bankstown Light Aircraft Lane.

[Matt-YSBK]

I was sitting in the club house on the weekend and was talking to 6 pilots about the light aircraft lane to the north of bankstown.
(from Parramatta to Patonga if you dont know it)

It was interesting that 3 out of the 6 pilots had a deferent idea under the new rules as to what frequency they should be on for this lane. And if a call should be made.

I would love to compile some stats on this ("Its what i do") so i can get a better idea of how safe i am / not in this lane.

Could any local pilots that have a spair second email what frequency they would be on and if they would make a call or not to

[email protected]

When i get the results i will post em here for interest. Perhaps there is no confusion here and my friends and me are simply daft.

[ltaylor]

My understanding is that one of the main aims of the changes of 27 Nov was specifically to stop folks from making broadcasts on the area frequency to announce their arrival in the lane.
I think the idea is that you should be looking out of the window rather than relying on the radio. The rest of us may not be listening to you now anyway, and the folks who don't have radios certainly wont be. As I come down the lane (to BK) I like to listen on the BK tower frequency so I can hear pilots lying about being at Prospect

[Aboveglidepath]

yeah, there is a lot of confusion about broadcasts. Personally, I think the idea of making making high traffic areas CTAFs sounds good. They've got 'em all over the top end - east Kimberley. May be an overkill and preclude pilots from listening for other aircraft approaching PSP from outside the lane, but its just a thought. anyone else?

[Matt-YSBK]

I could understand that reasoning ltaylor if it was consistent.

If one is to look in the ERSA under Sydney special procedures i note that the Air route know as "Victor 1" as not only mandatory reporting requirements but a designated frequency to do it on.

Where you have the BK lane which would carry more traffic and have no such procedure. Granted there is a lot more sky in the lane and the route is uni-directional however it is much easer to see a low flying aircraft in a small space on V1 then perhaps a climbing or descending aircraft in the lane. (my opinion)

A PA32R could climb in the area between the bk control zone and pennant hills through the steps with a 152 doing same in front The PA32 could be doing easy 100Kts vs the 152's 70odd I guess we all lower the nose every 500ft to lookout dont we.

Yes we are correct in the Big Sky Policy. It works well if you do the numbers. Add a good look out and the chance of you hitting someone else is small.

I wonder if that will console the families of the people that get run over by the PA32 that a simple radio call on a assigned frequency. (say the one used by V1) documented by AIP in one of the busiest traffic areas in the country would have saved there lives. "Dont worry the odds were very low they would have hit"

So i guess given this logic the V1 route does not need calls or a frequency. Lets get rid of it. (Perhasps i should go grab my ERSA perhaps they allready have)

For the Record ERSA Valid till March 18th.

FAC S - 342
F) The carriage & use of radio is mandatory. MAke an "All Stations" call joining Victoira 1, Stating Position & intentions. Pilots of opposite direction ACFT shall respond with there position. Broadcast Freq 120.8.

Am i missing something here.

An AIP or Perhasps an addition to the ERSA Entry for YSBK.
Aircraft transiting the Bankstown light aircraft lane and that are radio
equipped shall make a "Traffic Bankstown light aircraft lane" call
approaching Parramatta. Advising Aircraft type position and altitude climbing
to on 120.8 Traffic in the lane should monitor 120.8

Eg
Traffic Bankstown lane. Lance ABC is Parramatta 2000ft on climb 2500ft for
Patonga.

And on the way back.

Traffic Bankstown lane. Lance ABC is Brooklyn Bridge 2500ft on decent 1500ft
South bound.

This is close to what it says in the Sydney Basin visual pilots guide with respect to V1. It also notes in this guide that
"If you receive a reply. Work out the traffic situation between you and
the other aircraft"

All it wouldl cost would be some paper and some printing.

It could save 8 peoples lives in the PA32vs152 situation above.

[On Track]

I think the dedicated frequency for Victor 1 is a good idea.

Broadcasts that I've heard on 120.8 have certainly alerted me to conflicting traffic that I probably wouldn't have spotted until the last moment.

Use of landing lights is also helpful - especially on hazy days.

I think similar procedures should apply to the light aircraft lane, i.e. a dedicated frequency with mandatory broadcasts when entering or crossing.

In the meantime I'll just keep monitoring Sydney Radar while using the lane - at least that way I might get to hear about IFR traffic in potential conflict.

[Tinstaafl]

Since the powers-that-be saw fit to remove a necessary frequency then use one that exists.....SY RADAR, BK North or similar. Alternatively local operators could agree to use 123.45.

If anyone objects, specify it as a requirement or even declare a PAN. The PIC is obligated to take actions to ensure the safety of the flight.

Eventually CASA will get the message... :*

By ignoring industry's considered opinion, CASA risks being sidelined & made irrelevent due to industry proceeding to do things in spite of CASA.

