Questions about obtaining an Instrument Rating

[swashplate]

Is there any way that you can do an IR for single helo's. Or only twins? How do you go about doing this - schools?

[tbc]

Bristows run an IR course at N. Denes using their classroom simulator and an approved AB 206 G-AVII. They could get you an IR on that type - assuming they still exist of course.

Under JAR the course would presumably be somewhere in the region of 55 hrs on type unless you had some exemption available i.e. you were a QSP (Qualified Service Pilot) in which case the hours required could be something like 20 or so?

Worth giving them a call.

[Stinger]

Yes.... but, Double India is the ONLY IFR approved single. Single engined helicopters are not approved for IFR. So, your freshly minted IR is near enough worthless. You must expect to upgrade to a twin to be able to use it, unless you only want the training for the 'experience'. It is now based in Norwich, and there is no better.

[Marco]

Get in touch with Rick Newson at PAS. Phone number 01452 857999.

[tbc]

Stinger,

I may be way off the mark here but I believe the twin requirement is for Public Transport Operations, and therefore a single engined IR can still be used for private work.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong of course.

[Special 25]

Yes, G-AVII is still going strong with Bristow down in Norwich but JAR rules have taken their toll. You can no longer get a Single Engine IR (not that it was worth much) and I understand the IR course they do there now is 20 Hrs B206 and then upgrade onto the Twin Squirrel. Still probably the best IR course in the country and as cost effective as you're likely to find.

[Flying Dutchie]

Hi everyone,

I'm training in Holland for a CPL-H and will soon need a Instrument Rating. In Holland it's really expensive. I fly the R22.

What costs a IR in the UK? Does anyone have a good idea for obtaining a IR that will be valid for the JAR-FCL rules?

Thanks

[BabyPuma]

Hi there!

Intrument ratings (especially JAR IR´s) are generally very expensive wherever you go. In the UK there are 2 schools offering JAR IR´s for helicopters: Bristow Helicopters (Norwich Airport) and CABAIR (Cranfield)
Bristow offers training in a B206 and you can get a single engine IR which is of no use but you can upgrade it to a multiengine IR within 5h (and if you are thinking of joining an offshore company in the north sea they usually pay for it anyway)
This IR is about 23000 pound including VAT and takes about 6 weeks.

CABAIR offers a multiengine IR partly flown in a R22 and the rest (15h+test) in a Twin Squirrel (AS355). I dont know the exact price but it should be about 25000 pound.

You can find both companies in the internet.
Another way of obtaining a cheap IR is getting sponsored by a north sea company and it is probaly worth a try to phone them up and see if they are sponsoring pilots at the moment.

Wish you good luck in the future!

BabyPuma

PS: Chances of getting an offshore job if you have your IR are very good at the moment!

[Marco]

Try Rick Newson at PAS. 01452 857999 or [email protected].

[Flying Dutchie]

Thanks for your help everyone

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Flying Dutchie,

I am moving to Den Haag to work this weekend and am curious to find out about private flying out there.

I have a 22 and 206 rating, about 50 hrs on the 206 now and would like to know if there is anywhere I can self fly hire one in or around Den Haag. Can you help?

please email me on [email protected] if you can help.

My licence is JAR not CAA so that at least should not be a problem :)

------------------
_ _ _____________ _ _
The idea of not being able to stop before I land is scarey.

[toothless tiger]

I have an UK CAA ATPL(H) and a UK CAA CPL(A)/IR. I am not required to do a full cse for an IR but only as required. I have also just completed IR(A). I am therefore fairly current on Inst flying but need to get an IR(H) as the companies who are willing to offer me employement are able to provide me a Type Rating and at the same time revalidate the IR(H) for the relevant type, but are not able to give an initial IR. I am v frustrated as the CAA requirement to achieve this at an approved FTO not only seems to me as a bit of red tape in my case (it is effectively a hurdle to jump through) but also unnecessary in view of mty experience (ex Mil +1200 hrs TT, +800 hrs MPH inc Proc Rating)

Does anyone have any suggestions for the easiest (cheapest) way of obtaining the Initial IR(H) as that is all that prevents me from gaining employment!! Which FTO? what Type?

[Helinut]

TT,

(Assuming you mean UK)I have not done the leg work for you at the CAA web site, but you should consult the FCL/PCL section. There is/was an effective exemption from the need to do an approved course for current ATPL(H)/CPL(H) holders who had a certain experience level - something like 600 hours from (defective) memory. You have to do enough training to pass a pre-test test with an IRE who issues a 170A - there may be a minimum level of training on the type - something like 5 hours IF but you will need that amount anyway. My final recollection on this was that the exemption facility comes to an end around the end of this year. All of this needs confirming but hope it helps

[Bearintheair]

Give Paddy Connelly the Chief Training Captain at Police Aviation Services a call on 01452 857674. PAS are doing IR(H)courses.

[fuel2noise]

Not sure if this is any help but I have recently left the RN with ATPL(H) on the Sea King, then did the various bits and bobs to end up with a CPL(A)IR / frozen ATPL(A)(I did the IR at Brian Marindin's outstanding school at Exeter, GFT at Bristol).. .. .I have recently passed my IR(H) with my new company (British International) on the S61N. They gave me a Sim course followed by 2 flights (1 of which was the 170A trip), then flew the test with a CAA examiner.. .Main point is that the CAA will grant 'experienced helicopter pilots' and those who hold a fixed wing IR, an exemption from doing an approved IR course. Write to FCL detailing your experience and I expect that they will tell you that you may get your IR(H) by doing 'sufficient training as required by your company', pass a 170A pre-IRT flight and then pass the IR with a CAA examiner. If you could afford it, you could of course pay CABAIR or similar school and do the IR(H) in a light helicopter without company sponsorship - better way is get a job then get the company to put you through the 'fast track' system I describe. Best wishes and good luck.

[buttline]

Anyone know of where, other than Bristow's - who can't fit me in until Feb 2003, I can do the IR (single or multi).

Someone mentioned Police Aviation Services to me...

Rumour has it there's a sim operation in South France gearing up to offer it.

Thanks,

Barry


(p.s. the bit in the title in brackets was added later by a moderator. I'd never be so controversial! Well, at least not until I've got my exam results back.. :-)

[engineoff]

Bristows are very good in respect of the procedures trainer; have no experience of their IR flying courses. My personal opinion is not to bother with the B206 IR and stick with an AS355. Provided you have a good grasp of the procedural concepts you may get away with no sim time and just some flying. (if you are exempt the approved IR by way of experience). Suggest Capt. Richard Poppe @ Alan Mann , Fairoaks although have heard he's pretty busy with courses at the moment.

[Helinut]

It depends a lot on your situation (experience etc.) and when you want to do it.

Up until the end of this year an "experienced" commercial pilot (H) can do sufficient training to pass the test (and 170 A pre-test) and that is it. After that, or for those whose experience does not match the requirements you will need to do a course at a school that has a CAA approval to do IRs. Individuals (no matter how good) cannot themselves do IR training under JAR-FCL. This course must involve 55 hours. I think you can get away with doing some sim and SE simulated IMC, but the majority needs to be done in a twin - the CAA keep changing their interpretation of the rules.

