden etc yet in Oz people stuff it up going into Bathurst and somehow its the aeroplanes fault.:confused:

Wing Root
30th Jan 2004, 16:43
Messiah,

I recomend you read the ATSB report. I know that aircraft perform very differently when ice starts disrupting that nice airflow over wings and other surfaces but I think in this case the SAAB is lacking when it comes to stall warnings in icing. Those Canadian registered SAABs you mention actually have a modification to the stall warning system.

from page 20...
....the Saab 340 aircraft can suffer from an aerodynamic stall while operating in
icing conditions, without the required warnings being provided to flight crew. This
problem had been highlighted when the aircraft was introduced to operations in Canada
and as a result a modified stall warning system was mandated for Canadian registered Saab
340 aircraft. ..... An added input has been
provided to the stall warning computers ....
controlled by the activation of an ICE SPEED switch.
Activation of the ICE SPEED switch causes the stall warning computer to operate on lower
triggering levels for the stall warning and the stall identification.


The ATSB have done a great job with that report. :ok:

The Messiah
30th Jan 2004, 17:37
Yes it is a decent report but the data from the FDR on the SAAB in question is most alarming regarding the airspeed they allowed the aeroplane to come back to. (from memory bad as it is somewhere below 130kts)

This was beaten to death some time ago and as I said then, you can't guard against downright stupidity. I don't agree that the aeroplane did anything you wouldn't expect it to do in that situation.