Jetstar operating A320 Deathstar set themselves to go supernova in the medium term.

[Eastwest Loco]

Obviously the wallies (including the infamous Da Wally) have learned not a solitary thing in the setup of Jetstar.

Travel Week this week touts that Agents will be able to book Jetstar for clients for a $10.00 loading per passenger flight sector over and above direct internet fares. While this fee for service attitude is something the Rat would love to introduce across the board as has been the case in the US and elsewhere, the marketing w@nkers still just do not get the Australian market.

Impulse self immolated on the assumption that they could go it alone direct to the public. Freedom Air is seldom mentioned as an alternative and are missing out on bucketloads of traffic, and DJ will be offering parallel fares with 7% commission. Now I guess they know where tens of thousands of travel professionals will be pointing their client's dollars.

How a bunch of ex TN clowns - and you know who you are - can consider they know how to run a budget airline confounds me.

These are the same lack lustre ex management trainees that drove TAA and then Australian into the basket that was handed to the Rat to rescue before it collapsed upon itself.

Ignore the Travel Industry, and seek to cut the rights, priveleges and remuneration of your people any further Ratstar, and do not plan on retiring on the funds of your QF shares.

It is well documented that no full service airline has ever succesfully operated a cut price subsidiary. I am sure it can be done, but one has to have the quality of people orchestrating the operation of the Airline to ensure that. You lose!!

The downside in a big way to this is that good and efficient Impulse crews' livelyhoods are being put at risk yet again.

Sorry state of affairs.

Best all

EWL

[Don Esson]

Well said but for the wrong reasons. Jetstar will prosper at the expense of Qantas domestic. Other low cost children of full service carriers have tried to co-exist with parents but in this instance, I'll lay pounds to peanuts that the real agenda is to gradually over a 3-5 year time-frame completely take Qantas (as we now know it) out of the domestic arena. It's easier to do that than rectify the ails that currently afflict Qantas.

The staff at the top are an intersting mob. The CEO worked at Aer Lingus but before he ended up at Qantas I hear he also spent time at American and Ansett. Hardly a good career path for one at the top of a low cost carrier?

[FatEric]

Song. Snowflake. BMI Baby. Tango. Zip. Freedomair.

Its well documented that there are some very successfull startups by full service airlines.

[Eastwest Loco]

See your logic Don, but personally feel the Australian domestic market is a singular beast, not a clone of any other market type I know.

I see the big winner as DJ and QF reverting to the current model within 18 months out of desperation.

Best regards

EWL

[Buster Hyman]

Seems to have been a while since I've seen a post from you EWL, welcome back if you've been away.

It will be very interesting to see how this "spawn of the devil" ;) evolves. Many, especially here on Dunnunda, see it as the new QF domestic & way to erode conditions further. I think QF can make a real go of it, if they do it right, but, as you say, getting the same old people in to run it means that, potentially, the same old mistakes will be encountered.

Having never booked anything through a travel agent, I don't know the consequences of their actions, but I'm certain there are punters out there that wouldn't know of any other way. To effectively hinder access to your product from some quarters, under the guise of retaining revenue in-house seems lunacy, but hey, I've only had 19 odd years in the game, what would I know.:hmm:

[apacau]

Hate to be a nitpicker but:

Tango is almost gone as it was a failure

Snowflake is having awful trouble and may be shut down

Song is brand new - far too early to tell

Zip has stayed small and really can't be counted against the "might" of Air Canada

BmiBaby hasn't done badly but a few routes (eg; East Midlands to Brussels) have reverted back to full bmi service after the low-cost model was soundly rejected by business punters on the route

Freedomair hasn't done badly but certainly isn't a shining light.

[Wheeler]

Lets hope they do have a few new ideas then - Track record of these 'ventures' under the 'protection' the big boys is not good.

[Eastwest Loco]

Hi Buster - and a typically good call!

