Oxford App

[jam123]

Hi

Just wondering if anyone who has done the tests can give me any feedback.

What kind of questions do they ask etc and the difficulty.

Cheers

Jam:confused:

[martin_EGTK]

I'm into week 7 of my APP course and am loving it and hating it at the same time.....a word of warning, be prepared for 15 hour days!! Anyway, the tests very much depend on your own level of skill and interlect.

Stage 1, the compass test was the hardest part for myself, I found the maths quite challenging, the physics wasn't great either! If you brush up on those two subjects you should be fine.

Stage 2, was the team building and interviews, just be yourself, bring others into conversations and remain enthusiastic and you'll be fine.

Stage 3, Sim Check, if you got past stage 1's hand eye coordination and multi-task you should be fine with this stage.

Good luck, hope to see you here in the near future!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Jam. You've taken every possible opportunity on every thread for the last 4 weeks or so to ask questions about Oxford in general and the integrated/app gubbins in particular.

Can I ask you what research you've done into other schools and ways of acheiving a licence? I'm asking because you seem to be totally fixated on an single option which has a poor to non existent rate of return on a very significant extra outlay.

What is the story??

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[jam123]

Rob,

I am a bit confused. I have done much research for many years into the usual (integraed/modular/cabair, oat, bae etc etc) but was not in the position to start due to financial reasons. However, now that i am, i just wanted some latest information on a few things. I am a bit baffled as to why you have picked out MY posts and commented on them?

Also, could you please explain yourself with this

I'm asking because you seem to be totally fixated on an single option which has a poor to non existent rate of return on a very significant extra outlay.

with all due respect, I'm not sure what you are trying to get at??

Jam

[PPRuNe Towers]

Jam,

I can only go on what I read from you. In 4 weeks on the site you seem to have discussed your age initially and then just concentrated on Oxford with a passing glance at Jerez.

Reality may well be different but you give the impression of only thinking and asking about an integrated Oxford course. You may have exhaustively researched many ways to a licence but this doesn't come through in your posts - thus my concern.

Rob

[jam123]

Rob

Well, i must say you have cracked it !

I am planning to do an integrated course at oxford or Jerez.:D

Is that:ok: with you?

Jam

[Screwballs]

Well Rob I can see what you're attempting to do for jam here but it would seem it is going over his head.

I am also thinking about going to OAT and from all the glossy bits of paper they sent me it looks like a good place to get your fATPL. But you disagree?

I'm asking because you seem to be totally fixated on an single option which has a poor to non existent rate of return on a very significant extra outlay.

Can you say more about this poor to non existent rate of return?

Thanks,
Screwballs

[TRon]

I think what Rob is trying to get at here is that the Oxford APP scheme, as good as it may seem and may be, is not the only course on the market.

You seem to be consistently wanting people's opinions on an integrated course to bolster the doubts you are having about spending 70k + Living Expenses on your licence.

If you are having doubts about something the best thing in most peoples eyes is to surround themselves with positivity, I would be careful about pulling the wool over your own eyes as well as having a glossy and slick marketing team do it for you as well.

Rob is merely trying to point your eyes objectively at other options.

Firstly you need to ask yourself why Integrated is for you. So long as you plan correctly, and by that I mean making sure the next stage of your training is booked before the next is finished so there arent too many significant gaps modular is still a great option.

Secondly if you are doing this in the vain hope that Integrated will increase your potential for getting a job then I would be very cautious, as well as Oxford's 'pledge' to you as APP Graduates.

I know we are all trying to get head and shoulders above the rest and trying to make ourselves more marketable, but if that really is your motivation Modular can be done in the same time, you get more hours and you can pay for a type rating afterwards and still have some change left over from the cost of an Integrated course.

For some, obviously the structured element of integrated coupled with the fact you are spoon fed through each stage, right up to them filling out your licence application for you is the selling point, but for the extra 30k now, I cant see its benefit.

There is now also the option of doing your FAA Licences in America and Converting them to JAR over here or there, for about the same money, and you can fly an N Registered aircraft P2 in the UK without a Type rating, but then I guess you knew that!

It's true to say 10 years ago Integrated was looked upon far more favourably than the old CAA 'Self Improver' Route but now Modular is the way it is the gap has filled and finally recruiters have realised this, although BA Still maintain their CAP509 only low hours policy, but the chance of getting picked up by them ab initio are next to zilcho, as there will be thousands of qualified, experienced pilots knocking on their doors when they finally open!

I dont think Rob was trying to humour you, just trying to open your eyes to the myriad of other options open to you. Often it is easier to take the 'easy' and well trodden path, when the back route might be the quickest and the most fun (at least thats what I tell my girlfriend every night......)

Seriously though, check out your options and take all marketing mumbo with a kilo of salt, at the end of the day they are selling the same blue book and the same dream...You are still gonna have to pick up the phone and market yourself when you are done. If there were stats for who is getting hired at the moment low hours I bet you would see it is about 50/50 Modular/Integrated and Oxford's stats would be good simply because they pump out so many people a year compared to other places.

