JAA ATPL only with books

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

I have an full faa ATPL and I must do the the JAA conversion.
My question is if its possible to pass the JAA ATPL written exams by just buying the oxford/jeppesen books and an actual feed back question bank.

Is it impossible without any groundschool?
If yes, which subjects would be most difficult without any groundschool.

Really need that feedback from you.

[WX Man]

Depends on your background. I suspect with an FAA ATPL the CAA will laugh loudly in your general direction- sorry about that.

My background- PPL/IR, degree in Meterology/Climatology, JAA Air Traffic Controller's licence exams passed (average >90%). You'd think they could at least exempt me an approved course: did they f***. I even had to take the comms exams. I object more to the fact that I had to pay £104 for the priveledge of being theoretically examined on how pilots should talk to Air Traffic Controllers when not 12 months ago I was on the other end of the microphone correcting pilots on *THEIR* RT!!!!

Also think about when you last had the occasion to sit down and study for any considerable period. I'm lucky- I went straight from uni to ATC training. That's a fairly hard graft. So when I came to do the ATPL exams sitting down studying is nothing new.

That being said, there is nothing to stop you doing a distance learning course at a knock down price. However, even considering my advantage in the groundschool I am still doing a residential course (at BCFT), and I can honestly say that it really is worth it. What you gain from the instructors in the classroom being able to impart knowledge directly to you will more or less ensure you get all 14 straight off. Particularly in subjects like PoF, where the questions are really, really abstract. You can have a degree in Aero Eng and still struggle with the PoF exam.

[FlyingForFun]

There are two issues here: are you allowed to study just from books, and is it actually possible to pass the exams by doing so.

I don't know the answer to the first question. I know that there are exemptions under some circumstances, but I don't know what they are. Have a look in LASORS, and if that doesn't help then contact the CAA (or alternatively, any reputable groundschool should know the answer).

As for the second question, my advice would be don't even try it. I really don't think it's possible. The exams are there to catch you out, and it doesn't matter how much knowledge you have, if you haven't had anyone point out the tricks to you, you will fall for them.

A couple of examples: the Jeppesen pack that you use contains two versions of one particular airways chart - one is a genuine chart, albeit quite a few years out of date. The other is produced specifically for the exams. They cover the same area, but they are different - and if you don't realise that (or have someone point it out to you at groundschool), you won't be able to answer the questions which are based on it.

Or there was the Air Law feedback question which I learnt the answer to, and was very pleased when it came up on another feedback paper and I remembered the answer from the previous time. Surprised when I marked the paper and found that I'd got that question wrong. It was only very close examination that I realised that one question was about JAR regulations, the other about ICAO, but that the two questions were otherwise identical.

This is the type of thing you can, IMHO, only find out about on an approved course. Do a distance learning course, attend the brush-up, and learn the tricks of the trade.

Good luck!

FFF
----------------

[fcom]

I was flying the A320 in the UK for 6 yrs on a CAA CPL/IR and had to do all the JAR exams without exception.I aquired the PPSC notes on disk and also most of the OATS study books.The oxford books are essential and with a lot of feedback questions along with the 2 week brush up course at Bristol I scraped passes eventually in all subjects within 7 months.The knowledge and experience you have as a current commercial pilot will take you through 5o% of the exams.

[BillieBob]

Whether or not you can pass the exams without approved training (and the concensus appears to be not) is irrelevant unless you qualify for exemption. To qualify, you must meet all of the experience requirements for the issue of a JAA ATPL(A), you must also have a minimum of 1500 hours as pilot (PIC or Co-pilot) on multi-pilot aeroplanes (or single-pilot aeroplanes operated by two pilots according to operational requirements) and hold a valid multi-pilot type rating for the aeroplane to be used for the ATPL(A) Skill Test.

If you do not meet the experience requirements for the issue of a JAR ATPL(A) (Including the 1500 hours MPA) and wish to take the ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations, you will have to first complete the full 650 hours of approved training

LASORS D1.5 and G1.5 refer.

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

Thanks for the replies.

The thing is that I WILL do 300 hours groundchool in GREECE.
Greece has no experience in JAR-FCL examination and groundschool.
So I have to consider the 300 hours groundschool as not "doing" any groundschool at all.
I don't think the instructors will know the tips and tricks.

I'am going to try to do it by actual feedback question, jeppesen manual and some greek philosophic thinking.

Which subjects do you think will be more difficult?

If somebody has god tips and tricks notes please PM me and I will buy it from you.

Once again thank you for taking your time in answering, perhaps my "stupid questions".

[JohnnyPharm]

I don't think it is allowable just to buy books and feedback and sit the exams.

You must enroll on a fully approved course. This does not mean that you have to sit in on class every day for 6 months. You can of course do it distance learning i.e. they will send you the books and you can study at home at your own pace. However you must officially enroll with an approved school to do this. Just buying the books and sitting the exams is not an option. Full distance learning courses start from around £2,000stg.

[FlyingForFun]

Johnny,

True in most cases... but there are some exemptions, as has already been said.

FFF
---------------

[Send Clowns]

Talking from a point of view as a ground instructor, don't count on it. I have taught people with full FAA ATPL, all appreciated the classroom tuition. Some were fine, going through the course without difficulty but no more easily than other students. Others would happily admit they were less well-prepared than holders of JAA PPLs for the groundschool. Can you not get to the UK, US, Spain or any of the other countries teaching groundschool in English?

Best of luck, it's a tough course very different from the FAA one, but it can be done with hard work and basic understanding of maths.

P.S. Agree about a 300-hour course from inexperienced instructors. The CAA-approved courses are a minimum of 650 hours, typically a little longer, and I sat the course in 2000 when it was all new, even here, and that made life tougher.