Flyer Professional Flight Training Show 2004

[Half a Mexican]

I was nosing around Balpa's site and I saw a banner for this:

The FLYER Professional Flight Training Show - Saturday March 27 2004 (http://www.flyer.co.uk/PFTSsoon.php)

So...

Who's planning on going?

What's it like? Any comments from those who have attended the previous events?

(I know that comments have been posted but I can't find them as the search function is unavailable) :{

[gomez]

Get yourself down to Heathrow for it. Its well worth it. I went in November 2003. Speak to everyone there and go to all the seminars. Have a go on the Gapan aptitude tests and make the most of it.

Cheers

[Northern Highflyer]

Would love to go but I will be away on my brush up course in March. :(

Hopefully there will be others.

[no sponsor]

I would recommend it. It saves you driving around the country seeing all the different schools. Most distance learning schools bring their notes, so you can have a look through those. It also serves well as a shortlisting opportunity where you can work out which schools you will go and see in the flesh for either full-time courses or for the flying courses.

It does get very busy in-between seminars. If BA are speaking, everyone goes to listen to their pitch, so that's probably the best time to get the exhibition hall to yourself, and have some useful, quiet conversations. It's also at that time when you see just how many other people are thinking of training, and will be your competitor for those lucky jobs.

Parking is a complete farce, so its best to get there very early, or park in the terminals, and get the hotel hoppa bus.

[silverknapper]

I went to the flyer show in manchester a while back and can only back up all the positive comments here. Found it excellent in terms of meeting all the training providers. I was all set to go to Jerez until I went to it - glad i didn't!

[gomez]

Silverknapper

- interested in your comment about Jerez. What made you turn against it? I know theres been a mgmt buy out but I dont think the quality of the place has suffered, nor has it lost its status as a very good school.

[silverknapper]

Sorry guys - didn't mean this to be a slagging session of any schools - i know jerez has an excellent reputation. All I meant was that until that point I was prepared to go there, but was putting myself into more debt than I could really afford, which was increasing all the time as MJ told me on the stand that the price was going up yet again. I had never looked too thoroughly into Modular training until the show, and having spoken to lots of people there decided to go that way.

[gomez]

Ah - your in a similar situation to me then. I'd love to go to Jerez but the strength of the Euro is really not helping at the moment and it's a lot of money to spend. I too will probably be going down the modular route now.

[JohnnyPharm]

What about the fully integrated JAA course at WMU, works out about £46,000 all inbecause the £ is so strong against the $

[silverknapper]

JP

I don't want to start an old argument as to integrated vs modular so please don't take this as that. But by following a structured modular route it can be done for 10k less than that, in the same time and in the UK. Possibly even less if you hour build to some extent abroad.

Cheers

SK

[moo]

are BAe Jerez still trading under that name or have BAe Systems not allowed them to do so?
I.e. is it now called Joe, Pete, John & Dave's Flying School etc.

[Half a Mexican]

Thanks for the replies. Sounds like it's well worth going to.
Any tips on where to get lunch etc.?

[ATP_Al]

I've been to the last two shows and would definately recommend it! Both times I got some new and useful information, though I found that what the smaller operators (Atlantic/TNT) had to say was actually more relevant and useful than the big crowd pullers like the BA seminar.

As for lunch, you have a choice between the Hotel restaurant and McDonalds....:p

Al

[FireFoxDown]

Hi all,

I am also planning on attending this. I will be flying over from Dublin and my plan is to get an early flight over and a late flight back in the same day - do you think this would be ok(time-wise etc.) or would you recommend that i travel over the night before? Is the venue very near to Heathrow?

Many thanks! :ok:

[Half a Mexican]

FireFoxDown,

I think it would be quite possible to pop over for the day. It would be a long day mind.

As for the venue, it's pretty much as close to to Heathrow as you can get!

Might see you there.

HaM:}

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi FireFoxDown,

> Is the venue very near to Heathrow?

If you call looking out of the room that the seminar's are held in at a very small car park followed by a security fence, beyond which is a little grass then Runway 09L/27R close then yes it is! :D

As has been said, it is probably possible to do it in a day, need to have a flight arriving at Heathrow around 9am/9:30am though as he first seminar is usually 10:30am sharp (in BA words).

