Dubious morals

[k2climber]

So I contacted a skydiving company the other day looking for work and here's the reply they gave me:

Cut and Paste

"The way we operate in South Africa is totally different to other
countries. Our pilots are not paid to do the flying they do for the
skydiving club. The reason we work this way in South Africa is that
there are more than enough pilots looking for work to build hours, they fly and build hours to enable them to complete their commercial rating and in return we have their services."

I love the tone of the message: it's almost as though this is something we pilots expect and endorse. Say what you will, as long as ignorant and immoral operators and pilots continue to proliferate this system of "no compensation for services rendered", the industry will continue to be like it is.

[freightboss]

K2climber,

I suppose being from Canada qualifies you to make judgments on the South African aviation scene...

How it works here, is that PPL pilots are not allowed to fly for gain. This leaves a PPL pilot with one of two options:

If he/she is fortunate, either dad (of the normal or sugar or any other variety) has extremely deep pockets to sponsor the 150 odd hours, or

Make a loan at the bank (yeah right - no work, no pay, no loan) for the equivalent of $40.000,00 (I forgot - this is play money for our rich cousins from the northern hemisphere) or about R280.000,00 in our play money to do a structured course.

Now most of the PPL do not fall in either of these categories and have to scratch together the money for the hours. If they are able to do 5 hours a month, they are very lucky.

Here is where the sky-diving clubs come in. Most own the aircraft they use and it is just about the only opportunity a young PPL has to build hours without falling into the " may not fly for gain" trap.

He is not paid to fly, nobody contrubutes for his fuel, accommodation or anything else, the insurance is happy as long as the chappy is correctly rated, and lo and behold he flies. The result is that everybody is happy, except you of course....

What I am trying to say is that you are welcome to come and fly in our beautiful country, but please read up and research a bit more before making rash judgements on our system.

[Amabokoboko]

It's also simple market economics, the rights to which half the free world seems commited to foisting on everyone else. The price charged for a service offered decreases in relation to the number of people willing and able to provide it. Supply and demand lad!

Or are you suggesting that we go the price fixing route? If we started running SA aviation as a controlled market, you can bet your bottom dollar no foreign pilots would be allowed in to take 'our' jobs anyway, so you would still lose.

As long as the PPL in question is capable of doing the job, let him at it, I say.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I built hours for my CPL that way and unless things have changed the clubs prefer skydivers to do the job as they understand what is required. I managed to get in because of my connections to the sport (been at it since 1978 and have a number of ratings and licences) and I know as a non-skydiver it can get pretty difficult. As far as payment goes the best I managed was a few beers at night while telling war stories to the younger jumpers. Make no mistake, the work is tedious and tiring. After flying upwards of 12 loads a day, refuelling every two loads, being up early to drive out to the club (over 200km from home) and preflight the aircraft, putting it to bed at night, not eating all day and only getting something to drink if someone takes pity on you and sends out a lukewarm Coke, all you want to do in the evenings is go to bed and sleep. The flying is technically demanding as fuel and engine management is critical to accomplish fast turnarounds so your concentration levels will have to remain high at all times..

I flew over 1000 hours of paradropping before doing a Comm and have flown some pretty dire pieces of junk. If you have hangups don't even try it, the blokes will eat you alive. If you intend doing your 200 hours and then leaving to get a Comm, forget it. They want someone comitted to the club and you can kiss your social life goodbye as you are out there every weekend and weekends off to visit your sick granny will get you a load of lip you won't believe. Remember you're there to provide a service and they won't let you forget it.

In short, if you think you'll get in at a club as a pilot it's a long hard road and you'd better think carefully about other options as you may even be asked to do a first jump course before being accepted. Also look into the options of a liver transplant as you'll consume a vast amount of beer if you get involved with this lot.

[Biggles in Africa]

Viva "The Third World".

There is still hope for us flying types out here.

Is that why all the miserable First World types keep seeking employment/flying hours in this neck of the woods?