Those organisations that hold IR(H) approvals should be listed on the CAA website - trouble is the list is very out of date.

There is the unique exception that allows Bristows to do an IR course on their "special" B206 - otherwise the test must be done on an IFR (i.e. twin). I suggest you use the twin that you know best and are likely to get work on. Trying to combine learning a new type and IR is just making life too difficult.
Having said that the AS355 is the cheapest twin (cheapest in this context is VERY relative).

My personal recommendation would be to go to Starspeed - first rate experienced guys and they do hold an approval. (No I am not connected). Like lots of good outfits there could well be a delay.

[Flying Lawyer]

bclague

You can reach Capt Richard Poppe direct at [email protected].

[paco]

Any idea what the exemptions might be? I have a current FW IR, and have held a military green heli - if I have to do yet another 55 hours I'll stick to VFR!

Phil

[buttline]

Thanks very much.

Barry

[Rotorbike]

paco

As mentioned earlier if you hold a CAA Helicopter Commercial then it is only training as required for a 170A and a checkride till the end of 2002. You must be type rated in the aircraft that you do the test in. Aircraft must be capable of IFR so it's mostly AS355....

If you have a CAA or JAA airplane instrument then it is only a 10 hour add-on after the end of 2002 according to JAR's.

For all others after the end of 2002 it is a full 55 hour JAA approved course for which you will get 5 hours off for owning a Commercial licence. Nothing for a foreign instrument.

There has been some rumours on the Wanabees forum that these regulations are being looked at so that pilots with experience won't have to do the full course!!!

Interesting to read that other places can offer training as last week the CAA informed me that the only three available was Cabair, Bristow and PAS. Nobody else could give a 170A sign-off, ONLY these three. You could train anywhere but would have to go to one of these three for a 170A sign-off. Can anyone confirm that that I received bum information from the CAA??

Bristow as mentioned above are unable to help till Feb 2003, PAS haven't currently got an instructor on staff to do the training!!! and that just leaves Cabair. Which IMHO isn't choice in the marketplace!!!! Fast Helicopters (Mike Green) have informed me that they are able to offer training but I need to chase them further.

Possibly the place in the south of France is Eurocopter (AS355) via Helisim who haven't answered email requests. Another option might be Eurocopter in Germany (BO105) who on their website offer instrument training but also don't bother replying to requests for information!!!

[buttline]

Sound like, it's worth doing the fixed wing PPL/IR first if it saves 20 hours of twin time?

Barry

[Stinger]

Barry - the gen posted in this thread is pretty much the full story - at risk of tedious repetition:

1. For a UK IR(H) you are required under JARs to undergo a course of training at an Instrument FTO (These are Bristow Helicopters, Cabair or PAS, as correctly listed by Rotorbike)

2. The course, as you will be aware, consists of 55 hours - of which 15 hours min. must be in a multi-engine helicopter & 20 hours (max) in a simulator. This is reduced to 50 hours for holders of a CPL(H).

3. A single engine rating course is 50 hours of which 15 hours (max) may be in the simulator. You would then require additional 5 hours in a multi-engine type to upgrade to ME IR(H).

4. Until Dec 31st 2002 the CAA 'intends to be as flexible as possible in allowing license holders to take advantage of the full transition period'. Until this date, exemption from having to undergo an approved course of training will be given to:

a. Holders of UK IR(A) - plus (in helicopters) 50 hours PIC, including 20 hours X-country, 20 hours instrument time, 5 hours instrument time in the helicopter to be tested in (most of the latter would be achieved in training).

b. 'QSPs' (Service - read 'military' - Pilots) plus (in helicopters) 200 hours total, 100 hours pic, 40 hours instruments & 5 hours inst. on type.

c. Pilots with 400 hours PIC on helicopters......

(the above is an 'interpretation' of the regs., but mostly the truth).

If you are 'exempt approved' training as in 4. above, then there are several providers who are able to complete your training to initial instrument rating test standard - contacts have been mentioned in previous posts. Otherwise the three FTOs (possibly only two) are your only choice at present. And yes, they are very busy.

[buttline]

I'm hoping to eventually get a North Sea co-pilot position. Got a CPL(H) and less than 200hrs right now.

With a view to that - would it be better to spend the money (about 25k pounds) on an Instrument Rating or on building hours? I'm guessing 25k is about 250-300hrs in the UK..?

On one hand, I can see that the experience is valuable but, on the other hand, if you have the IR, you're cheaper to bring on-line.... Also, I feel like if I have to pay to fly with a CPL, I might as well be receiving some training for my money!

[B.Loser]

You're thinking pretty straight in my opinion, - get the instrument rating.

[Woolf]

Difficult decision that one! If I was you I'd probably speak to all the possible employers first before committing all that money. (and I guess an IR is nearer to 30k and over than 25k) Get in touch with Scotia (Alan Veale) and Bristows (Graham Dainty) and see if they would consider you. :)

[Whirlybird]

If it helps your decision at all, R22 self fly hire in the UK is around £140-£150/hr. You may get it slightly cheaper paying a lump sum in advance at some places, but not a lot. That means your £25K will buy you less than 200 hrs :(

Good luck; I'm in roughly the same position, but decided I'd really like to instruct anyway, and wasn't sure I fancied the North Sea. I'm having loads of fun and learning a lot, but it's still annoying to have to pay a fortune to fly when you have a CPL, isn't it?

[Heli-Ice]

buttline.

I have to agree with woolf on this you should check to see if the North Sea operators are willing to hire you, before doing anything else.

I went for an interview at one of the North Sea operators last fall without having my IR and what I got from that was a very postive attitude towards employment as soon as I got I got my IR. So I went home and got it but now I'm waiting for the CAA to start issuing JAR licenses... :D I'd recommend you to get the IR.

What I want to know is why the IR is so expensive? Is it because you have to do it in a multi-engine helicopter or what? This is a ridicilous amount of money required for attaining work privileges, people who have this money at hand are usually into some other kind of business, me thinks.


Happy landings.

Heli-Ice

[Draco]

Heli-ice said - "What I want to know is why the IR is so expensive? Is it because you have to do it in a multi-engine helicopter or what?"

Bang on. Thank you, CAA. They are paranoid of single engine failures, so it makes it rather hard to get an instrument-rated machine with a single engine. I did hear, however, that there is a lone IFR jetranger operating out of Redhill.

The Americans have a more enlightened view.

[Steve76]

My 50 cents worth....

I can't believe that you guys in Europe would consider spending that amount of money on a IF Rating so early in your career.
In fact to be brutally honest, you really have no career at the moment.
Why not postpone the cojoe slot and work on getting some command time up?
You will have an easier time to the command seat on the twins later and you will bring more experience to your offshore employer.
Offshore is not all its cracked up to be and you will spend a lot of time in the LH seat before being considered to become aircraft captain. You may even hate it but then be committed to paying back or recouping your massive investment and be forced to endure it for many years.

