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hadagutful
19th Jan 2004, 11:51
To all and Sundry.

Heard the Minister (for Aviation and other matters) say on National ABC radio today that prior to NAS the number of TCAS alerts averaged 2 per week and since implementation of NAS it has averaged only one per week.
(I presume he has been advised correctly!)

OK, not much time has elapsed so probably still early days but doesn't that suggest that the scaremongering is a little bit unfounded.

He also did say that there would probably be some fine tuning with NAS which I always expected, that is not to say that the system broadly in its current format can't work.
Let's watch this space and give it a chance.

hadagutful
19th Jan 2004, 19:49
Oh Dear, Mr. Shitsu......................

No not really a wind up and you don't have to bite.......just a reasonably sensible and intelligent reply will do, thanks.

Unfortunately, it appears that vested interests, cynicism and emotion is ruling the NAS debate.
Nevertheless the system is I understand undergoing a review to ensure that air safety is not compromised.

Kaptin M
19th Jan 2004, 20:26
Unfortunately, it appears that vested interests, cynicism and emotion is ruling the NAS debate.Not "vested interests, etc", hadagutful - as Dick Smith wrote,"One thing I have learnt during my 15 years of involvement in Airspace reform is that virtually every change is resisted......I can understand management resisting the change, because they have a perception that there could be higher costs. However, I am amazed that there are a number of vocal airline pilots who come up with every excuse why we shouldn’t have...."



Nevertheless the system is I understand undergoing a review to ensure that air safety is not compromised.So you would therefore concede that under the current (NEW) system, SAFETY IS being compromised.
Interesting indeed!

Kaptin M
20th Jan 2004, 09:35
No comment on your comment, hag?

hadagutful
20th Jan 2004, 19:54
Kaptin M

Look I don't really know if safety is being compromised or not, that is up to the actions of pilots and ATC.

I only heard the Minister say on radio that ATSB has apparently ordered a review. Now I think any new airspace system should be monitered and be subject to review, that is fair and reasonable.
Maybe the review is the result of the two incidents given prominence in the media, I don't know.
But it certainly would be too early I believe, to come out and say that the NAS has compromised air safety.

I haven't heard that bookings on Qantas or Virgin have plummeted due to a lack of safety and I will certainly be flying tomorrow.
As I said earlier, apparently the number of TCAS alerts has dropped in the short time since implementation, wouldn't know why but that is interesting.

Let's see what evolves and don't panic or scarmonger.

druglord
21st Jan 2004, 04:02
is this RA's or TA's?....if there's only 2 TA's a week, i wouldn't be getting my knickers in a knot! ...sounds like a pretty good system.

DirtyPierre
21st Jan 2004, 05:00
Hadagutful,

You and JA are about as well informed as each other, and seemingly have about the same amount of understanding.

TAs - Traffic advisories. A regular occurrence in busy airspaces like the eastern seaboard of OZ.

RAs - Resolution advisory. Not a regular occurrence, and requires ESIR (incident notification).

If we had 2 RAs a week, there would be an investigation into the causes.

TCAS Version 7 was developed because aircraft with high rates of climb/descent were getting false RAs. Ask any Qantas/Virgin driver departing CG for SY or ML about the RAs he would get as he climbed beneath the arriving traffic into BN or CG from the south if he/she was climbing to a level only 1000ft below the traffic. Version 7 fixed this problem.

As usual, JA is mouthing stats without telling the full story, this is lying by omission isn't it? You might be wise to remember the old joke.
Q. How can you tell when a politician is lying?
A. He's got his mouth open.

Per Ardua Ad Astra......########!

Blastoid
21st Jan 2004, 07:41
hadagutful,
I haven't heard that bookings on Qantas or Virgin have plummeted due to a lack of safety and I will certainly be flying tomorrow.
Even if the new system was unsafe (I am not subscribing to this debate here), do you really think QF and DJ would admit to that, only to see their load factor plummet and their figures spiral out of control? They will of course, defend the system to ensure people fly - the livelihood of their business depends on it!

SM4 Pirate
21st Jan 2004, 08:13
Stats stats and damn lies;

The 14 RAs a week that JA seems to be quoting, is total RAs; this includes the pair of aircraft involved normally, 14 reports equals 7 events... How many were where separation was or about to be compromised? We are averaging 7 'real events' per year in CTA; which obviously leads to a significant amount of 'false reports'.

12 per week since November, how many of these have been 'false reports'? If I were a betting man, and I am, the stats are not telling the real safety story here.

Bottle of Rum