:hmm:

[B Sousa]

Freightboss Writes:"You do know everything, don't you....
K2climber,
I suppose being from Canada qualifies you to make judgments on the South African aviation scene...
How it works here, is that PPL pilots are not allowed to fly for gain.

FreightBoss, Your answer appears you may be a bit on the defensive, relax.
Point being is that All over the World Skydivers Pay to become Meat Missles. That makes flying Skydivers a Commercial Operation therefore requiring a Commercial license at the minimum.
Lots of folks out there fly for free to build time, but also in other countries risk loss of license when not obeying the rules. I doubt South African Rules allow Commercial Operations with a PPL. Guess its just a matter of what some call "Commercial Operations"

Bert
(USPA #1980)

[George Tower]

Interesting to know what the exact ruling is on this one. Not flying for gain is one thing but a PPL doing drops.....reminds me a bit of the Huey saga.

I have to say the original post was a bit judgemental......although they probably do it differently in Canada. Being close to the US I guess you chaps over are very conscious of the legal sharks waiting to jump in.

Building my hours I have spent about R100,000 and I for one would see flying for free as a bonus especially during my training.

There other issues here. I note that many professional pilots may be dismayed by the idea that people may want to fly for free and the precedents that creates. Unfortunately we do live in a free(ish) society and so the forces of the free markets rule. I do have a problem though and that is what other profession would trainees have to cough up such large amounts of cash in advance. Cartianly not medicine, law or accountancy.

Bottom line is that the freemarket rules and do operators take advantage they sure as hell do but that's life. If you don't like it get your own business (or join a union).

[Kiwi Flyer]

Bert is right, if someone is paying to be in your aircraft (and believe me skydivers are paying) then it becomes a commercial operation! Therefore the pilot must hold a minimum of a commercial rating. Just because your not getting paid (and thats a different story, talk of a free world etc is just jargon, those of you who fly for free are ruining the industry...it is that simple!) doesnt mean you can have a PPL, you are breaking the law, and so is the company you are flying for!

KF

[Cardinal Puff]

The AC owner rents the aircraft to the club who use it for skydiving. Usually private AC but some are club owned and pilot is normally a club member dropping other club members so it becomes an internal thing and doesn't require a CPL as far as I know (Industrial Aid?). Bit of a grey area I know but that's how it works here.

[B Sousa]

CP Writes:"Bit of a grey area I know but that's how it works here.""

Sort of like a Huey Extreme Club...........Members helping Members..

[Cardinal Puff]

Dat am de one, Baas Bert!:ok:

k2:

What morals are we talking about here and why do you see them as dubious? Do a little research before making statements that knock something you obviously know little about.

[George Tower]

I think we need to seperate several issues here.

I don't have a moral problem with a group of guys going parachuting, and a PPL flying the a/c. What the legal position is exactly on this I don't know.

What I do know though is that there was a topic on here a few months ago about the crappy pay and conditions that a lot of contract operators were paying their crews as many pilots were offering their services for free so they could build hours. As KiwiFlyer points out this has a bad effect on the whole industry and is a seperate issue from a few guys or gals going out for some parachuting at weekends.

I think the issue of people flying for free as part of a commercial operation is something that is worrying for the industry. I may have professed be a fan of the free market, but equally so I have a problem with someone doing a highly skilled professional job for no remuneration - I think it creates a mind set where one probably cares less about safety.

The question is what to do about it. It is all very well for people to make a stand - BUT as a young CPL with 250 hours you aren't exactly in a position to call the shots.

[Cardinal Puff]

It's a club thing. Not many CPLs involved in skydiving flying so no pay. Margins are pretty tight too with most clubs just making it on A/C payments, insurance, fuel and so forth. The couple of comms I know of are building multi time as they fly C208s for a JHB company so they do it for mahala. There are a couple of ATPs also flying jump ships but that's more a fun thing than for remuneration as that 73/72/747 gets pretty boring after a while.

