ATPLS and the benefits of where you get them

[whereisjohn]

Was wondering if anyone can lend some insight as to the value of where one sits or obtains their Frozen ATPL... ie, is there any advantage to obtaining/writing the ATPL exams in Ireland as opposed to the UK?

Thanks

[MorningGlory]

I imagine you mean; advantage to any potential employer in the future?

If so then the answer is NO. It'll make no difference whatsoever, most of them couldn't care less as long as you get good results.

Three pieces of advice:

1. dont give up your job while training.
2. do it distance learning while working.
3. go to bristol groundschool or oxford.

[Saitek]

don't agree entirely with last comment. Employers do care where you trained in many instances. Many only look at at Oxford or BAE grads and these schools have some associations with some airlines.

Where I do agree with the last comment is that for the vast majority of us, good grades at 'wherever' are all that counts because 95% of people get their interviews from inside contacts and recommendations.

Classic who you know and not what or where

[GrantT]

Many only look at at Oxford or BAE grads

Mind backing that up?

[Megaton]

Saitek,

Just because you've swallowed the tripe that the Oxford marketing department gushes don't expect everyone to believe it! If you feel you need a nice, structured environment to get you through that's fine but it doesn't apply to everyone.

I would concur with your last remarks regarding "inside knowledge." Unless you're very lucky ie right time, right place, a contact who can drop your cv on the right desk will be more useful than almost anything else.

[Saitek]

I assume by your use of the words "swallowed that tripe" you went for a cheaper option.

I was an airline industry MD before flight school so I did not "swallow" anything, I trained at Oxford and I am glad I did and I carefully considered many options. i made my decision not on money (as most are forced to) or sales pitches but on advice from a few serving Airline pilots and Airline recruiters.

Maybe there is not much difference in the quality of the leading schools and others we do still get the same licence but then some would say there isn't any difference between Ford and BMW cars they both get you from A to B, Kelloggs or Happy Shopper cornflakes, they're both food.

You get what you pay for and maybe some of those £1000's is for perceived reputation, I cannot compare but I don't go slating people for being "cheap skates for not going to Oxford or BAE"

Employers know the long term pedigree of these schools and can quantify the quality, they do increase the percentages in a bunch of 1000 CV's even if the training is comparable, which as I said, I cannot compare.

Ryanair have just taken a load of low hours pilots direct from Oxford only and are taking a lot more, but don't bother going direct, you will not get anywhere, you'll be deflected to apply through GEcat, FlyBe are going to only Oxford for low hours, GB will only look at top of the class from Oxford or BAE and no others.

These are a few examples, that can be bypassed wherever you trained if you know the right people

[whereisjohn]

Thanks for the info and ideas. My reasoning behind the question was yes, directed towards how an airline might consider someone and where they have done their ATPL's.

I have chosen to do the ATPL's through Pan Aviation in Dublin who is associated with Bristol Groundschool, though it will be an IAA ATPL I will have issued rather than a UK. This is where my confusion stemmed -- would it matter to an airline, an IAA fATPL or UK fATPL.

Thanks again for the help.

John

[Saitek]

John,

Not sure it really matters, my licence is issued by the UK CAA but it is a JAA Flight crew licence, Ireland is a JAR member sate so whilst yours will be issued by the Irish CAA it will also be a JAA licence.

Good luck with your training, Word is that Bristol is excellent.

[JT8]

Saitek,


FlyBe are going to only Oxford for low hours

Oh right....thats why they have sponsored elsewhere for the last 7ish years :rolleyes:

[Saitek]

JT8 Yeah that is right,

The reason all ab initio cadets go through Cabair is they have a massive concessionary agreement with them and have done since the days of Jersey European.

All qualified low hours to come from only Oxford.

Except of course unless you get recommended from within.

Thats not from me or Oxford marketing thats from Don Darby at FlyBe.

[FLYbyWIT]

No matter where you train you can be assured that they have had past students pass through there ranks who are now flying for various airlines, so yes Oats have had a number of guys go to the likes of ryanair and others but the larger majority of newbies getting work are a mixed bunch of other students from all walks of life, NFC in weston for e.g (and no I am not assosiated with them) have had a lot of guys go into ryanair and cityjet over the last number of years so dont get hung up on it, just do what suits you and your pocket.
Pan aviation are'nt to bad and you should'nt have any reservations about applying to an airline with either the IAA or the CAA license. There may be just a small paper work issue in relation to it but if the company wants you they are not going to turn you down due to your JAA country of license issue.

[Kempus]

hi,

So, what happens then when you do say, ground school, IR and MCC at say OAT or BAE modular and do the basic up to CPL hours elsewhere? Oh and not in that order.