Research schools well by all means, almost everyone here will try and help, especially Rob, Danny and the rest of the guys just dont throw it back in people's faces when they dont tell you what you want to hear.

And yes I went to Oxford!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Tron sums it up pretty well,

Specifically for Jam - I saw the combination of your present job, age and a possible lack of confidence regarding academics. You'll note I did bother to read every post you've ever made before offering my opinion.

This all screams modular to me. Distance learning while still earning a full wage and vacations for brush ups and exams. Handholding all the way academically if you chose the right school rather than sitting in a room of thrusting young bucks and buckettes showing off just how recently they were doing hard sums.

Once the exams are out of the way you'll have had loads of time to check out leave of absence etc to do the flying - you've always got something in your back pocket and a way of boosting funds as and when you hit the hiccup we all do. For me it was 3 winter months spent waiting for a GFT booking, CAA examiner and legal weather to coincide.

These tarted up courses are total bollocks unless you are contracted from the beginning to enter an specified airline.

These courses are a pathetic attempt to cream more turnover to keep the sims and glossy marketing ticking over till the good times return. You are subsidising departments that cannot pay for themselves - is that clear enough for you???


Said marketing people have to rely on back up on the efficacy of integrated plus bolt on course and boot spoiler from companies who have never recruited low houred people and never will. Danny and I would prefer lethal injection to the electric chair. That is a preference - we have no intention to ever take up that preference. The marketing material is full of such mind numbing cant and not one of them has dared come on this site and defend themselves.

Keen readers will have noted these points have still not been rebutted after I brought them up a month ago.

Danny and I will be making every attempt to do this loudly and in public at any of the cozy little conferences they all inhabit. We will publicly shame those trying to get you to spend far more than you need to.

The savage lack of experienced people is feeding back through the system now - you should have noted by now the increase in interviewing going on.

As to this query:

Can you say more about this poor to non existent rate of return?


I don't have to tell you a thing - the marketing machine will make a point of e-mailing anyone and everyone if a course graduate has managed to tie their shoelaces that morning. The thread on follow up at Oxford sadly tells you everything you need to know.

Other than that carry on you chaps - your money and you can do whatever you like. We do however reserve the right to make our views clear seeing as myself, the Welshman and Scroggs are genuine working line guys, done all the licences and, most importantly, don't make a penny from any wannabee anywhere in the world.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[jam123]

Thanks Rob,

I have certainly taken all your points onboard, and i appreciate your advise;)

jam

[African Drunk]

Does anyone know a person who has failed APP tests?

[George Foreman]

Early last summer I pitched up at Kidlington to have a look around the UK´s highest profile FTO to check out both their modular and integrated courses.

Poor timing and work commitments meant that I hadn´t been able to arrange to do the Aptitudes at Gapan. At the time Oxford´s marketing people were in regular contact and they made me a very competitive offer for what seemed a fairly comprehensive evaluation over 3 days. At that stage I just needed to know whether I´ve got what it takes.

It was an enjoyable, fairly relaxed few days, the best bit for me being the FNPTII sim .. quite an interesting, challenging bit of instrument work (for a PPL), mainly to test your scan, with some unusual attitude recovery and a few mental distractions thrown in. I really, really enjoyed it; the best value flight training I´ve had to date!

Anyway, to answer your question, one guy (of 6) was told (quite graciously I understand) that he might not be cut out for the training and they did discourage him from applying for the APP. Evidently this had happened previously, but it was quite rare.

As expected they do listen quite attentively to your reply to the funding question, and are quick to recommend that you talk to the nice man at HSBC Kidlington so as to secure all the requisite funding before you commit.

[gomez]

On my APP selection course, I think 1 or 2 guys failed out of the 6 of us. The course was very worthwhile. I really enjoyed the sim.
You get some very thorough feedback which will help you whatever you decide to do. Im still not absolutely convinced by the APP course despite passing selection for it.

[Regis Potter]

It's also worth noting that some selected APP students have failed to meet the grade in groundschool & flying.

[K2SkyRider]

I got the impression that Airlines recruiting low hours FOs wont touch grads that don't pass everything 1st time. Anyone care to agree/disagree?

Are Oxford licenced as a TRTO (the link via the CAA website is broken)? Their MCC includes 40hrs in the 737 sim, but apparently they are not able to upgrade the course to a type rating. Bummer.

K2

[BillieBob]

Oxford are not approved as a TRTO. Not much point really as their 'sim' is not actually a Simulator at all but a Flight Navigation Procedures Trainer (FNPT II) so they wouldn't be able to do a type rating on it anyway.

Some may question the value of 40 hours in a FNPT when the MCC course is only 20 hours.

[Send Clowns]

Get a first-series pass on the IR, SkyRider, preferably first time. Pilots recruit pilots, all pilots hate groundschool, so they don't place too much emphasis there!

This all came from an airline recruiter from the size of company taking recent graduates.