LOW COST CARRIER B737 FOUND WITH STANDBY HYDRAULIC SYSTEM DISCONNECTED in BNE?

[Beer Can Dreaming]

Heard a nasty rumour from a few engineers about a certain B737 found by engineers with its Standby (emergency) hydraulic lines disconnected!

Apparently the jet was flying around for some time with this critical system disconnected but it had gone unnoticed.
If I heard it from one guy I wouldnt have believed it but from a group of engineers!!!!!!

If this is true I think the regulatory authorities should take a thorough audit of this organisation as this is a blatant case of the travelling public being exposed to potential disaster.

[Whiskery]

How do you "disconnect" the Standby hydraulic system "lines" in a B737 ?

[SeldomFixit]

Possibly in a manner akin to flying a -400 to the US without a static inverter...............:ok:

[Z Force]

Or flying a 737 out of Sydney with a pitot tube cover on. CASA have gone weak on this mob.

[AlbertRoss]

Any idea of the date of the incident Beer Can ? I know of one from two years ago (July 2001) - possibly that is the one this rumour is about. And the engineer - would it have been JV who confirmed it for you ? If it is the same incident we are talking about then it was the A system supply line being found disconnected during the walk around by the pilot. The aircraft had just been towed from the hangar, all signed out and ready to go. At the time the boffins in Spring Hill explained it away as sabotage !......
If it has happened again, the regulator should be asking some very serious questions.

[TIMMEEEE]

QFandlovinIT I hear what you're saying but having flown with alot of guys that are now VB drivers I have to say I would risk my family with 90% of them.
Those I know are outstanding pilots and people to boot.
Shame I can't say that about the other 10% but then again that seems to be a pretty standard number - 90/10 good guys to d!ckheads.

Incompetency is a whole new matter however.

As for maintenance if I were this airline I would be wondering why such a small incident could risk its AOC and if I were CASA I would be seriously investigating it before the media/politicians start asking questions.

[Z Force]

I don't think you'll find that it is not one small incident, I think you'll find their are numerous systematic ones. Why then would they have cancelled their ETOPS approval (other than letting CASA do it for them)?

[Kaptin M]

Good point, QFandlovinIT, Australian examples of "garbage in = garbage out (ie. people who had previously been rejects, but were taken on in desperation) causing failure of the airlines that employed them, are Ansett, East-West, Australian aka TAA, and IPEC...... RIP the lot of them. :p

So was the alleged defect entered in the Aircraft Log Book?
If so, it would be easily traceable....it was the A system supply line being found disconnected during the walk around by the pilot. Hardly "sabotage" - even if the pilot had missed seeing it "disconnected", as soon as the system was pressurised during initial pre-flight preparation, it would have shown up then ie. "Hyd Sys A Low Press"

This sounds more like an accidental oversight eg. the aircraft hydraulic system being disconnected to allow work to be done on it, or one of the systems to which it supplies pressure, and forgetting to re-connect it. Poor workmanship.
However the "Drama Queens" have now added "sabotage" to spice it up.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Kaptin M. I generally enjoy your posts, but I cannot further contain myself.

Your continued assertion that the reason that pre-dispute airlines such as Australian, AN, EW and IPEC no longer exist because of the pilots these airlines employed post-dispute, is a flawed and ideologically based premise.

Get a grip...

[AlbertRoss]

Kap M, the cry of 'sabotage' came from head office, in my mind to head off flak regarding, as you correctly summised, an oversight. The big problem is that the aircraft was indeed cleared to line, and with engineering management crying, at least initially, sabotage just shows the level of systemic problems this organisation has. And that was two years ago, prior to even starting the whole ETOPS fiasco.
There are alot of acknowleded problems within engineering management, and for that reason the company brought in a great number of ex-Ansett boffins to try and resolve these problems, only to find it getting worse. HR (read BH) seems to think that throwing in more resources (ie new staff) is the big savior of all problems, when the real solotion would be to look at the problem from the top down - while the CEO can attack personnel for doing their legal job and then blatently attempt to cover it up, it will never change.
Perhaps now that it is a public company that serious questions may be asked by the shareholders, because CASA doesn't seem to want to ask them.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

QF and Lovin it. Im guessing with that sort of attitude you are a cadet or North shore silver spooner!

Show me where in the ops manual it states that to fly for QF you have to be a short sighted, arrogant a$$hole?

I think you have missed your calling. You should have been a solicitor.

[Kaptin M]

The use of a little bit of "poetic licence", TCoB :E .......no more, no less, than QFandlovinIT has used.
As a matter of fact, if we are to believe the rumour wrt this topic it was a Virgin Blue PILOT who discovered the problem, shooting down QFandlovinIT's anti-VB pilot post with one bullet...but I guess that's what years of sitting in the jumpseat does - numbs one brain!!