[2B1ASK1]

Matt-YSBK

The general idea is to use the frequency that will give you the best situational awareness, as its a terminal area the VTC should be use for navigation and the frequency stated is 125.8 as it has always been. The new Sydney basin guide also states 125.8 so nothing has changed since NAS if you feel a position call would benefit you then do it, personally I have been using the lane most days for a number of years and have never made a position call I have answered the odd one but the odds of hitting anything are rare and no different since Nov 27th in my view.

Its true that you could fly up someone’s arse but don’t hold your breath you could fly up someone’s arse anywhere, before or after the 27th, just do your bit and have fun flying.

Personally I am a little disappointed that they removed the frequencies from the maps but a little bird has told me they may be putting them back on in a new format either way I can live with it.

Tinnstaffl I think you need to get the message its only parts of the industry that are making a fuss most of us are just getting on with it and CASA are not the people responsible for the frequency changes.
:ok:

[Atlas Shrugged]

I really don't understand what all the confusion is about. What were you doing before they removed the frequency boundaries? It's not that hard really - 124.55 and 125.8 re-transmit anyway. C'mon people, we pilots are supposed to be an intelligent lot so why not use those frequencies that you were using before. They haven't changed, the boundaries haven't moved and the chances are that other aircraft in the area will be doing the same. If you're used to the lane, you should'nt have a problem. Bank runners, traffic guys all still use them and some even make position broadcasts when they feel it's necessary. Common sense is all it takes. If you have genuine safety concerns, and most of us do, take advantage of the added protection of controlled airspace and depart CTA via Richmond/MQD.

Atlas

[On Track]

Atlas, I think the question has arisen only because the powers that be don't want OCTA VFR aircraft broadcasting on ATC frequencies - supposedly in the interests of safety.

But I agree that Sydney Radar is the relevant frequency to monitor unless a special frequency is designated a la Victor 1.

[Duff Man]

A few thoughts
- 124.55 and 125.8 don't always retransmit.
- 125.8 is the preferred frequency north of Parramatta but this isn't indicated on the VTC (stoopid NAS)
- A CTAF arrangement wouldn't be good as there are some critical CTA steps close to the YSSY approaches and ATC need to be able to contact unidentified aircraft should an accidental violation of CTA occur.
- Position broadcasts when you're following the lanes are probably unnecessary but if you're crossing the lanes would be a good idea
- A certain Aussie entrepreneur has been known to castigate those who waffle on 125.8.
- It's no drama to call SY RADAR to ask for traffic or position advisories, whenever you think the safety of your aircraft may be compromised.
- Transponder ON/ALT code 1200 please :)

[On Track]

Duff Man,

I take it you are an ATC-er?

If so, how often do you find aircraft in the lane violating C airspace?

I'm curious because I live in an area east of the lane, where the LL of C is 700, and from time to time I see lighties flying overhead and wonder if they have a clearance or have strayed off course.

Also, do you ever get Victor 1 traffic infringing CTA?

[Wheeler]

Matt,

I reckon infringements of controlled airspace are pretty common from Victor 1, especially where you go past Bondi etc and are warned on the VTC not to hug the coast etc. "I have a friend" caught like this - when you land you get asked to ring a a phone number, where a very polite and helpful controller tells you of your folly. You actually need to be quite a long way out to sea there. My friend had a GPS which recorded his track. He muct have barely poked a wing in there - but definitely was in there all the same. Not sure they would have bothered him had he not just done a Harbour scenic and so had a dedicated transponder code. I have also sat next to quite a few of who seem to think the 500 ft thingy is +-200 or so.

The lane is a bit of a worry - and if a CTAF is still justified in Victor 1, it is difficult to see why not in the lane - but then the thinking on whether it is necessar to use the radio has changed somewhat eh? See and avoid is the name of the game now - but whether that is sensible in those situations will be interesting, but hopefully not tragic. Certainly having had a Metro blast past me in a Cutlass from behind without a so much as 'hello' is pretty exciting stuff. I wonder if he/she saw me.... Still I imagine they were IFR with RAS, TCAS and the works and so it is unlikely they did not know I was there(?)

Having said all of that what about the training area as well?

[OpsNormal]

I'm playing devil advocate here, but here goes...

No one has even mentioned the dozen or so ALA's that are located within both the vertical and horizontal confines of the lanes (both northward and southbound) as well. So, for part of the time should you guys not at least be listening on multicom?

If not then what? If so, why aren't you? Have you taught the right things to your students, and conversly have your students actually learned anything from you WRT NAS?

[Scion]

OPSnormal,

Where are the dozen or so ala's in the north south lane,

I would love to find out where they are as Sydney is woefully short of landing strips especially when Hoxton Park goes to house building.