Additionally,
To even think about doing the IF rating in a twin is crazy! I would tell them where to stick it. The CAA will accept overseas flying towards the CAA equivalent licence... they just won't accept the exams. There's a host of schools in North America or Australia where you can do it in a Robinson.

Better still, go out and do a Fixed wing PPL and the IFR on top and then convert it to the Helo. There is no difference between Helo and slabwing and it saves you buckets of dosh.

:cool:

[SFIM]

hey Buttline,

I have instructed, done commercial work onshore and am now a co-pilot offshore and therefore feel qualified to venture an opinion , and it seems to me it is all about risk and return and the state of the north sea market at the time.

1. if you have an instructors rating you will find work if you try hard enough (even if it is just trial lessons at the weekend for a while) especially if you are prepared to travel.

2.commercial work onshore is hard to get with less than 1000 P1, although you may be lucky, and the best way to get those hours is through instructing.

3.co-joe offshore is the best way in but also the most risky approach, last year both bristow and scotia hired a lot and sponsored the IR's because they were short, at the moment scotia have a surplus and are talking about losing people (hopefully with no redundancies) they go from not hiring, to hiring people with IR's, to hiring with no IR's but high hours and sponsoring them, to hiring people with no IR and low hours at the bottom of the heap.

for me to pay for your own IR now seems a poor bet, wheras a year ago it would have been a good bet therefore it is high risk.

staring at the bottom, i.e instructor rating with your CPL is low risk and more likely to succeed but also the returns are lower

lastly, single engine IR is only on one Jetranger owned by bristow through a historic anomaly training is a norwich, and is only suitable for people going offshore.

[John Eacott]

If you are serious in investing the equivalent of more than $A60k, then why not get value for money and spend it down here? Kestrel Aviation , with whom I have no affiliation or commercial interest) have just invested in a Frasca 342 sim., which is approved for instrument rating training. Alternatively, Professional Helicopter Services have a neat training set up on the Gold Coast, you could invest some of that money on gaining hours with them.

You'll find the cost of both helicopter hire, and cost and standard of living, somewhat more attractive that the sunny North Sea :cool:

[Rotorbike]

Unfortunately to do an instrument rating you must do a full course as you don't have 400 hours PIC. Reference: www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56466

This would mean a minimum of 15 hours of AS355 (twin) instrument time at 1000 quid an hour plus type rating plus checkride. Before this you have to do a further 35 hours in flight or simulator. I would be very surprised if it came in at under 25K!!!

Unless you intend waiting till Feb 2003 for the first available slot at Bristow Helicopters Training.

Spending this money puts you on the list for TWO UK companies. When there just aren't any openings with either. For example Bristow currently have over 100 resumes with CPL or better AND no expected vacancies for the remainder of 2002.

Must you return to the UK??? Why not try the rest of the world???

Have you not thought of getting a FAA instrument instructor licence whilst in Florida?? Then working out there (presume you are at HAI so can get a J1 visa) to build the time till over 500 or 1000 then returning to the UK to instruct and waiting for the North Sea 'call'!!!

Pound for pound, I don't think it is a very good 'bet' at the moment.

But you have to be 'in to win' and with the UK instrument you would be that!!!

:D :cool: :D

Good luck with your decision!!!

[buttline]

Thanks to all for your responses.

The thing that makes the decision is harder is that, although employment prospects are gloomy right now, some of my instructors worked the North Sea for many years and say that things can change at a moment's notice.

I really don't want to instruct with just 200hrs so I think I'll go for it.

Many thanks,
Barry

[discobeast]

Why don't you build your hours in South Africa? With 25K you will get atleast 260 hours flying with an instructor and also learn more. You will also be able to do your IR in 22's. With the pound/rand situation, it will be more hours for your buck. Contact me if you want some more info. i will set you up with the best school and instructors. Obviously the place I flew at...hahaha.....

hire&fly: around $130 per hour
instruction: around $144 per hour

ciao!

[email protected]:) :)

[ClearBlueWater]

Buttline, I'm in the same situation as you, hoping to go co-joe in the North Sea and wondering whether the way forward on top of a minimum hours CPL is IR or another 110 hours and then the Instructor rating. When I spoke to Graham Dainty about this a few months ago he said that an IR on top of a 200 hour CPL was of much more interest to him than an Instructor with 1000 hours in R22s. Of course that doesn't mean you're 'in' if you get an IR.

A question for those that have IRs: How many hours do you have to fly annually under instrument conditions to keep the IR current? In a Twin Squirrel at GBP 1000 per hour the commitment to maintaining the IR would quickly pall. Can the annual requirement be done in a sim?

[Rotorbike]

These are the recent changes to airplane requirements for issuance of an IR and I would expect that helicopters should get the same requirements shortly. Email is in at the CAA requesting clarification if these regulations will be for helicopters too.

Looks like the cheapest route, once training as required expires, will become foreign IR then 15 hour JAR conversion!!! A far sensible solution than the full 50/55 hour course.

www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/whatsnew.asp

Policy Information/Update - JAR IR Training/Credits for ICAO IR Holders............21 June 2002

In our last Policy Update of 1st November 2001 it was stated that an ICAO licence holder with IR, who does not meet the JAR-FCL ATPL experience requirements, shall undergo a full approved training course for the issue of an IR. It was further stated that this policy was being reviewed. We have now received a response from a representative of UK training organisations and the following conversion requirements have been agreed and may be implemented with immediate effect:

“The holder of an IR, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a non-JAA State shall, (subject to the notes below), complete all items of the appropriate JAR IR syllabus including at least 15 hours of flight instruction, of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1*, or 10 hours in a FNPT 2* or Flight Simulator*, plus any additional training considered necessary by the FTO, plus a 170A Flight Test and a JAR IR Skill Test.”

NOTES:
* Such synthetic training device shall be appropriately approved.
The holder of an ATPL(A) or CPL(A)/IR issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 who meets the 1500 hours flying experience requirements on multi-pilot aeroplanes (as PIC or co-pilot) of Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.015 may be exempted from the requirements of the IR(A) modular course prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations and the IR(A) Skill Test.
Other exceptional cases should continue be referred to the CAA.
These credits shall remain subject to review in discussion with the JAA and representatives of UK training organisations.

Rotorbike

[buttline]

Wow! Even more reason to be in the U.S. An FAA heli IR rating is about 7k sterling - compared to 30k sterling in twins at home.

Does anyone out there have both ratings? Are there any concerns about going this route?

I know the U.S. does some things that aren't done in the UK such as ILS backcourses and circling to land approaches. Anything more contravercial?

[Helinut]

Well there is a another nail in the coffin of UK training schools then!

On the basis of that information, after the end of this year almost everyone will be better off to do their IR training almost anywhere other than the UK, with the UK "conversion".

As JAR FCL pans out I am increasingly glad that I have been fortunate enough to move on from UK training and not rely on it to give me a living.

Is the CAA the only aviation regulator that uses reverse trade barriers to oppress its own industry??

[paco]

Thanks for the info - guess I'll do my Canadian one first, as I am exempt the training because of my UK FW IR, then I can become exempt some of the UK heli, and so on and on. Daft, isn't it?

phil

[Heliport]

Yet another nail in the British aviation coffin?

