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Heliport
27th Jan 2004, 09:38
From the Globe and Mail Epithets flying as firms vie for helicopter contract.

OTTAWAhe two helicopter companies in the running to replace Canada's fleet of Sea Kings have started a public punch-up, launching a series of allegations that their rival's aircraft will be unreliable or even unsafe.

Team Cormorant and Sikorsky are the two manufacturers bidding for the $3-billion contract, which is scheduled to be awarded in the summer.

Team Cormorant is arguing that the Sikorsky H-92 is just a prototype that has never been bought by any air force and that has never flown in a sea-based, military operation. Cormorant is publishing an ad in today's edition of the Ottawa-based Hill Times weekly denigrating the H-92 as an "unproven prototype still looking for its first purchaser."

"Canada would be the launch customer, and the introduction of a totally new and unproven aircraft is fraught with risks for the buyer, in this case the government of Canada and the men and women of the Canadian Forces," Team Cormorant's Gabriel Galleazzi said in a recent interview with industry newsletter Defence Policy Review.

Mr. Galleazzi added that the H-92 "was not designed to be a military aircraft or more specifically a maritime helicopter flying from ship decks."

Sikorsky shot back that the Cormorant is slower, costlier and still suffering from a variety of technical problems. The Canadian Forces bought 15 Cormorants in 1998 for search-and-rescue operations. The helicopters have performed some dramatic rescues, but have also suffered from a variety of problems with key pieces of equipment.

"I find it very unusual that an aircraft that first flew 20 years ago still has an availability rate here in Canada of 50 per cent," Sikorsky's Lloyd Noseworthy said in an interview. "Certainly I would be concerned as a buyer to take on 28 more aircraft that are exhibiting those kinds of problems."

Mr. Noseworthy promised that Sikorsky can deliver its first H-92 to the Canadian government within four years after the signing of a contract.

"There is no likelihood at all that this aircraft will be any later than what [the department of National Defence] is asking for," he said.

He said the H-92 is designed according to the most modern of standards.

"The [Cormorant] ad shows that they are very concerned that we have a better, safer and more cost-effective aircraft," he said.

Mr. Galleazzi, however, predicted that the H-92 would be at least three years late. Sikorsky has started production of a civilian version of the aircraft. If it wins the Canadian contract, Sikorsky will have to start producing a military version of the aircraft that can fit on the Canadian navy's frigates, with a folding tail and rotor.

The government has promised to impose penalties of up to $36-million in the case of late delivery. Cormorant argues that the maximum fine is too low. Quick delivery of the helicopters is deemed to be crucial, given the sorry state of the 40-year-old Sea King helicopters.

Sikorsky is "so early on in its development that we suspect it will be at least seven or eight years after contract award before the first maritime [H-92] is ready for delivery," Mr. Galleazzi said.

In addition, Cormorant is arguing that the Canadian government has picked the wrong method to select a winning helicopter. The contract will go to the company that offers its helicopter at the lowest cost, given that both Sikorsky and Cormorant have passed the previous technical competition.

"If the Cormorant costs $1 more than our competitor, it won't be chosen. That's because the lowest price selection process requires that the cheapest helicopter be purchased. No ifs, ands or buts -- and nothing else is compared," Cormorant said in today's ad.

Wonder what Mr Noseworthy will say tomorrow. :D

widgeon
27th Jan 2004, 18:52
I have not heard much about the European ops for the EH101 .
don't know if anyone out there can answer the following.
What are the total fleet hours for ship based aircraft ?.
What size of ship are the Italian and British versions operating from ?.

from a websearch it seems italians are operating from 5000 ton destroyer or aircraft carriers. In Uk navy website no mention is made of 101, do they operate from type 23's , website still shows lynx .

donut king
27th Jan 2004, 22:12
Canadian SAR op's have NOT phased out their Labrador helicopters because of snags with their Cormorants..... certain unreliabilities.

So, if anyone is involved with the Cormorants here, how can Team Cormorant trash the '92 as unreliable when the Cormorant windshields are cracking, winches failing.....having all been "certified" for all weather op's.

I'm confused!!!!