I agree that CPLs shouldn't fly for free for a commercial operation as that affects us all but the club flying is still a nice perk for those of us prepared to put in the hard yards by waking up at ungodly hours, driving long distances and eating a huge amount of sh1t from jumpers. Mosquito infested sleeping quarters, monster hangovers and long days without food or water are just the icing on the cake.

[B Sousa]

CP Writes:" those of us prepared to put in the hard yards by waking up at ungodly hours, driving long distances and eating a huge amount of sh1t from jumpers. Mosquito infested sleeping quarters, monster hangovers and long days without food or water are just the icing on the cake."

I remember those days...........They called it the Military. Ha Ha

[Cardinal Puff]

In the days before skydiving became a trendy yupster "extreme" sport things could get a little ripe in the aircraft on a hot summers day. Showers were something that participants in effete sports like rugby and wrestling partook of and health and smart drinks were no match for a lukewarm beer and a garlic steak. It was hell in there, I tell you......

Power to the Putrid!:ok:

[B Sousa]

CP Writes:"It was hell in there, I tell you......"


I think I answered it in my first post.........(USPA #1980) www.uspa.org

Your singing to the Choir

[helldog]

Sorry boys I can not agree to flying for free when it helps fill some other persons pockets. PPL or not. It took me eight years to go from student licence to CPL because I did not have the funds.

In any other industry people who work for less or free to cut someones grass are called SCABS.

I was offered a job a month or so ago for less than half what they should pay. I said no sir. I am not a cheap s!ut and I am not going to do that to you lads. Imagine this. I take the job with sh!t pay. Then one day you are down on your luck and this is the only job you can find. This bloke is just going to say to you 'Well the last guy did the job for X pay' And he will expect you to do the same. You might be stuck for a while with a job that gives you nothing.

Ok fine you think jump pilots should be able to fly for free. Well then make it a non profit operation. Get the jumpers to cover only the cost of fuel and maitenance, and the jump instructors should work for free also. Think anyone would do this? I think not

[B Sousa]

Helldog hit the Message out there for those who didnt catch the tune. I lost my seasonal job this year because they found some guy with a few dollars who wanted to fly for free. The company was a bit sleezy anyway and this just put a few more coins in the Staff pockets. So much for experience being worth something.
You want a Pilot to fly for free then you will never get one in the same job who will be paid.
Wait ill SAA starts cutting pay, because they can get cheaper Pilots. Bet you will hear some Silent Screams then.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

It doesn't matter if you think it's fair or not. It's been done like that over here for years and you'll not change anything. The skydivers are not going to pay more to suit some CPL they don't know from a bar of soap. As for instructors, they have nothing to do with flight operations so why target them. The aircraft is a seperate entity in the club and not really a profit making enterprise. Most clubs make their money on training, beer and snacks are sold by a franchisee with a possible cut for the club. Any profit made after aircraft costs goes into gear maintenance and looking after the premises. I've run a club in the past and the finances and logistics are no fun.

Bert, the bloke who took your job had nothing to do with skydiving, I take it. It's a whole operation on it's own and that's how it's done here. If a CPL wants to come and fly he's welcome but it's the old thing of fit in or f... off!

[126,7]

I was involved at Carletonville for a short while. Yes, flying for free. There were a couple of guys flying, and most were CPL trying to get their hour-tally up. The club wasn't going to pay them, as that is a completely unheard of thing to do. You were welcome to stay over at the clubhouse for the weekend and they did sponsor towards grub and maybe a coke or two. They, or any other club in SA will never have a shortage of finding pilots just because its so damn expensive to pay for your own hours!
The only club that runs things a little different is Wonderboom, where the owners pole the planes. Or used to anyway. Besides, not too many PPLs around who have a porter on their license.
Re the jumpmasters and jump instructors: They are not part of the aircraft operations as Rusty Twotter has pointed out, but part of the club and most of them get rewarded with free jumps instead of $$$$.