[Rotorbike]

The nail in the British coffin comes from cost and not from any JAA regulation.

Surely you don't believe that someone that has an ICAO instrument rating should have to complete the same 50 hour flight course as someone that hasn't got a rating already??

If so, maybe the CAA should give checkrides at Heathrow airport to US, Australian, South African etc with non JAA instrument tickets.

Paco, if you have a CAA fixed wing instrument then I believe under JAA it is a 10 hour add-on for the helicopter one.

[buttline]

It does seem unfair that most of the fixed wing IR course is done on single engines with a multi conversion at the end but JAR heli IRs have to be on twins (with the exception of Bristow's 206).

Why does the JAA consider a single engine to be ok for IR training in fixed wing but not helicopters? Doesn't make sense.

If the policy is extended to helicopters (which we don't know yet) it may actually increase business for UK FTOs in that it puts an IR(H) much more within reach of individuals.

Also, it will reduce the training costs for North Sea and other public transport operators, although things may start to follow the fixed wing world where you're expected to have a CPL/IR before you start applying for public transport jobs.

[The Nr Fairy]

buttline :

My understanding is that a fair chunk of s/e f/w is certified for flight in IFR, if not in icing.

Any s/e helicopters you're aware of ? The problem as I understand it is lack of stability - Whirlybird wrote a 160 word piece on the problem - and the Bristow 206 has SAS in it.

So, why can't we just use an ex-mil Gazelle :D

[Rotorbike]

Buttline

I believe you are incorrect as one of the UK JAA authorized schools uses a R22 for instrument flying 'consolidation' during it's combined (f)ATPL(H) IR training.

The JAA regulations state "Instrument instruction" including at least 15 hours in multi engined aircraft.

[buttline]

Rotorbike:

I didn't know that. I thought Bristow's 206 was the only SE certified and then only because it has SAS and the backup instruments.

Which school offers it? ([email protected] if you don't want to advertise).

Thanks

[Heliport]

Rotornut "Surely you don't believe that someone that has an ICAO instrument rating should have to complete the same 50 hour flight course as someone that hasn't got a rating already??"
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. It's the CAA's silly attitude which is so damaging, and will have the effect of driving people elsewhere to train.
"... maybe the CAA should give checkrides at Heathrow airport to US, Australian, South African etc with non JAA instrument tickets."
Don't give them ideas!
It must be a constant source of amazement to the CAA that non-CAA/JAA ATPLs somehow manage to fly safely across the world and land safely at LHR - even in cloud! :rolleyes:

[The Missing Piece]

I have heard that pilots who have just completed their JAA ATPL must obtain a Instrument Rating within 3 years or they have to resit their exams.

Is this true and if so how to general aviation pilots who operate VFR only fare under this ruling?

Does anyone know of anybody that has been affected by this?

[rotordk]

"must obtain a Instrument Rating within 3 years or they have to resit their exams."

only if they wish to obtain their IFR rating. Keyword in the "IFR" enviroment is recency, and that includes exams that are not 10 years old !

"Is this true and if so how to general aviation pilots who operate VFR only fare under this ruling?"

It is true ! And VFR pilot just keep it that way....VFR !

"Does anyone know of anybody that has been affected by this?"

Yup, and they had to retake their ATPL exams to get their IR exam up to date ( since there wasn't anybody offering an IR exam only...go figure ).

Must be good, since people are willing to do it twice ( or they didn't look a the experation date on their exampapers!!!!!)

[Watchoutbelow]

Now if that doesn't scare anyone who is thinking of doing a JAA ATP(H) I don't know what does.

Your gonna have to add the expense of a JAA instrument rating into your costs, also remember there is only 1 single engine IFR certified trainer that is already nearly 40 years old, once that goes, all Instrument training will have to be done on a twin engine!

Is there any future in Heli training in Europe, people just won't be able to afford to do it privately, sounds like the military is fast becoming the only option of getting your foot in the door.

[Hedski]

Mind you, that SE IR is as expensive and in some cases more so than doing IR with operators that use SE heli's/sim initially and ME for the latter stages! Not as much of a shake up as you might think!

[rotordk]

Watchoutbelow said: "Now if that doesn't scare anyone who is thinking of doing a JAA ATP(H) I don't know what does."

You still need a min. 350 hours in a multicrew environment to meet the requirements for an ATPL, and that's all IFR anyway.....

So why not line your ducks up and TAKE the IR when you still remember the practical differences between MOCA and MORA!!
Why do people take an exam ( theory ), and not following up on the practical side ( flying ), and then b*tch and moan about it afterwards........shouldn't they read the requirements BEFORE they started !!
Most driver licenses in the EU has an expiration date on the theory exams.............for a little comparison :-)

[Watchoutbelow]

RotarDk,
This three year validity thing is in very small print.
It used to be ten years.
Try and find a flight school that will tell you this until your midway through the programme.

[rotordk]

It's all neatly printed in JAR-FCL 2.495 with standard size letters.

[Watchoutbelow]

Hedski,

What is the cheapest price of that you know of and where?
Any info would be appreciated, PM if you want.

Rotardk, I never made a habit of studying JAR OPS, unless it was absoloutely necessary, call me old fashioned.
:ok: :p

[Martin1234]

The problem is that it's hard to find a training organisation that offer an IR course seperately.

It would have been so much easier if you could take the exams you wanted just by contacting your local aviation authority. It's ridiculous that you need to take "an approved course".

[pilotwolf]

Depends on if you are looking for JAA or FAA...

There was a thread on it fairly recently on here - JAA is twins only?

If you are looking for a FAA IR then drop me a PM as I know someone who will do it for you here.

PW

[Slotty]

For JAA you're looking at between £28K and £35K I'm told.

Bristows are the cheapest I believe as they can offer an IR in a B206, they have grandfather rights.

Cabair Cranfield and SAS Gloucester use twins which piles on the pennies.

[Helinut]

Don't blame JAA for the twin requirement for the IR - this is a CAA imposition in the UK. Some of the JAA countries allow single engine IFR (for private flights anyway)

[Heli vision]

Tried lasors but still can't come up with an answer.

Anyone got the definitive answer?

UK/JAA ATPL(A)/IR , CPL(H). What ground exams do I need to sit for the helicopter IR? At one point I'd got myself convinced I'd have to sit all the ATPL's again....arrgghh.....did them far too many years ago to even begin to contemplate it.:}

Answers on a postcard please..........:D

[tbc]

If you already have the CPL Written exams under your belt then that covers it I believe.

That is the case as far as we are concerned at Specialist Aviation Services if we were to do your IR (H) training.

With an IR (A) you would do 10 hrs of training for the IRT, again we would do 5 in our FNPT and then 5 in the test aircraft then the test.

[cap21]

Actually,
As far as I know Bristow is the only one that offers JAA SE-IR(H) in all of Europe, and by extension, the only one in the world.

They use a specially stabilized B206, which costs around 585 pounds per hour.

Does anyone know of anyother flight training school that offers JAA SE-IR(H), in the UK or in another country?

JAR FCL requires an IFR certificated helicopter for SE-IR training. Not that many single engine heli's come with IFR certification out of the box.