With reference to totally ignoring products, take Freedom as an example.

We simply do not book them except for a rare occasion when a large corporate is in need.

In some ways we are insulated with the local market in Tas as a Freedom flt plus a domestic connex is generally dearer than a QF cheapie. 80% of our market however, never sees Tas.

Fee for service is something I and most of our industry wish to ignore, as why should the Airline get the groundwork, processing, storage of documentation and trouble shooting done by us and then pay us nothing - make us add it on.

If they call Res direct then the Airline is paying for staff buildings, super, payroll tax etc to field the call, or with a web booking make alterations or fix the stuffups etc that we normally do for the initial commission and none of the change fee unless there is a fare difference.

United tried it on 2 years ago dropping commissions across the board from 9% to7%. Guess what? Agents advised them to go pound sand up their crack. It is very easy. Sell the NZ code share on the same aeroplane on a published fare and get 9% - sell NZ - sell the Rat. Guess what UA pay now?? I am happy to sell them again.

AA (and UA) do not pay any commission on US start point bookings. What do we do? Sell NW HP DL US etc etc. It aint hard and is seamless for the client.

An Airline has no right to expect an Agent to sell their services for the same rate as the Airline does direct to the public and expect support when we have to sell at a higher price.

It just does not work that way. In large markets they will get away with it to a degree with the likes of Greasyjet and Ryanair who have a huge market to draw on.

On the flipside, take a look at DJ. They hit the market offering the same fares to agents with a payback for booking the same fares as they sold themselves, and added a premium to fares bought over the phone. Despite all the pro and con sniping that goes on in here, they are flourishing and Agents are offering their services as a comparison. They are still offering 7% commission, and they are still getting the support and growing like Topsy.

Buster, it amazes me that these ex TN wallies have not picked up the vibe yet, but then I was at TN when they were Management Trainees and know what total nerds many of them were then.

Fateric

The operations you have listed are valid, but have been put into context - read apacau's remarks and then add to that the different marketplaces involved.

The Australian market is in no way similar.

If DJ yield management is up to it, and I am sure they are, they will be keeping fares close to parallel on slot times and port pairs. They know they will have their staff, the web and 10s of thousands of professionals working simply against staff and web.

Buckle up ladies and gents

We's in for a bumpy ride

Best regards

EWL

[Kaptin M]

I can understand your disappointment, EWL, in not getting the access to the new player.
It would seem pretty obvious that unless Jet Star (QANTAS) offers you Travel Agents (T.A.'s) some other special fares to lure your victims...sorry, clients....to YOU, then not only do you stand to not pick up some of the new clientele, but may find you lose some of your existing ones, for the sake of $10.
That being the case, perhaps you (in a concerted effort with other T.A.'s) need to consider the alternatives to QANTAS for international travel, and direct your customers that way.
What goes around, comes around! :}

Each of us tend to look at developments within the limitations and definitions of our own work profile, but if we can step back for a while and try to see what Jet Stars multiple roles might be, and what QANTAS expects to get out of it, Jet Star's short to medium term viability based on income revenue could have very little to do with the reason for its formation, imo.

What do we (plebs) THINK QANTAS (Dixon, Oldmeadow) wants to achieve?
Well, as EWL has notated, they want pax to make direct Internet bookings - thereby eliminating commissions to T.A.'s, and reducing the number of ground staff QANTAS need to employ.
A pax will simply need a paperless ticket (i.e. an Internet issued reference code, as is done now), which he will punch into a computer terminal at the airport to be issued a boarding pass which will accomodate seating requests (as is done in Japan now).
Check-in baggage will be tagged, scanned, and weighed, with excess baggage requiring a credit card payment (nice smiles won't get you past this one!!), or rejection for non-payment.

So that eliminates about 90% of the current check-in staff.

Now, those pesky loaders. Well it's pretty obvious that George Dubya and Honest John have got the unions fairly in their sights.