Grab a hotel bus from the terminal to the hotel... the hotel itself is just to the north and east of the concorde model overlooking the road tunnel to the central terminal complex.

I've been to both April and Novembers exhibitions and found the seminars and stalls excellent. The BA seminar though seems to be the same all the time, with the exception of "what is happening now in terms of recruitment".

"A Day in the Life of" seminar at April's show was excellent...

Shame the seminars seem to consist of the same companies as in the November exhibition.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[FireFoxDown]

Half A Mexican, Charlie Zulu -

Many thanks for the replies!! :ok: Im looking forward to it so do indeed expect to see me there with my little notebook! ;)

[Half a Mexican]

Hi All,

For those who are interested in going, tickets are now available. Either online here (http://www.flyer.co.uk/shop/department.php?Submit=Tickets&department=1)

Or by calling Maria on 01225 481440

Cheers,
--
HaM :}

[career girl]

Hi all, I was thinking of going too.

Think I've decided on what schools to do my training at though.

Is it still worth going to? U see I live in Ireland and with flights etc it could get costly!

Appreciate your opinion.

cheers

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Career Girl,

I'd say yes it is worth it, even for a third time (it will be mine).

The Seminar's are very interesting and the hall has all of the training schools, both modular and integrated under one big roof. You can talk to the staff, ask questions etc...

The ground schools take their notes and computer programs (if available) so you can take a look at them.

Its about the only place you can go where you can talk to all of the schools in person within a single day!!!

I've now decided upon my ground school but haven't quite started yet as I'm getting the FAA FOI and CFI exams out of the way first so will be starting my ATPLs in a couple of months time.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

Edit: Spelling mistakes!

[-<M4v3r1ck>-]

I'm sold :ok:

Will be strategically taking the day off from uni work. Getting the train down from Leicester at the very uncivilised hour of 7am :( The things I do...

Mav :O

[marts]

Someone mentioned there was a similar show in Manchester. Does anyone have details on this, and if there will another one in the near future?

I drove down to last Novembers show at H'Row, all the way from Manchester found it really useful, but the drive there and back in a day is a killer.

Thanks
Martin

[cfb]

I have a few complimentary (free of charge) tickets available.
Drop me a line with your postal address if you would like one forwarded.

cfb

[gomez]

I have 2 tickets to the aforementioned event if anyone is interested in them. I went last November and found it mighty useful. PM me and we'll sort something out.

The gomez

[Master Yoda]

Gomez, check your PM.

Someone sort me out with some tix pls.


Cheers



Scrounger Yoda:ouch:

[Jonny]

Yoda... i "won" one of these last week. Its first come first served apparently.

Looks like there are still some left. (thought this post may see to that!)

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/flyer.htm

[Little Black Box]

Went last time - found the goody bag they give you filled with lots of great information as well. I see it's sponsored by PPRUNE - is one of the mods going to be on a stand?

[cfb]

Still a few complimentary tickets left,

PM me with your address and I will mail by return.

cfb

[Charlie Zulu]

I'm going to raise this thread from the ashes...

Is there a plan for fellow ppruner's to meet up for lunch at the pub around the corner?

McDonalds was exceptionally busy last time... besides I've banned myself from McD's and have been a good boy for a couple of months so far!

I've just been told I've got a free ticket curtousy of a well known flying school in florida.

That £10 I've saved will be eaten up by the hurrendous car park charges though.

:D

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu

[eire_boy]

Have just got my free ticket from my friends in Florida :ok:

Looking forward to meeting fellow Ppruners:)

[PPRuNe Pop]

Not on a stand, but I will be there. Please come and say hello.

PPP

[Leezyjet]

I went today and came home with loads of useful info and a book containing all the questions that can possibly be asked in the PPL exams.