However, different countries might treat this issue differently.

So, anyone?

[Helinut]

cap21,

It was said to me third hand that there are some single engine IFR approved helicopters in France, but I have no direct knowledge.

[Heli vision]

tbc, many thanks.

I was hoping that would be the case but wasn't finding the documentation the easiest thing to interpret when taking into account fixed wing qualifications.

Would it be possible to get a ballpark per hour price for the flying and FNPT from you for future reference?

[rotordk]

Helikopter Service AB in Sweden offers SE IR on a Long Ranger....outfitted with the same stuff as Bristows

http://www.smelinkweb.com/ImageLibrary/1825/Helikopterservice.pdf

[Martin1234]

http://www.helikopterservice.se/ does offer IFR training in a B206, which is certified to fly IFR while doing instruction. They are located in Helsingborg, Sweden.

[Camp Freddie]

On another thread it was discussed that you must gain your IR within 3 years of passing your ATPL ground exams now.
under the old national system it was 7 years I believe.

But a mate of mine has got a JAR restricted CPL(H), i.e JAR licence on basis of national groundschool issued under transitional arrangements.

CAA on phone told him he would have the 7 year acceptance period because of national exams, also he has been told it is 3 years because it is JAR licence, also that for this hybrid licence there is a deadline of 31/12/04.

I have looked in JAR FCL 2, 2.495 and cannot find his particular case stated.

does anyone know the correct answer and can they give a source ????

[rotorspeed]

From personal experience I would thoroughly recommend Bristows at Norwich for the JAA IR. The standards are very high, their B206 is great for the job and overall I reckon SP heli IFR is demanding enough to prioritise quality over cost, not that I think Bristows are expensive. They are also a great bunch of guys! Norwich is a good location too, being relatively quiet but with ILS, NDB and Radar approaches. Did mine over a month which was probably about right. I found it useful too refreshing after a few months to get the rating on my twin.

[Amazon man]

Could somebody tell me what training or exemptions would be allowed for someone holding an ATPL fixed wing IR towards the granting of a helicopter IR.

Many thanks

[tbc]

Amazon man,

A 10 hrs course plus test at an approved FTO.

Could be 5 hrs in a suitably approved FNPT then 5 hrs on the actual machine that you would be being tested on.

[cap21]

tbc,

The JARs spell out that IR(A) to IR(H) is 10 hours dual plus test,
where did you find that half of that can be taken in an FNPT?


The 10 hours from JAR FCL are the minimums, a flight school would typically recommend to take a 15 hours course plus additional simulator time. They might not be inclined to reduce that because of high standards or other reasons.

[tbc]

cap 21,

As an FTO with IR (H) Approvals, we have an approved FNPT that is used within our IR (H) courses.

So we can utilise it for 5 hrs as part of the 10 hrs for the course that we are talking about.

We also use it for up to 16 hrs against the basic 50/55 hr course. 5 hrs in a 10 hrs course and 5 hrs against the 15 hrs for a QSP course.

If someone has an IR(A) already, then we would suggest that the 10 hrs course would suffice for the average trainee. If more was needed then we would reserve the right to do more, but that does not appear to be the case to date. More training against the course could be done in the FNPT as opposed to the real expensive machine, as long as we achieved the minimums iaw our approvals and JAR FCL 2.

Furthermore, in the UK the CAA requires that the FTO do a pre-test check flight (F170A) before putting a candidate up for his actual IR Test with the authority.


Any queries send me a private message.

[misterbonkers]

Hey Chaps,

Can anyone help me on the following;

1) Are there any other schools apart from Cabair offering Instructors Course for helis. Do Aeromega and Tiger Helis still offer the course?

2) With regards to the pre-test, can anyone offer any info on it and suitable people that can conduct the pretest, preferably in the North of England.

Cheers,

James

[Whirlybird]

Heliair definitely does courses, and Mike Smith can do the pre-test.

Pretty sure Tiger still does them.

Fast does, unless that's changed...but they're not in the North.

In the North...Geoff Day??? Don't know for certain.

[nickp]

Sloane definitely do - friend of mine has just finished. Oxford do but may take a bit of persuading depending on current workload!

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Just Finished course at Tiger Helicopters but they where a little busy to fit the program in so if they say three weeks bank on six also Fast still do them
Speak to Pete Bing from tiger to see if he will help regarding his course notes, he will charge no dought but but his notes are pretty good tel 0777961451 also speak to Mike Green at fast he still carrys them out, there is a guy at Blackpool Geoff somebody he carrys them out but the cost was I think a bit steep I dont have any further info on him than that though
leave your e-mail address and I can if you wish give you a further imput

regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Tiger charged Me 7220 + vat + test fee and SFH of A/C on test day blackpool quoted 10.5k+ vat sloanes said about 8.5k + vat
I went to tiger in the finish as it was close to home and it was nice not to live out of a suitcase for a while but the course went a drift due to the instructor who I have to say was good getting his fingers rapped by Fualty towers as he was not rated to carryout the instrucotr course this put pressure on tiger and it did go to rats.
However i did get a first time pass so it could not have been that bad

thank you for your comments i did learn a lot for the previous expliots and, well trying to move on those experiances
gain thanks

regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Truthfully I have have traveled the length of the country to date, and still nothing I have had people say yes come on down and talk to me and when i arrive to then be told well there may be a couple of tls pos at the weekend but you know, work on these and well this could be the start I cannot find any body who is willing to take on at present I keep trying and will again next week venture out on the tour of the operators but i can earn more back in my old trade than trying to find work as an FI I can only say i will keep trying but i have to date no good news

How about the rest of you guys any good news on your front

[Camp Freddie]

Hey Bravo 99,

what have CHC Scotia and Bristow been saying about the state of play? have either of them given any predictions about if and when they may hire again in the not too distant future?

history suggests they will, there was recruitment bubble in 1997/98 and again in 2001, so based on that rationale 2005 may be a good time, heres hoping for you

regards

C.Freddie

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Waiting for a call from Brain Ruck at Humberside tommorow with regards CHC it probably be later in the year July/august time. Bristows there last letter to me stated that there was a down turn in the Oil market but I dont think is so if you have a look at the CHC web site they seem to be winning a lot of contracts I have spoken to Wess Loran at Bond off shore last week he says that the will be recruiting about march 2005

I will keep you posted when I have spoken to Brain tommorow and go from there.

regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Camp Freddie]

Hey Bravo 99,

my understanding of the way CHC and Bristow operate is that all recruitment goes through Aberdeen and that nothing can be agreed at the local bases.

I could be wrong though ! have you been up to aberdeen to see all the companies as that seems to be the way that people get their names nearer the top of the list ?