And so in today's "low cost" (read low salary) airline world, should companies expect to get what they pay for?
Should employees give back only as much as they are paid?

We have all grown up KNOWING that if one wants quality, then you must be prepared to pay a little more, and that paying less means getting less than if you had paid for a better quality item.
For example, a watch made in China is going to cost less than say a Rolex made in Switzerland, however you wouldn't expect the Chinese watch to run with the precision, nor to last as long, as the more expensive Swiss made watch.
Tools, also made cheaply in China, that retail at far less than their Australian, American, or German counterparts selling at 3 or 4 times more are not going to have the same tolerances or durability.
We EXPECT this.
You get what you pay for!

Somebody selling a service - whether he be a builder, bricklayer, bus driver, or professional - is not obliged to provide any service ADDITIONAL to that for which he is employed, unless he receives additional remuneration.
Isn't THAT the way we are all accustomed to paying?

You get what you pay for!

[HotDog]

I guess a lot of punters never got over the fact that VB lasted more than six months, against their original predictions but have been proven wrong. Grow up guys and learn to live with it.

[Rostov]

QF and loving it.
I guess you probably don't want to be reminded about the QF 737 that carried out a couple of trans-tasman flights with no-one noticing that the required life rafts for the flights were not on board. ( No it was not a jet connect crew) Miss that one? Maybe the right stuff swept that one under the rug......aswell!!!!
Pilots in glass houses........:yuk:

[loungelizard]

Oh ****su, what pure poetry my good man !!

[Eastwest Loco]

Small problem DirectAnywhere.

Main spleen vent is obstructed and the bile collection box is U/S as noted in engineering release.

As dumping bile over populated areas is not permitted, so looks like we are going the long way home.

Nice to be back after an extended prune free period, but sad to see the knives are still out.

Have either been flat out working or playing with my 1984 Z car.

Blood pressure is down though!!

Best to all of my mates.

Ron

Eastwest Loco

[Kaptin M]

Welcome back, EWL - where've ya been?

It's purely co-incidental that you should happen to walk into the first "dust up" in probably 6 months on your return.
Things have been quite tame, in fact (in spite of Buster's attempts :D ).

[Eastwest Loco]

Hiya Kap

Flat strap with my Travel Agency mate - bought out the partners so now it is all my fault!! Thankfully very very busy too.

Trust me to walk stright back into a bevvy of spinning propellors!!

Good to hear from you again - and STOP IT!!!!

See me after class!!!

Best regards

Ron

:p:p

[vortsa]

AlbertRoss,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Perhaps now that it is a public company that serious questions may be asked by the shareholders, because CASA doesn't seem to want to ask them."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does being a share holder in a public company mean?

If its a choice between profit loss or a reduction in Safety I truely think that share holders would risk the reduction in safety, because it is money we are talking about here, and when you can be a faceless player in the game, you would naturally choose to risk more for personal gain.

So we only have CASA to keep the Bast#*ds honest and God help us they do their job.

[criticalmass]

Hell's Teeth! There are more flames here than out of an Allison T250-B17B during a hot-start.

Facts, more facts and yet more facts are required before we start making judgements as to who is to blame etc.

At the moment we seem to be surrounded by rigidly-defined areas of doubt and confusion...and the flames aren't helping at all.

(Dons asbestos-free OH&S-approved jacket and heads for the fire-shelter.)

[I'm gone!]

Gday all,

I'm sorry folks but I have to buy into this one.

QFandWankingIt,

Thank christ you are at QF and I sincerely hope that you stay there. That way I will never have the great misfortune of ever having to be stuck in the confined space of an aeroplane cockpit with you!:yuk:

Tosser!!!!

I'm gone!(and not to QF mainline thank f#ck!)

[OpsNormal]

****su.... My mouth is open, and s#!t stuck in fur everywhere. :ouch:

Was, at the time, a tad well.... you know.... :suspect:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

No responce Qfand lovin? Too busy warming the backseat watching others fly? Its people like you that give us all a bad name. Try working in the real world before giving us all your wisdom.

You are a disgrace.

[Keg]

Shame QFandwhatever's post has been deleted because I wanted to see the profile. You guys bite far too easily at times (yes, I'm guilty of it too). I was astounded a while back to be talking to some blokes (who didn't know I was a QF driver) about PPRUNE and to hear them talk about 'faking' profiles from the various airlines and winding up opposition crews with all sorts of stupid things. It was sport and a game to them. I'm NOT qfandwhatever (not my style, if I wanted to say something I'd say it as 'Keg') so don't anyone try to label that one on me.

I've not come across the breath taking arrogance exhibited by QFandwhatever face to face in QF before. Had I done so I would have told the idiot to pull their head in. Please don't think that the 'average' QF crew are like that. Have a look around the crew room at your respective airline. By and large we are exactly the same. Mostly decent blokes and sheila's trying to make a living in aviation and every now and then we spot someone who we'd prefer not to have much to do with. Whether QFandwhatever is part of QF or not, he/she certainly doesn't speak for vast majority of those of us who are.

Now, back to the thread.

[Woomera]

Yes, Keg, how true. "As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent."

I deleted the posts which were inappropriate and unrealted to the thread topic.

Woomera

[DDG]

The B737NG standby Hydraulic Reservior supply line to the pump does have a quick-disconnect fitting beneath the resevior , accessable from the right hand wheel well.
Having said that it is possible to disconnect to Standby Hydraulics,don`t know if the incident is real or not but these disconnects are used during maintenance to isolate reservoirs to allow component & or filter replacement without the loss of the reservoir contents.

[HotDog]

What has happened to the old practice of raising a worksheet to re-connect a disconnected item during maintenance, especially with a shift change?

[bush mechanics]

Normally a duplicate inspection is caried out by another engineer or suitably indorsed pilot.Sometimes blame should be shared to operations as they normally give you 3 hours to do a 5 hour job.When people are rushed you have to expect some F%^&UPs
OPs please dont correct me on my spelling as i know its S$%^
Happy days

[Kaptin M]

Hey bush mechanics, is what you are saying, when you wrote, "they normally give you 3 hours to do a 5 hour job.",
You get what you pay for?!!
OR
"You want CHEAP - you'll get CHEAP". :O

[bush mechanics]

Kaptin m.
Where in the hell did you get that from.Why is this post tittled LOW COST CARRIER.There a/c didnt come from a diffrent low cost boeing did they.
Sorry mate Ive gone straight over your head.
What im saying is that to often the blame for stuff ups is layed on pilots or engineers.Sometimes its the people in ops who schedule the a/c in for maintanance that dont give you enough time to carrie out the work required.
Soo as I said before If you are given 3 hours to do a phase check which normally takes 5 hours you cant blame people for makeing mistakes.Rushing people along ups your chances of F@#$ing up
Hope this clears your head.

[DDG]

Remember that no one has yet confirmed that this said "disconnection" is or has happened!
You can`t apportion blame if nothing happened!

[Sooty]

Just out of curiosity, how obvious is it that the system was disconnected?

Maybe despite all this blame crap going on, someone might actually give the pilot a pat on the back for noticing the fault!!!

[yachtno1]

I'd just like to point out that if the feed from "A" sys reservoir was disconnected the electric pump would have overheated rather quickly.....;)

and ...... depending on the task involved there wouldn't necessarily be stage completion sheets or a shift hand over sheet. A simple CRS signature in the tech log might be all that is needed. As far as I'm aware Hyd reservoir disconects are not "vital points" therefore not requiring duplicate inspections. ;) ....err and who won the RWC ?:p

[Beer Can Dreaming]

From my original post the engineers (all 3 of them) confirmed this occurrence.
They also are pissed off that a certain person was recently elevated to a top position at CASA and was a former safety manager with this company.
As a safeguard they rang the CASA LAME safety hotline and gave details anonymously due to this organisation thinking CASA shouldnt be involved.
Reackon it actually happened people if engineers go to this trouble.

[yachtno1]

I hear what you are saying Beer Can .....thank god this time there wasn't an accident .. sounds like things need shaping up !:eek:

[AlbertRoss]

BeerCan, just to confirm, the incident you originally refered to (I think you originally said it was the Standby system) has now been cornfirmed that it was actually the incident I refered to (the A system - dated 11/07/01), so we are only talking about the one incident ?
And for YaghtNo1's info, you are absolutely correct - the A system pump did rapidly overheat and as a result the flight had to be cancelled - CASA can cross refer to that if they bothered - flight DJ752 11/07/01

[DDG]

ALBERT ROSS,
I beg to differ,
I read Beer Cans original and later posts that it was the Standby Hydraulic Reservior Quick Disconnect was found to be disconnected(ie undone).
Albert i think you may be referring to a seperate incident as you refer to the System A Hydraulic Reservior Quick disconnect which is located on the fwd wall of the wheel well above the keel beam.

[AlbertRoss]

Just bringing this back to the tope for BeerCan and DDG - is it the one 'hydraulic' incident, or are there two 'hydraulic' events we are talking about ?