Didn't realise until reading this that there was an entry charge. I got there about 1330 and just walked right in for free !! Got to speak to all the people I wanted to and got all the info and attended the last seminar too. So don't think I missed out and saved a tenner by the sounds of it. :D

I was thinking of doing the Cabair course when I went to their seminar, but after speaking to the Multiflight people today, I think I'll head their way and my old folks live about 2 miles from their gaff so I can save a few hundred £ on accomodation and food costs too !!!.

:)

[jimbols6]

did anyone attend the BA seminar what do they have planned for this year? anyword on their sponsorship coming back to life? What are there plans, have the 140 pilots began to retire yet?

[Half a Mexican]

I went to the BA seminar.

The focus was on what life would be like for a new F/O in the first few months of being accepted in to BA.

They expect to be recruiting on to the 777 & 744 this summer. No specifics. But he hinted that the entry requirements would ba 2000hrs TT with 1000 (?) multi crew.

I heard no mention of the sponsorship being resurrected. But he did mention the possibility that BA would take on self sponsored integrated "cadets" should the need arise. The would be from "selected schools". He was asked to name them but declined saying it would be unfair to other schools.

Regarding retirements, he said that the time to command is currently 8-10 years. But this may rise in the future due to age discrimination law set to be introduced in October of 2006. This would mean that captains would be able to work past BA's current retirement age of 55. I expect a many will as no doubt that are on a bloody good wage and would rather near the top of the seniority list. This of course will push command times up.

P.S who are the 140?

--
HaM

[jimbols6]

cheers for the info mate!!!

[Capt. Manuvar]

To expand on what Half a Mexican said, i think ab initio wannabes are very far down the chain as far as BA are concerned. Their priorities at the moment are the following order
1. Experience type-rated 747/777 DE pilots
2. Experienced type rated DE pilots
3. Sponsored Integrated pilots
4. DE Self sponsored integrated pilots(as Half a Mexican has described above)
5. DE Self sponsored Modular pilots.
If you (wish to) fall within Groups 3,4 &5, i don't think the future is looking too good at the moment.
from what John Monks said, if the age discrimination law goes thru i think they'll scrap the the cadet scheme, they are already having difficulty justifying it to the board at the moment.
I would be careful about buying a typerating also. BA and Britannia would not really look at a typerated pilot without a minimum of around 500-1000hrs line experience.
Malcolm Dean pi$$ed of a lot of the FTOs when he said he didn't see the point of training in the UK:} .
It was an educating experience in general. If i recycle all the brochures i recieved, I might be able to pay for my training:E
Capt. manuvar

[pa28biggles]

Capt. Manuvar,
Who was Malcom Dean representing? An airline?

[Master Yoda]

Why weren't Western Michigan there can someone tell me?

[Leezyjet]

Malcolm Dean was there as an independant.

I was recommended to speak to him by Alex at Bristol GroundSchool and it was worthwhile, although he did just tell me to do what I'd already planned myself. (Multiflight Ab-initio).

He also said to me that doing the basic ppl and 150 hours over here is a waste of time and money as it's cheaper and quicker and more reliable weather wise to so it in the states. Although he said to do the FAA PPL which I found strange.

Did anyone get contact details for him, as I forgot as he had to go into the last seminar whilst I was with him ?. Doh !!.

PA28,

You work @ LBA ??? I used to work there a few years back for Circusair.

:)

[JB007]

Hey Leezyjet,
Check your PM's

[Time to Fly]

Master Yoda

I heard a rumour the program at WMU has already closed down and they are just finishing up the 2 students they currently have on the course.

I hope someone else will verify this for us.

TTF

[Half a Mexican]

I’m sure that Malcolm is very knowledgeable and has a lot of experience of the flight training industry. But I’m not too sure about him being all that independent.

In fact a lot of his knowledge and experience was no doubt gained during his time as the Head of Training at… Multiflight. In fact he is still listed as the head of training on some Multiflight web pages:Multiflight (http://www.multiflight.co.uk/news/aquisition.html)

So I’m just a tad sceptical when he goes to a flight training show offers his services as an "independent" advisor and spends the time plugging his (former?) employer.

Lets look at what he said:

He also said to me that doing the basic ppl and 150 hours over here is a waste of time and money as it's cheaper and quicker and more reliable weather wise to so it in the states. Although he said to do the FAA PPL which I found strange.