I am suprised that instructing jobs are so hard to come by, when I got my instructor ticket in the late 90's there were 10 unemployed instructors on every street corner (well almost) and anecdotally I had heard it was much better now, but this is the time of year to get work, if you are mobile I am sure you will get work this summer of some sort.

good luck

CF

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Hi C/F

Brian at Humberside is the Base manager there and from the conversations i have had he is in aberdeen today speaking to pete Bakke the new guy that has taken over from Alan Veile at CHC in Aberdeen regarding crewing requirements

(but i could be wrong) I have also been to aberdeen the day that alans Job changed when CHC took over the european deal i think feb 4 I have emailed Pete Bakke recently

I have had a couple of enquiries regarding F I work looking in the not to distant future ( i think the last conversation this afternoon) was e-mail me in a couple of weeks so it could be looking good but i am trying to patch up the hole in the bank account at the moment so i am a little looth to travel the country on promises unless they are a little more specific.

But as in my earliar posting i will next week have bag and travel and hopefully lets see what happens

you dont happen to have any info at present of any body by chance wanting a part time full time etc F.I (r) or a charter pilot i have e-mailed phoned etc all in the BHAB book.

by the way do all companies advertise in there or is there somwhere else i can find flying schools to get contact info

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

[hughey]

Hi all

Searched training thread and found nothing regarding my query.

The JAA requires 10hrs basic instrument training as a part of the CPL(H) syllabus. I assume this means ADF, NDB and gyro instruments.

My question is - Has anybody done their 10hrs basic instrument training in Australia or NZ?

If so where?

Was it recognised in UK?


Thanks

[Grungefuttock]

I would like to know where I can do Instrument Rating training on a helicopter? Ideally I want to do maximum time on a simulator to keep the cost down. Any help appreciated.:confused:

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Hi charlie

Pas do there IR for £29995 + vat 35 hours in the as355 remaining on the fnpt 1.
they do the type rating for the twin squirrel for £3600 + vat
so total 33.6k +vat or there abouts.

These figures include everything test fees landing fees etc. ( all up to and including first test) any additional training after that required you will pay more but you should get through at that.

Also
Register your self as a company with the vat man first so you can claim the vat back.

Speak to Mike Kent Or paddy Connelly they can advise you further

Best training you will get i have to say
I hope it helps but if you want any more information PM me and i will give you my number

Sincerely

Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Pete O'Tewbe]

Speak to Helicopter Services on 01494 513166

[zygote]

Helicopter Services have been doing them for a couple of years at Wycombe Air Park, Bucks. AS355/A109. Speak to Leon Smith.

[ossie_lation]

Just intreagued to know the percentage of IR rated helicopter pilots operating, of the total of commercial pilots out there. If it was say 25% how do operators get on with our somewhat changeable weather and keeping clients satisfied? I know you can check the forcast, but it is only so accurate.
Is the number of IR rated commercial pilots increasing or decreasing bearing in mind the cost of a rating?

[Head Turner]

Rated and current probably you can count them on four hands. Just a guess. North Sea = lots, Commercial and Corporate = very few.
Just how you are going to find out is a mystery.
I'm rated but not current

[Head Turner]

Kissmysquirrel

I have work but maintaining currency is difficult and expensive when you look at the times that you will use the IR.
As most flying is VFR keeping current is not easy.

[CyclicRick]

I started out on an IR course (self funded) to get myself more qualified for a job but ran out of steam (funds) in the process after the sim hours with the light at the end of the tunnel (frustrating to say the least), it's terribly difficult to finance especially if you are between jobs, but the trend is that it is increasingly important to have one. I wish!

[Helinut]

My position is the same as Head Turner - I have the rating but it is not current. I think there are a lot out there like us in the UK.

If you consider onshore and the way that helicopters are actually used, the true value of IFR is pretty limited. The value of helicopters is to fly point to point. To make best use of IFR, you need to fly between destinations which have IFR approaches. Since helicopters rarely fly to or from such locations, you gain little.

Even if you go to all the expense of setting up IFR(pilot/aircraft/operator), it will rarely be used. It is more difficult to make the average flight IFR. Usually the weather will allow VFR - since it is easier and quicker to go VFR, this is what will usually occur. In the absence of simulators, it is therefore very difficult for the pilots to remain IFR/IMC current and, if they are not already very IFR experienced, gain such experience. You need at least 1 hr IMC per month and at least one IFR approach, to remain current for PT IFR.

It may just be worth doing to prove that you have the ability to fly VFR, but its an expensive way to demonstrate this.

I would love to get work that allowed me to gain significant IFR/IMC experience, but it seems very difficult if you don't go offshore.

[Stinger]

re your original question - sorry cannot imagine how many - or what proportion of pilots are rated.

But - it is the way the business is going. That is Corporate and Charter, Public Transport helicopter operations are, in my opinion, tending towards the twin engine, IFR capable aircraft. And instrument rated pilots are needed to fly them.

I think the industry, in UK (no experience elsewhere), is maturing, growing up (god forbid) and approaching 'stiff wing' standards of operation. Low level, marginal VFR, 'scud running' is no longer an acceptable operation. But, be careful not to assume that IFR necessarily equals 'bad weather'. The average B747 spends the vast majority of its flight in blue skies, but rarely, if ever, flies VFR. Rather, consider IFR flight as a higher level of safety for the fare paying passenger. This is most definitely not to detract from any VFR operation, my point, as above, is regarding Public Transport Ops only. Obviously a good portion of the helicopter world is involved in many other types of operation - where IFR would be irrelevant.

The same discussion can be had regarding helicopter performance. The new generation of machines just coming to market are able to demonstrate Class I performance at weights and in conditions that we have only dreamed of previously. This offers a whole new level of safety to the punter.

The point regarding airfield to airfield operations and their irrelevance to helicpter ops. is taken. But this is an important area that needs to be, and is being, addressed to further these developments.

[spinwing]

Stinger ....well said..

You are quite right ... the modern (?) trend is towards IFR capability even though your aircraft may not have to venture into IMC ... I fly mostly offshore and outside the UK (though do have a UK ATPL in my collection) and find it interesting when talking to some collegues that there can quite a lot of confusion about IFR Vs IMC and even when one can be (Spec) VFR in a Heli but be (legally) in IMC ... sometime not helped by the fact that "Heli Special VFR" minimas can be lower than some IFR minimas!!!

Ironic aint it!

Cheers

Having said that the I/F Rating IS arguably the most useful thing you can have after getting your CPL.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Hi KMS

PM sent to you ref IR

I would agree with spinwing an IR is the most usefull rating you can get and definately the one that helps you get the better Jobs

Sincerely
Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Staticdroop]

Hi,
Regarding the IR in the UK it is getting to be more of a requirement for the future especially for police and HEMS. A colleague flys corporate and has no wish or requirement for an IR, his thoughts. The problem with the IR is:
1. The cost (frightning)
2. Staying in practice when you have the licence, it is easy enough to get the licence, cost not withstanding, it is a different matter after 2 months of VFR to get in the a/c and fly an IFR flight
without any practice in the previous months. If you can get an IR, get it, if not :confused: ?

if only life was easy:\

[rotorspeed]

As someone who did the IR three years ago and has maintained it, can't agree with Helinut. The only benefit is definitely not just flying from one airfield to another with procedural approaches. There are many times when weather at destination is VFR, but en route and/or at departure point is below VFR minimums, especially with the hill ranges in the UK. The ability to fly in IMC well above is safer, more relaxing and often faster, considering time spent slowing and dodging the worst weather when flying VMC. It is also easier to keep legal, avoiding breaches of the 500ft rule. Of course you've got to know you can get down, which means careful met checks, sensible fuel and alternate planning, but only occasionally do I end up having to divert to an airield with an IFR approach procedure.