D.K

RotorPilot
27th Jan 2004, 23:14
What are the total fleet hours for ship based aircraft ?.

They are over 40,000 hrs now

What size of ship are the Italian and British versions operating from ?.

I don't know but the 101 was modified to fit in the Canadian Frigates without costly adaptations (they are not as high as the original ones)


I'm confused!!!!

D.K

Have you ever tried new Microsoft software :D

No system is foolproof and the fact that a windchild cracked or a winch failed is no proof that the EH101 is a bad aircraft.
The "unreliabilities" are just some components that did not live long enough as expected, but they are being subjected to extreme environment conditions that were just tested during trials and are just happening in the "Cormoran" not the EH101.

The S92 has just trials done, a completely different situation. I would like to know how many "unreliabilities" will be found in the S92 after 40,000 operational hours :hmm:



Edited to paste the second question that was made. (Somehow it was the same as the first one :-(

Lu Zuckerman
28th Jan 2004, 02:22
I would love to comment on the Cormorant on this thread relative to its’ ultimate reliability and systems safety but I was chastised by Agustas’ lawyers and threatened with a law suit. If the Canadian contributors on this forum are interested please PM me identifying yourself and your interest in the Cormorant.

:E :E

donut king
28th Jan 2004, 04:13
Can't agree with you any more!!!

We all know when a new a/c comes off the production line, there WILL be snags/ problems.....whatever. The Cormorant has this going on. It's just aviation!!!

However, to use that fact to degrade your competitor( Sikorsky), when your own a/c suffers the same problems, is very poor.

Rotorpilot, you pretty well said what I and many others here think!

D.K

P.S I DO NOT think that the Cormorant/ EH101 is a bad a/c. I was given a tour inside that beast and am very impressed by it.

29th Jan 2004, 03:05
Well, if the Cormorant is any good, it is because the British taxpayer has bankrolled the R&D required to turn the original EHI01 into what it is now.
The RN have ironed out a lot of problems with the Merlin and 28 Sqn have battled through, using the support helicopter with the comedy ramp option.
The Canadians are now the testbed for the Cormorant, so the Danes (who should get theirs in the near future) will probably benefit.
All Westalnds helicopters leak, vibrate and crack - the problem with the Cormorant is that it is mostly made of composite materials which are far more difficult to repair and nearly impossible to carry out NDT (non destructive testing) on.
Although the Danes carried out trials and convinced themselves they could live with the fierce downwash, I believe the Canadians are not impressed, the high disc loading and Berp style blades combine to make life underneath the aircraft very unpleasant - what a great SAR machine!

rjsquirrel
29th Jan 2004, 03:27
Rotorpilot said:

"The S92 has just trials done, a completely different situation. I would like to know how many "unreliabilities" will be found in the S92 after 40,000 operational hours "

comments:

1) The EH-101 banks on "Maturity" but can't stay operational. Take it one way or the other, Rotorpilot, either the EH-101 is mature at 45,000 hours or it isn't. Which one? If it is mature, then why does the customer have these problems? If it is not mature, just say so and we would agree!

2) 40,000 hours is not much at all, in any way, and is certainly not enough to brag about. A typical military fleet of one type helicopter in the US military gets 40,000 hours each MONTH. When you want to talk maturity, try for the first million hours because 45,000 is peanuts. Both aircraft are immature, I think.

3) Also, the use of 45,000 hours as proof of fitness begs the question, "How did those 45,000 hours go? Any problems?" I have heard that the EH-101 has the worst record of any development helicopter in recent history, as bad as the V-22 Tilt Rotor, which is developing a whole new technology.

4) I hear that S-92 has some kind of guaranteed cost per hour to the commercial operators, like a whole aircraft power by the hour. Does EH offer that? Anybody know the rates for either?

widgeon
29th Jan 2004, 07:18
http://www.navynews.co.uk/articles/2002/0211/1002110801.asp

Cool pics , looks like a real tight squeeze . I guess the pilot has to sleep in the machine if he is in the hangar as there is no room to open the doors LOL.

RotorPilot
29th Jan 2004, 22:40
Originally posted by donut king
However, to use that fact to degrade your competitor( Sikorsky), when your own a/c suffers the same problems, is very poor.