Is it sheer co-incidence that one of the TWU's biggest strongholds - Ansett - was not given any assistance, and allowed to collapse, whilst V.B. now finds itself under the control of Chris Corrigan - the same gentleman allegedly responsible for training potential strike breakers in Dubai several years ago? (Thats' a rhetorical Q, btw.)

And now on to those QANTAS Frequent Flyer points.
In reality, what percentage QF FF'ers use their points for o/s travel vs domestic?
The truth is, I don't know the answer, but from my knowledge of my fellow country persons, I would say that MOST probably use their points for travel within Oz, eg. LST-MEL, MEL-SYD, SYD-MEL, etc....Eastern seaboard stuff.
Jet Star like Australian, will NOT allow the QF FF'ers to cash in.
QANTAS only recently upped the number of points, considerably, required for upgrades - I know, because I am a FF'er - to further limit their liability.
Jet Star - QANDOM's imminent replacement - will totally remove ALL FF points liabilities.

(Almost) Bottom of the list - pilots' conditions.
I see Australian and Jet Star as a 2-pronged attack on QF pilots. AIPA have let this one through the nets as well (as Australian)...so "Good Luck" guys.

But what is the BEST incentive, the one thing that can drive men to send thousands to the unemployment queues, or to drive those on mediocre wages down further?
GREED!
The GREED to score just one MORE Million $$$ plus BONUS.

[Wizofoz]

Sorry Gentlemen, but the fact is that time moves on. Kap, was it GREED for bonuses that led to airlines doing away with radio operators, navigators and flight engineers? No, it was the march of technology.

I now live in Europe, the bastion of the Lo Cos, and it's obvious that the "Traditional" airlines will be out of the short haul business, as it is now, within the decade.

I frequently fly on the lo cos, and it is an interesting experience. Book on line, get an incredible fair (I just looked at LTN-AMS in a weeks time..11.99STG one way!!), walk up to the dedicated check in for that flight, and off you go.

The idea that QF or anybody should ignore the availability of a cheaper, more efficient way to do business in just silly. QF, along with United, BMI and a host of others are simply waking up to the reality of business in the new century.

FF points are meant as an incentive for repeat business, but the simple fact is there is no beter incentive for people to fly with you than... Cheap fares.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Eastwest Loco,

Not sure you're going to like this but how about Go? It's the only genuine case of this strange type of creation that has actually been tested in the real life world of being valued, assessed and sold.

Spun off totally separate from BA. Start capital of 25 million GBP. Lent 11 mill back to BA at commercial rates to improve the look of their balance sheet.

Inside 3 years sold off at 330 million. That's real money not 'valued at.'

Travel agents cut out of the loop. Call centre actually shunk in size as the internet sales took over. Internet sales took 3 months to reach 30% and then climbed towards 90.

No shortage of Ozmates and Kiwis who where there to confirm. Skippers picked up over 60,000 bonus on sale of company, i.e just about a year of basic salary - not sure about the effo's.

Only way to do it is dump everything considered the way to do things other than operational integrity and safety systems.

Regards
Rob

[steelcraft]

Kaptin M, Great post but I have cashed in QF FF points for a hoilday on Australain Airlines. But you cannot earn points on Australian services. It is a holiday airline and when you think about it you would never fly enough to earn enough points to burn.
Regards


Steely

[Eastwest Loco]

Hiya Rob - pleasure to have you in this little forum mate.

Firstly, I would like to make it clear that my little business is based on the high yield, high care corporate sector (thank God) and is fairly well insulated from the revenue losses running across the industry in the VFR market.

Go is a good example, but again target market has some bearing.

We do actually book addon flights - particularly Stanstead Biarritz for clients on Ryanair and other odds and sods.

Point is for a 7% override on average, you have an extra x thousand people selling your product and as such open wider markets. Done on the web by agents this is ultra low cost to the Airline with no GDS fees at all.