[OpsNormal]

Scion, I was deliberately vague about their location for a good reason. For the most part you'll need floats and another rating in your logbook to use them.... if that helps... ;)

Have a good one and good luck finding somewhere to park.

Ops. ;)

[sancho]

Water ALA's are at Cottage Point Inn, Bobbin Head, The Boat Shed Restaraunt near Berowra, and Peats Bite. The rest are in Pittwater and Gosford or Newcastle and so outside the lanes.

Look up the Phone Book, Gregorys or UBD to find where these places are. They are all next to waterside restaraunts by the way.

Dont know of any land ALA's that are state secrets.

Have a nice day everyone!

[Duff Man]

On Track,
Yes. Flight Safety Australia mag published some plots of VCAs (PDF article) (http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/fsa/download/01nov/22-26.pdf). Lots around that 700ft step and a few around the coast in V1. Those tracking coastal west of V1 without a clearance are especially noticed when rwy 25 is being used for arrivals... in which case we get a breakdown of separation incident with aircraft on final approach. Same goes for the 700ft step vv 16L/R. You may see traffic spotters over that area who have a clearance, however.

Wheeler,
I can see the need for MBZ procedures in V1 moreso than the LOE by the nature of the traffic, ie, nose-to-nose at same altitude. On the IFR RAS point, SY Radar doesn't always get a chance to pass VFR traffic... it's all workload permitting.

[On Track]

Duff Man,

Thanks for that link.

(Normally that magazine is sent to me, so I don't know how I missed that article)

It's interesting that none of the offenders flew less frequently than once a month.

I would have thought it more likely for infringements to be committed by pilots who fly once in a blue moon.

[Steve Hungerford]

Talking about infringements of the CLL 700 step just north of YSSY and east of the lane, a while back now i was doing aeros just north east of WAD and monitoring 124.55 (which happened to be paired to 125.8) and i heard some light humour...an aircraft was bumbling its way towards LRF who had started heading east just after parramatta and was carving the 700' step up, the controller repeatedly told him that he was infringing syd airspace etc etc and after about 2 minutes of this he requested clearance for hbr orbits and he was told that clearance wouldnt be available due to his recent escapades, hahahaha (understandably the control had other things to do!) it was a while back and i cant remember the aircraft, it did have a dodgy radio tho. the funny thing (nearly made me fall out of a loop ;) ) he got to LRF and requested clearance for orbits!! its a worry isnt it.

but back on topic of the BK lane.....its really pretty much already come out so far in discussion but yeh monitor 125.8 in lane and stick to the right handside as shown on the VTC and lookout :8 and no radio calls should be required unless operationally required ;) for safety.....so like i typically if conducting orbits/airwork over an area in close proximity to the lane i might slip in a quick call on 125.8

cheers guys,

[ltaylor]

Matt-YSBK

You asked if any pilots could spare a second to e-mail you a reply to your question, and when I did, you tell me I suffer from inconsistent reasoning. I wasn't doing any reasoning. I was just telling you the current situation.

If you had asked about V1, I'd have said 120.8 If you'd asked for an argument about using/not using calls, I might have given you one. As it is, you asked about the Bankstown LOE, and I just responded with what I thought was the current situation.

I don't think you can rely on the radio to give you the story because many of the people using the lane will not be making calls. This was true even before the 27th of Nov.

I think the writer who said something about what do ATC broadcast on if they find you doing a VCA or if there is some other problem (eg transponder left on a discreet code) has a valid point. How will they call?

[Matt-YSBK]

Sorry Itaylor,

I did not mean to offend. It was just making a point it was not directed at you and I of cause value your feedback. I have had lots of feedback to the email address I left for comment. To avoid any misunderstanding the following rant is not directed at you.

The sad part is there are parts of the NAS that i think are of great benefit however there are parts that i think don’t make sense.
I can understand there to be a need to reduce frequency congestion I just came back from a trip up north and while passing overhead Port Macquarie MBZ i was a audio witness to the most ridicules position reports of all time. There were around 4 fixed wing and 1 rotor operating and it would have been imposable to get any sort of broadcast out between these 5 local boys. The Local Chopper pilot if you are reading this. Mate you should have been a radio talk back host. I was on the MBZ frequency for about 10 minutes and you made 23 position calls most of them were telling people that you could see them.

My old instructor always says you are not going to hit what you can see. (usually true unless its the ground)


I think reducing area frequency congestion should not be done by confusing pilots or telling them just to shut up or they will be reprimanded but rather training them to give accurate appropriate radio calls at appropriate times and if need be providing a discrete frequency to do it. My pet hate is people that give position reports and don’t tell the altitude This is a TOTAL waste of time.

There is no need to pay a controller to listen to VFR aircraft they need desecrate frequencies where appropriate.

There is no need to think that VFR Pilots will not lookout the window if they are hearing broadcasts or fixate on one spot We need to get more credit that that for training and sense.