I didn’t degrade any competitor, let alone mine. In fact I have no competitors… :D :D :D


Originally posted by [email protected]
The Canadians are now the testbed for the Cormorant, so the Danes (who should get theirs in the near future) will probably benefit

Royal Navy (44), Royal Air Force (32) Portugal (12), Danmark (14), Japan (14), Tokyo Metropolitan Police (1), Italy (?), Canada (15) already have theirs or are about to receive them. From a total of 146 orders, 90 have already been delivered.
Some Nordic countries are considering it too. I will try to get a full list and will post it.


Originally posted by rjsquirrel
1) The EH-101 banks on "Maturity" but can't stay operational. Take it one way or the other, Rotorpilot, either the EH-101 is mature at 45,000 hours or it isn't. Which one? If it is mature, then why does the customer have these problems? If it is not mature, just say so and we would agree!

The "Sea King" and S61 with millions of op hours are probably the most mature helicopters flying today. Do you want to know the problems, the unreliabilities, the accidents, even the fatalities in Canada on those “ very mature” helicopters ?


Originally posted by rjsquirrel
2) 40,000 hours is not much at all, in any way, and is certainly not enough to brag about. A typical military fleet of one type helicopter in the US military gets 40,000 hours each MONTH. When you want to talk maturity, try for the first million hours because 45,000 is peanuts. Both aircraft are immature, I think.

I agree with you. 40k is not much, but a lot more then ZERO that is the present level of the S92.
The maritime version is not even built. I read in a recent newspaper that the Canadian version (folding tail & main rotor) has yet to be built from scratch. No wonder it has a very good record...
Please correct me if I am wrong.


Originally posted by rjsquirrel
3) Also, the use of 45,000 hours as proof of fitness begs the question, "How did those 45,000 hours go? Any problems?" I have heard that the EH-101 has the worst record of any development helicopter in recent history, as bad as the V-22 Tilt Rotor, which is developing a whole new technology.

Most of the big problems (some crashes included) were during the development phase, when the chopper was not yet in operation. I wish that phase as bad as possible, with all possible accidents during that phase so when it gets out to ops is more reliable.
Definitely you have never been involved in new model testing and operations. The Air Force that trained me and where I flew for 5 years tested in ops three different models. A small, a medium, and a big helicopter.
Just because of design flaw in one of them we lost 7 machines and had quite a number of fatalities. Only when we lost one flying over a base with everybody watching (and 7 dead) we got what was happening. We called the factory guys and told them what we had seen. They shortened 3 mm the long shaft and the tail rotor gearbox never came off in flight again. It was the increase in temp under certain conditions of full power and high heat/humidity from the long shaft that was throwing out the TRGB. Before this accident six machines were lost during operations but nobody did see anything. They just disappeared in the jungle without giving the pilot time to say anything. I didn't get killed TWICE because of two other snags ( a design flaw and a manufacturer error) just by pure chance. I had to open the bar for the entire base and foot the bill when they found out how and from what I had escaped.
New helicopters are like that. They are exaustively tested under certain conditions. Then they are taken to very far away countries, flying in extreme conditions, sometimes in situation of extreme danger are badly abused and snags start poping up here and there. Its up to us pilots to help things out.
My first big fight inside the forces was because I wanted to ground the entire fleet over a manufacturing error until the problem was solved. Non-flying big shots said it was impossible and reduced the life time of the failed component to 15 hrs when the situation was not a question of hours, but a component that was either good or bad and could fail in the first landing if it was bad, let alone after 15 hrs... Go figure !!!
It was one hell of a good machine when all the snags were dealt with. My first 1k op hrs were in that machine.


Originally posted by rjsquirrel
4) I hear that S-92 has some kind of guaranteed cost per hour to the commercial operators, like a whole aircraft power by the hour. Does EH offer that? Anybody know the rates for either?

I don’t know, and really and don’t care. I am not buying helicopters for myself and the purchase in question is not a commercial one.
As for the Forces, my opinion as a former Air Force pilot in Europe with duty time in extremely dificult circumstances with brand new models is:

"For military operations nothing but the very best! Security has no price, safety is never expensive !"