I know it opens the question of having a training record but basic airmanship is learned through flying, and the more airline orintated flying at the end of a course. Is it not this stage that they look it? So could you not do the first bit cheapish then go for the big names?

I dont know but just thinking if anyones knows. How does a fATPL stand when gained through modular training at a big name school?

kempus

Oh, and do they put your name forward should you have marks as equally as good as those on a full time course?

[gomez]

Nail on the head Kempus.

Its my mentality exactly. Id like to know about this cos I think it's the best idea for my training. The only downside I can see is that the 'big school' won't necessarily 'help' you in any way to get employment. Good people who pass through their integrated route will get their names put forward if airlines approach them. They have paid top dollar though................

[Send Clowns]

SaitekFlyBe are going to only Oxford for low hoursIs just not true. They came to SFT not long before it went bust to talk to us, it seems unlikely they have changed rapidly to restrict options as their requirement for pilots increased. I also know a (non-OATS) who has had an interview more recently. Cannot say anything specific on the rest, but I suspect it is a similar falacy.Employers know the long term pedigree of these schools and can quantify the qualityThen considering pass rates for flying training, how can you justify the rest of your statements? Surely quality has to have some effect on pass rates, but the best first-time modular IRT pass rates I know of are at small schools, considerably higher than OATS. Therefore employers should recruit at those schools.You get what you pay forHow do you justify that? The most expensive groundschool I know of has class sizes more than twice those of at least two of the cheaper ones I could mention. The cheapest groundschool I know is about 45% of the price of the most expensive, with similar class sizes. One expensive modular IR course I know of gives very bad service to flying students. Other, cheap ones I know of in at least 5 schools are known to give excellent service, and availability of flights.

My apologies for seeming to dig at OATS and other schools offering integrated as well as modular courses, that is not my intention. Even as an employee of a competitor I respect them, even ifI do not like some of their disingenuous sales techniques. I don't like to see their marketing guff repeated as gospel truth.

The positive comments I make are not intended to refer to my employer, but a variety of small schools. This is intended to get people to see a wider perspective, not as marketing guff for us.

P.S. If you want a genuine airline link, save your money, go modular, spend £9000 of the £14000 you save going for the MCC/JOC at CTC McAlpine, which was officially used as a recruitment tool for EasyJet. My info is a little out of date, but if it hasn't changed then Easy skim off the top there, to add to their pile they get from all the sources around.

[Watchoutbelow]

Not sure about the fixed wing world, but helicopter employers,
IN IRELAND prefer UK issued CAA licenses, employers in Ireland know the IAA and try to deal with them everyday and know how incompetent they are.


May seem strange to anybody who has ever had dealings with the UK CAA that there are people out there, worse then them!

[Saitek]

send clowns in response

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FlyBe are going to only Oxford for low hours
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe i did not word that correctly I did not mean to imply "have always previously" if that's the way you read it

Flybe employee said recently all current and future low hours qualified recruitment will be from Oxford plus the 6 or so per year from their ab initio scheme at Cabair.

I am the last person who would swallow some of the sales junk that Oxford come out with, someone in Flybe told me that was their current plan.

quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then considering pass rates for flying training, how can you justify the rest of your statements? Surely quality has to have some effect on pass rates, but the best first-time modular IRT pass rates I know of are at small schools, considerably higher than OATS. Therefore employers should recruit at those schools.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are absolutely right, given an even playing field, I only got a partial I/R, I know of someone who failed two I/R's at Oxford then went to a smaller school and passed first time.
He still thought that Oxford was a lot better, I cannot compare.

What do I mean by even playing field?

The guy that I know who passed at a smaller school went there becasuse they only had two possible I/R routes :cool: .

But Oxford being slap bang in the middle of the country has:

Bristol - Filton - Oxford, Bristol - Gloucester-Oxford, Filton-Gloucester-Oxford, Southampton-Bournemouth-Oxford, Exeter-Bournemouth-Oxford,Birmingham-Gloucester-Oxford,Birmingham-Coventry-Oxford, Coventry-Cranfield-Oxford,Cambridge-Cranfield-Oxford,East Midlands-Coventry-Oxford, East Midlands-Cranfield-Oxford. :ooh:

Now each one of us should be able to plan and execute a flight anywhere with one hours planning, but 11 commonly used routes, Slightly more difficult to prepare for in 35 hours of which only 25ish is route flying?

How many routes does your place have?