While this may be true, it’s just ever so coincidentally what Multiflight happen to offer on their Ab-initio course, FAA PPL and all.

Malcolm Dean pi$$ed of a lot of the FTOs when he said he didn't see the point of training in the UK.

I can’t say exactly what was meant by this without a bit more info but I assume it was along the line of the first point. Do the initial training and hour building in Florida and do the advanced stuff here. Which is exactly the system used by… Multiflight.

I was recommended to speak to him by Alex at Bristol GroundSchool and it was worthwhile, although he did just tell me to do what I'd already planned myself. (Multiflight Ab-initio).


Mmm… Self explanatory really.


Now I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with Multiflight or their training. I’m just saying that your evaluation of any information given on flight training should include an evaluation of the source of that information.


Cheers,

--
HaM

[Send Clowns]

Capt. Manuver

If you are self-sponsored with the primary aim of getting straight into BA then you're in the wrong business. It is a very unlikely prospect. It is also, according to a colleague of mine and part-time BA captain, a rather dull career with little if any real flying (he has flown for real, now likes the money from BA, works for us because he enjoys it). If you just want to sit in an office there are cheaper ways of going about it, even if the office is not at 30,000 feet. If you like flying, go fly something smaller, at least for the first part of the career. Go for the money when you have to, as responsibilities develop though life!

Leezy/half mexican

That does sound suspisciously pro-Multiflight. I will admit to being pro-UK training working for an FTO. However I also know about flying in the US, having only ever had an FAA PPL (for 12 years now) and done about 120 hours flying over there. I also have military training in light aircraft (hence I coped with having learnt in the US). I have now been taught to instruct PPL to UK standards, and was astounded. The course I was taught to deliver had far more in common with the thorough, careful, well-standardised and high-quality training given to the British military pilots than to the US PPL. I was never properly briefed in the US, the course was unstructured, the flying environment was too relaxed and informal.

If you want to pass your CPL first time in minimum hours, don't fly all your previous hours in a completely different environment with a much more relaxed approach to flying and especially to flying training and RT procedures that are illegal in the rest of the world. Ask most of the UK CPL schools and it is much more difficult to train students who have done all their time in the US.

If you do learn to fly in the States, make sure you go to one of the more reputable places, there is some very poor, overly-hurried instruction out there both on the FAA and the JAA side. The club I fly for will not let people who trained at certain US schools that shall remain nameless hire unless they have had a minimum of about 10 hours extra training (so around £1300 on the course cost - takes away most of the saving). If they went to the best US schools we can get a good student to hiring standard in about 5 hours or so, but even then some take 10 hours.

That is after only a PPL. How about if they had carried on for another 100 hours of bad habits and lax monitoring? You get what you pay for.

[Alex Whittingham]

If you didn't know the man I could see how you could come to the conclusion that Malcolm Dean was plugging his former employer. Its actually probably closer to the truth to say that he is continuing to recommend the type of course that he designed.

What won't be generally known is that Malcolm came down to the conference on his day off, unpaid, at the request of the organisers and that he has no connection to any FTO whatsoever, least of all Multiflight. I didn't see his presentation but he did tell me beforehand that the main thrust of his advice would be to take advantage of the cheap dollar, train in the states AND ask for a discount on sterling prices that would have been calculated at a different exchange rate. I think that's bound to p*ss off more than a few FTOs.

The question of training in the US has always been a thorny one. For what its worth my opinion is that US training is fine, provided its done properly, and therein lies the rub. Much of the training is done to a price with crappy aircraft and inadequate or non-existent pre-flight briefs. The idea of 'sructured modular' courses like Multiflight's and the one Stapleford runs is that the UK FTO supervise the stateside training so that this doesn't happen. In this I'm not entirely convinced that they are as successful as they would wish.

[Half a Mexican]

“Its actually probably closer to the truth to say that he is continuing to recommend the type of course that he designed.”

This is quite possible.