In this particular case just the number of engines was reason enough for a decision and just for $1 milion more a piece, let alone the fact that they already have 15 !!!

As the saying goes: "Those that have no money can’t have vices".

Just my $002

---

B Sousa
29th Jan 2004, 23:02
Never fly an "A" model of Anything...........

RotorPilot
29th Jan 2004, 23:11
B Sousa

I had no choice. I was drafted, conscripted, trained and sent abroad without being asked anything.

The only alternatine at the time was exile and branded traitor...

Aser
1st Feb 2004, 05:39
RotorPilot:
It was one hell of a good machine when all the snags were dealt with. My first 1k op hrs were in that machine.

And this machine was... ? ;)

RotorPilot
2nd Feb 2004, 03:30
Aser

And this machine was... ?

This is a public Forum, monitored by many people with very different minds, sometimes with short fuses... No need for names ;)

The machine in question still fly a lot (especially in third world countries) but is gradually being phased out now in NATO countries...

300,000 hrs in our fleet alone and ONE engine failure... As it happens I was a passenger in that helicopter, that was being flown by a squadron leader, and that sole "engine failure" is a big lie to save the man's promotion and career...


He didn't profit much from that lie because a few months after this he destroyed two big ones in a single accident and killed himself later while making an IFR approach to an airfield with the ADF listening to music of the local radio station ...

He was my "advanced" helicopter instructor. Good pilot but under personal stress couldn't cope with everything.

Yep, there are many ways to blame the chopper for everything and the other way around is also true... Does this make sense ? :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:


ARRIBA ESPANA !! OLE !! :ok:

---

2nd Feb 2004, 16:14
Rotor Pilot -

When the S92 has suffered from a tail rotor drive failure requiring the test crew to bale out,

When the S92 suffers from a catastrophic failure caused by the rotor brake going on in flight leading to the loss of the aircraft and crew,

When the S92 has a similar occurence with an operational crew leading to the loss of the aircraft - DESPITE having corrective maintenance carried out by the manufacturer!

Then you can slag it off and praise the Merlin/Cormorant/101


It's only real plus as a SAR aircraft is it's speed and cabin capacity - as far as being an excellent winching platform....no way Jose

Lu Zuckerman
2nd Feb 2004, 21:30
To: [email protected]

QUOTE:

When the S92 has suffered from a tail rotor drive failure requiring the test crew to bale out,

When the S92 suffers from a catastrophic failure caused by the rotor brake going on in flight leading to the loss of the aircraft and crew,

When the S92 has a similar occurence with an operational crew leading to the loss of the aircraft - DESPITE having corrective maintenance carried out by the manufacturer.

UNQUOTE:

We know what happened and if you want to dig into my previous posts on this subject you will find out why it happened.

:E :E

RotorPilot
2nd Feb 2004, 22:25
Dear Mr. Crab

If this was not a public Forum, I could provide you with some other interesting details about others very mature helicopters that have failed miserably in operations, NOT in development or testing phases.

Just as few hints:

HINTS DELETED DUE TO MODERATOR'S INTERVENTION :{ :{ :{

Nobody ever made such a thing as a "failure proof " helicopter.

As far as I am concerned, for the role of the venerable "Sea King" there is no better replacement then the Merlin.

I am not part of the decision-making team so here is, also as far as I am concerned, where this thread ends. I am not in a mood to let myself being sued by someone that might not like my opinion about this matter.

I know a thing or two about what is going on in the industry. Being around for a while ;)

Thanks anyway for expressing your views. I always appreciate to hear other people's opinions.

:ok:

--

PedalStop
4th Feb 2004, 09:41
Enough Gentlemen. There is a not very fine line between asserting one's opinion, and slurring a manufacturer or two.

Please keep the discourse on the positive side.

PedalStop, Moderator

Dave_Jackson
5th Feb 2004, 02:26
Heck.
I wish people WOULD criticize my 'new :hmm: ' helicopter.

http://www.UniCopter.com/Temporary/jumping_smile.gifAttempting jump takeoff

RotorPilot
5th Feb 2004, 22:02
Mr Moderator:

I didn't see anything written that couldn't be proved with facts and dates.
Anyway I deleted my hints...

