BAE OR OAT - Tough decision

[jam123]

Please help!!!

Could anyone shed some light as to which of these 2 schools are better? or do they hold the same value as far as airlines are concerned. Unbiased views will be nice!

Thanks:confused:

[michaelknight]

Spent 14 months as an inmate at Jerez. Shop around is what I'd say to ya, the facilities in Jerez are good, but that's as good as it gets. The price of the course went up €10,000 when I was there, and I can't figure out why?! Because nothing changed, only the management.

When you leave they 'the coffee club' do sweet f. all for ya on the jobs front, it's every man for themselves.

BTW, it's just 'Flight Training Europe' now, sugar daddy BAe pulled the plug a few weeks back. :\

Run a Google search on Western Michigan University. I think they've restarted the JAR syllabus.

Michaelknight

[silverknapper]

Which airlines would those be? Only I'm make sure not to apply and waste everyones time trying to work for a small minded bunch. I've heard recruiters say they don't care, it's the licence that matters. So if you could tell us then it would save people from troubling the integrated airlines.

[FlyingForFun]

Surely the answer is to talk to, or even visit, both of them, and go to whichever you're most comfortable with? Each school must offer a different environment, different instructors, and so on. If you're not comfortable with your training environment, you won't learn so well. As far as airlines are concerned, I'm sure that they would rather employ you if you've come from a school where you were able to perform at your best.

FFF
----------------

[silverknapper]

Why do people get so touchy - when people make unfounded remarks about what they heard through someone. Tell us which companies prefer Integrated students or stop making stupid remarks. You say you gave an honest answer to the question. The question wasn't which type of course do companies prefer.

[jam123]

Thank you all for your comments....some interesting feedback.

I know both are very good schools but the reason why i asked was incase i dont get through the oxford APP selection, then i would have to choose the next best option.

Also, oxford tends to have the attitude that if you dont get through their APP selection tests then you should consider if you have "what it takes" to be an airline pilot. Do you agree with that??

Jam

[AIRWAY]

Some airlines prefer integrated, some prefer modular/ self-improver, others couldn't give a t#ss either way.


Hello,

This is correct, friend of mine got a job recently as an F/O for a European Airline ( to fly airbuses ), his course was a modular one he only has about 500 hours total and the majority of it is single engine.

Preferences vary.

[jam123]

Sorry for starting world war 3, but i heard BAE have sold their jerez site to some other company. Is that true or not. I know they have changed name to FTE. Do BAE still own the company and if they have sold it have standards, quality, airline views on the school, changed? Please could someone advise me....

Thanks

[michaelknight]

Same old sign and same old website, never updated. That's a clear sign of lack of attention to detail. It's always reactive thinking and never proactive by the goons in Jerez.

Michaelknight

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm, I think there is a great deal of difference between the BAe you had up at Prestwick and the one you now see in Jerez.

If I had to hand on heart choose between the two I think I would go to Kiddlington now. I've been a BAe man for some years but the rise in the Euro has killed off the price advantage. Living in Spain has its downs as well as its ups. The Oxford ownership and staff are known quantities today.

Probably they'll make a good go of it in Jerez under the new regime. But the tiny risk of them not doing so would bias me to Oxford for the time being.

That said. I don't have the slightest clue why anybody would want to do an Integrated course right now.

The numbers of Int graduates who go straight to an airline is tiny and probably no larger than those who come from the Modular route. Its just if 6 people from OATS get hired this month the news bounces around the Wannabe World at Mach3. Nobody talks about the two chaps from Bristol, the one from Bournemouth, the two from Cranfield and that girl from Leeds who all got hired in the same month.

See?

When airlines are running ab initio sponsored courses then it can be worth paying the money for an OATS, BAE, WMU, CCAT course. Why? Because people fail the course and airlines sometimes don't sign up enough cadets. They then immediately ask the CFI to nominate a couple of good self sponsored chaps to fill the gaps. If you happen to be training at the same school at the same time and roughly alongside the airline course in question - your name is in with a chance of being put forward.

You can tell me until you are blue in the face that you get better training at an Integrated course and I won't believe you. Even if you did the £20,000 premium is not worth it. Not even close.

Smaller commercial FTO's can give you a more personalised service, with better instructor and aircraft availability operating out of better airfields to more useful syllabuses. They offer lower rates, higher pass marks and better course morale in many cases. They may have no connections with major airlines but more often they do have lots of contacts in General Aviation which has provided the first commercial flying jobs to more people than the major jet airlines ever have.

As for Groundschool - enrol with OATS for that as they have are excellent. I think Bristol is better and the likes of ATA amongst others are none too shaby. Take your pick - there aren't many bad or even mediocre groundschools out there any more.

Cheers

WWW

[Jonny]

Which airlines would those be? Only I'm make sure not to apply and waste everyones time trying to work for a small minded bunch. I've heard recruiters say they don't care, it's the licence that matters. So if you could tell us then it would save people from troubling the integrated airlines

The BALPA careers website has statements from recruitment departments of various airlines outlining the requirements and giving advice etc.

The following airlines state that they will only consider low hours pilots from an integrated background: BA, Emirates,Excel,GB and flyBE. And BAC Express and Ryan Air express a preference to those from an integrated background.

How much this is adhered to i don't know, especially as you have heard otherwise but there you have it....

[jam123]

Thank you all for your responses......

One question i asked earlier which i didn't receive a response on is that oxford tends to have the attitude that if you dont get through their APP selection tests then you should consider if you have "what it takes" to be an airline pilot. Do you all agree with that??

[Send Clowns]

I agree with the generalities of what WWW says about modular/integrated. I asked a certain PPRuNer who is my opposite number in a school doing both integrated and modular training for any advantage of an integrated course to a self-sponsored student, and he did not give any answer. Although that was when BA were still considering modular graduates, I think the tiny probability of a BA is expensive at these prices! :ooh:

However, WWW could you be careful as a moderator not to seem to recommend a specific groundschool course? I quite agree that none are poor now, and appreciate you mentioning it. They are definitely different and a student who does well with us, for example, might not do well at LMU for example, who have a fairly different course. A student who liked OATS's approach might not take as well to ours. I prefer to advise that people visit a few that they think might be acceptable by location, for example, and judge for themselves.

Not adhered to strongly as far as I can tell from the people I know in who have been looking, Jonny, except perhaps by BA and Emirates, not many peoples' first job! Seems it ain't what you did it's who you know :rolleyes: Anyway these things change with the wind, let aone with crewing requirements. 18 months down the line when people have completed the course there is nothing to suggest the situation will be the same. Welcome to the vaguaries of the aviation job market :hmm:

[JohnnyPharm]

WMU seems to be a good bet at the moment for a JAA integrated ab initio.

The $ rate is so good that course + accom = £46,000approx

BAe =£66,000approx


Spend the extra £20k on a type rating.

BAe sent their sponsored students to WMU prior to 9/11, so must have a good rep with them if its BA you are looking for.

[Regis Potter]

I had heard that WMU was running down it's JAA business. I'm led to believe that they are selling off the JAA fleet in favour of concentrating on the core FAA work.

[Squak2002]

Hello,

I recently returned from a few days in Jerez. The facilities seemed excellent and the general atmosphere was great. I've also visited
the modular side of things in the UK.

I found that the major aspects of the schools were very similar. Its been done to death but the result is the same licence in just about the same time.

But i'm still strongly thinking about going to Jerez!!!
Personally... I feel that my overall employability will be better. I feel that the integrated course will help me to study and get first time passes.

Basically, your surrounded by fellow students at different stages of their training and I feel that I could learn so much.
I think that the weather will also be an important factor when it comes to crucial stages of my training.

I think the best thing to do is to take what everyone say about FTOs with a pinch of salt. They will each try to sell you "THEIR"
way of training and this is when things kick off!!!!

Anyway, nothing is decided yet, so I would appreciate any comments, good ro bad!!

Cheers,
john

[PPRuNe Towers]

Yet again it has to be forcefully pointed out that what airlines say they prefer, especially in FTO publicity material and at conferences, is often at complete odds with reality.

Actually it is utter tosh and we see them giving the sheepish glances at the experienced when they utter this crap.

Starters, what BA prefer is a nice day out, some good company, lunch and a few drinks then say what people want to hear. They aint in the market for low timers, haven't been for years and show no sign of being so in the near or middle future.

Anyone, I mean anyone care to rebut that statement?

Even more egregious is the bollocks about Emirates. Emirates, like Virgin doesn't touch low timers. Never has done. A significant proportion of their new entry ex-pat effo's are moving from the left seats of jets from well respected airlines. The rest have several years airline experience.

Again: Anyone of you out there care to naysay that??

That's last one is especially sick if it's being spouted on the Balpa website. I will be having words when I'm there in the next couple of weeks. Emirates and Virgin are second or third jobs in your career.

One of the reasons for starting this forum in the first place was to stop this nonsensical chinese whispers business. If you trust any FTO employee who allows these stories to simmer, percolate and spread you deserve everything you get.

It's bloody marketing and nothing else. Airlines and FTO's backslapping, padding their images and having a nice day out. There is an established circuit around the shows and conferences. Same faces, same presentations, same lines being pedalled. Anyone in the business more than 3 years care to pick holes in that?

Be warned, you are playing with large amounts of money and potentially missing significant savings in the present market. In the case of the large schools you are financing their overheads in keeping the glossy simulators and marketing departments ticking over in the hope of jam for them tomorrow with cadet courses from airlines.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[silverknapper]

Hear hear!

I agree. I have spoken to several trainers in the last 6 months, from EZY, Ryan, MYT, TC and Brit. Not one said they prefered iintegrated. I agree with what www says. If you have a licence and have good passes then You should be ok. Different schools have different areas of speciality. This is the beauty of the modular system. And it is not given enough credit when people get through.What you are told at your school is probably biassed.

SK

[Send Clowns]

Thanks Towers and Knapper - had recently heard the same about Britannia. Must confess I had swallowed some claim that they would not take people like me (sub-1000-hours, modular) but now I hear from one who should know that they are not the "more BA than BA" snobs I had been told. They will soon have my CV to add to the pile.

[jam123]

Prune towers,

I understand your point but i need clarifying a bit more. Are you saying it doesn'y make a slight difference if you have done the integrated or modular. Also, are you saying that the BIG schools(Ox, bae, cabair) are not worth going to??? which one would you recommend????

Jam

ps comments from all welcome!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The big schools are very very much of a muchness. The syllabuses and equipment are virtually interchangeable. Their home airfields each have their strengths and weaknesses and their staff have as often as not worked in the other camps at different times. They are all audited by the CAA to attain the same standard.

The only thing I can promise you is that if you ever breath the notion in public, that you are somehow a better pilot or more employable, because you trained at School X - then you will be identifying yourself as a total prat to the person you are trying to impress or persuade.

It probably is easier in the bigger full time schools. The reason being mostly to do with the fact that your train with a bunch of coursemates from start to finish.

This helps your morale, you learn from one anothers mistakes, you are spured on by competition and cheered up by the comaraderie.

You get the same on the Modular route but the people on your Groundschool course are probably going to be different to those on your Commercial flying course who in turn won't be the people you did your PPL flying with. So its a bit more diluted and fragmented.

That said I have seen Integrated courses where people fell out with each other and bitchy cliques developed - much to the detriment of everybodys enjoyment and performance. So sometimes you can't win.

Me - I'd go Modular, pocket the saving and try not to think too hard about those lying around the Pool in Jerez with their coursemates most evenings soaking up that lingering Andalucian sunshine.

Squak2002 - ask some searching questions about weather in Jerez. There are some interesting summer day winds, the Lavanter, Winter fogs, Summer heat bans and all manner of other weather and airspace issues. Its probably no worse than the UK but nor is it significantly better. Make sure you understand what will happen if your course is delayed due to weather - who will pick up the extra accomodation fees etc. They have always done right by courses caught out in the past with unflyable weather. Make sure you know the score for the future if you decide to sign up down there.

The best flying instructors I know of in Commercial Flying Training all currently work in small FTO's. There is some good training to be found in tatty buildings on small airfields. You just need to look hard and gather a lot of opinion.

Good luck,

WWW

[PPRuNe Towers]

Jam,

The question is does it make 20,000 quids worth of difference. That's for you folks to decide - you can buy a lot of time, currency, renewals. Unless they are part of the travelling conference circuit most interviewers don't have any understanding of what integrated or modular are. It's the licence from the CAA they want to see.

Integrated or modular anyone who doesn't spend significant time at a school away from the company of 'minders.' is daft. Different schools suit different people.

Other than the sound advice from WWW your personality, outlook and contacts are the most important thing.

It would be interesting to get feedback from the long term pros who dip in here as to whether they have ever been asked about course type, exam marks and number of attempts. I suspect that in the last couple of years wannabees have self fueled this feeding frenzy in their increasingly desperate efforts to make a low time CV stand out.

Regards
Rob

[jam123]

Thanks prune.......

[Megaton]

The question regarding first-time passes does appear on a number of application forms that I've come across in the last few weeks. I haven't got my applicatin file with me but IIRC Britannia for one asks how many attempts you've had. I have no idea whether this information actually influences their decision-making processes but I certainly hope so!

[jam123]

Can anyone give me BAE's website for their flight training in jerez.

I cant seem to find it...


Cheers:ok:

[Pilot Pete]

Rob

In answer to your request;

Yes I was asked where I had trained by my first airline employer. But to be honest I think they were trying to get me talking about myself and asking a low hours pilot about his training is probably one of the very few aviation related subjects he can talk about! It made no difference that it was modular (old Self Improver route actually).

Since then, as has been pointed out, airlines aren't really interested, it's more about your experience when you move on to subsequent jobs.

PP

[Jonny]

Jam... it's:

http://www.baesystems.es/

I've had trouble finding it myself.
Also here's the URL for WMU as a bonus just in case you haven't got it:

http://www.wmich.edu/aviation/programs/JAA/jaahome.htm as i happen to be looking at it at the mo'

[jam123]

thanks jonny!!!