And then there are other benefits, like being able to benefit from better winds at say 5000 ft, better fuel consumption and speed, smoother flight. Night flying too becomes much safer with an IR. The interest and satisfaction is not to be under-estimated either. Biggest limitation - cold winter days and icing. In UK during Jan & Feb icing level at best leaves narrow slot above MSA and often means no IFR.

Of course you need an IFR acft to benefit from the IR, but I would thoroughly recommend doing it to anyone, though do appreciate that it does escalate the cost of flying substantially, and is often simply not affordable.

[rotorspeed]

Did mine at Bristows Norwich, using their B206. Thoroughly recommend them. Great bunch of guys and at least you emerge feeling you have had thorough enough training to lob up into a dark, wet, claggy night SP/IFR and be reasonably relaxed and professional.

[charlie s charlie]

KmS a couple of prices in your PMs

[Up & Away]

So maybe the question should be
How many commercial helicopters in the UK (excluding North Sea) and how many of those are IFR fitted??

[MaxNg]

I am

:D

And Current

:ok:

But take every opertunity to fly VFR with the very ,very comforting knowledge that when it turns sour I can and DO punch up and relax.

sorry to brag but its down to the size of my chopper.

If the wx is crap at departure or destination then you are not going either VFR or IFR assuming destination has no let down proceedure, however if wx at destination ok (cloud base above MSA or nearest published approach aid usable) then there is a greater chance that the flight will depart. this is safer and more productive for the customer.

:p

[Weasel Watcher]

Ther is a serious shortage of instrument rated pilots for onshore work. Depending on type ratings there are certainly two major onshore operators who would consider an approach from a pilot holding an IR(H) and would doubtless revalidate where necessary. It sound as though Head turner and Helinut have been asking the wrong people.

Beware the Green Death.

[Staticdroop]

The school at bristow is the best. Very proffesional with an excellent pass rate, very impotant, but as said earlier you leave having had an excellent grounding in the Dark Art:)

[boomerangben]

Nervy,

The 206 is one of a kind in the uk - the only IR rated single.

Good to get the main IR on a single and then up grade the IR to multi engine at a later date. Trying to do an IR and your first twin rating in a oner is not generally cost effective.

[Hilico]

Nervy, boomerangben is right - that 206 has grandfather rights because it's been doing it for so long. Don't expect anyone else anywhere in the UK to be able to do it, and when -II retires it'll be bad news.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

What type are you planning on doing the rating in ? Did mine in a Super Puma and it was hard, even after quite a few simulator runs and two "dress rehearsals". Outside influences can make all the difference, e.g. being kept in the hold due traffic (every hold is assessed, but you only have to do one). Good Luck !!

[Staticdroop]

KMS
I did my IR recently, with BHL at norwich, very good. I did my pre-course personal study using RANT, it allows you to learn the procedures and practice them without the hassel of physically "flying the procedure". It allows you to get your brain around the idea of procedural flying.
It is hard graft but the most enjoyable flying i have done in a while, good luck.:ok:

[verticalflight]

Excuse me, what is RANT?

[tagg]

verticalflight

Its a computer programme that helps you practise instrument flying , procedures mainly.

You can purchase a copy from Transair and other shops.

[Staticdroop]

KMS
Haven't been on this thread so sorry for the delay in responding, i already have a job i was lucky and the company paid. However with the IR in your pocket you become a much more employable person; 1. Your future company need not spend ludicrous amounts of money on you, 2. You have proved yourself in a very demanding test.
Regarding RANT it does not allow you to practice IF skills, it teaches you the procedures that are flown and the various procedural skills, then you convert that into actualy flying the a/c.

[boomerangben]

KMS,

Before I started my IR, I was told by the IR instructor to put all the books away and let them teach me their way. What they will expect is for you to be able to fly under the hood straight and level, climbing turns etc (ie what you did for you commercial GFT). The more practice you get under the hood, the easier the course will be for you. The IR is as much about management as flying so it is important to have spare brain capacity.

Good luck

[heli heroes]

hi there everyone. i was just wondering what requirements are needed to have a CAA instrument rating. im currently doing a FAA IR at helicopter advetures in titusville florida , however when i go back home we operate under CAA rules and i was just wondering if anyone knows what requirements are needed to Obtain a CAA IR.

[916]

55 hours for JAA IR from scratch, sim time allowed...15 - 40 hours depending on sim. 15, I think, to convert from another ICAO IR, but may depend on licence held. LASORS has most of the answers.
Plenty of discussion re IR elsewhere on these pages. Have a trawl around.

[54.98N]

You will also have to sit at a minimum the JAR IR theoretical exams (or ATPL exams if you're going that way). This seems to be the biggest hurdle for most people.

Cheers,

54.98N

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Why have the JAA opted for the expensive route to an IR and not followed the FAA route of allowing SE piston training? Surely they are inhibiting the pilot market or is this their intent? Experts please.....??

[Dbop]

Hey guys
I am new to this forum,wondering where to do my JAA IR rating in Europe,would like to start training in autum 06.Would prefer UK was thinking of Bristow ,but I heard the 206 is getting overhauled at that time ? True/False.
Should have two hundred and fifty hours after training with IR rating, is it possible that companies hire with that criteria.
Any information is greatly appreciated .

[Peter PanPan]

It's been a while anyone posted here but I will try:

Does anyone know where to get the most cost effective Initial Multi-Engine type rating in EASAland? Anyone familiar with some of the latest TRTOs to join the list?

[Weasel Watcher]

The Bristow school at Gloucester Staverton is the best by far. The attitude of the instructors is positive and encouraging, their experience levels cannot be matched and the end product is confident and assured. There are others who may be cheaper but it is certainly a case of getting what you pay for.

[Peter PanPan]

Thanks Weasel for your input. I am familiar with the market in the UK, was rather wondering about what's happening in continental europe, I have been looking at other JAA members such as Malta, Lithuania, Poland, Croatia... But it seems like Rotary Wing training is virtually unexistent . I have essentially come across FTOs and TRTOs that exclusively provide Fixed Wing training.
I also know about Germany, France, Belgium, Denmark and Sweden, what about the rest of EASAland??

[Weasel Watcher]

I assumed your query was intended to include the whole of Easaland and my comments remain the same.

[HillerBee]

Heliholland in the Netherlands
Algarve helicopters in Portugal (they do SE IR on the R44!)

[manfromuncle]

Algarve helicopters in Portugal (they do SE IR on the R44!)


Err, I presume you don't go IMC in this?

[Peter PanPan]

Weasel would you care to elaborate a bit? Seems to me like there is a bit more than Bristow out there.

HillerBee thanks for those two, I had never heard about Algarve Helos, there isn't much on their website really.

In the meantime I have found Helicoptersprague in Czech Republic, Superiorair in Greece and another FTO in Latvia... am still inquiring about their Initial Type ratings on ME.