To keep things in the positive side, let me see... :bored: :ugh: :ooh: :O :uhoh: :ouch:

Well SIKORSKY and the US101 TEAM delivered two days ago the bids for President's George W. Bush helicopter !!!!!

Now we are going to see some action. Do you all guys have helmets ???? We NEED some of those, just in case...

Mr Dave_Jackson

WHAT kind of take off is that ??? Lack of power ??? Well I know what that is too, but, lets keep things in the positive side ;) ;)
If you don't have it, don't try to use it :*
(good advice isn't it ?)

6th Feb 2004, 16:00
Rotor Pilot - the Sea King does not have one role, it has many, and of those (SAR, ASW,SH,AEW,Medevac,training etc) the only one a Merlin is better suited for is ASW - the RN are, I believe, quite happy with it now all the glitches are sorted.
However - it is not a better SAR platform except for its speed (which many other aircraft can match). The Danes convinced themselves that they could cope with the severe downwash - they talked about a doughnut of calm air under the rotor - but unless you can move the winch so it is always directly above this 'doughnut' (which will move depending on the wind strength and direction) then you will always have a big problem.

It is a sign of a weak argument and inability to address the criticisms of the 101 that you have to try to smear the competition - you really should be in politics you know.

RotorPilot
6th Feb 2004, 21:35
[email protected]

t is a sign of a weak argument and inability to address the criticisms of the 101 that you have to try to smear the competition - you really should be in politics you know.

I think it's not me that should be in politics …

I didn't smear any competition at all. Its something I never do, regardless of the circumstances.
From the details I posted in one post and the three "hints" in another, if you know something about helicopters you will have noticed that NONE of those machines are "competition" to the "Sea King" replacement. They have no size or power for it. In fact, the number of machines for those roles is so small that, to speak about "competition" is almost an overstatement.

For "maritime" roles I only see four, or let's say it, five: NH90, S92, EC725 - Cougar, NH101, and US101.

We saw here how the NH101 with a crew of 5 rescued, in very stormy seas, one by one, the 25 members of a Spanish trawler crew that was about to capsize due to ice build-up…

We also saw a rescue of injured people from another vessel that included a refuelling in mid ocean at the Ibernia oil platform and, in spite of this mid-ocean refuelling, he used up almost all of the 7 hour endurance of the helicopter. (30 minutes left)

Except for the "Sea Stallion" no other aircraft could have done those two rescues, either by by lack of pax capacity or lack of autonomy…


Please don't talk to me about doughnuts because I simply hate the stuff and is responsible for the obesity rate of North American teenagers…
I am not smearing anyone when I say that nobody as ever built a failure proof helicopter.


2004 February 5 - Sikosky sued in helicopter crash (http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ct--sikorskylawsuit0205feb05,0,6756247.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire)

2004 February 05 - Sikorsky sued in helicopter crash (http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1632358&nav=3YeXKe9y)

widgeon
7th Feb 2004, 05:40
who is this sikosky company then ?.

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=canada_home&articleID=1521675

But let's face it would they really prefer to still be flying the Labs ?. though the latest issue of flight comment shows 6 in the air at the same time.

Lu Zuckerman
7th Feb 2004, 05:59
Can anyone tell me what material (plastic) is used to make the windscreens on the Cormorant?

:confused: :E :E :confused:

Helipolarbear
7th Feb 2004, 13:48
B Sousa------ UH-60A...Now thats an 'A' model that had a serious 'hiccup' at the loss of many lives, but still went on to fly Millions of hours safely, efficiently and reliably!
The S-92 development is born out of all those 'Hawk' hour's.
It's a very impressive machine, and despite it's relatively very low hours, has a component proven track record! Igor's products are the best in the world......but then again, he had a head start!!!;) :p ...........That's my 10 cents!!!!!

RotorPilot
7th Feb 2004, 22:43
UH-60A...Now thats an 'A' model that had a serious 'hiccup' at the loss of many lives, but still went on to fly Millions of hours safely, efficiently and reliably!

All choppers start like that and go on and became very reliable machines... No big deal.

About "new" helicopters "based" on other models achievements...

When we look at the EC725 Cougar it "looks" just like an upgrade of the Puma... with all its reliability...

However it has:

New engines
New mast
New "run dry" gear box
New main rotor
New tail rotor
New set of avionics
Not sure about transmission
and God knows what else is new.

The only thing it got from the Puma (so to speak) was its looks and the engenieeering capability of the development team that has done great things in the past… :D :D :D
To jump to a conclusion that one can “draw” on reliability of other models because it is “based” on them is something that needs a very careful approach. :rolleyes:

So I don't know what the big deal is. I never expect a chopper to last forever or to be completely fail-proof, even if good maintenance is done, let alone when tight budgets get in the way.

Lu Zuckerman

I don't know what type of material the windshields are but some helicopters use this:

http://www.plasticsusa.com/pcabs.html

A cracked windshield ?? I wish every problem in helicopters would be as beningn as that. Nobody would ever die of them. Unfortunately many models have far more serious problems with far more deadly consequences, as we have been seing over the years.

If all this rant proves something is how good the Merlin is :ok: :ok: :ok:

Lu Zuckerman
8th Feb 2004, 00:52
To: RotorPilot

Polycarbonate is much stronger than Plexiglas ® in many ways but it has a very serious problem if the installation is not designed properly and that problem is stress corrosion. If the screws/bolts that hold the Polycarbonate plastic structure in place apply a compressive load and the structure is subsequently cleaned with an alkaline product the material will stress corrode and it will eventually crack to relieve the compressive load.

I first became aware of this problem while working on the Apache program when a friend of mine that worked in the engineering department of Continental Airlines contacted me. He told me that the interior decorative panels were made of Polycarbonate plastic and covered with a decorative decal. He indicated that where ever there was an attachment screw the plastic cracked. I asked him what kind of cleaning agent they used and he replied that they were using an alkaline cleaner. It just so happened that there was a consultant in the engineering department of Hughes helicopters that had a Ph.D. in glass and plastic chemistry. I asked him about my friends’ problem and he told me about the stress corrosion. He also indicated that if there were any compressive or tensile stresses the Polycarbonate would crack to relieve the stresses. Several years later while working at Agusta I became aware that the air duct on the A-109 was cracking and was constantly being replaced. It turned out it was made of Polycarbonate plastic.


:E :E

RotorPilot
8th Feb 2004, 03:13
Lu

Polycarbonate is much stronger than Plexiglas ®

I know it is.

As a matter of fact, Police bullet-proof helmets and hand shields are made of Polycarbonate. They are made in "layers", each one designed to resist one impact of a certain bullet caliber.

The trick is not to let all they "layers" go before getting the hell out of there... ;)

Strength oposes ductility. So, anything really "strong" tend to crack under stress. No big news in here.

See the diamonds they can cut anything... but hit them with even a small hammer and see the type of powder you get :D

---

Lu Zuckerman
8th Feb 2004, 04:24
To: RotorPilot

What you said is true but my point was that with its’ strength Polycarbonate when used as a transparency or any other formed part the installation must be designed correctly or you get the stress corrosion and the attendant cracking. I would suggest that if there are any Cormorant pilots on this forum they should determine if the transparencies are actually made from Polycarbonate and if so their engineering personnel should check to see how the transparencies are held in place. If the screws or bolts exert a direct compressive load on the plastic material then this could be the cause for the cracking (assuming the transparencies are of Polycarbonate material). If the transparencies are made from Polycarbonate the maintenance personnel should not use alkaline detergents to clean the airframe.

:E :E

Labpilot
8th Feb 2004, 20:53
Misters Zuckerman and RotorPilot:

The windscreens on the Cormorant are compised as follows:

- 3mm of chemically tempered outer glass
- 1.5mm of polyurethane interlayer
- 1mm polycarbonate
- 0.76mm polyurethane interlayer
- 2.1mm of chemically tempered glass
- 0.76mm polyurethane interlayer
- 1.25mm of ASP inner ply (1mm of polycarb and 0.25mm abrasion resistant layer)

Produced by Pilkington Aerospace at a cost of approximately CAD$250 000.

The engineers identified the cracking problem was the result of installation stresses, and the procedure has since been modified. To my knowledge there hasn't been a cracked w/s since the new procedure was implemented 8 months ago.

Mr. Zed: I was intrigued by your earlier offer for additional information on the unserviceabilities of the 101. However, as I am required to earn my crust with this aircraft I think it'd be detrimental to SAR decision making...and my mental health if I knew the 'whole story':uhoh:

lp

widgeon
8th Feb 2004, 21:28
Ooo love it when we get technical .

Do the windshields have heater wires embedded in them for de icing ?
Are the windshields held in place by screws or bonded ?.
On the latest Eurochoppers they are bonded and it is no small exercise to replace them .

RotorPilot
9th Feb 2004, 03:38
LabPilot

Thank you for the input. That's one can call a windshield !!! For 250 K I could pay 50% of a good new home here in TO

Zuckerman

NOW you are done !!!
How come are you going to survive the fact that, the "tremendous flaw" of the windshield was just "stress" and no problem reported after procedures changed !!! :} :} :}

Can't you find anything more serious :E :E :E

How about a fuel leak just the same type we find in any aircraft every now and then. Would it do ???

:uhoh:

chopperdr
9th Feb 2004, 04:37
Widgeon: you make it sound like you may have replaced an ec-120/130 window or two, its all in the prep and a hole boatload of patience
dr

Lu Zuckerman
9th Feb 2004, 06:23
To: RotorPilot

Can't you find anything more serious

The answer to that question is yes but I can't answer it on a public forum. I got jumped by Agustas' lawyers once and I don't want to go through that again. As I offered in a previous post I will discuss it with the Canadian members of this forum. All you have to do is PM me and identify yourself and your association with the Cormorant.

:E :E

Lu Zuckerman
9th Feb 2004, 10:30
To:

How come are you going to survive the fact that, the "tremendous flaw" of the windshield was just "stress" and no problem reported after procedures changed !!!

Labpilot said: The engineers identified the cracking problem was the result of installation stresses, and the procedure has since been modified. To my knowledge there hasn't been a cracked w/s since the new procedure was implemented 8 months ago.

Isn't that what I stated? "Polycarbonate when used as a transparency or any other formed part the installation must be designed correctly or you get the stress corrosion and the attendant cracking".

:E :E

RotorPilot
9th Feb 2004, 21:31
Zuckerman

The answer to that question is yes but I can't answer it on a public forum.
I understand perfectly well what you are saying. I was just pulling your leg, not trying to drag you into some kind of "inconvenience" :D :D
All you have to do is PM me and identify yourself and your association with the Cormorant.
I can identify myself privately. A lot of people in another forum do know who am I.
The only thing I can't do is identifying an association that simply do not exist . I do not have any association with any helicopter or helicopter manufacturer. I am a just another pilot, presently in Toronto, and looking for a job (as soon as certain matters with Canadian immigration that have been dragging for more than 2 years are solved?
However, when I started flying many moons ago, I had a stupendous school and the opportunity to fly new models and I am familiar with these type of "start-up" problems with new types of aircraft.
It's a matter of pride to me, my small anonymous contribution to help solve some of those problems and call the attention of the manufacturers technicians for other potential ones. (because we were pushing the "envelope" to its very limits too).

From the contact of those manufacturer's technicians while solving problems, I also got to know a thing or two that they do not teach in the schools and one of them is to keep the eyes wide open at all times and never completely trust one's luck no matter what :D :E :E

I never expect a new model to be without a few snags just in the same way as I donˇ¦t believe that there are fail-proof pilots either. :D :E :E

RotorPilot
18th Feb 2004, 22:06
2004 February 17



:D :D :D
For further information: or to arrange an interview, please contact:
Will McDonald, Team Cormorant, (613) 567-7466

Ontario Aerospace Industry Pursuing Maritime Helicopter Program (MHP) Opportunities (http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/February2004/17/c1041.html)

widgeon
19th Feb 2004, 06:44
Hmm how come they did not invite Lu and I LOL.

RotorPilot
19th Feb 2004, 23:35
I haven’t the slightest idea :p :p :p