[Megaton]

Saitek,

Give it a rest and listen to what Rob Lloyd has to say here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116828&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

[Send Clowns]

Saitek

I know 4 modular schools in one airport that has a lot more than 2 possible routes (I think 8 are reasonable, although only 6 common). They encompass pretty much all possible variety of NDB hold and approach at the distant airfield (with/without DME, NDB off airfield etc), and different aspects of joining the airway, with a couple of specific problems (like one route so short the entire test profile can be packed into 1.1 hours airborne, very busy indeed). I think from flying at that airfield (which I did) I could have coped with any test route. Yet taking just the two schools for whom I know the rough pass rate and with whom I have no connection, I can say that their first-time pass rates are up with Oxford's claimed pass rate for integrated students. None of the students in either of these are sponsored, neither has selection by aptitude test. If you compare with the best guess of OATS overall pass rate (from the estimates of people I know who went there for part of the training and know a lot of people, adjusted upward due to exspected exaggeration. They don't boast about this pass rate) they are higher.

[Saitek]

Ham Phisted............ read it and?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it a rest and listen to what Rob Lloyd has to say here:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting opinion by Mr Lloyd maybe all true?

I have no affilliation with Oxford other than having done training there, I am not defending them nor would I ever spout any of the sh** that they portray as fact, many of the points made against large FTO's and their marketing I totally concur with.

But next time someone writes that I, specifically, am making claims that "are simply untrue", having spoken to someone in FlyBe................. I'll offer no reply

If someone offers reasons why smaller FTO's are better because of their higher success rates and uses that to state that " I have no justification for my statements"............... Even if I believe it's not a fair argument without looking at all the factors............. I'll just say nothing

would that make you happier :ok:

Send clowns:

A good and balanced response thank-you, I was not making shoot from the hip comments based on third party speculation, maybe Oxfords training is worse, it is certainly more expensive, you would know more than I in your position, everyone knows that the costs paid are higher than the actuals. Like I said before I cannot compare you probably can make more of an informed opinion. I am not fighting Oxfords battles for them nor do I want to be perceived as doing so, I have many grievances against what they said and what they did, my points were on outside perception. I'll say no more on this thread :ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Interesting thought about doing the MCC at CTC McAlpine. Seems to me a lot of their trainers are training cadets one minute, conducting airline interview assessments the next and later on running training courses for current crews.

Were one to sparkle and shine on ones self sponsored MCC course with those instructors it could only help in any future application to CTC or any of their customer airlines... Indeed, begging a reference off one of them might look good on the CV if the referee was intimately involved with selecting, training and upgrading an airlines pilot workforce. As is the case with easyJet and CTC.

That said, the recruiting department probably wouldn't notice, never mind care.

Its not a fair world.

Good luck,

WWW

[PPRuNe Towers]

Saitek,

While you may have stepped out of the hurly burly of this thread you might want to keep an weather eye on the other one mentioned.

The forum is avidly read by the FTO's and very experienced pilots lurk as well. I've very pointedly invited rebuttal under my real name because it is fact not opinion.

Regards
Rob

[Kempus]

Hey folks!

Well some of the points highlighted have been answered, some not.

Perhaps the big one which hasn't is do the big name schools put your name forward if you are doing a modular course and not an integrated one!

Someone must know!

kempus

[Baron buzz]

It seems to me, and I know I am simply a student, but this is my opinion, that Its not what you know, but either who you know or being in the right place at the right time. Im hoping that this is not always the case, but Ive heard from many people that it is.

I did my ATPL groundschool training in London, which was constantly getting slagged off from people that I spoke to. The truth is, im finishing the exams with the same end result as everyone else - 14 ATPL exam passes. Since its the CAA that set the playing field for the exams, why should it matter where you did them, if you have been taught the knowledge to pass them. This, in my opinion goes for the flight training as well. Since its the CAA that in effect test your skills, why should it matter who taught it to you?

If indeed the above is the case, can someone in an airline actually justify why someone who paid over the odds for their training and who has the same flying qualifications (frozen ATPL) stand a better chance than someone who also holds a frozen ATPL and went somewhere they could afford?

I hope the above doesnt read 'im against Oxford' because that is certainly not the case!

[Megaton]

BB,

We'll have less of that common-sense round here, if you don't mind!

You're absolutely right. Phrases about emperors and new clothes spring to mind.

[Danny]

I'd like to make a point here. Whilst I am just a line pilot with no management or training ambitions, I was directly involved with and designed the questionnaire as well as helped in the selection to recruit the 5 pilots for the PPRuNe/Astraeus B737 cadet scheme nearly two years ago. For those of you who are not familiar with the scheme, PPRuNe and Astraeus joined forces and we advertised for fATPL's who had no previous airline or jet experience to apply for selection as B737 first officers with the newly formed company.