[Peter PanPan]

Has anyone ever been requested a copy of the license in order to get a quote from a TRTO or FTO?!

[heliporto]

Gestair/Aerocondor (in Portugal) do SE IR(H) in a HU269 (35Hrs) + FNPT1 (15Hrs).

[charlieDontSurf]

Peter PanPan:

I finished my IR-H ME last friday in Norway at European Helicopter Center www.ehc.no (http://www.ehc.no) It concisted of 40 hrs FNPT II + 8 hrs VFR and 10 hrs IFR on the BO 105 + skilltest.
Total price is about 41,200 Euros. Incl. skilltest (2 hrs).

I'm overall satisfied with the program, and it didn't take too long to complete. I assume I spent a total of 3 weeks from start to skilltest at the school, but I did the course part-time (working fulltime and flying in my off-periodes).

That's the exact same price as they charge in Denmark on a 206L (IR-H SE) and you get a ME and a few hours more in Norway. Sweden is more expencive on the 206L.
I checked Bond, Bristow and a school in the Netherlands, and neighter could compete on price.
It's not much to save to do an FAA IR first and convert it to JAR eighter. It only takes a lot more time..

The downside is that the BO 105 isn't the easiest machine to fly IFR single-pilot (no autopilot+the machine is quite nervous), but we didn't use the autopilot in the FNPT II eighter, so the transition to the 105 wasn't bad at all. And if you have completed 60 hours without autopilot, it's a dream the day you have the luxury of that aid. You become GOOD at cross-checking!:E

[Peter PanPan]

charliedontsurf, thank you for the info, sorry for the delay in replying but I totally missed your post! Will surely look into the norwegian school and comment on it.

[Vee-r]

Has anyone done the SE IR(H) with Algarve Helicopters (http://www.algarve-helicopters.com/instrument-training.html)? I'm wondering how this would look on a CV, would it be taken seriously?

[Pandalet]

Another vote (with my wallet) for EHC - I did my IR with them over Xmas. Took about 6 weeks total, but there was a break in the middle for Xmas itself, plus some inefficiency due to people moving around a bit at that time (going on holiday, etc). They did work extra hard to pull it all together for me, though, and they bent over backwards to suit my requirements (totally unlike the UK schools, I might add).

Total cost came in around £38k (including accomodation at the school, food, and Lyin' Air flights to and fro), which was substantially cheaper than anywhere in the UK (lowest UK price I saw was £42k, and that was from a school with no instructor). UK schools were also far less accomodating in terms of meeting my requirements. If I had to make the decision again now, I'd go with EHC like a shot.

For comparison, the costs quoted above include 40 hours sim, 10 hours IFR, 8 hours VFR, and one go at the test.

Staying in Norway was great, too - fantastic people, had a great time.

Whether you need a SE IR or a ME IR depends on where you want to go and what you want to do. Last I heard, Bristow Aberdeen don't care whether your IR is SE or ME as they do the necessary training to get a SE to ME as part of the type conversion anyway; CHC and Bond require you to have a ME IR to start with. I believe there was a requirement from some of the Spanish fire companies last year for everyone to have IRs, but they were perfectly happy with SE IRs; I heard there was an outfit in Lisbon doing an IR in a 300 for around €15k. As always, YMMV - if you don't know what you need, you have more research to do before you start looking for schools!

[Clintonb]

i hope im understanding this right. ill be doing my helicopter license soon i have 0 experience but now reading this it sounds like its no point in taking the IR during the training course. so even if i do the professional program PPL to CPL with the IR that still means i cant go in a R22 or R44 in bad weather(rain,fog,cloudy days etc)

sorry if i read it wrong and the question i asked is stupid i do apologize. i just want to find out as you all know training isn't cheap so i want to know im spending my money on the correct ratings and license that i need.

Safe flying to everyone.

[Chickenhawk1]

I'm fascinated...a SE IR on the 44? Has anyone done this? More specifically, has anyone with a UK CAA CPL done this. I can't imagine they'd authorise it.

As Vee-r asked, how would that look on a CV, considering I have the AS332 co-pilot rating and a little offshore time on a non-EASA license??

[Pandalet]

Clintonb:

As has be pointed out to you many times, on many different threads, you need to decide what you want to do before you get appropriate training to do it. Although you can train IFR in a single in some places, I seriously doubt anyone anywhere would consider IFR operations in Robbos. Decide what you want to do, then work backwards to see what qualifications you need, then work out how to pay for it. Go round that loop a few times if you need to.

Chickenhawk1:

I believe it's still possible to get a SE IR added to a UK-issued license, assuming the school etc. is JAA-approved and licensed. There just aren't many JAA SE IR schools around anymore.

As above, some operators don't care whether an IR is ME or SE, as they'll provide the necessary training as a matter of course anyway. Other operators do care, and require a ME IR before they'll even look at you.

[Peter PanPan]

The Algarve outfit is actually run by a couple of Irish guys, they are said to be an approved FAA approved overseas training provider as well. I don't have any experience with them, they are definitely listed as one of the portuguese FTOs. I wouldn't worry too much about whether the UK CAA approves it or not, if someone is considering a MEIR, might as well do the whole thing in Portugal, it would certainly be cheaper than the UK.;)

[eivissa]

Anyone considering going to Algarve should check availability of aircraft first.

Not so long ago, one of their aircraft had been confiscated by Spanish police. I guess you cant blame them for something a charter client committed, but it could be a big drawback if they dont have a spare machine for the training available.

Dont get me wrong, I wish this company the best of luck and its great to see that someone can offer dirt-cheap instrument training, but its important to put the cards on the table.

[Vee-r]

Thanks for all the input. Lasors seems to make it clear that a SE IR(H) can be added to a licence. It does seem odd to me that there aren't more approved single engine schools around, but it is what it is, I guess.
I'm personally planning on building some IR time offshore in the states before coming back to the UK, a SE IR would be a lot easier to deal with financially.
I haven't yet talked to any of the big three about their take on all of this, thought I'd try asking the collective first.

[Peter PanPan]

Again, I wouldn't be concerned with it being a SEIR, if your goal is getting a MEIR, then just carry on with your Initial type rating on a ME and upgrade your IR to a MEIR, the UK CAA cannot reject the training, can they?;)

[chester2005]

Has anyone used the outfit in Portugal? Algarve helicopters

Are they still active with their JAA SE IR(H) training?

I emailed them the a few days ago and am still waiting for a reply as to cost and availability of aircraft

Cheers Chester:ok:

[Chickenhawk1]

Just wondering if there're any new reports/opinions on the Algarve company?

Chester2005: Did you ever get to talk to them?

[chester2005]

Sadly not, i never received a reply from e-mails and when i called their telephone number no one ever answered,
its a shame really because a JAA SE IR on a R44 would be probably very affordable for a lot of people and it would cover the 36 month rule for ATPL knowledge expiry!
If anyone has better luck with the Algarve company or any other offering JAA SE IRs on R44s please let me know.

Chester:ok:

[Peter PanPan]

Rumour is the outfit was busted after one of their ships plus crew got caught carrying prohibited goods :ouch: