Hours building: Questions, Ideas, Advice, Countries etc

[Talk Turn]

Topic probably covered before but first time here for me.
1000 hrs piston but little jet time.
Can anyone suggest a double cheap way to build hrs. any where in the world.
Thank you.

___
O-o
"`

[PurplePitot]

Try logging in Canada - Crap pay but loads of 206 time. Can,t help with an outfit i'm afraid.

[Pinger]

Talk turn, give us a clue...

Tell us what licence do you have and then we might be able to offer sensible advice.

[Talk Turn]

Fair point.
QHI
GR(H)
+700hrs instructing
R22/44
5hrs only on 206
What do you think??
Thanks

___
O-o
"`



[This message has been edited by Talk Turn (edited 09 April 2000).]

[Talk Turn]

Thanks
Sounds the sort of thing.
Going to Canada in Sept. so if anybody does know of a company I would be grateful.

[Rotorbike]

Cheapest place for 206 time is Los Angeles. You can fly traffic watch there for $110/hr which is by far the cheapest I have seen. Against it is that you won't start it and will fly from the left seat. But he that fly's gets PIC....... 562 691 2878 or [email protected]

Can't recommend the operation as I picked the information straight from Rotor and Wing.

[Talk Turn]

Thank you; I shall persue that.

[Heliflyer]

Christmas is coming up, and friends are asking me (as I'm a cheaper option) if I can take them up for a Thames Trip in the JetRanger which I hire.

I'm a PPL(H) holder.

I know I can only take a maximum of 3 pax
My question is how does the cost sharing work? I've asked two people and one says I must pay at least half (even if I have 2 or 3 pax), and the other says I must pay at least my share (that is, if I have 2 pax I pay at least 1/3, and if I have 3 pax I pay at least 1/4).

I presume landing fees and any VAT can also be split equally?

Finally, as my hunt through the ANO didn't reveal an answer (looking for a needle in a haystack), where is it in the ANO or Rules of the Air that says this.

Actually, one more "finally": does anyone have any opinions/gotchas/caveats/thoughts about cost sharing?

Darren

[Rotor Nut]

I have always operated on each person contributing their share - so for an R22 its half each, and for an R44 (with 4 pax) its a quarter each.

I seem to remember during my training reading that proportional shares are okay.

[Whirlybird]

I have certainly always heard that proportional shares are OK. Though I wouldn't like to give you an absolute guarantee.

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[ShyTorque]

I think there may have been an AIC on this subject but unfortunately I can't remember when.

[offshoreigor]

If the CAA rules are anything like Canada (CAR's) then any money recieved for the cost of the A/C or anything other would be considered to be a commercial hire. Since you hold a PPL(H) you have to be careful about how you declare any funds you recieve.

I would suggest you contact flyinglawyer for the definitive answer.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif



[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 03 December 2000).]

[Robbo Jock]

You can share the costs of the flight with your passengers as long as there's no element of profit to yourself. If you split it equally between the four of you, there's no problem. What you can split is the actual costs of the flight itself - including VAT and Landing Fees. If you own the aircraft, you can't factor in any fixed charges such as a proportion of the parking charges or whatever. If you're renting it, no problem, just split the final bill four ways.

Offshoreigor: the CAA used to have the same system - if any money or payment in kind changed hands it was considered Hire or Reward. A few years ago they realised this was too Draconian even for them so they changed the wording from "Hire or Reward" to "Valuable Consideration", thus allowing sharing of the actual costs of a flight between the passengers and Pilot, as long as the Pilot made no element of profit.

I've hunted through the CAA site for a reference, but unfortunately I can't find it, sorry.

[Dangrenade]

Robbo Jock's got a valid point... as long as you don't profit from your flying you're sorted Debsatco... I just want to know how many hrs you have to hire a J>R on a PPL

[212man]

Good news: your passengers can pay for your portion too!

See Article 130 paras 8 and 10. The only constraint on PPLs receiving "valuable consideration" (dosh to you and me) is no more than 3 pax plus pilot.

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Another day in paradise

[Heliflyer]

Dangrenade: hiring a JetRanger on a PPL just requires a type conversion, which is 5 hours plus a flight test. But for insurance reasons, I needed to have 20 hours with a safety pilot (my instructor). As soon as I'd done those 20 hours, I was able to take the JetRanger solo. In fact, this was 20 hours "turbine time", my time's split between the JetRanger and the H500 (5 hours minimum on each though for the type conversions) with a bias towards the JetRanger. As soon as I'd clocked up 20 hours total, I took the H500 and the JetRanger up in the same weekend, around Snowdonia (we were doing a mountain flying course). Also, for that first solo flight in the JetRanger I took a pax up who's first flight it was in a helicopter.

[enntwo]

212man
Are you absolutley sure that the pax can pay for the entire flight with the PPL contributing nothing?
If your right, the law must have changed because the position used to be that the PPL had to pay at least his proportion of the cost.
Four pax, pilot must pay at least 25% etc.

[Whirlybird]

I always understood the situation to be exactly as enntwo describes it. It might be worth checking this with the CAA.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[212man]

Well, I tried without success to scan the page and OCR it, so here's the long hand version:

Article 130, para 8 (ii) (bb); The proportion which such contribution bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot) bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot).

When I read this I came to my initial conclusion. Now I wouldn't like to say as it's late and I've had a busy day. Anyway, 130 is the article to read!

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Another day in paradise

[Randy_g]

Offshoreigor: I had a look at Canada's C.A.R.S. and they do allow a private pilot to recoup flying costs as in C.A.R. 401.28 (2) it reads as follows:

401.28(1) No holder of a private pilot licence shall act as the pilot of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3) or (4), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight where

(a) the holder is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) the holder conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) the holder carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) the reimbursement

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing costs for fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

However, I recommend that anyone wanting to charge for flying should make sure that they read all regulations, and ensure that they follow all that apply.

I just wanted to clarify things. :)

Randy_G

[Robbo Jock]

Thanks 212man. Looking at the article, in Heliflyer's case,

Article 130, para 8 (ii) (bb); The proportion which such contribution [I'll assume this means the passenger's contribution] bears to the total direct costs of the flight shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot)[3] bears to the number of persons carried on the flight (including the pilot) [4].

Therefore, the pax can't pay more than 3/4 of the cost of the flight.

[212man]

In retrospect, I tend to agree with Robbo. It would seem logical, though I wouldn't necessarily expect that to have any bearing!

I responded initially after a quick search late at night and I must admit in daylight the wording looks a little different. Sorry to have misled anyone.

Hope the pax enjoy the flight heliflyer.

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Another day in paradise

[The Nr Fairy]

All :

I'm based in the UK, and need to do a serious amount of hour building in the coming year - 90 hours to get to the 155 to go on the modular CPL(H) course. I then intend doing the FI course ( I'll have over 300TT by then ) so some other person can pay for my flying !!

At some point I want to go abroad, as prices are around the £100 per hour mark, rather than the £160 I'm paying at the moment. However does anyone know of any LEGAL arrangement in use in the UK to provide cheap but SAFE helicopter hour building.

I know muffin ( still out there Richard ? ) asked about a 100hr lease some time ago, anyone else got any bright ideas ?

[Vfrpilotpb]

What sort of eggbeater are you flying for £160.00 per hr, you can do your module CPL(H) in the R22 at a lot less cost ,allegedly
Piston broke!

[Vfrpilotpb]

What sort of eggbeater are you flying for £160.00 per hr, you can do your module CPL(H) in the R22 at a lot less cost ,allegedly

get your self in with a Heli school to do all their dogsbody work and repositionings , ala free hours but at a personal cost Freedom gone)
Piston broke!

[The Nr Fairy]

Where I fly, because it's limited at the moment, it costs me about £145 +VAT an hour wet - actually £170ish, so a tab more than what I said originally. Dual is £220ish. That IS in an R22.

I'm hoping the company I work for will either IPO ( unlikely in the current climate ) or get bought and the new owners will want to keep people on, in which case I might have enough readies to do the rest of the stuff in one hit.

Where have you heard about "allegedly lots less", £145+VAT seems to be the going rate at most clubs ?

[This message has been edited by The Nr Fairy (edited 16 March 2001).]

[Rotorbike]

Totally unoffically; try the cash option. Many years ago I flew a fair portion of my UK flight training VAT free. Always pay in cash and ask for the discount!!! Before you ask, they're not in business any more...

[SPS]

My solution was to sell all my toys, buy an R22, rent it to the school I was with and fly myself as often as possible.

The Heli was in pristine condition, its owner only sold it because the 10 yr rebuild was 22 months away.It had 800 hrs remaining of the (then) 2000 hr life.

I was lucky - No major costs, rental income paid for insurance and because the Heli became well known for being a nice one it was easy to sell. Adverts in Helidata get the phone ringing like crazy. Spring/summer in UK = big market for an R22. (Only buy a Beta if you have the choice.)

I sold it with 480 hrs remaining and dropped only 2k on the original price.I had spent around 5k on fuel and so on.

160 hrs in my book = 7k. Want some? Buy one! :)

[Whirlybird]

Nr Fairy,

I'm trying to understand your first post - it sounds as though you're saying you need 90 hours to get to 155, but after the CPL course (30 hours or thereabouts, isn't it?) you'll have 300 hours TT. That doesn't make sense. If I've understood right, you only need 155 hours TT to do the CPL course, including 50 or 55 (can't remember which) P1. Are you thinking you need 155 P1? I'm fairly sure you don't.

Quite a few schools give discounts for payment of a certain number of hours in advance - not a huge amount, but it helps. And if you haven't had a Career Development Loan earlier on, get one - up to £8000 from the government, interest free for two years, sometimes extendable to three.

I'm hoping to go the same route as you if I can pass these damned ground exams so will watch with interest for other ideas.

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[The Nr Fairy]

Whirly :

It's not my maths which is wrong, just that I omitted my 150 or so fixed wing hours. That, plus 135 plus 30 on the modular course takes me over the magic 300 TT for entry to the FI course.

My understanding of the UK CPL(H) (Restricted) is that it's 155 HELICOPTER hours required for the modular course - check documents on the CAA SRG web site at http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/pld/fcl/fcl_information.asp for full details.

As for the finances, although I'm earning well, I've already got a mortgage and large loan so adding another one doesn't seem financially prudent.

P.S. just found the JAR CPL(H) requirements - http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/SRG_FCL_Gid26.pdf

AND, I've only just seen ( don't remember it being in the document before ) if you have a PPL(A) then it's only 135 helicopter hours including 30 P1.

[This message has been edited by The Nr Fairy (edited 18 March 2001).]

[Whirlybird]

Nr Fairy,

Thank you!!!! :) :) :) :) :)

I didn't know you could count f/w hours towards the 300 TT. I'm in roughly the same position as you - 120 hours rotary, approx 180 f/w. So IF I can get through these ground exams, do a summer's flying, do the commercial course...

Wow!!!!!!! This is beginning to look like it might be possible.

Except I might end up running out of cash too http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

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Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[The Nr Fairy]

Whirly :

I've wanted to fly helicopters since I was very young. Now I'm in a position to get a CPL(H) I'd almost sell my young son to the highest bidder !!

BTW, is there anyone out there who's done ferrying for Sloane to Lisbon / Majorca ? Could you drop me a line at my email - I'm after some info about it.

[ravenx]

hmm interesting. I was only discussing the option of buying an R-22 leasing it to a flying school / letting people use it for self fly hire etc and our figures seemed to work out. We managed to get our own flying down to £65 / hr wet and still have a residual in the aircraft after 2 years - is this realistic? Also on one thread there are loads of posts saying - no commerical heli jobs don't bother and then on this one we are all trying to get CPL(H)'s - who's got it right?

[gokel]

there is an interesting and in the rotor & wing magazine about building hour in bell 206 110$ hour. The ad says call bill at 562-691-2878 or email [email protected] It is located in Southern California
I hope this help.

[Flying Lawyer]

If you're interested in cheap turbine time in the States, I'd highly recommend 'Commander Chuck' Street who flies a news/traffic helicopter for one of the LA radio stations. He covers the entire LA area, from Orange County in the South to Malibu in the North.
I spent a week flying his JetRanger a few years ago and, flying 6-9am, and 3-5pm, did 25 hours in a week.
Great fun - breathtaking views and interesting flying, including following a Police pursuit.
Although much of the flying is S&L, our 'off-air' breaks provided plenty of opportunities to practise pinnacle and confined area landings.

http://www.commanderchuck.com/_borders/Npjetrgr.jpg

Chuck doesn't advertise 'hours building'. I paid $100 per hour towards the cost of the flight.
If I can find his e-mail address, I'll post it.
If you want more information, please e-mail me. I'd be happy to introduce you.

Tudor Owen



[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 25 March 2001).]

[Heliport]

Chuck Street's website is at www.commanderchuck.com (http://www.commanderchuck.com)
His e-mail address is [email protected]

[Rotorbike]

Flying Lawyer you have opened the big can of worms of who is PIC.

As Commander Chuck Street hasn't got a CFI licence who is??? (don't believe he has)

You are flying a flight for hire but it's only Part 91. But if you only have a UK Private can you legally do the flying???

As all PIC is flown in the left seat then who is PIC???

UK regulations require all PIC time to be flown from the commanders seat. I will admit that in the US that isn't the case.

If he has a CFI and you're PIC from the right then all I have written is wrong. Except the Part that he is getting paid from the flight.

I'm sure you will tell me that its all legal but as a qualified US CFI we never recommended it to the European students.

Heard that the UK used to delete time flown on the news flights from total time for a Commercial licence application.

[Flying Lawyer]

Rotorbike
I don't think Chuck is an instructor, and the rest of what you say may be right.
He owns the JetRanger, is a journalist and, I think, receives payment for his news/traffic reports not for flying/supplying the helicopter

I have CAA and FAA private licences, and did it for the experience not to build hours towards a commercial licence.
Anyone who needs to count the hours towards a CPL should obviously check the legal position with the CAA.

Re Left seat/Right seat.
My understanding, from informal discussions with the CAA, is that they take a sensible approach to this issue. eg They know PPLs building hours often share a helicopter and, provided they each log only the time they flew, that time can be logged as P1.
I stress that comes from informal discussions.

[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 25 March 2001).]

[Wannabe in Miami]

New user here.I saw a reply to someone looking to build turbine time,that in Los Angeles,California,there was a company that would provide you a B206 at $110.00 per hour.The person replying was a fellow going by the nickname of ROTORBIKE.He mentioned also something about "traffic watch".Was this just a comment as to what would someone be doing while building up the time?Or,was this a condition to using the helo at such low rates.Msg posted back in 1999,probably "rotorbike" is not around to comment.Anybody else heard about this?Thanks.

[B Sousa]

Probably the best way out there today, seems still to get the instructors rating and build the time on someone elses dime.

[t'aint natural]

The Los Angeles racket is that you get to fly the KIIS-FM traffic spotting B206 of Commander Chuck Street, who is a local radio personality. Commander Chuck keeps a website at www.commanderchuck.com. (http://www.commanderchuck.com.) He used to fly with one hand and transmit with the other. I don't know who hit on the idea but it's a good one... defray the cost of your traffic spotter by having an hours-builder pay $110 to fly it. I'm told Commander Chuck is excellent company, reads a book almopst the whole time and only puts it down to transmit his traffic report. One guy I heard of got 26 hours in in a week.

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"Fair is foul, foul is fair,
Hover through the fog and filthy air..." Macbeth, Act 1 Scene 1

[RW-1]

I was only hoping somethiong like that would start up over here in SoFlo ... I'd pay $110 for the time.

------------------
Marc

[JohnJ]

I flew last week with Commander Chuck, on the early slot 06:00-09:00. He also flies an evening one 16:00-18:00 He flies out of Fullerton and it is now $120/hr. You fly the freeways etc as traffic watch would suggest but also between reports get the chance to do something else, I got to do a good pinnacle landing as well as a few approaches. I think he normally tries to do about 6 approaches. Yes you can book a whole week, but I think you have to book well in advance to get such a block. I had a great time, my first of hopefully many turbine hours. Having zero previous TT didn't effect anything, if he is confident with you he reads a book and even makes a point of telling you that.

[GulfPLt]

Try Temsco Helicopters in Alaska. I know some people with your qualifications that got a break there flying AStars. Not the best pay, but at least you're not paying them. Also try TeX-Air Helicopters in Houston. They fly offshore.

[whatsarunway]

Do tempsco only take green card holders??

[GulfPLt]

Don't know about the green card. Here's their # and fax:

907-225-5141 Fax: 907-225-2340

[collective bias]

Thanks Gulf-plt and talk turn,
I am also heading north next yr and appreciate the info.
I've got 1000hrs piston B47 + 1500hrs S-76 co-pilot...any further ideas?

[Flying Lawyer]

I'd highly recommend Chuck Street ("Commander Chuck") at Fullerton.
I flew with him for a week in 1997, and gained a great deal of useful experience operating the JetRanger - and also had a wonderful time.
Chuck knows those with JetRanger ratings want to do more than just fly around straight and level for three hours - we did lots of pinnacle and confined area landings in between broadcasts and when taking breaks.
Fullerton is a little off the beaten track, not far from the Knott's Berry Farm theme park, but Chuck flies all over the LA area, up to Malibu in the North and down to Orange County in the South.
If you go, make sure you land at the LAX helipad which is on the roof of a building near the Control Tower. The approach is unusual - and the departure (low level to the Ocean) is spectacular.
If you're lucky, you'll get the odd Police chase to follow. Resist the temptation to try to follow too closely what's happening on the ground - the airspace around you will suddenly be filled not only with law enforcement helicopters, but every other news helicopter in the area trying to get the best shot. It gets busy!
I flew both the (early) morning and evening shifts, and did 26 hours in the week. It was a good learning experience, enormous fun, and I'd recommend it. :)

[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 29 May 2001).]

[ravenx]

I heard some "runmours" about the CAA not being very keen about counting the hours flown in this way - something about them only wanting to count 50% of them or something like that. Of course if you're not worried about what the CAA think of your hours (if you're US based or whatever) then who cares - but something to be aware of or at least look into before you commit the cash

[Flying Lawyer]

ravenx
I've also heard it said that the CAA will not allow hours flown as PiC from the left seat to be counted as P1/PiC. I don't know whether this rumour accurately reflects the CAA's position.
I flew the traffic patrol as a cheap way of gaining experience on the JetRanger, and of operating a helicopter in a professional environment – I wasn't building hours towards a licence or rating, and I still had the benefit of the additional experience whether or not the time counted towards my total hours.
However, if the objective is 'hours-building' and logging the time is important, then I agree it would be wise to make enquiries.

I have discussed the issue with friends at the CAA but (I stress) only on an informal basis. Their reaction was that the rumour couldn't possibly be true, and that "surely" no-one would take such a technical point. Hmmm! I'm not sure I share their confidence.

I have a vague recollection that the FAA doesn't draw any distinction based upon the seat occupied and the PiC is allowed to log the hours provided he/she genuinely is the PiC. Warning: it's no more than a recollection, is unconfirmed and may be wrong!
If it is correct, then it would seem illogical for the CAA to refuse to allow the hours as P1 if flown in an N-reg aircraft in the States in accordance with FAA rules. Further warning: The fact that it may be illogical doesn't mean the CAA won't disallow the hours! :)


[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 31 May 2001).]

[Robsibk]

To Flying Lawyer!

I would love to gain hours and experience on that way!
Is it possible to fly with Commander Chuck having a Canadian CPL?

Thank's
Roberto

[Amazon man]

Can anybody give me some info on the above operator ie address and telephone number.

I am interested in the Jetranger hour building on the Kiss FM helicopter they operate.

Any help will be appreciated

[Flying Lawyer]

You'll find all the information you need, including contact numbers/e-mail address, if you click here: Commander Chuck's website (http://www.commanderchuck.com)

Cardinal is owned by Chuck Street who as 'Commander Chuck' provides traffic reports for Kiss FM, one of the LA radio stations.
The helicopter, a JetRanger, is based at Fullerton airfield (not far from Nott's Berry Farm/DisneyLand if you know the area).
You fly two slots a day (6-9 am and 3-5 pm) and cover a large area, South to Orange County and North to Malibu.
'Comfort breaks' during the shifts are taken at various sites which give you practice of helipad, pinnacle and confined area landings.
You can book up as many slots as you want or, as I did, the full week. You'll probably need to book well in advance - it's very popular.
I did this in 1997, and recommend it. Chuck is a great guy, and the flying (and sight-seeing) is fun.

One word of caution.
Some people say that, because you fly from the Left seat, the CAA won't count the hours as P1. The contrary argument is that because you're flying an 'N' Reg a/c on your FAA endorsement, the FAA Regs apply and the hours can be counted.
I've not checked the Regs to see which argument is correct because I did it to gain experience, and wasn't hours building for a licence/rating.
It seems from your post that the hours building aspect is important so you might want to check the position with someone who knows the CAA Regs. (Cardinal won't be able to answer this question.)

http://www.commanderchuck.com/_borders/Njrngrlg.jpg

PS
If you contact Chuck, pleae give him my regards. I was there in 1997.)

Tudor Owen

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Flying Lawyer ]

[JohnJ]

I flew with Commander Chuck earlier this year. I haven't heard of one person not enjoying it. Even if it doesn't count towards qualifying hours, it's worth doing it, IMHO. More info in Tudor's coverage in August's issue of Pilot, there is also a report in the October issue of Today'sPILOT. Feel free to e-mail me for contact numbers etc.

[Amazon man]

To both Tudor Owen and JohnJ thank you very much for your replies, the information is greatly appreciated.

[Rigsby]

Is there any thruth in the Myth that certain Companies allow Low time pilots to hour build whilst operating the News/traffic flights in California?? If so would anyone be kind enough to forward any details and contacts they have please... I am most interested in the Jetranger and the R44 (If thy use them??)


Thanks in advance...

:)

[RW-1]

don't recall the reocurring link in justhelicopters.com, but yes, there are a couple.

You still have to pay for the time however.

[Flying Lawyer]

It's no myth.
I know of two places where hoursbuilding is available.
Try Commander Chuck (http://www.commanderchuck.com) who flies a JetRanger out of Fullerton Airport which is not far from Disneyland / Notts Berry Farm.
There is another place at Van Nuys. I can't remember the name, but I'm sure someone will know.
Both cover the same area.
I flew with Chuck a few years ago. The cost then was $100 per hour.

A word of caution.
Some people say the CAA will not allow the hours towards a licence/rating because you fly from the right seat. I didn't research the point because I did it to build experience, not hours.
I don't know whether this is true or a myth. It sounds absurd, but that doesn't mean ........ etc etc ;)

[Helinut]

The other option at Van Nuys can be arranged through Group 3 Aviation - talk to Peter Lowry. It is also JetRanger flying. I spent a couple of weeks there a number of years ago. Well worth while but I believe Flying Lawyer is correct that the CAA take the view that it cannot count as PIC time (as far as UK requirements are concerned). In their view only one person can count a flight as PIC - normally the one who signs the techlog

[B Sousa]

Here in the States, there are many ways to skin a cat......Sounds like the question originates in the UK, so flying here is not the first hurdle. Getting here with the blessing of INS(Immigration) and the persmission to fly/work so is first. Then one can take a Foreign license down to the FAA and recieve FREE of Charge a US FAA Private Helicopters License based on ones Current Foreign license. Then comes the fun stuff with INS again. You must have a work permit to fly for hire also a US Commerical Pilots License. Question is if your not getting paid, then do you need a commercial or work permit??? Its a gray area.. Either way if you want the time you can figure out how.
Fly lawyer, jump on in.......

[Michael Jupp]

[email protected]
is the traffic watch out of fullerton
$135.00 per hour
he says the time is P1 but also haven't got round to asking CAA

[Whirlybird]

As some of you know, I'm off to LA in April to do some flying. I've arranged to do the B206 conversion and some flying with the chap who does Traffic Watch (Chuck someone-or-other) who Flying Lawyer and others have flown with. What I need to know is what the CAA says about hours gained that way. I need another 95.6 hours before I can do an instructors course in the UK. They don't necessarily have to be PIC; I have nearly enough of those anyway. I've asked around, and heard everything from "The CAA aren't going to know are they?" to "You can't log them as P1" to "The CAA probably know the registration of that helicopter by now, so will they allow them at all?".

I'm not desperately worried, as it's a cheap way to learn to fly a B206 anyway, and sounds like lots of fun. But since I do need the hours, does anyone know what the situation is. I don't want to ask the CAA directly, as I'm not sure I should draw their attention to a situation they just possibly don't know about. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

By the way, if anyone fancies meeting up when I'm over there, e-mail me.

[advancing_blade]

Hi Whirly

I spoke directly to FCL (Mike) and was told that it wasn't a problem. I actually need the PIC time, and Mike said that as long as it's an ICAO member and your designated as PIC then it counts. I am writing to the CAA to request this in writing as there has been lots of talk about limiting this kind of activity. As your not carrying PAX for reward or getting paid, then surely you can be PIC after your 206 check ride, on the FAA PPL-H that you get free from the FSDO on the strength of your CPL-H

[Whirlybird]

advancing blade,

Thanks for that. If you get it in writing from the CAA, any chance you could send me a copy, just in case I need it. If you e-mail me, I'll send you my snail mail address.

[Rotorbike]

Two little points to think about here.

1) You fly from the left seat, not the right.

2) Chuck doesn't have a CFI licence.

Well that is how it used to be!!!

Also you will need to be 206 type rated on your UK licence in order to even consider logging it. (unless you have a full US licence which isn't type specific)

The folk story is many years old and as I heard it the CAA refused to allow hours in the US logged during traffic reporting due to flying left seat and that two pilots can't log PIC. Chuck was logging it but didn't have a CFI licence and he was in the right seat so as soon as he logged you couldn't.

Things to think about: The people that made this rule could have left the CAA.

He that holds the controls should be P1 whatever anyone says regardless of which side they sit..... But the CAA might think differently.

I have no hard facts and know many Europeans that have done it. All have had no problems with the CAA or employers but don't do too many hours as then it will get questioned.

[buttline]

I've been through all of Whirlybird's and others threads about flying with Chuck and Phillipe on the 206 News copter / tourist helicopter hours building program in LA. Seems like great experience and fun (thanks for the info Whirly and Flying Lawyer). I'm already in the U.S. so thinking about going for it myself.

However, the issue over whether or not there'd be problems logging the time as P1 is a concern as I'm aiming to do 100+hrs so I will definitely want them to count - anyone had a problem with this or got a definitive answer / piece of paper from the CAA saying it's ok?

I've (almost) got a JAA CPL(H) (and FAA PPLH) with 206 type rating and did 40hrs dual in the 206 for my CPL, including the GFT so they'd be just hoursbuilding, not part of my CPL hours.

If there are problems, do you think just converting to an FAA CPL(H) first would solve them?

Someone (seniorish) from the CAA SRG group is out moderating our exams next week as we're the first batch of Heli ATP exam takers so I'll see what he has to say and will let you know...

Cheers

[Rotorbike]

This is a grey area which has never had a definitive answer, only rumour and could possibly be better left that way and not bothering a CAA offical over. Hate for them to make a negative ruling!!!

The problem in the past stemed from guys doing the flying without a type rating and then claiming it as P1.

Under US regulations, either PPL or CPL a type isn't required but CAA/JAA does require one.

In your situation you have a JAA type rating for a 206 and a US PPL(H), plus will fly the aircraft with controls in YOUR hands, so you can log it as P1 on either licence, regardless of which seat you sit in.

Can't personally see the point in doing over 100 hours though, as on your return to the UK it is fairly well known that this is little more than an hour builder and won't put you in any superior position in a job hunt than someone with a bare CPL(H). Can't exactly put 'employer' LA trafficwatch on your resume to cover the hours!!!

In my humble opinion your money would be better spent on hunting for your first position.

[Helinut]

As far as the UK CAA acceptance of these hours is concerned I know of lots of people who have done the flying, logged the time as P1 and the CAA have not pulled them up for it. I have heard second hand of people who have been pulled up for it and whose logged P1 time has been disallowed.

Pre JAR FCL, CAP 53 and 54 had a page that set out (fairly) clearly what you could count. At that stage one of the key features (as far as the CAA were conerned) was that only one pilot could claim P1 for a flight. I believe that under other "rulemakers" a number of pilots can claim P1 for a flight.

I wouldn't recommend asking the CAA directly cos you know what answer you will get - the one that makes it more expensive for you!

[Nick Lappos]

Rotorbike,

That need to be type rated in a Bell 206 before you can log PIC time is another distinction between the US and "East Atlantic" thinking.

In the US, an FAA type rating Board determines if the helicopter has strange enough characteristics to warrant requiring a separate type rating. Only if the aircraft is above 12,500 pounds GW is one absolutely established. I know of no helo below 12,500 pounds that requires a type rating.

For Private and Commercial pilots, they can move between virtually all helicopters below 12,500 pounds without a formal Type rating. Only insurance regulations require a check-out by an IP, there is no FAA compulsion to do so, and the check-out is not applied to your pilot's certificate, it is meerly logged.

The exception is those who fly PT 135 and PT 127, where their Ops Manuals always require a type check, and thus a type rating.

[buttline]

Rotorbike,

Thanks - I need another 100 hours before I could go on the FI course anyway (300 total), it's also cheaper than renting an R22 ($120/hour compared to $165/hour).

I'm getting the impression the hours are not seen as pucker (geniune) in some way, even by prospective employers. I would have thought this would be more valuable experience than hopping in an R22 for 100 hours doing the $200 hamburger? Is that not so..?

[Helinut]

buttline,

I think how people view hours flown depends upon what work you are wanting to do.

Almost all my hours building towards my FI rating was in a R22, but I was going to instruct on the R22 and do my FI course on it too. It therefore made sense that the majority of my time was R22 time. As I recall, I found the FI course and early instruction very stretching and needed all the R22 experience I could get.

If you are to start instructing have as much time as you can get on what you are to instruct on.

[RW-1]

Rotorbike,

To add to Nick's answer on US stuff, while I could gain all the time I wanted with Capt Street, etc. and claim those hours, it would basically be meaningless (IMO) unless it consisted of my doing the starts/shutdowns/emerg procedures, etc. It's great to log the Turbine time, but everyone out there would know it was just that, flying it. Yes, it builds hours, but that's all.

(I'll allow that I don't know what he will allow you to do etc. But stand by my assertion of what is important about the time logged)

I would say that to me, if I were to do that, I'd get that time in the air, then get the factory school out of the way too.

[pilotwolf]

I haven't flown with Chuck for a while but from what I recall it's no starts, but plenty of pinnacle work and all the other general flying things.

But.. I think if you are prepared to spend lots of $$ with him and he is happy with you then he becomes much more relaxed and will let you do the starts...

Why not drop him an email from his website?

[Heliport]

Chuck Street adapts to what you want to do, and the amount of flying you do with him.

Some PPLs are happy to do a few trips just flying around getting cheap turbine time in a different environment, wonderful scenery, great sightseeing and, best of all, the freedom of flying under sensible FAA regs without all the restrictions the CAA imposes in the UK.

But, if you show you can fly a B206 and want to do more than sightseeing, he'll adapt. Pinnacle landings, confined area, rooftop helipads etc.

Do the CAA allow the hours?
Sensible advice already given, so I won't repeat it.
I've not heard of anyone whose hours with either of the ENG operators in LA have been disallowed by the CAA. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've not heard.

Is it useful time?
Matter of opinion. I think it is. Why not try it for a week and decide for yourself?
But, plan ahead. They are both usually heavily booked.

[rotorboy]

Can someone explain how this is legal. I have alwyas wondered this. How can a ppl or someone "hour building" fly while the operator is flying for hire or reward. You are flying an aricraft that is getting paid to do commerical work. Seems kind of grey area to me...

But what do I know

mayby ill get the copy of the FAR's that is holding the door open at the helibase and see what I can find.

Anyone else ever wondered this?


RB

[Nick Lappos]

rotorboy,
The key is that those operators are Part 91 operations, because they take no external compensation for the use of the helo, they do no charter, carry no passengers, etc. For example, all the airframe manufacturers operate under Part 91.

The guest pilots only share in the expenses, they do not pay airfare.

[buttline]

Nick,

I can see how that applies to the traffic news copter but I believe one of them is also a tourist flight machine.....

Quote from the website: "xxxxxxx offers private and commercial pilots the opportunity to fly the BELL 206 Jet Ranger BIII during sightseeing tours in Los Angeles"

I took this to mean I'd fly it with tourists in the back. It's highly unlikely that the only payload is the hourbuilding pilot at $120/hour..

Cheers,
Barry

[Rotorbike]

Nonstop sightseeing flights conducted with aircraft having a passenger seat configuration of 30 or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, that begin and end at the same airport, and are conducted within a 25 statute mile radius of that airport also come under Part 91.

[Abominable Snowman]

Hello Rotorheads,

I’m currently a student commercial pilot (the lowest of the low) studying in Australia. I’m also a freelance journalist exiled from the dot com world of up and permanently down. Anyway I’m working on an article for the industry’s greatest pub, Heli-Ops regarding hours building options for low hour (<500) commercial pilots internationally. The goal of the article is to provide an overview of the options available and also to come up with some new ideas for both operators and pilots. To focus the potential discussion a bit my initial questions are this: Does the ultra-competitive nature of the industry make paid or work for free hours building options practically mandatory for a majority of new pilots and if so what are some of the better options? Do any operators have in-house hours building programs and if so who? Finally, any fresh ideas for building hours that would benefit both pilots and operators? Thanks so much for your time and ideas.

[kissmysquirrel]

Okay, there is no easy way to build hours for a low time cpl unless you're lucky and get work straight away with someone prepared to give you a break. I think that in this industry, a lot of it is "who you know, not what you know".
Going the "flying for free" route will only get you a bad name. The reason being why should an employer pay someone to fly when someone will do it for free, which has the knock on effect of lower pay rates or no pay rates! Guaranteed to make you popular in the helicopter community.
Secondly, in the UK it has cost me probably £50k+, to get my licences, ratings etc and if someone comes along and stops me earning money with that licence,(if I ever manage to find work) I wouldn't be happy!!!!!!

I personally wouldn't advise anyone to go for a commercial licence at the minute but that's my personal opinion right now, unless of course, daddy just happens to own a helicopter and lets you have use of it to hour build. Oh, and buys you an AOC too.

[Arraitch]

Didn't you say you had a COMMERCIAL licence? Then what is this garbage about working for free??? A professional pilot is just that - it is a profession, for which he/she is PAID. You have skills and qualifications that set you apart from the private pilot. You are not an amateur who is worth nothing.

Pilots who prostitute the industry by working for free are not doing anybody any favours. If you work for free to build your hours, and then put your hand out for money because you have the time up, I would hope that your "employer" would boot you out the door and take on another free-working prostitute.

And "employers" who use free workers might think they are getting a bargain, but in effect they are getting the lowest standard of workmanship from somebody who places no value on their abilities.

I understand that it is tough to get a start, but if you lower your standards this far, you are making life tougher for everybody else, including people coming along after you.

Many a journalist has received free training in return for pushing a perticular school. That in effect is a wage. Please don't continue past your training qualifications in this fashion.:(

[RW-1]

Gee, a double edged sword for us low timers.

Ask for the pay, even at a reasonable level, and likely someone else will get the position for less, or for free.

If I take a job that pays me 35,000/yr, I'll get chastized by those who "wouldn't take that job, I'm worth more than that" types with 7K hours, to whom the job isn't targeted to to begin with.

From my point of view that 35K job is slightly more than I make now, PLUS I'm now paid TO fly.

I'm not knocking your point Arraitch, it is valid. However "but in effect they are getting the lowest standard of workmanship from somebody" is something I take issue to, when I fly, I will fly to the best of my abilities, no matter what I make doing it. If the workmanship is substandard, it is due to being accepted for the job that is beyond my scope. See below.

Positions are open all over the place, and no one to fill them, this makes the operators lower the time requirements, and then people scream how badly it will become with lower time guys and gals doing that job, etc.

So AS, I believe your article has to be bent towards the operators out there. They will have to come up with an alternative for the gang like me who are up and coming. We are the ones who eventually will be filling those positions. No one has yet come up with any viable alternatives, my stance is a return to internships that payoff for operator and upcomng pilot alike.

[ClearBlueWater]

AS, I too am one of those ultra low time CPL (H) who despite the 'professional qualification' will not be looked at by an AOC holder, unlike any other profession where once qualified, well you're qualified and therefore fit to practise! I'm fully aware of the insurance problems faced by AOC holders in respect of employing low time pilots but it is hard to believe that low timers are not being taken of advantage of to some degree. I beleive the bottom line is that since year dot most helo pilots have come from a military background and therefore civilian employers have become accustomed to having highly experienced pilots dropped into their lap for free. There are few (I can't think of (M)any) professions or trades where highly qualified and experienced individuals come to commercial companies for free but this is not within the experience of variation operators. Time will change that but the change will be instigated by acceptance from the employers rather than more pleading from the low timers. If that means employers have to charge customers more to cover the higher insurance costs then that's what they'll have to do. Provided that helo operators are all playing the same game then the increase in price will be industry wide and no one will be unduly effected.

So, in essence I agree with RW-1 that the question should be answered by the operators rather than the junior pilots. If there were any tried and tested methods for junior pilots to build hours we'd all know about them by now. I don't hear anyone shouting?

[The Nr Fairy]

One sure-fire method for hour building is to continue the money-pit approach.

Another is (or was, don't know if it still happens), like the place I learnt at in Sydney (PPL), for a new CPL to do the odd flying jobs to get to 200 hours, then you got onto the R44 and B206.

John Fraser did well that way, as did the other guys, but I don't know if it is guaranteed.

[Edit: I did my PPL there, saw the new CPL(H)s doing this, didn't do it myself].

[Randy_g]

Nr that's how most get their start here in the Great White North. You go to an operator, and do whatever you can to get the job. As a low-timer, it's your attitude that will get you hired, not your skill. Since most with 100 hrs (requirement here) have similar skill levels, there needs to be something that sets you apart from the next person. That something is your attitude. The operator wants to see what kind of person you are before he sets you lose with a 1/2 million $ piece of equipment. Can you put in a long day, do you get along with others, will you complain about the smallest thing, and can you plan your activities so that the important things get done.

One of the hardest things to do, is to get your first job. Keep at it, and keep a positive attitude. Good luck to all, we were all in your shoes once upon a time.

Cheers

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/naughty.gif Randy_G

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/bear_eating_picnic_md_clr.gif

[BlenderPilot]

Profesional Pilots, means you are get paid, not that you are trying to sustain a hobby.

I think the best way is to go to the Tuna boats, CFI, of better, go to operators who need copilots.

I got my first job as a copilot in Bell 212's doing offshore and powerline patrol with only 37.5 R22 hours and a fixed wing CPL (never flown in a piston since) and I didn't get it by looking into the internet or reading magazines, I got it by going to the airport everyday, meeting people, making lots of phone calls, being persistent, and being willing to move to where the opportunities are, if you live in a place where to be a helicopter pilot you need to work for free or almost, then you are maybe in the wrong place, or you selected the wrong profession for the time being.

Mis 2 centavos

[md 600 driver]

arraitch
well then i must be one of them people you dont like

i opoerate a helicopter for my buisness only and make journeys all over the uk i frequently allow pilots to fly as p1 accompanying me and i have never paid them

it seems that proffesional pilots like you now frown on this in the future i will use private pilots i fly 300 hrs per yr

what happens if one of these private pilots gets enough turbine time and gets a comercial licence and takes your job

well your call.

regards

[handyandyuk]

Why do I feel an urge to move closer to Tadcaster?

I have to admit during my training, one or two pilots of many hours did suggest if I got the chance, I might consider 'Cancelled cost' flights. As a PPL I obviously couldn't get paid as a pilot, however if the operator chose to charge me exactly what he would have paid me, then fair's fair. It may only be repositioning and generally less than an hour at a time, but it all helps.

[John Bicker]

Randy G is the closest here.

As for the "commercial pilot" stance even the regulations in most countries state "may operate an aircraft". There is no right, it is a privilege that you may exercise. An operator is within his rights to employ you on whatever basis he wishes, and that you concur with, inside any legal requirements regarding employment.

The sources for increasing flight experience are many and some have already been discussed.

The problem remains for operators that low time pilot's are expensive to buy and also sell. The issue here is that it is easier to get a start with an operator who has an easily sold product. Of course competition cuts both ways here. An operator who has differentiated himself to get a competitive advantage has also the problem of substantiating that advantage with pilots with the correct experience to his customers.

The "commercial pilot licence" is just a common denominator and is not really the issue.

I think a lot of pilot's with low time should have put more effort into trying to get a job i.e. know or speak to somebody who may have sympathy to their interests prior to commencing training or even get a position within a helicopter company to test the water prior to shelling out. In some cases if all goes well and you show aptitude and skills that the operator is interested in he may even pay for your training. This is from personal experience and I know of many others.

If you are up to the standards of an operator you will get a job. Read that carefully - it has many connotations.

AS - on the same issue - consider I may be an operator, tell me WHY you are training for a commercial pilot licence?

http://<IMG SRC="McDonalds.gif" WIDTH="180" HEIGHT="180">

[Arraitch]

For MD 600 Driver:
No, you are not an employer - you are a kindly person who allows others to share your good fortune by getting some otherwise-unavailable stick time. You don't appear to be an AOC holder doing commercial work, and the low-timer (is he endorsed on type?) is not actually tasked to perform a job, just enjoy the ride.

The "employers" I was referring to are the mustering types who expect a queue of low-timers to be willing to be hangar slaves. There is one chopper, and only one pilot gets to fly it. He is not paid, and he is expected to sign up for the dole in the nearest town to get enough money to live. When this pilot gets some time up or is sufficiently disgruntled with the situation, he moves on and the next slave moves into his still-warm seat.

[pohm1]

Why not train with a school that offers a real prospect of work with them after qualification? All schools that I contacted told me that they would try to help in the search for work, but only Professional Helicopter Services offered the chance to work at their tourism operation in the Northern Territory. Not everyone gets the opportunity, but in the last 12 months, 5 newly qualified students have been given their first break in the industry flying B206/B206L and H500. If you are going to give A$45000 to someone it makes sense to give it someone who can offer a bit more than a licence with "pilot" written on it and their best wishes for the future. Do some research before you hand over your hard earned cash, and speak to those outside the training environment to find out about which schools are preferred by the bigger employers.

[kissmysquirrel]

and just quickly following the previous post, I did my instructors rating with a well known operator not far from Northampton and there was wording in their advert about job placement assistance etc etc.

As for MD600's post, I see nothing wrong in what he is doing as it isn't a commercial operation!! It's something which you don't see much of these days, especially in the helicopter industry...Something for nothing!!!

[vorticey]

i guessed you did your licence the easy way (RAAF) you do not know how hard it is at all.
not very many operators will employ first time pilots strait up as has been said already, you can nearly count them on one hand.
and with 70 (dont know the exact number) pilots a month coming out of training schools across australia a month, how can they all get paid jobs?
as you can guess i slaved for a short time to get my foot in the door, in front of all of the ones that wanted pay. and so the fellas get to know you and you do a few jobs (and flights) here and there, now im a paid employee of the company.
i dont know about the mustering company your talking about but the ones i know will employ low time pilots WITH RINGER EXPERIENCE wich means, you guessed it, working on a station for a while. you dont need money while your on the station because they feed and house you anyway.

BLENDERPILOT you must be the luckiest pilot i know to get that job strait up
you said >I got it by going to the airport everyday, meeting people, making lots of phone calls, being persistent, and being willing to move to where the opportunities are.
it sounds like you did this all for free to me.

[BlenderPilot]

Well I don't know if I did it for free or not, but I recovered what I spent for my FAA - CPL's w/IFR/ME ratings within 18 months of getting them.

I have never believed in luck much, I think "making your own luck" is much better. Before I went for my CPL I did a lot of asking and made sure I was going to have a decent job in a professional environment, I analized the FACTS, and went for it.

I didn't just blindly go and spend a bunch of money in something with limited possibilities, with potential of being mistreated, no job security, and to make less money than a skilled truck driver like it happens in some countries.

If it doesn't make sense in your present environment to become a helicopter pilot because because of working conditions and opportunities, then go for something else, be a journalist, demolitions expert, pimp, who knows.

[Arraitch]

Vorticey:
Nice wind-up about "doing it the esay way in the RAAF."

Were you referring to the pilot training being easy, or getting a job?

We could start a whole new thread on this one...:cool:

[the coyote]

Arraitch, is Vorticey right? Are you ex military or by another means of training where you didn't pay your own cash to get it? How did you get your first job?

Sadly, I think it is a case of beggars can't be choosers. If you've paid $40K of your own hard earned money (like I did) and you passionately want to work as a pilot and climb the tree, you WILL do just about anything that helps your prospects initially. When people are hungry they do anything for food eh?

In a perfect world we all wish it were otherwise, but I see it more as an apprenticeship, where the REALITY is you do have to pay your dues at the start. Talk to any chippy, plumber, boiler maker etc and they will have a similar story I reckon about their beginnings and working for nothing.

For all you low time pilots getting your foot in the door, now is not the time to change the world and draw the moral high ground. That is a privelige of experience. Keep your chin up, your head level, set your own limits about what you will and won't do and work at it with enthusiasm. Dont give up and remember: it is possible to have integrity even if you know you may be getting shafted.

Good luck!

[vorticey]

i was talking about not having to save the money or take time off work to do your licence, not having to look for your first job (which probably would involve some degree of grovelling). during your first years of being a chopper pilot, flying turbine aircraft with an instrument rating thown in and when your finished the "hard yards" step stait into somthing that you've been flying for a long time already.

these arnt actual facts, just a guess. you may be able to straighten some parts out a bit, but am i close?

;)

[ClearBlueWater]

BlenderPilot

I'm impressed by any man that can get back CPL/ME/IFR in 18 months.

Fairly accurate figures for UK are

CPL - GBP 45K
IFR - GBP 30K+ (could easily be increased significantly)
ME - GBP 5K (bare minimum type rating costs)

[BlenderPilot]

If I got it back in 18 months it was because it only cost me about 28,000 USD to get CPL/A IFR, ME plus 36.5 hrs. in an R22 which got me a CPL/H Add On to my license.

Having a CPL/H even with only 36.5 hrs. in helicopters, I was elegible to work as a copilot in PROTEXA (GOM/Mexican operator) on a Bell 212, needles to say when I got in the 212 for the first time, having only flown R22's, I WAS ABSOLUTELY IMPRESSED BY THE SIZE, THE NOISE, I COULDN'T BELIVE THE SIZE OF THE BLADES! I remember they wanted to see if I could't at least hover the thing, keep it straight and level, so "yeyo" said once we were airborne . . . . "you've got the controls" When we landed I was soo tense, I was sweating, and I couldn't fold my knees from being soo tense.

[Randy_g]

As I see it, if the company has an AOC and is getting paid for the flight, then you as an employee must be paid appropriately.

There are many jobs in our industry where you operate from a camp where the customer feeds, and houses you. Does that mean that you should be paid less because of it ?? Last time I checked the mortgage, (or rent) still has to be paid. The bank might also like you to pay back the loan you took out to get into this glamorous occupation. :D

MD600 it's too bad there weren't more people around who will help the inexperienced. Good on ya !! :)

Cheers

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/naughty.gif Randy_G

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/bear_eating_picnic_md_clr.gif

[moosp]

What do you trainers recommend to PPL pilots who are hours building and they have around 200 hours? What to do with their flight time?

Do we just fly GFA (General f... about) or are there some exercises that you suggest to develop flying skills? Many of us hope one day to get a CPL, so what can we do to work towards the flying skills aspect of that when we are out there solo?

Is it worth doing a sling load/low flying/mountain course, or are those for the more experienced (say 500 hours) guys?

We want to improve in this profession but sometimes the direction is not clear.

Thanks

[Shawn Coyle]

Personally, I would try to get time on as many different types as you can. This will help to develop a 'strategy of control' that will stand you in good stead for years to come.
Second thing is to look at some of the exercises that are done in the helicopter competitions- (I organized the first Middle Wallop competition in 1982, and could send you some of the things that were done there- all perfectly safe, but challenging).
If you don't have a fixed wing rating, then I'd also get one of those as a way to broaden horizons, and also get a FW IFR rating (cheaper than helicopters).
That should keep you busy enough!
Shawn Coyle

[Dai Chopper]

I find the best way of honing the skills is to fly with someone else (who knows what they are on about!) whenever possible. Most people will not fly as accurately or perform to their best when solo.

At your stage I wouldn't get too involved with the mountains but under-flung toads are good for building on the basics of hover skills and thinking about power restrictions. I enjoyed some competition flying for a while and, as the previous poster says, these exercises also help the basics. Accurate position and time keeping for navigation, ground cushion work and advanced transitions flown as well as you can can't hurt. With the latter keep at the confined area exercises as well. Try to get someone else (an instructor) to give you exercises that can be tried in your local area. If your area is the NW give me a call!!

Good luck

Dai (A2 retired)

[moosp]

Thank you for your replies.

Shawn,
I'd appreciate an idea of some of the competition excercises if you have the time, email or posted here. Nothing flashy, I still need many more hours to hone the basics.

I've done the FW/IR for the last 35 years and so am delighted to be starting real flying. Different types sounds a good direction, as I am Robinson restricted right now- I should get more hairy of chest and try a Bell 47 or similar and learn to use a throttle...

DC
Its true isn't it? -we give ourselves more slack when we fly solo compared to flying with a peer or an instructor, however strong our self discipline. Good advice, and I appreciate your offer in the NW but I fly at 22N114E which is a bit off the M62 corridor.

Anyone got a bit of advice about slope landings that isn't in the standard text book? Its harder than most instructors think it is...:o


.

[headsethair]

I'm in a similar position - about the same hours. I did a 8 hours of night training last Oct/Nov and I've done the Instrument course. Both of those sharpened my flying and made me less tense & more accurate. The other thing I do is to fly with an instructor for an hour whenever possible - be put through the mill and challenged. Much better than the annual check.

I am aiming to get JAR CPL - when they can be bothered to have heli-specific ground exams. Which, I understand is not too far away. Could someone post some guidlines here about the current state of play on CPL (H) - the CAA site doesn't help.

Lastly, when the vis is bad and the wind close to limits - go do some airfield hovering with an instructor. Cleanses the senses!

[Dai Chopper]

moosp

Slopes are not for landing on - you fly the ac all the time, you just happen to have yourself in a 0mm hover with a strange attitude. Gently does it and start again if not happy. I feel abuse coming on here but what the heck - trim. There, I've said it and it wasn't so bad!

Dai

[SFIM]

moosp,

when i first got my PPL, i ws advised by my instructor to practice every exercise in the PPL syllabus until i could do all of them to a good standard, and for the ones where it is not a good idea to do them on your own e.g. Engine off landings, and forced landings etc, to hire an instructor for 1 hour every 10-20 or so.

it worked for me I went from " any old height, any old speed" to professional pilot and high time instructor

re sloping ground, get the upslope skid on the ground stationary in the hover i.e locked and pause for a couple of seconds before you continue, keep flying it all the time, many people get one skid down and then just stop flying it and " dump" the lever

as far as instrument Flying training goes, beware of getting a night rating before your CPL, i think you have to repeat all the IF you did for it when you do your CPL, I dont think you get a credit for any IF you have done before the CPL course, which could have significant costs, as you need 10 hours IF for a night rating these days I believe.

hope this helps

[moosp]

Thank you for your ideas folks. Like Uncle Roger says, ARIAS (Always remembered instructor's advice) stick in the memory better than a dry flying manual and this seems a good forum to share them.

I can recommend to low time pilots the Low Level course that is a CPL add on in Australia. Spending an hour at 50 knots below 10' improves skills and confidence greatly- and is mega fun. The whole course is 5 hours, and saves lives.

[swissboy]

hello,

i'm a young pilot from switzerland finishing my cpl(h) down in new zealand. on my way downunder i stop over in Los Angeles for some days and would like to do some pic building hours in a turbine helicopter.

Does anyone have a contact number/address?

there is obiously a guy called "bill" over there, but he's quite booked out.

thankyou very much for any hints

snowy greetings from switzerland/zurich!

stephan

[Figure Of Merit]

HeliStream are based 30 mins south at John Wayne ( yes I know!!...) international.

They're very professional- I can recommend them. +1 714 662 3163

[CRAN]

I flew about 55hrs at long beach with Rainbowair and have nothing but good things to say about them. They are based at long beach, and have three R22 Beta's - hard working machines, but well maintained. There are a couple of other operators at Long Beach, US Helicopters being one of them. I have also heard good things about them and my current FBO in the UK uses US Helicopters for the annual LA Heli trip.

Hope this helps
CRAN

www.rainbowair.com

www.ushelicopters.com

[Scrole]

Does anyone know of anybody that offers hour bulding programs...i.e reduced rates in a helicopter for a pilot with a licence so they can build hours such as news/radio pilots etc? Thanks for the help.

[Flying Lawyer]

Chuck Street in Los Angeles.
Chuck is based at Fullerton (near Anaheim). Commander Chuck. (http://www.commanderchuck.com)
I paid about $100 per hour for JetRanger time, but that was a few years ago.
The rate's probably gone up but he's open to negotation depending upon how many hours you do. I did 5 hours a day for 5 days: 6-9 am and 3-5 pm. You fly all over LA, South to Orange County and North to Malibu.

http://www.commanderchuck.com/HOLLYSM_small.JPG http://www.commanderchuck.com/photogallery/photo041/CRBEACH1.JPG http://www.commanderchuck.com/photogallery/photo041/DWNTWNS2.JPG

It's mainly straight & level which is of limited value, but Chuck will adapt to what you want to do. We did a few confined area, pinnacle, and roof-top helipad landings each day.

There's another place at Van Nuys. I can't remember the name now but I'm sure someone will post it.

I'm only a PPL and was doing it for fun. I think it's probably of very limited value if you're building hours to be a professional pilot. Lots of cheap hours in your logbook, but are you really building useful experience?

[Flying Lawyer]

Just had a thought ....... the place for hours building at Van Nuys might be called Group 3 Aviation (or very similar).

[The Nr Fairy]

Group 3 Aviation (http://www.group3aviation.com)'s web site.

[Scrole]

thanks guys, will check out these options,

[Whirlybird]

The place in Van Nuys is Heliclass, tel 1 661 253 1437, www.heliclass.com. It's run by a chap called Phillippe Lesourd, and I flew with him for a week in April 2002. He was charging $120/hr; Chuck at the same time was $160/hr. He'll find accommodation for you too, if you want. It's 6-9am and 4-6 pm, Mon-Fri, and mainly straight and level flying, though you can go and do other stuff when there's time. It's good fun, and probably worth doing for a week, though not too much longer.

[Scrole]

thanks Whirlybird,
I think I'll go and check it out and do a weeks flying with one of them see how it goes.

[whirlycopter]

I flew with Phillipe in April this year - I agree with all that Whirlybird has said - except that he was charging $130/hr and he's booked up way in advance.

Good fun for a week, but Van Nuys is pretty grim and the Budweiser factory stinks!

Think I would have gone stir crazy if I had spent more than a week there tho..

[dave_smith99]

has anyone any experience of this? i am possibly looking to hire a r22 for 4-6 weeks to do about 80 hours

dave

[Dantruck]

Only one place to go down here...

Call Luis Rollan at Intercopters +34 607 325 386 (www.intercopters.com)

He's at Cuatro Vientos (Four Winds) airport, Madrid, and tell him Dan Coughlan sent you.

Luis has a couple of R22's and a R44 available, I think. He'll sort you out. He's also the Robinson importer/maintainer, so you should find all you need.

Let me know if you're flying down south; Malaga, Granada, etc, and I'll show you where all the good bars are, too.
Good luck
Dan

[Palma]

Not sure about the rules re "advertising" on PPrune, but if Luis Rollan can be mentioned, then I would like to suggest Sloane Helicopters SL in Mallorca who have R22s and R44s and all the CAA Approvals. Contact Mark Corbett - +34 971 794132 / +34 639 702411(Mobile). They are a wholly owned subsidiary of Sloane Helicopters in UK.

[bill bridge]

hi ppl,

I have just started my ppl(h) on my way to getting cpl(h). once i have got my ppl(h) is it ok to build all the hours in the us before doing my cpl(h) course in the uk? I am trying to get my cost down as much as possible for obvious reasons.

Many thanks,

bill

[The Nr Fairy]

bill:

Unless you've got a rich recently deceased relative, or are leaving the stockbroking profession to go into helicopters, then the US - or Oz - is one of the best places to get value for money., and as long as the hours are P1 on a type you have in your logbook, then it's all kosher.

I did it this way, so did a fair few others who frequent here. The rules have slightly changed though - check "Wannabees" because there's CAA / FAA forms and the like you need before you arrive.

[Roxy]

Can Anyone help me out here please??
I need to build another 100 hours towards my UK Rotary Instructors course as cheap as possible.
Can anyone please give me some suggestions/hints/prices in say Florida or anywhere else that I can buy some time. R22 would probably be the cheapest. Will have my UK CPLH by then with the ink still Wet!
Thanks again.


Brian

[In the swamp]

Brian

There is a companey that charges $130 hr (wet) self fly. I am in the UK for 2 weeks on vacation but will post the number when I get back to the office. They advertise in most of the usual places

Brian (also)

[achildofthesky]

Brian:

Send me an email, as I have an R-22B that I offer block time in wet ($130.00) or dry ($110.00) for a 100 hour block. Let me know if you are seriously interested. You could reasonably expect to fly off 100 hours in about a month...


Regards,
Patty
[email protected]

[Roxy]

Nervy, Child of the Sky's and In the swamp.
Thanks vry much guys for your help and I will pass on the info to my buddy who will get in touch.
Cheers for now and have a safe one!

Brian

[Hedski]

Roxy,
check your PM's!
:cool:

[ArcherII]

If most helicopter pilot employers, such as EMS for example, required thousands of helicopter hours, i.e. 3000+ hours...and knowing the cost of each hour in a helicopter...how someone with a CPL(H) and some 100 hours or so of heli time get to 2 or 3 thousands hours?

CFI(H) positions seem to be extremely rare...as for every 30 fixed-wing flight schools there is one heli flight school....

so where di you pull the 3000 hours from to get that job flying a turbine heli with a reasonable pay?

In fixed-wing world, 9 out of 10 aspiring pilots will become CFIs and build anywhere from 1000 to 2000 hours before going for charter/corporate/regional jobs flying turbines...

seems in the heli world is even more hellish ;)

Archer

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Of course it's more helllish. The helicopter industry is tiny in comparison to the fixed-wing industry. For an all-civilian pilot who wants to fly helicopters for money, we have fewer and less clearly defined paths to "success." Much of it depends on a combination of luck, timing, and your personal ability to be charming and pursuasive. Throw in dedication, talent, a higher-than-average skill level and a willingness to relocate anywhere/anytime, and you might find the going fairly easy. But even "fairly easy" is a relative and controversial term.

For many of us, if at the beginning of our careers we really sat down and thought about *how* we were going to do it, we never would've even tried. And in a way, if you have to ask, perhaps you shouldn't. Try, that is. If you have that burning passion to fly helicopters for a living, then by God just go do it. Get your CFI, and your double-I and get to work. But know up front that it's a crapshoot. Remember too that 1,000 hours will not come overnight. It won't take one year, either. It'll take two, three or four years. Maybe more!

In our industry, opportunities generally don't fall in your lap. (Actually, they do, but not often enough to count on.) But you have to be in the game. Like I said, if you worry too much you will get discouraged. So take the long view. The really long view.

And network! Go out and actually meet working helicopter pilots. Become friends with them.

I met a young fixed-wing pilot once who desperately (and idiotically) wanted to become me. He sort of latched on to me, pumping me for industry info. He had spunk, and an infinite level of enthusiasm for helicopters. And although we did not live anywhere near each other, we became friends. Once he got his r/w CFI, he was having trouble finding a job. I happened to come across a flight school that taught in airplanes, an R-22 and a Bell 47.

Out of the blue, I wrote to the owner of the school. I did not know whether they had any openings, but since I know this industry it was a fairly safe bet that they either did or would shortly. I introduced and described myself, and respectfully asked the owner that if he was ever in need of an instructor, he consider my young friend. This elicited a positive response, and my friend did go to work for them where he was able to build some really solid experience. This job lead to another job, which lead to... You get the picture.

The bottom line is that there are no easy ways to do it. You cast your lot and roll the dice. Most likely, you'll be stuck for years as a CFI as my friend was (even with my "help"). I wish it were not so. I wish that there was a more encouraging message we could give aspiring helicopter pilots who want this as a career. But unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

Good luck!

[ArcherII]

Well, for the past 2 years I've been gaining information on fixed-wing career paths, and the rotary wing thing is just a curiosity, perhaps one day an option.

I just find the path for both fixed wing, and more so rotary wing very amazing, discouraging and wrong.

Young people who want to live their lives in the skies...have to put up with immense sums of money for training and only a couple of paths to their dream job.

Becoming an instructor, fixed wing or rotary, seems the only choice, as that's the only way to get hired with a couple hundred hours...

The requirements are out there. Most employers that have decent pay checks require thousands of hours of flight time, whether fixed or rotary.

The only employers that will hire at a couple of hundred hours are flight schools.

So the only path seems, pay $$$ to train, bust your but, get hired as a CFI, whether you like it or not, live miserably for several years trying to build time and working nearly for free to finally end up to where you want to be (maybe), when you are old, in debt, and lived miserably for a lot of precious, irrecuperable years...

seems best thing to do is find a non-flying job, make some money, but an R22 or a Piper, build time over the years...and then apply for jobs once you have those thousands of hours...

[Nigel Osborn]

The best and cheapest way because of the comments above, is to join the military and get paid to learn. Yes, you do require a certain education level and age bracket but you do get top training and experience for your after life and paid well to get it.
If it doesn't suit, then you have to do what is said above.:D

[ShyTorque]

I agree with all the above comments.

The industry is still able to find pilots with the required experience and hours because there are sufficient ex-mil guys who are still of a working age.

This has been made worse by the airlines laying off pilots over the past couple of years, some of whom were previously flying the rigs, so these chaps have "become available" to the rotary market once more.

Also, the North Sea is a diminished market, reducing the demand for pilots. It is this that has driven the UK market for some years.

Because of the prevailing short-term profit mentality, rotary employers have been obliged and able to reduce their ab-initio training input to vitually nil and have had no reason to take on low-timers.

However, certainly in the UK market, the pilot population is ageing so this cannot continue indefinitely.

Although my comments are really in context of the UK, I think this is a world trend.

[ArcherII]

so what are the biggest helicopter markets?

I read that EMS is the "majors" of helicopters...

I also see that Fire, Law Enforcement, and News/Traffic watch are pretty big too...

off shore rig-related jobs are popular too it seems.

what about corporate? private helicopter oweners, either businesses or individuals?

[overpitched]

Another way to look at it is that with a bare commercial licence you don't have the skills, ability or experience to actually do many of the jobs available in the aviation industry.

Hours flown is a quantitive measure of your experience and it is all well and good to dream about glamour jobs and wish they were available straight up but the bottom line is that someone without the experience would find themselves in a world of trouble from day one in almost all helicopter operations. From what I have seen and experienced it takes a lot of time, caution, nurturing and a bit of luck to get a pilot to an acceptable commercial level once they have started with their first employer.

It is a good idea to make sure that your bucket of experience is quite full before your bucket of luck is empty.

If you a looking to stay alive and have a long and prosperous aviation career you need to deal with the fact that when you first get that commercial licence you don't know sh1t !!. I can't think of too many worthwhile careers in any industry where you get to start at the top.

[Gomer Pylot]

I think offshore is the largest segment - there are close to 1000 helicopters operating in the Gulf of Mexico. EMS is close to that size, perhaps, but it's spread out.

The way most of us built time is with the military. We're starting to see more civilian-only pilots, but they're still the vast minority. It costs so much to get a helicopter commercial license, and then get the required time, that it's just not economically viable, given the low pay involved. Helicopter pilots, on average, make less than fixed-wing pilots.

Absolutely the only reason I'm flying helicopters is the free training and flight time I got from my rich uncle, Sam. All I had to give in return was several years of being a target for people who didn't like U.S. military helicopters.

[autosync]

I can't see why anybody would have a problem with that type of flying, it is exposure to real life commercial work, I suppose a fair bit would be just straight and level, and OGE hovering but isn't most flying.

Operators who are willing to employ pipe line patrolers but have a grudge against Traffic watch pilots need there head examined, they are legit hours as far as I know, for most people it is the only realistic way to build turbine time, would you sooner let someone loose with 50 hours on a 206 and commercial work or somebody with just a type rating and 5 or 6 hours.

Good topic, will be interested to see the response, would also be interested as to why this practice is not more widespread.:ouch:

[Heliport]

" .....would also be interested as to why this practice is not more widespread."

The two places I know where you can do it (both in LA) are always heavily booked. You either have to book a few months in advance or take a chance on a short notice cancellation.

[Helinut]

Quindici,

The fact that there is a CFI in one of the driving seats does not end the "legal" issues. This has been discussed at length in previous threads, but as far as some regulators are concerned, it is possible/probable that they would not consider such flying to represent loggable P1 time for the person buying flight time - I am talking mainly here about the good old UK CAA and (these days) their interpretation of JAR-FCL and the ANO. Perhaps you are not particularly keen to acquire the experience as P1 time, in which case there may be no problem?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it has no value - it could be useful experience - but you need to be quite clear what you are hoping to achieve from it.

Lots have done it, and used it as a useful way of leaping one of the (many) hurdles to progress in this crazy game.

Probably the best thing to do is talk to the people who you are thinking fo getting work from when you have acquired those precious hours.

[deadstick ldg]

:cool:
The real point of this thread is "Where can you get a co-pilot job with 500 hs!?!":ok: No, seriously, where?

Time is time. You don't have to be flying NOE for it to be "real" time. I think the only legal issue is whether the person flying is a licensed commercial pilot. If so the occupant of the other seat can be the owner's Jack Russel because then it's just an insurance issue. Besides the dog probably has the TT and time in type to meet the insur. requirements.:D

[deadstick ldg]

quindici,

Are the companies you have seen in the UK? The only one I have seen in the US is Air Methods, but I haven't seen an SIC position posted in awhile.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

I'm always amused at low-timers who ask silly question like, "Are my 376 hours of flight instructing better than 244.3 hours of flying left-seat in a traffic-watch 206?"

Look people, flight time is flight time. When I hire a pilot, the FIRST thing I look for is: Is this person comfortable and "at home" at the controls? Even if he's never been in a 206 before, a helicopter is a helicopter so he/she shouldn't look too lost. Will he be able to adapt without constantly whining, "That's not how we do it in the R-22." If he claims to have 206 time, does he even know where the Battery switch is? Can he explain how the various systems work? Can he explain how a turbine is different from a piston?

Nobody expects low-timers to fly like Yeager or even like me (although the difference is so slight as to be unnoticeable). But I do expect that a pilot applying for a commercial position should be able to find his way around a traffic pattern without too much drama or angst no matter what ship he's in. You just fly as if you're totally in command - like you know what you're doing (fake it if you have to), and I'll teach you the intricacies of the particular aircraft.

[Barannfin]

Has anybody here actually flown with either of these guys to get the turbine time? I am just wondering how it works, does he just explain everything to you and you go fly? Or, is it more like, he takes care of everything and all you need to do is fly while he is taking pictures, or giving the radio report? Im just looking to get a better idea of what kind of flying is done here.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

I wrote: I'm always amused at low-timers who ask silly question like, "Are my 376 hours of flight instructing better than 244.3 hours of flying left-seat in a traffic-watch 206?"

Quindici shot back:I'm sorry, did I ask that? How many times have you been asked that, incidentally?Jeez, don't be so testy, Robbieboi. I was merely pointing out that the question has been asked, and for the most part it is moot. It matters not...to me, anyway. If you're not flying right-seat in a 206...if you're not starting it up and shutting it down, then you're *not* getting 206/turbine time.

[Flying Lawyer]

Whenever hours building with one of the LA traffic watch operators comes up, someone always says the CAA won't allow you to count those hours for the purpose of satisfying minimum hours requirements - obtaining a professional licence etc.

Both places have been offering hours-building for years, both are well-known and both often have UK pilots. The CAA must know about them, must know the regs of the Jetrangers and/or if they see a block of LA flying from Van Nuys or Fullerton, 3 hours every morning and 2 hours every evening at almost exactly the same times every day, they must realise it's traffic watch time. So, if the CAA takes this approach, there should be quite a few people around who can confirm it.
Where are they? I've never met anyone who's had this happen to them. The CAA is criticised for many things, often with justification, but I wonder if this one's true or just an urban myth.

Does anyone know a pilot who's had his/her traffic watch hours rejected by the CAA?
NB: I mean know.
Not 'I heard from someone who heard from someone else who had a cousin whose friend I didn't actually talk to myself, said .........'
Not 'One of the instructors at my school told me the CAA won't count the hours.'


BTW, I wouldn't recommend asking the CAA, or drawing their attention to traffic watch hours if you have them. It may be a grey area to which they sensibly turn a blind eye - they can't do that if they're forced to give a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

[Whirlybird]

I did a week of Traffic Watch in Van Nuys, and the B206 conversion there. The CAA accepted the hours - only 25 hours anyway - and I got the impression there was only a problem with that if you had hundreds of hours of Traffic Watch, but I don't actually know. I did all the flying, but not the start-up and shutdown generally , though I was taught to do it. When there wasn't too much to do, we went off and did circuits and confined area approaches and other stuff like that. It was good, it was cheap, it was lots of fun, I learned a lot. But to some extent you get what you pay for, and I'm not convinced it was as good as a "traditional" turbine conversion. But I couldn't afford that, and never kept up my B206 flying anyway, for that reason. :ok:

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Quindici:As for flying from the left or the right seat, surely someone that takes as pragmatic-a-view as you claimed to in the earlier post would not see a difference between being sole manipulator of the controls from the left seat or from the right seat? Quality of the flying is equal.Quite right! My point was exactly that. Left seat/right seat...flight time is flight time. What I was pointing out was that if the traffic watch pilot does not let you sit in the right seat, do the start, shut it down, pull the rotor brake, flip the switches...all that stuff, then you might as well be flying anything else- it really has no significance that you're in a 206.

Furthermore, while the experience of driving around the L.A. basin is valuable in and of itself, you probably won't be doing high-GW/confined-area stuff, or pinnacle landings, or autos...so you better come to me SUPER-SHARP on Class B ops, radio procedures (monitoring more than one at a time), knowing how/where to look for traffic (the airborne kind), etc. I've flown with helicopter pilots who seemed to have very little awareness of fixed-wing patterns and habits.

Let me also point out that flying straight and level in a JR will tell you absolutely zilch about how it hovers (unless the pilot lets you do some hover work before and after each flight - which I doubt if the ship is stored on a dolly or platform). And believe me, there are those of us who can tell in an instant whether the applicant (supplicant?) next to us has ever picked up and hovered a 206 before.

So how valuable is this flight time? As I said, it depends on the individual. It depends on what YOU make of it. If a pilot came to me with such experience I would not be prejudiced against him, but I would expect a lot...a LOT. In fact, at the end of the day that experience might work against him, because if someone claimed to have X-amount of 206 time, I would be disinclined to accept the excuse, "I wasn't allowed to do that."

See what I mean?

[HeloTeacher]

In this case, I agree with PF#1.

If the interviewee has the skills and confidence, the hours are a confirmation of where he obtained this ability. If the ability/skills are lacking despite the logbook entries, then warning flags fly.

I would also ask how the hours are being logged. If the 'CFI' is logging P1 and its a jetranger, are you trying to log P2 or dual?? Under Canadian rules it would be difficult to log other than dual.

[The Nr Fairy]

quindici:

I take a slightly different view, based on my own experience. I'd take the person I knew best and whose capabilities I knew and understood over a walk-in unless that person had substantialy more experience.

Why do I say that ? If you hour build at one place, and do the right things, and show willing, and show them you're the right stuff, they may let you fly ferry flights, and eventually offer pleasure flying work - "to start withand see how you go". If you do non-flying work for another company, and are in the right place at the right time, you may be offered work flying their new helicopter on pleasure flights.

My advice - get the 500 hours, with a mix of traffic flying, solo x-c, dual and solo high altitude at high AUW, and anything else a bit different. Putting one big tick in one box is good, putting lots of smaller ticks in lots of other boxes even better.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Quindici, I was thinking about this as I was driving home from work today. You did ask about pursuing a job as a co-jo, and we didn't really address it from that angle. I guess the "problem" with helicopter aviation is that there are so few copilot slots open that we really don't have any experience applying for them or hiring people to fill them.

But let me offer my best guess: It won't matter. In this business, too much depends on the individual. You could have 500 hours of mostly traffic watch and the other guy could have 500 hours in R-22's. You and your competitor are the same age and have exactly the same ratings and other quals (e.g. college or whatever). Who's going to get hired? It's likely a toss-up. It'll come down to who gives the best interview. Or who presents himself the best. Or how the Chief Pilot feels that day.

From the low-timer's POV, 500 hours is a lot. But from *our* POV, that amount of time is nothing. At that stage, you're all about equal in our eyes, no offense intended. Seriously, it would come down to personalities. Which one do I feel would stay with us longer? Which one is more trainable? Which one will get along with our PIC's the best?

(Here's a dirty little secret about our industry: When it comes right down to it, even PIC's are hired this way, sometimes despite the fact that there's someone more qualified for the job. If I don't think I'm going to get along with you, you could be Orville Wright and I'd send you back to repairing bicycles.)

For a job like this, it's *probably* not about the type of flight time you have. So I'll give you this free gem of interview advice: Whichever way you decide to go, be charming.

[HeloTeacher]

Again, PF#1 said it well.

[Rotorbike]

Only thing I can add is that if you have 500 hours it would be nice to see you have been employed before.

So in my opinion 500 hours total with 250 R22 instructing hours against 250 all paid for doing trafficwatch I'd employ the R22 guy as he shows an employment history.

[Whirlybird]

To stick in my twopennorth - and I'm not being humble, just realistic - I think I've learned more overall from the miniscule bit of instructing I've done than from the miniscule bit of Traffic Watch I did.

[Decks]

IMOH the flight instructing is by far the best. Can never figure out why its slagged off... if you read the article in the back page of R. and W. this month you will see Tim McAdams address this sort of stuff.
Yes, any time is better than no time but operating at the limit of the aircraft, making command decisions and building your instincts is of tremendous value. Your handling skills will improve ten fold even if youre not on the controls much. And dont forget that you will be doing those same moanouvers once every six months for the rest of your life so having a good grounding in autos etc is a big help... afterall a SE run on landing in a 412 is exactly the same as the running landings you used to do in the R22. Poleing a 206 in ENG... (which doesnt need to be hugely accurate flying), with someone else making the decisions is better than nothing but hardly of tremendous value.

[Heliport]

Are you sure you have to book Chuck Street through Group3?
Maybe things have changed, but I've seen posts by people who've booked direct.
Website: Commander Chuck (http://www.commanderchuck.com/chucksbio.htm)
E-mail: [email protected]

BTW, I don't think he's an instructor, although by all accounts he's a very experienced B206 pilot, a good teacher and will teach if the pilot wants that. I'm not sure it matters if he's an instructor for hours-building purposes. The FAA don't have type ratings and you'll be flying on an FAA ticket in American airspace.
If you need a JAA/CAA type rating at home, you'll need to do a conversion - but that should be a doddle after a week flying the B206.

You say the cost of self-fly is much the same. :confused:
Do you mean by cost sharing? Or have you found somewhere you can SFH a B206 for $135 per hour. If the latter, I think people needing turbine time would be very keen to know where it is! :D

[Heliport]

..... if you both plan to log the time one of you would have to be a CFI.
Both logging the time isn't the issue. If you do the flying, you're entitled to log the time. Insurance/contract with the radio station don't affect that.
Insurance and legality would depend on the insurance policy and the terms of the contract with the radio station.
Is it a commercial or private flight? eg Is the operator being paid to fly the helicopter or to provide traffic reports by whatever means he chooses?

[Rotorbike]

quindici

In my opinion any commercial experience, including flight instruction, would be more benefical than flying trafficwatch for more than 5-10% of your 500 hours total.

As a flight instructor you won't just do instruction as photo flights or tourist flights will form a part of your weekly work. As the NR Fairy said it is very important to show a broad spectrum of flight experience in your 'limited' flight time.

You say your intention is to gain 500 hours and gain work as a co-pilot. But if this hole disappears what is your intention then?? Have you a plan 'B'.

I don't believe that a previous life as an accountant or anything else shows that you would make an excellent co-pilot. CHC Scotia failures during training are testamount to the difficulties of finding the correct people.

So IF I was looking for a new hire with about 500 hours I would be looking for a little more than someone that had purchased their flight time doing trafficwatch.

Have you considered tuna spotting work??? Or is your goal to be a co-pilot in the North Sea??

With a civilian background myself, I do feel that flight instruction started me in the right direction so I maybe biased in my reply.

[Flying Lawyer]

By coincidence, this article is in today's New York Times.

Skybound Los Angeles Traffic Reporter Sees Job as a Dying Art

LOS ANGELES, March 12 - The first voice many Los Angeles commuters hear in the morning, when the clock radio bleats at 6, is that of Cmdr. Chuck Street, talking about traffic. He knows this, and so tries to put the good before the bad, to set a meditative mood with a poetic description of the rain, say, before launching into the annoyances or horrors of the day.

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/03/13/national/copt.large.jpg

How about this for ingenuity in getting a job? Chuck Street began his career in 1983. A helicopter pilot by hobby, he was down on his financial luck then. The rent was in arrears; the repossession man was nipping at his heels. Desperate, Mr. Street and a bare-chested woman hovered in a helicopter outside the 19th floor window of Rick Dees, the disc jockey. It paid off. Impressed with the derring-do of Chuck Street and the genetics of his female companion, Mr. Dees hired him a month later as a traffic pilot and reporter.

Link to full story in the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/13/national/13COPT.html?ex=1079758800&en=2b12608bc58df78d&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

I spent a week with Chuck in 1997. For a PPL, it was a fantastic experience and, although I'm not qualified to judge, for what it's worth, I suspect 20-25 hours might be useful for a new CPL or someone hours building for a CPL.
If the pilot's interested, it's not just straight and level. In our breaks, we practised pinnacle landings, confined areas and roof-top helipad ops.
Useful experience, extremely enjoyable and very cheap 206 flying. Recommended. :ok:

[Heliport]

Merged threads.

[ossie_lation]

Wondered if pilots and potential employers could give me their thoughts on constructive hour building with a view to a cpl.
Money is a consideration so a turbine rating is a no.
Do potential employers for a FI look at the quality of the hours or just the total.
Training in the schweizer( just coming to the end of ukPPL training), should I get a Robinson rating?
Thoughts from those with the experience would be much appreciated
Thanks
Ossie

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

not sure of the hourly cost of the shwietzer but i would think the R22 is cheaper for hour building but look at bulk buy of hours this may help but be carefull on doing this

my experience so far is they look at total hours but it helps if you have visited a lot of different airports more so for laterin your career. I know this is a contradiction slightly but mainly total hours then what you have done

for your CPL course you need a good long X Country anyway

Find the school that you wish to do you CPL with get them to assist you in your hour building take an instructor from the school with you to assist and guide you on certain trips, to the tips of the CPL course this will make it far easier when you get to the course
Get you accuracy up to speed get good at cockpit management maps pens ets i know it sounds daft but believe me its not.

If you want any further info PM me and I will give you my telephone number and we can chat more if it helps


And good luck.

Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

[apollon]

Hello friends,

I am a new helicopter pilot and wandering if anyone has any information on inexpensive ways to build up hours?

Thanx

[Ascend Charlie]

INEXPENSIVE?????:confused:

Did you say you are a HELICOPTER pilot?

No such animal as inexpensive helicopter time.:{

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Hi Apollon

There is no easy way to get low cost heli time unless you are very lucky a way i did was to get one or to friends to want site seeing trips or take friends for a present but the only legal way of doing this was for them to pay the cost of the heli and you log the time you cannot charge for it but you get the time.

i would however point out that as you are low time doing this you may be asked to do things that you dont have the experiace level required to do it. (please dont take offence i am still low time my self) also try to get in with your flying school and see if you can bum the odd ride otherwise the only way is like the rest of use have had to do is pay for it .

so mate but its not that easy i am affraid.

sincerely


Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Simon10]

Good thread!

What about the $120 USD per hour in a Bell 206 in the LA area? I remember that there was a thread about it, but in some way it ended up being about a Chuck guys FI qualification (or lack of it).

Anyone know if this is a approved way of building hours towards the 155 hour req.?

I also need a big chunk of hours. However I've been thinking of what to do during these hours, what should I practice? X-C? Just flying around the local area? Does anyone have an idea, or have any one of you seen plan/lessonplan for hour building? It would be neat to build the time in a structured manner.

Even though one may be financially able to buy the ca 100 hours to the CPL req, the major problem for me is the hours from 185 to 300. Doing the maths for these hours is really sobering. And on top of that - the FI-course. :ugh:

Any ideas?

[pilotwolf]

....only legal way of doing this was for them to pay the cost of the heli and you log the time you cannot charge for it but you get the time.

Might be wrong but I think that is illegal too - you MUST share the cost and they must pay no more than an equal share.

PW

[moosp]

Simon 10, you are dead right about what to do when hours building. Do we just stooge around straight and level and fly to the next airfield for the $100 sandwich?

That way you learn nothing, and you get no consolidation training. I asked the same question here about 150 hours ago and got some good replies, but not as many suggestions as you might think.

After I got my PPL I went to different schools and asked for further training. Some was excellent, most very good and some a bit iffey. Most started to teach the syllabus of the CPL or extensions to the CPL that exist in certain countries. (mountain, low level, heli lanes, low level nav etc.)

Left on my own, I try to keep to a discipline of exercises, such as in one hour of hours building I will do several circuits, aiming for perfection. (Never got there yet). Then a few slope landings, then a few turns around a point. A couple of pinnacles, a couple of auto's (if the owner/country authority allows this solo) then return to base on a fixed speed, heading and altitude, plus or minus nothing.

I remember a famous musician at the top of his profession being asked how he practiced. He said he did scales. Same with us, if we get the basics near perfect, the rest falls into place.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Pilot woolf

you may actualy be right i never got any further than they share the costs and i foot most of the bill it helped a littel but they always thought yes have some of that as you can fly but when you got down to cost they cringhed usually.

its worth a go but as we all know you end up paying most if not all of the cost in the end.

Sincerely

Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Heliport]

Threads merged.

[Whirlybird]

For those of you who weren't around at the time, I did most of my hourbuilding by flying in California - traffic watch, mountain flying, and seeing new places - then some flying in Russia, dual in MI-2s and MI-8s. There are threads about both of these trips, if you can still find them. I had a wonderful time, learned loads, and it cost me less than tootling off to the next airfield hundreds of times back home. I looked at other places - South Africa looked good, so did Australia, though I couldn't find out about mustering...really fancied trying that. I agree, go and do something different; you may never get the chance again. :ok:

[Simon10]

Well- I would love to receive info on prices for hour building. I need som 90 hours and would like to have it divided upon two periods.

Don't have any problems with sharing the time with an CFI or any other rated pilot - as long as the CAA would accept this towards the 155 hour req.

Would prefer Europe and the US.

So come on - if you are representing any school or FBO, start PM me you offers!

(Please Mr. Moderator, I hope you don't have any problems with me posting this)

[netjet]

If any pilots working on the 40 hour CC requirement for the instrument rating and/or 150 for commercial want some turbine time, there's a place in Michigan where you can fly a jet ranger at piston rates. Ferry flights, not traffic watch.

e-mail me [email protected] if you want more information.

[Benjonat]

I am wondering if anyone out there can provide me with advice in relation to hour building with Commander Chuck in LA. I have read through the threads from past years, and I am wondering if this operation is still up and running. I have sent some e-mails to Commander Chuck, but as yet no replies.

I am trying to find my way towards meeting the minimums to commence an Instructor Rating, and from what I have read so far, the idea of flying in LA may be a worthwhile path to follow.

Thanks

Benjonat

[Heliport]

Useful links:



Hours building: Questions, ideas and advice (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116630)

[RDRickster]

Their website hasn't been up for a long while, so I'm not sure of their status. However, "Commander Chuck" is NOT a CFI and you are flying a commercial operation. There have been some debate as to how to interpret some aspects of the regulation, but there is no doubt in my mind that this is NOT kosher.

Also, here is some information as to why it is ILLEGAL to "fly for free" concerning ferry trips and other items. If you do something like that (i.e. BoatPix), you better pay and you better do it with a CFI who is providing flight instruction. Thanks to CJ for providing the following example:

Chief Cousnel Opinion

A private pilot, who flew skydivers for free, received a 45 day suspension. The skydivers paid the skydiving club for instruction, and therefore, the FAA and the NTSB found that the flights were for compensation or hire, and that the pilot's ability to log the time can be viewed as compensation. The NTSB specifically rejected the pilot's argument that his free flight time could be excused as "sharing expenses." Administrator v. Rawlins, EA-4583 (1997)

If a pilot gains any economic advantage, not just the receipt of money, from the operation of an aircraft, the FAA may take the position that he is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire. An example would be the ferrying of aircraft for no charge to build up flight hours.

[Heliport]

RDR

You may be right.

However, people have been hours/turbine-time building in LA with both Commander Chuck (Fullerton) and the other traffic watch operation (Van Nuys) for many years and I've never known anyone to be prosecuted for doing it.

Many UK pilots have flown with both operators over the years. As far as I know, the UK CAA has always taken a sensible line and has never rejected the hours for the purpose of 'qualify hours' - perhaps because the pilots have done just a few hours rather than as an ongoing unpaid 'job'.

[helipat]

You can fly with a CFII (then no problem for logging hours) in Van Nuys in a Bell 206 or an AS350. You can even fly some simulated instrument time during the traffic watch if you need some more IFR time.

Have a look at: http://www.heliclass.com/



regards

Patrick

[RDRickster]

When you fly with Commander Chuck and you have your CPL, it isn't an issue. If you only have your PPL and are time-building or transition training, then it probably isn't a good idea because he isn't a CFI. I considered doing it last year, but decided against it for that reason (talked with him on the phone).

[BlenderPilot]

If you pay fly on a Bell 206 which requires no Copilot, with another pilot and just fly around reporting traffic, straight and level, very occasionally land here and there at sea level, not too heavy, well . . . . . . . . . .

There is a chance that SOME people will not even consider those hours as PIC time, I don't want to be pesimistic but its just another point of view.

[Heliport]

Threads merged.

[Flingwing207]

Bell 206 time in Michigan, USA

You might have seen a post in the last month about affordable B206 time in Michigan. I got to be the first one to take advantage of the offer - I'm posting a brief synopsis because it is indeed worthwhile!

I just finished a day of flying in a nicely turned-out Bell 206 (and my first turbine time). Definitely worth the price for anyone wanting to build time and get flight training in a Jet Ranger. You’ll be flying ferry/corporate transport type missions.

We started in Grand Rapids, but I rode back seat to Cadillac (the aircraft’s owner wanted to fly the first leg. I took the right seat in Cadillac for the next 4.2 hours while we flew to a tight parking lot in Saginaw, then to the local airport where we shut down, fueled (waited), started up (yes I did just fine, thanks to Raleigh’s multiple dry runs), back to the parking lot (this time Raleigh did the MP takeoff, as I had no desire to overtorque or overpitch with all the seats filled).

From there, back to Grand Rapids, this time to a slightly larger parking lot, then to the airport, shutting down for lunch and more fuel. After lunch another smooth startup, then back up to Cadillac and finally back to Grand Rapids. Total count, three confined off-airport landings, five normal app/takeoffs, two startups & shutdowns, plenty of hovering, pick-ups & set-downs, and some fun flying over the Michigan countryside (lots of deer).

The helicopter is in great shape – especially so for an A-model. It has a fresh engine, new interior and paint, smooth controls, good avionics and most of the oil stays on the inside!

If you are looking for hours, turbine time, and good instruction from a CFI with plenty of experience in the 206, I recommend this place.
NOTE: you do need to hold at least a PPL(R-H) to partake, due to insurance requirements. And no, this 206 does NOT fly like a big R22!

If you want to find out more, email Raleigh at [email protected] or PM me here if you want more details.

John (back to the Schweizers in MN)

[rotornut]

Does anyone know about this ad in Rotor & Wing? It says you fly the "Traffic Watch" in "sunny southern California", log PIC time "and get acquainted with the Jet Ranger". Sounds too good to be true.

[Rotorbike]

Check out Hour building in LA (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140566) thread below

[Flingwing207]

Or this thread click here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140747)

[rotornut]

Many thanks, guys.

[Heliport]

See also this thread:

Hours building: Questions, ideas and advice (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116630)



Heliport

[Whirlybird]

I flew with Phillippe of Heliclass at Van Nuys in 2002. H is also a CFI, so I did the conversion with him, and a week of Traffic Watch, mornings and evenings; I think he usually books whole weeks. I did 25 hours plus the conversion, and had no problem with the CAA with the hours...though I suspect you might if you had hundreds of hours! I learned a lot, and it was good fun, but to a certain extent you get what you pay for - no start-ups and shut downs, not that much apart from straight and level flying (though you do other stuff when time), and I think I'd have needed a bit more more training just in start-ups and so on to do the UK B206 conversion - I couldn't afford it so it never came up.

[Heliport]

Note:

'Commander Chuck', the other LA traffic watch operator, allows hours builders to do PFLs, pinnacle landings, confined areas etc if they wish.
Although he's not an Instructor, he's a CPL with thousands of Jetranger hours and has access to landing sites for those exercises.

Heliport

[4ero]

Against it is that you won't start it and will fly from the left seat. But he that fly's gets PIC


:confused:

So in a two pilot operation you decide who is PIC after you get back?
If an instructor doesn't touch anything does that count as solo?

Now call me old fashioned, but I would have thought that you decide who is PIC before you get in the bloody thing and the PIC sits in the pilots seat. On the right in this instance.

I would go as far to say that to log time in the described manner could be construed as falsifying documents.

In CRM the R does not stand for random. :eek:

[chopperpilot47]

I am a CFI in Pennsylvania and run a school there. This is information only, not an advert. It really does not matter which seat you occupy to log P1 hours. Our students sit in the left seat when training and when they gain their licence in the Bell 47. When they are training for their instructor rating they sit in the right seat. It is P1 whichever seat they sit in as long as they have a licence.

I'm not sure about the traffic watch operation. I can see an argument either way that it is a commercial operation. It would probably be better if Chuck took his instructor rating.

A lot of nonsence is talked about the pilot's seat in the Jetranger. According to the FAA examiner we use the only reason the PIC sits on the right is that the collective on that side has the switches and buttons, the left side does not.

I don't see the CAA having a problem with logging the flight hours on the traffic watch operation as long as the pilot has a licence and actually flies the helicopter. I don't see what difference actually starting the helicopter makes.

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[Heliport]

4ero

Are you saying that if two qualified pilots do a two hour flight together and fly an hour each they aren't each legally entitled to log the hour they flew? :confused:

[Whirlybird]

I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the UK you can legally be P1 from either seat.

[4ero]

shouldn't one of them be logging ICUS?

If the wheels come off who makes the descisions?

I imagine in Chuck's helicopter Chuck makes the descisions so Chuck is PIC

[Billywizz]

Haven't you paid out enough of your hard earned cash already getting licence / ratings ?
Just remember that when you have your turbine hours there is at least one less job around you should be paid to do because captain traffic watch is getting some other sucker to pay to fly!!!
This guy is doing you no favours, he's probably laughing all the way to the bank.

[MK10]

has anyone been to the states{i am in uk} to build R22 hours
prior to cpl. am having trouble finding anyone who will just let me
build hours ie 40 hrs solo in 3 wks vacation.

[pilotwolf]

Well its a lot of hours in a short time... equates to flying minimum of 2 a day - doesn't sound much but as someone who did ppl from 0 to around 50 in 4 weeks and flew home same day as checkride I can assure you it is!

Allowing for tech problems, weather, some relaxation, checkout, etc you re more likely to be flying 4 hrs a day - thats a lot in R22!

But I d still say go for it, you're in a good position for negociating a favourable rate... I can give you name of some one who maybe be able to help if you PM me and don't mind going to California.

I m biased but would put money on it that you ll enjoy the favourable flying atmosphere. But check other threads on the requirements for getting FAA licence based on UK one before commiting to anything.

PW

[choppersafari]

MK 10

Have you thought of building those hours in South Africa, combining it with a great vacation ....

I could point you in the right direction to get those 40 hours in three weeks or even less (I did 50hrs in less time ... not too much of a stretch if you do it properly and combine it with some touring across country) ...

Exchange rate would be to your favour as well ... essentially get more hours for same spending ... and see some magnificent country to boot ... good accomdation easy to find ...

As far as I know the admin in terms of converting UK ppl to RSA ppl not a big deal ... I have instructed a couple of European students who have had a great time out here, but wasn't involved in the admin side ... don't know much about that but seems straight forward though ...

Also have a Amercian mate who comes over here almost every year to fly helis on holiday ...

Worth considering ... feel free to contact me if you would like to know more ...

:ok:

[helio eng]

Im currently working towards a CPL H, I'm at the PPL phase at the moment training in the UK.
I plan to go the USA to do my hour building on gas turbine types. This is mainly due to the type of work i do as an aircraft engineer so it more relevant than building on piston types.

Can anyone recommend a good place to do gas turbine types over the pond?

[Heliport]

Merged thread.

H

[chester2005]

hi there
i am new to this site and would like to know if anyone could recommend anywhere in the USA for me to do some (about 40) hours building in a R22.
I know there are loads of places but i have an inherent distrust of all companies aviation ( i doubt you would find a bigger cynic and sceptic)
I strongly believe in going on recommendation
This is where you come in!!!!!:D :O
any help would be gratefully appreciated
many thanks Dave

[helicopter-redeye]

I did some flying at Helicopter High at Martin State/ Maryland a few years ago.

Stacked up a few hours on some good long XC. But the guy I flew with has moved on since although still under same ownership.

h-r

(NB go to Oz, much nicer)

[pilotwolf]

Try doing a search - The Flying Squirell started a similar thread a week or so back..

Rotoraviation came up several times as being recommended - Long Beach, Cali.

PW

[pseudonymf]

I flew with Rotor Aviation two years ago. They were very helpful and have lots of contacts.
Boatpix in Florida (Tom I think) also do a very cheap deal. On the web somewhere!

:ok:

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Sorry - trashed the post. Rotorvation helicopters in CA came highly recommended and Ocean helis of Palm Beach, FL, are far more helpful than most outfits. Anyone who has been here, can they PM me please. Anyone thinking of going to the US to train now, should read the Post on Visas.

VISA THREAD (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153252)

[pilotwolf]

Sorry TFS hadn't realised!

Anyone who wants to ask any details fell free to PM about Rotoraviation - I m simply a satisfied (repeat) customer.

PW

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I am actually stunned as I have just found out what I need to do to fly in the States now at PPL level. $68 to the FAA at Oklahoma and a two month wait to get checked out for security with them and with the CAA here - Then I walk into my nominated FAA office in the US to collect my license on receipt of their acceptance letter. ( Which you could do on the spot prior to 9.11 ) Then I have to nominate a flying training organisation in the States at $130 per organisation requested. You pay on acceptance by the school ! If you change your mind and go elsewhere, yep, another $130 please !! ( This does not apply if you already have a type rating on an aircraft and just want to do some solo flying. ) Also £16 to the CAA to support their 'mutual' agreement with the FAA. ( I have been told by some FBO's that the TSA is still letting alien students train on a visa waiver due to the current regulation uncertainties - at the discression of individual schools !! ) If you have a CPL, you will be issued with a PPL until you pass the FAA examinations and have undertaken the required training and examiner checkride.

Click here to sign up with the TSA ( $130 per selected FTO - not all schools have authority to issue Visas if required. )

Transport Safety Authority Sign Up (https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov)

and here with the FAA at Oklahoma ( this requires a $68 AMEX cheque as a processing fee. )

FAA Oklahoma Sign Up (http://registry.faa.gov/docs/verify61-75.pdf)

and here to locate the CAA SRG/1160 form ( the CAA require £16 with the form to process the FAA's request for info about you ! )

CAA 1160 form download (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=175&pagetype=87&groupid=612)

and here to learn about converting JAA to FAA....

Alien Pilots instructions (http://faa.gov/avr/afs/flightinstruction/index.cfm)

You now have to be WELL prepared....Good Luck !:ok:

[chester2005]

thanks all for your recommendations and comments i am waiting to hear back from a few of the places to see if they can accomodate me in April

i will post on here how i get on and who i recommend after being out there

chester

TFS
by the way i have just had my fixed wing licence verifiied by the FAA and they have not charged me $68????????????

[alouette]

Try Tom McDermott at Boatpix. Very reasonable prices for hour building on R22's. Can't go wrong with that. :ok:

Cheers, Alouette

[Heliport]

You'll find information about American flight schools in this thread: America (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116310)

and about hours building in America in this thread: Hours Building (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116630)

Please report back when you've been - recommend or avoid etc.

Heliport

[chester2005]

I am fairly new to PPRune and would be grateful for any feedback on LA Helicopters.
Has anyone had any dealings,trained with or hour built with them?
I am planning to go there for Hour Building so all information is gratefully appreciated.
Thanks Chester.:ok:

[JohnJ]

I've flown several times with LA Helicopters over the past 5 years, and with Rotoraviation . Check your pm for my email.

[chester2005]

Only another 7 days before I am of to the USA for hour building but I have come across what might be a little problem!
I hold a JAR PPLH with no night rating.
I might be expected to fly in the USA at night to build my hours because the schedules for the helicopters is quite busy (hopefully not but I want to be prepared).
The problem I see is that because you have to have LOTS of hours before you can get a JAR night rating (H) (100 PIC),
IF I do any flying at night over there , will I be able to log it , and will the CAA count it towards the hours I need for the CPL? as I have not got a night rating will they say the hours were illegal?

Also will the FAA give me a licence that lets me fly at night without any night training?

Comments and advice most welcome still quite new at this
Thanks in advance Chester2005 :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Lightning_Boy]

I did a 44 type rating at LA Helicopters, there a good bunch of guys and will look after you.
Long beach is also a good airport to fly from.


JohnJ, your still alive, aint heared from you in a while!!!!


LB :ok:

Your FAA licence you apply for will be based on the back of your JAA licence including any restrictions you have (which also means no night flying)

You could fly with an instructor and carryout night training, (I cant remember the requirements but its som many hours with x amount of T/O and landings). When they are happy, they can then apply an endorsement in your logbook stating you have received night training and this will allow you to fly at night.
The down side is, any dual flight you do with an instructor cannot be logged under the JAA as P1, however an FAA licence can.

Weigh it up and see if its worth it.

[chester2005]

:D :D :D :D :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: LA HELICOPTERS
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!! What can i say?
I have never in my life been made to feel so welcome and looked after so much by complete strangers.
I have just spent the last 10 days flying in and around Long Beach and had a great time!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone at LA helicopters was great.
I had a little problem with verification of my JAR licence ( FAA lost my application) so I flew less hours than anticipated but they were all cool about it.
The R22s are very well maintained and the R44 (dual only ) is a clipper 2 and flys like a dream.
The standard of the instructors is even higher! with the chief pilot being a whiz in an an R22.
I would heartily recommend anyone to fly with LA Helicopters for whatever purpose and I will be returning later this year to do an instrument rating with them.
If anyone would like any more information please feel free to PM me and i will oblige.
Chester

[pilotwolf]

chester2005... not been out there this year (yet!). Is Lars the mechanic still there? If so did he take you to any of his haunts?! :}

PW

[chester2005]

PW
i never spoke to him but yes Lars is still there keeping all the machines flyable.
When i go back in october i might see what these haunts are that you refer to :o):D

[145kts]

Pilotwolf,
Carls Jr, Outback steakhouse for a "Special". The thristy isle, Fritz.
Oh yea, that club on PCH and Redondo !!!!!

good old Lars.

[pilotwolf]

145kts :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

Good to know somethings don't change! I m amazed we were ever allowed back in some of the establishments!

Certain people never seemed to understand the principle of 'look but don't touch' :)

PW

[Kopterman]

After doing my ATPL(H), I'm looking to build about 50 hrs on Schweizer 300 to qualify me for my CPL course. Have flown UK, USA & NZ and am thinking of going to South Africa or Canada.
Any recommendations or advice on flt schools or methods for obtaining hrs would be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks in advance....KD

[Heliport]

Click here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944)

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

The FAQ page is great now Heliport - good effort !

[Whirlygig]

I recently went to South Africa (Durban) to get some Jet Ranger time. I investigated a number of schools there so if you want any further info, please feel free to PM me.

I was very happy with my choice of school but I don't believe they have a Schweizer.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Hey Whirls - how much did it end up for the 206 time, if you don't mind me asking ?

[Whirlygig]

I don't want people to think I'm the sort who won't reply to questions asked of me so, TFS, please read your PMs.

Cheers

Whirls

[Heliport]

There's lots of information about training and hours building in South Africa on this thread.

Link here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1909883#post1909883)

It's fixed-wing info, but may be of some general use re obtaining a SA licence etc.


Heliport

[chester2005]

Hello everyone.
As there has been lots of help in the past towards me whenever I have asked a question on here I thought I would ask another one .

I have an idea of hour building by cost sharing with people.
I am under the impression that as a PPL holder the only time I can take money of people towards the cost of the flight is "an equal share of the cost with the pilot paying a proportionally equal share"

What I would like to do is ;
Advertise cheap helicopter flights , using this cost sharing option.

Will I be breaking any laws if I take up complete strangers and charge them a proportion of the cost of the helicopter hire?

If not, why aren't all low hours pilots (PPLs) doing this because it seems that you could halve the cost of hour building ( in a R22) or even in a R44 you could in theory end up only paying for 1/4 of your hours.

If this is Legal, is there anything I am missing?

Comments welcome.
Thanks Chester

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[hemac]

I would think the only problem with your idea could be that your 'clients' may think they are paying for a full professional helicopter sightseeing tour, whereas you will probably not have the backing of the aircraft operator and insurance may be a problem.
This is only my opinion and I am inexperienced in these matters.

H.

[Whirlygig]

I'm sure somebody will provide the link to the appropriate paragraph in LASORS but, to be perfectly frank, you should have covered it in your PPL ground exams (I know I did) but, YES, it is illegal.

Cheers

Whirls

[hemac]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Costs. Is the seat free, or do you expect the passenger to pay the landing fee, buy lunch, or share all costs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Would exercise caution when advertising spare seats like this, see Art 130 of ANO, esp : no information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club.

I just found this on another forum, I'm not sure if it is applicable.

H.

[madman1145]

Hi, making non-known persons pay for travelling in an aircraft where the pilot only holds a PPL is illegal. Pure and simple ..

This is taken from the Danish CAA brochure concerning this issue - translated freely into English:
".. Private pilots are not allowed to fly with paying passangers.
If the passengers are close friends or close familymembers to the pilot, it is allowed to share the expenses that is directly connected to the actual flight, like expenses for fuel, rent of aircraft .."

Now, you have to define "close friends" and "close familymembers", but I'm sure that a person who wants to fly with you, that you just met 5 minutes ago is no "close friend" ..

I'm sure other CAA's have similary policies ..

[Flying Lawyer]

Ouch Whirlygig. That's a bit harsh. ;)

Chester
There's nothing to stop PPLs hours building by cost-sharing, provided they comply with the law. The cost sharing provisions are in Article 130 (8) of the ANO.
Cost sharing is permitted as an exception to the normal rules about "valuable consideration" but there are conditions which apply if you are going to avail yourself of the exception.
Advertising in the manner you appear to have in mind is not permitted. However, restricted advertising is.

Hemac has already posted the provision relating to advertising.
It comes from Article 130 (8 ) (a) (ii) (cc):
"No information concerning the flight shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club."

People commonly believe that all occupants of the aircraft must pay their proportion of the cost. That isn't so. The pilot must pay at least his/her proportion. The balance can be divided between the passengers in any proportion they wish.

There is no requirement in the UK that passengers must be "close friends" or "close family members".
madman1145
Do those words appear in the Danish law?

Privately owned aircraft:
The provision about the contribution to cost which may be accepted by owner-pilots is far more restrictive than that which applies to rented aircraft. There doesn't seem to be any logic in the distinction. I've always assumed it's because it would be too difficult to determine the actual cost per hour of flying the aircraft.

[chester2005]

Flying Lawyer

Thank you I was starting to get a little worried after Whirlys comments!!!!.
I have scoured Lasors and could not find any restriction about cost sharing with a PPL.
I certainly did not cover it in PPL exams and have not encountered it yet in my ATPL ground school ( but I might do by the time I have finished)

So in a nutshell I can't advertise but can I offer cost shared flights to people?

Thanks again
Chester

[Heliport]

Chester

Your nutshell isn't quite right. You can advertise, but only within a flying club and on the other conditions mentioned.

Whirlygig is a charming lady. We all have grumpy moods now and again. :)

[Gerhardt]

I've always found Whirls to be charming on here. I've re-read her post here and I thought she was rather informative and cheerful.

Or maybe it's that she just makes me gush.

[Whirlygig]

Sorry if I came across grumpy but I still can't believe you didn't cover this at PPL. Perhaps you didn't use the Trevor Thom books because, having just referred to my mate Trev chapter 10, he also tells me that no more than four persons must be carried and that the pilot must not be employed by the operator in addition to the advertising rule.

If you go round all your friends and family and put it to them as a proposition, then it does help to defray the cost of hour building.

The only problem with the "flying club thing", is that, because there are so fewer helicopter pilots, there is less chance that people will take you up on your offer since all the members of any heli-school's club, can already fly themselves and, no doubt would also want to log PiC time!

Cheers

Whirls

[PENNINE BOY]

Chester

Send me a PM. Good bit of news in your area :ok:

[goose boy]

Has anybody got any tips how you can build hours after the PPL license for low cost's or even free..

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

How dare you use the 'F' word on here !! Go and Boatpix yourself at $100 an hour. Was supposed to do in Rhode Island weekend just gone but am too fat to get in the Robbo !


TFS

The FAT Squirrel

http://www.gifs.net/animate/105-02_ani.gif

[Whirlybird]

1) Cost share with other PPLs or passengers
2) Ask schools if you can do positioning flights - for maintenance or whatever.
3) Boatpix - as mentioned by Squirrel
4) Fly B206 in LA doing Traffic Watch - around $130/hour, though that may be out of date by now.
5) Go to South Africa, New Zealand, or anywhere else with cheaper flying and a good exchange rate for the £.

That's all I can think of for now.

[rotornut]

Buy your own chopper and go broke like I did:ugh:

[hemac]

Boatpix - as mentioned by Squirrel

A crumb for the uninitiated please. What exactly is/are Boatpix?

H.

[highfinal]

Hi Hemac,

No personal experience of them myself, but I do know several people who have hour built R-22 time with them. They are based out of Ft Lauderdale in south central Florida, and they have marketed themselves as the people to go to if you need pictures taken of any kind of boating activity (races, regattas, for sale, etc). The clever bit is getting low time pilots to pay them to do this commercial work for them, in the region of $100 ph.

However, as a caveat, note that these ops include flying up to 10-12 nm offshore in a robbie, your safety gear is just a lifejacket, and lots of the photo angles will place you only a few feet above the water - go look at the front of a yachting mag to get the idea. Have also heard rumours that their maintenance is not quite what it should be, and know for certain that they have used student pilots, under the aegis of instruction, to fly these ops while their instructor takes the photos.

One the positive side, it's supposed to be a lot of fun, and I've heard they often need more hours to be flown than paid for.

Back to the old adage - you pays your money, you takes your choice!

www.boatpix.com

[Cron]

.. I was wondering that boatpix thing as as well...I reckon derivation of boathook maybe but much more painful ..

What quantity of hours would put one in the frame for positioning flights .. or is it more a case of the quality of one's flying and being known to the operator as safe and steady etc?

Hope I have not hijacked thread. Apologies if so.

[highfinal]

Hi Cron,

From what I know - it's all about hour building, ie. trying to get the 50 hrs in a R-22 to be able to teach under the SFAR. Therefore - this is something for CFI's/Commercial pilots straight out of flight school with no experience. Remember - you're paying them to fly!

One person i knew just called them up, paid over the phone with his credit card for 20 hours, and three days later was flying off the coast of southern florida, and followed a series of races to Rhode Island over the next fortnight. Said it was fun but he wouldn't do it again.

[Cron]

Thanks HF but I guess I should have been clearer in my post which was a question leading on from WB's comment:

'Ask schools if you can do positioning flights - for maintenance or whatever.'

Could/has/would a PPL on low hours be/has been/could be considered for pos flights?

Right up my street if I could be so lucky (low hours PPL).

[rugmuncher]

I''l sign your flying log for you !!

£25 for every hour you want/need !

:ok:

[Minty Fresh]

Cron/goose boy

Did my PPL with a school, got to know them, volunteered to help at pleasure flying events, weekends etc and they have let me take the machine for maintenance during my PPL, with an instructor, and after completing my PPL - both for no charge. The machine has to go there anyway so they didn't charge me.

Not suggesting its ideal but in my situation as a low timer every free hour I can get I will - plus it keeps me out of the pub on a Saturday afternoon!!!

[Simon853]

If two PPLs share a flight, and are nominated P1 and P2, how do the P2 hours look on a logbook later down the line when they have a CPL qualification? Do employers simply discount P2 time in a single-pilot helicopter, or is it just the total numbers they're interested in?

Si

[Gordy]

In the US, you cannot log second in command time unless the aircraft certification requires two pilots. So the P1, P2 thing does not work.