[Jacobest]

This topic is SOOOooooo old. I am sick of it. Cause none of you so called PILOTS out there are willing to do something about it. You ALL moan and bitch your lungs out (At Braai's , functions, internet) yet when it comes time to do something, the big moaners are the first to take the crummy jobs for the SH!T pay.
I have now been sitting without a job for 8 months because some spineless *****did not go through on a threat they all were going to. I stood my ground and if they did, we all would have had better jobs today. BITTER **** you say. Yes I am bitter. At least I am not willing to whore myself out like you do. And for all those idiots with the low time who say "BUT WE HAVE TO" B.S. (for those who don’t know what B.S. is, take a bull and sit him in it) It is because you have that attitude that Charter companies take advantage of you. And I am talking about slimy Charter companies, cause believe me, there are good Charter Companies out there.

And in the mean time, the biggest culprits are all those Airline boys who read this forum and laugh all the way to the bank.
Here is an example. Slut A works for PAA airlines. On his off days he sits at home and ***** off. Then one day he decides, HEY! let me fly on my off day. So he goes to the Charter companies and say, Hey I am MR. Big shot with my ATP and my cushy airline job. I will only charge you 10 clamshells in stead of the usual 25. The charter company says, HOLY CRAP! here is this "over qualified" pilot who wants to work for us for almost nothing while Joe Soap wants 25 clams. :mad: him..
So all of a sudden Joe Soap has no more work while Slut A earned himself 5000 clams extra for the month to drink.
Joe Soap could have used that to feed his starving wife.
You know what the real JOKE is. Eventually it has trickled up to the Airlines, because all of a sudden, I hear Airline Pilots moaning about their salaries because there are pilots who are willing to fly for almost nothing in the industry. SO HOW YOU OKES FEEL KNOW!!!!!!!

In all seriouness, the ONLY way, and I mean the ONLY way this problem will ever be solved, is if the charter industry gets regulated. Once that happens, Guess what, no more Sh!T rates, no more overloaded aircraft and no more scaly operators like a certain chieftain operator out of RAND who killed a whole group of Computer guys.
HOW DO WE DO IT???? DUH
Every guy that gets a CPL ticket with the CAA automatically gets a ticket for a union. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. You pay your 5% due to them and they regulate the rates, the jobs and the terms. And if a pilot then oversteps the boundaries, HIS OUT, FINISHED, KAPUT. NO MORE FLYING.
YES, BUT HOW DO YOU REGULATE THE UNION????
The PILOTS regulate the union.

The best thing about this forum, It will fade back into the woodwork like all those MOANERS.

So Please, read this, moan at the moderator, let them BAN me from PPrune for talking the truth, Cause you know what, I have had it with all you spineless *****.

[126,7]

Jacobest
You must have a really BIG piggybank if you can afford not to whore yourself out like the poor other :mad: you mention. They dont have piggybanks and they do have starving wives, and probably starving rugrats too.
As long as there is an over supply of crew, there will be guys doing the dirty work cheaply.
You can rant and rave as much as you want, its not going to change a thing, least of all improve your blood pressure.
How do you plan on keeping your ratings current? Oohhh forgot about your piggybank, unless you have a friend who is an instructor and will fly with you for free in the other friends aerie who lets you use it for free.
Its how it works...............and always will!!

[B Sousa]

Twotter Writes:"Bert, the bloke who took your job had nothing to do with skydiving, I take it."
True.
Although Skydiving is involved in this thread. I do believe the Punch Line is Pilots who work for free to build some hours.
As to Skydiving Clubs making little or no money, thats a Management thing. If your running one on a shoestring, you had better change methods. I have a couple examples here in the states where the owner has a P-51 with a couple extra engines and a few more aircraft all paid for by Meat Missles. Lots of the DZs make good money. On the other hand my first jump many moons ago was with a 28'TU with holes in it that were not modifications.
As to the Pilots, they are part of the Flying Community first and Skydivers Community second, whether or not they are members of the Club. It may be "Traditional" for Pilots to fly skydivers as a PPL in SA. The FAA in the States says you can fly for free all you want, but if it meets FAR 61.133 (a) (1) (i)(ii) you better have a Commercial license. Bet things are due to change..........