Totally different market to ours, but we seem to be sliding that way.

That is why I am more than concentrating on the high care end and thankfully doing OK.

I was born an Airline brat and will never be anything else, and am saddened how people are no longer needed in the ultimate people industry.

Thanks too Kap - good call. (Victims a good call to some would say).

Voting with one's feet turned United's opinion 180 degrees inside 2 years. QF's decision may also have a similar impact on themselves downward and DJ and International competitors upward.

Still a fair bit of clout in this sector - so we shall indeed see.

Best all, and thanks to Rob for dropping in.

EWL

[Kaptin M]

Here's a first!! I don't disagree with you, Wiz, when you state "it was the march of technology."
Indeed it is.

But by the same token, the so-called "low cost" airline for which I work proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that the people responsible for demolishing many of the front line, passenger service jobs are not sincere.
There are many areas where THEY work, that could be made far more cost efficient, but are NOT!
For example, the location of "low cost" airlines offices ie. where the non-revenue productive (NRP) staff work ought to be located in low rent areas. The FACT is they ususally aren't...generally they're located in the HIGH RENT airport/downtown areas.

Accounting is not a 9-5, 7 days a week full time requirement. It is something that can be done on a semi-casual basis, at far cheaper (overall) rates than employing Company accountants.

Crew Scheduling should be a multi-tasked position, in conjunction with Dispatchers, Load Control, etc.

More recogniton given to ATC, and the affect THEY can have on an airline's (on time) performance.

Recognition that ground-based employees are LESS in need of coffee/lunch breaks, than flight crews, and that if it's good enough for flight crew to "eat on the run", then the same should apply to EVERYONE.

That during week-ends and public hols (Christmas, New Year, Easter) airlines work HARDER and put on extra flights...and THESE are the times when support from ground staff is MORE likely to be required - at no loading, of course!

If ANY ground staff can be shown to be dispensable for (say) 3, 4, or 7 days consecutively with no replacement, and no (adverse) effect felt by the Company, then the question of whether they are needed at all, might be prudent!

[Buster Hyman]

Crew Scheduling should be a multi-tasked position, in conjunction with Dispatchers, Load Control, etc
Would you really want your CFP or Loadsheet done by someone who has been trying to cover that BOC trip all afternoon? Having done all 3 jobs Kap, I'm inclined to think that some skills cannot be multi tasked. Granted, in a small operation, this may be ok, but not a major.:ok: (I will assume you might have been generalising to illustrate your point.)

However, I like the idea of casual bean counters! "Cop that you inbreeds!":}

[Wizofoz]

Kap,

Multi tasking, fewer breaks, casual employment- These are all features of REAL low cost operators. The protected, regulated environment in Japan may be similar to the one you left in two-airline Australia, but it's not the situation in the deregulated industry.

As to Low Rent, the entire easyJet operation (Now 90 aircraft and 20 million pax per year) is run from a bunch of de-mountable buildings perched by the runway at decidedly low rent Luton.

The in built inefficiencies you describe are the PROBLEM with traditional, full service airlines and are why they can't compete on short haul routes, which are predominently cost driven. What QF is doing with Jetstar is a realisation of this fact.

By the way, I think too many execs get paid way too much, but that doesn't make a true low cost subsidury a bad idea.

[Eastwest Loco]

Wizofoz

I have to take you to task on multi tasking and contractors with a small twist.

The Eeenie Weenie DPO and WNY operations were initially staffed by contract staff through Webster Limited. i was Airports Manager for both, but alsohaulded put the battery cart in the morning to wake up EW761, dropped the manual trim, checked in baggage and seat alolcated, helped load the catering and when needed loaded baggage into the F27-500.

My staff were all capable of the same apart from the contract porters who could do all of the above except drop a trim line as they had no W+B training.