Eligibility for application was a UK or JAA fATPL, class I medical and the right of abode and work in the EU. Just under 200 eligible pilots applied and completed the on-line questionnaire. Out of those I had to select 25 for interview and out of those 25, a team of us selected 10 for simulator assessment and 5 were offered a B737 type rating and temporary employment leading to a full time offer of employment after six months of line flying.

The five candidates who were selected have all been with Astraeus since their courses and are now seasoned and experienced B737 pilots with a varied and wide range of line flying experience on at least 3 continents. Some of them post on here from time to time with advice for those of you starting out on their careers as do others with even more experience.

My point is, at no time when I had to narrow down the field of almost 200 candidates to 25 did I take into consideration where any of the candidates had studied for their licences. As long as they had the licence they were considered and it came down to how they presented themselves in their applications. There was no scientific formula and as long as their enthusiasm, maturity, intelligence and attitude shone through then they had a chance.

Once the field was narrowed down to 25 the task became more difficult but even at this stage, where they had studied and gained their licence had no bearing. Personality, attitude and charisma were the order of the day and I don't think that any fo those traits are taught or examined at any flight training establishment. After a couple of entertaining group exercises the 25 were given two on one interviews with the same series of questions being asked as well as a chance for them to quiz us and highlight their own reasons for applying.

At this stage their flying skills and knowledge were not being evaluated. They all had the minimum requirements and had been examined by the CAA or their local aviation authorities and had at least the minimum standards as they all had been issued with a fATPL. There were eight of us doing the selection. We were a mix of airline and non-airline people including an air-traffic controller, current and ex-airline pilots, some with training experience, some with management experience and some with no flying experience. We were looking for all-round, personable individuals who were likely to fit in with others already in the business. They had to be people we could be confined with for 10 or more hours at a time in a small cockpit and they had to be determined and highly motivated in order to complete a gruelling B737 type rating course.

Out of the 25 candidates who made it to the interviews we selected 10 for simulator assessment. They ranged in age from very early twenties to early forties. They included some who had studied at the big schools on fully approved courses and others who had studied mostly at home on correspondence courses and flight trained wherever they could get the best deal. It was probably more difficult narrowing down to the 10 than it was selecting the final five as flying skill and ability were always going to be easier to assess. Once we were in to simulator assessment it was a case of learning ability. At this stage it is possible that the quality of flight training MAY have been able to have an influence but finally it came down to accuracy, an aptitude to learn rapidly from mistakes, mental capacity and attitude. Those candidates who hadn't had any recent or regular flying experience were easy to spot and found it much more difficult, as expected. In the end though, it was a difficult choice but the five lucky candidates have turned out to be the right choice and have all integrated well into the job.

So, as far as PPRuNe and Astraeus were concerned it was not of any benefit where you actually studied for your fATPL as long as you had a valid one. All a licence shows is that you have met the minimum standards upon examination by your local aviation authority. I'm sure that some companies believe otherwise and it probably comes down to where training management pilots did their own training. In my case I did all my studying at home with correspondence courses and my flying training was wherever I could get the best deals. One establishment for the CPL flying and a different one for the IR.

It is my belief that you have to have some experience of life other than just school and/or college/university. Some of the applicants had very little if any life experience. Others had personalities that hindered them rather than helped them. The successful ones were those who had all round experience and abilities. Having the licence alone is not enough and unfortunately there are some people who don't realise that it takes more than just obtaining a fATPL to get a job. You also need enthusiasm, ambition, aptitude, determination, luck, a life and a personality. Now you tell me which training establishments provide most of those traits? Be honest with yourselves and make sure you have at least all those things before you even consider seriously laying out good money on your future career ambitions.

[pa28biggles]

Danny,
I must say thank you for taking your time to write that, its very inspiring. I'm studying for my ATPL theory at the moment, and it is easy with all the studying to loose sight of the very goal that I am studying for.
It's also good to hear information 'from the horses mouth' - from a line pilot that has experience of recruiting new pilots. I am taking the modular route, and to be honest, even if I had £60K, I would still take the modular route. With all the saved money, I would go on a few luxury holidays and do lots of flying to gain more experience. So spending £60K the modular route means more flying experience and more fun. :)

[Send Clowns]

Saitek

I have a friend starting at FlyBE. Althought my friend went through an integrated course, at least 2 of those on the same FlyBE entry studied on modular courses. Remember, what they say and what they do can be very different things, as people I know who have been promised jobs find out!

[VanderVlietm]

Now look what you have done John! :*

Created a whole list of confusing and different points of view. Why are you back in Ireland my friend what happened to SA?

From Mack Air


(The Dark Continent)