Jacobest, A little venting is OK.Dont give up. Most Pilots around the world are in your shoes and I think many agree with you...
As to the Union thing that may sound like a quick fix but here in the states some Unions other than Aviation have priced themselves out of work....
I really dont know the answer..

[Jacobest]

126.7
Maybe if you realised that there is more in life than just flying, you might actually find another job in another sector, and then you don’t need a PIGGY BANK.

At least now I know where your family put their money. Now its lost somewhere in your license just like Buck Rogers was lost in your head (oops, I meant space) or know wait, it's the same place. Have you found your mountain yet?


B Souza
At least you guys had or have unions in the states so you can talk from experience, which I respect, but remember also Airline pilots in the States that get fur longed or that try to fly for charter companies are shot away very quick, Unlike in South Africa where the only union is the Airline union. Here pilots moan all the time but NO one is willing to do something about it. Now you have a guy like 126.7 who is so thick skulled that he cannot see past the bloody cockpit. I have done for 8 months, why cant he? And if he can then do it eventually, so can someone else. Before you know it, Charter companies are struggling to find pilots. Our other problem in South Africa is flying schools; the number of pilots churned through the system is also not regulated. No wonder there is TOO many of these spineless winers out there. If there was a UNION, at least they could regulate that too. But you are right, VENTING helps, but I am past that stage. I chose to be in control of my life:ok:

[George Tower]

Seems we have a pretty colourful discussion going on here. In my view there is no right answer here. Aviation seems to have set a precedent as there is no other career I know of where one has to pay so much for their training up front with no guarantees what so ever, in other words we prostitute ourselves.

There are certain irrefutable facts that will affect pilot pay and the whole flying for free issue.

1. Supply and demand. The industry is cyclic and if there's more pilots than jobs guess what pay cheques wont be huge. That's economics and no amount of regualtion will solve that.

2. As for training - well after the cold war went away there certainly isn't the large number of opportunities in the military there once was. Same goes for SA I guess.

3. National carriers are no longer the big inefficient corporate monstrocities they once were and so there's lack of opportunity for sponsorship - unless of course you're black.


Getting back to the whole union debate I believe it is something that we need to tread carefully with. BAPLA in the UK mainly just look after the old fat captains of the world - the young CPLs like myself have no one to support them. Quite often the advice I get from people in the RH seat is just to take whatever job you can. In other words you are made to feel like a begger and not a professional person.

Unions generally restrict growth. If you want to regulate for the sake of regualtion you will never allow growth to be achieved to it's fullest potential. Whenever I see the word "regulation" I shiver as having had my own business this generally means being told what to do by incompetant beaurocrats (in this case the CAA) and generally having to fork out much more money to prove you comply with whatever regulation they have dreamed up.

Jacobeast, I very much sympathise with your point of view but the question is HOW would you bring about the outcome you want. Given that most of Africa is governed by corrupt buffoons how on earth can pilot's salaries be regulated where in oder to get anything done palms require greasing.

Just thinking off the top of my head I guess the best way forward would be for the CAA to have to audit all commercial operators financially so they could verify that a minimum wage was being paid. Pilots could go straight to the CAA if they were being ripped off. If the minimum wage is set at a suitable level there is no reason to believe this would adversely affect the industry.

Something like what I describe might work in a continent like Europe, but in Africa I don't think it will due to most governments not being able to organise a piss up in brewery.

[126,7]

Have you found your mountain yet?


You're one sick puppy dude, sitting at your pc spewing insults at everyone in general and frothing at the mouth. Get your act together or ask the doctor to increase your prescription.