Four of us could turn around an F27-500 or F28-4000 well under industry standard and way under turnaround time. BAe-146 only required one more hand on deck. We could quite comfotably get by with 3 aeroplanes on deck with 4 on hand and still meet or beat turnaround.

So where is the problem now? Sure we were gibbering wrecks as the last of the cluster left the ground, but we were good - bloody good and just simply because we adored our little airline and put our hearts and souls into it.

You should have no qualms about the bloke or girl who hands you the load and trim chucking bags, allocating seats and tagging baggage and even carrying the coffee can onto the aeroplane PROVIDING you trust him and he has been properly trained and loves his Airline too.

Please do not generalise, as the few real professionals left out there can even do a fuel drain for you and present it to you so you do not have to get soaking wet and smelly.

I just wish you had just once experienced an East West Devonport turnaround under stressful conditions. It may just have given you a whole new outlook on what is possible with the right crew around you. Contract or not.

Bottom line is the Airline we worked our butts off for eventually hired us, and that was the finest day I can remember. They put their money where their mouth was and committed to us, as we had commited to them. Something there for the new kids on the block I feel!

There is hope for the crews of today. They just need the Airline to get under their skin and to be the bets they can for their girl.

If we can get that back into the industry we have moved back 20 years in outlook and forward 40 years in service level.

Best all

EWL

[Kaptin M]

That is what is so frustrating to many pilots these days, Wiz - having OUR conditions consistently eroded, yet the dicks in the office (the non-revenue producers - NRP's) doing sfa to trim costs in at least some of the ways discussed on this thread.
The situation you describe is something I would expect of a TRUE LCC.
It is certainly not the way things are done in Japan. We have seen the office staff quadruple here, and the original small office moved to a re-decorated full floor to accomodate them - but with no change in the number of aircraft being operated.
Asian efficiency at its best. The adage "many hands make light work" has been convoluted to "It takes many hands to make a light work".
And so while more Vice Presidents are appointed, and they in turn employ subordinates, the pilots, cabin crew, caterers, and cleaning staff get screwed down further to support the NRP's.

EWL's example of 3 or 4 diligent workers performing several tasks is something that todays' LCC's should aspire to - if they are sincere.
So are million $ + bonuses really warranted by re-discovering what worked (well) decades ago?

Rant over - it's my sushi time.

[Wizofoz]

EWL,

What you have described is EXACTLEY how a good lo-co (at least the ground handling part) works, why EWA was a great airline, and why it posed such a threat to the majors that they had to take it over, saddle it with their leviathon dinosaur cost structure, and take it down with the ship!

When you know first hand what can be achieved, it must come as no suprise that astute airline look at those eficiencies and say "I'll have some of that". They're not going to get it past their unions, so a lo-co subsidury is a viable answer.

[Kaptin M]

East-West never posed any threat to the majors (Ansett and Australian) - their route structure was mainly between larger regional centres.
The reason it was attractive, was because - like Ansett when Abeles and Murdoch acquired it - almost ALL of their equipment and buildings were owned outright. It was an asset rich company, that allowed Pete & Rupe to sell off ("asset-strip" is a term that comes to mind) as much as possible, pocket the money from the sales and then lease replacement equipment.

"They're not going to get it past their unions.." - a fairly sweeping statement, considering that Virgin Blue seems to "have got it past" the AFAP, and has been working with them since its inception, something that your Ansett was incapable of doing, and fell victim to!

[Eastwest Loco]

Kap - you are totally correct with what you say, BUT - we were a major threat.

Three F100s were on the line at Schipol and Abeles had Hawke delay deregulation long enough to allow him to buy us by stealth.

The best of the best were operaing freely in EWA, while ANSW tried their best under a regime that would not let them shine as they would have if they were Butler Air Transport and AWA pumped dollars into the coffers still being the jewel in the AN regional crown.

We had to be destroyed or assimilated. Both would and did bring the same result.

One more nail in the coffin of our industry.

Best regards mate.

Ron

EWL