I may have been a bit quick to jump to conclusions then. But then again it’s only natural to be suspicious in situations like this.
And for a wannabe, a bit of healthy scepticism is by no means a bad thing!

--
HaM

[Alex Whittingham]

Quite so, there are a number of very dodgy individuals around. I hope you decide Malcolm is not one of them!

[Send Clowns]

He seemed fairly straight to me when he spoke to the open forum, where we both answered questions. It does also make sense that he would set up a course on a structure he recommends. However from my experience I would still be far more wary than he is of US training, and not assume to pass easily from there to the UK.

[ESSEX BOY]

The idea of 'sructured modular' courses like Multiflight's and the one Stapleford runs is that the UK FTO supervise the stateside training so that this doesn't happen

Stapleford Flight Centre don't have any stateside training :confused:

Riverside training :\ used to be in connection a couple of years ago ... but i think they saw that no benefit was gained ?

All training is UK based ... and the £49,995 includes Ab:initio to F.ATPL with type rating and 100 hrs line training.

ALL in the UK

not sure about Multiflight ?

EB !

:ok:

[Alex Whittingham]

Oops, sorry. Trust me to pick the one structured modular course that didn't use the US.

[-<M4v3r1ck>-]

Hello,

If any of you are following this thread, many thanks to those who spoke on Saturday...the open forum at the end was a good way to consolidate the day.

Cheers chaps :ok:

[FireFoxDown]

I have to join with M4v3r1ck in thanking everyone who made the show possible - a very enjoyable and informative day! Now, i should know the answer to this, but who was the "main guy"? Seemed like a very nice person ...

[-<M4v3r1ck>-]

Yeah, who was the MC? I think I recognised him/his voice...!? There's a very good chance I'm imagining that though...

Mav :confused:

[stella arrival]

The main guy was Peter Moxham who writes the professional training column in Flyer. Thoroughly nice chap.

[Send Clowns]

Not the only one, Alex. Ours doesn't either.

I was one of them, Maverick, FFD (the only groundschool representative, so relieved there were no groundschol questions!), and it was a pleasure (perhaps a dubious pleasure, being asked to answer unscripted questions with an hour's notice) although not sure how much help I was, not having had decades in the business like the rest. There were some answers I found very useful and enlightening, so very useful overall.

[FireFoxDown]

Ah Send Clowns - would i be right in saying that you feature in your FTO's brochure? :cool: And were you sitting beside someone who looked like an older version of you? (I evidently didnt get enough sleep over the weekend...)...

Peter Moxham, eh? Thats a very interesting and well written column he has! I think you get the feeling you have seen him before because he looks very much like a presenter on UK TV who presents a show with clips and outtakes ...

[Capt. Manuvar]

Send Clowns,
I figured that out a long time ago. My plan/hope is to get the TT into the four digits and get some line experience b4 touching the likes of BA. There just seem to be a lot of wannabes out there who dont seem to know the reality. I was trying to explain the reality to them but maybe i ended up sounding like one of them:hmm: .
BTW i think i met you.:O
Capt. Manuvar

[Send Clowns]

Hahaha, thinking about it Steve (from a friendly rival here at Bournemouth, Profesional Air Training) is not unlike an older version of me, and yes, I think I am in the brochure pretending to give a briefing.

Were you one of those I met, Manuver? Well very pleased to do so, had fun talking to those I cornered. Some very fine chaps/girls at this show, was one of the best I've been to, very promising. Good luck on the path to BA/Virgin/the big boys. The path is not easy, but you seem to have the right idea for it and the job is good when you get there.I'll leave that to you, though, I want to settle down somewhere they'll let me be a training captain (bit old for a high chance of that in the majors), or else in a nice, friendly FTO as an IRI / Aeros instructor, maybe with a little ground instruction thrown in. I love teaching :)

[-<M4v3r1ck>-]

Peter Moxham of TV fame! Of course! Great stuff :ok:

Mav

[Eddie_Crane]

Would anyone be so kind as to let me know if they've taken any notes from the seminars?

If so, I would be very happy to have a copy (.pdf/html/dvi/tex whathaveyou), please PM me.

Thanks all in advance,

C