U.K. flight training or EFT??

[kula]

Hi

I am currently considering where to go in the US to do a JAA PPL.

I have tried searching for U.K. flight training on here but couldn't find anything (due to UK being too small a search criteria for the search engine!). So if anyone has been to this school (either in Long Beach or Lancaster) and has any comments on the people, training, housing etc then please reply or pm me. From the website it looks like they can issue both the approved JAA PPL license plus the FAA issued JAA PPL compliant license for a fairly reasonable price.
(Also which school is better Long Beach or Lancaster county??)

They also provide a Professional Pilot ab-initio programme which sounds quite interesting -- full ATPL with 500 hrs multi time experience included?? is this really true? has anyone actually been through this course and come out the other end with an unfrozen ATPL including 500 hrs multi time?

The other school I am considering is EFT. I have read some stuff on here about them and get the impression that the training and people are good but their accomodation is alledgedly sometimes not so good! Any comments from anyone who had been their recently would be appreciated. I think they run a CAA issued JAA PPL course, is this correct?
They also seem to do a similar professional ab initio programme with the 500 hrs multi time coming from instructing, so any comments from anyone currently or previously taking this course would be good. Is the instructing position guaranteed?? How quickly can you build the multi time when apparently there are not too many piper senecas available??

Both schools seem very professional and from what i've read the people working there know their stuff, so it will be a difficult decision either way.

Thanks for you time.

[BillieBob]

Don't be fooled by UKFT's misleading marketing. They are not approved to provide training for the JAA PPL. What you will get from UKFT is a FAA PPL, just the same as at any other US flight school. If you want to train for a JAA licence, you must go to a school approved by the JAA. In the US, the approved schools are:

Atlantic Flight Training - Sanford, FL
Comed Flight Training - Ramona, CA
European Flight Training - Fort Pierce, FL
International Flight Training Academy - Stuart, FL
Naples Air Center - Naples, FL
Cabair (Orlando Flight Training) - Kissimmee, FL

There is one other but we're not allowed to mention it on this Forum because the only comments it ever gets are negative.

[kula]

Ok Billie thanks for the info.

So just to get this straight according to their website UKft will provide training for an FAA PPL and a JAA compliant PPL which will be issued be the FAA? Correct?

So what are the implications (or restrictions) with getting this JAA compliant ppl, particularly if you want to go on eventually to getting a CAA issued ATPL?
What difference will it make in the long run? At some point will you have to convert this JAA compiant one to a CAA issued JAA? How much would that cost?

Presumably if you were looking to get an FAA CPL/IR and instruct in the states then you may aswell get the FAA JAA ppl anyway?

[FlyingForFun]

There is no such thing as a "JAA compiant PPL". A PPL is either a JAA one or it isn't.

I would imagine that, if you pushed them, they'd tell you that it is "compliant" only in as much as it can be converted to a JAA PPL. But that's true of just about any PPL which you can get anywhere in the world.

If you want to get an FAA CPL/IR then there's no harm in getting an FAA PPL to start with, that's correct. Personally, though, I wouldn't want to use a school which published misleading information - who knows what other areas they are going to mislead you in? There are hundreds, if not thousands, of good, honest schools in the US which can train you for an FAA PPL if that's what you want to do (although admitedly only a small number of those can issue you with the Visa which you need to be able to train in the US legally).

FFF
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[kula]

Hang on a minute, now I'm confused.
The following is direct from the ukft website. Notice the line which states

"CAA Licence APPLICATION FEE "

"Obtain both the JAR Compliant and JAA PPL - no extra course cost."


JAR Compliant 45 hour PPL COURSE

$5250



THIS PACKAGE INCLUDES:

45 HOURS TRAINING ON CESSNA 152
23 HOURS DUAL (Includes 1.5 hours for Flight Test)
22 HOURS SOLO
15 HOURS GROUND INSTRUCTION
USE OF VIDEO BASED PPL TUTORIAL
JAR APPROVED GROUND EXAMINATIONS
VHF RT PRACTICAL EXAMINATION
SKILL TEST FEE
MEDICAL FEE
NEW BOOKS & EQUIPMENT TO KEEP
NIGHT PRIVILEGES
CAA Licence APPLICATION FEE
HEADSET ON LOAN
$50 VOUCHER TOWARDS THE PILOT SHOP
ACCOMMODATION UNTIL COMPLETION (Flying min 2 Hours dual/day)
PHILADELPHIA AIRPORT PICKUP AND RETURN
AIRCRAFT INSURANCE DEDUCTIBLE COVERAGE (4 weeks)

Upgrade to:
New Cessna SkyHawk - Add $44/hr
Piper Warrior - Add $20/hr
Piper Archer - Add $36/hr

"Professional, focused and affordable flight training in a friendly atmosphere."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JAR Compliant PPL is recognized in the UK as well as 186 International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) countries.
Obtain both the JAR Compliant and JAA PPL - no extra course cost.
No conversions required on your return to the UK, a JAA Member State or ICAO contracting state unless otherwise stated in the package.
Fully inclusive JAR Compliant PPL packages- one price with no hidden costs- training up to 50 -55 hours.
Radio Telephony practical exam on site.
JAR Compliant Licence issued immediately upon passing your final flight test.
FREE revalidations and renewals on your JAR Compliant PPL, per required minimums, exclusively to UKFT qualified pilots





So if this isn't a JAA license then what is it??? Someone please explain!

[Julian]

You are coming away with an FAA PPL. As FFF says, there is no such thing as a JAA compliant PPL, what it actually is a ICAO licence through which you can apply for a reciprical licence through a another member state. I.e. get your FAA PPL, come over to the UK and apply for a JAA PPL, this licence will ride on the back of your FAA one - therefore you need to keep your FAA current to use your JAA licence so if it ever lapses your JAA one also becomes invalid. It also means you now require 2 sets of medicals, etc.

This remains the case until you move past the PPL stage, your next licence issue will become a licence in its own right (i.e. CPL) and therefore you can do whatever you want with your FAA PPL and still be able to fly on your JAA CPL as it is not longer piggy backing your FAA issued one.

Julian.

[BillieBob]

So if this isn't a JAA license then what is it??? Someone please explain! It is an FAA PPL which, with the JAA ground exams, medical and skill test, allows you to apply for a JAA PPL provided that you meet the experience requirements for the issue of a JAA PPL or have more than 100 hours total time. Presumably, the extra 5 hours in this package over that required for the FAA PPL are there to achieve the JAA minima. You could achieve exactly the same effect by doing a FAA PPL at any other flight school, making sure that you achieved JAA minima in the process and arranging to do the exams and skill test at an approved organisation or in the UK, along with the medical. UKFT are simply charging a premium price to arrange for all of the extras you require for issue of a JAA PPL, you would have to research whether you could do it yourself more cheaply.

Bear in mind that, contrary to what Julian wrote, you can fly a UK registered aeroplane (day/VFR) on a FAA PPL without applying for a reciprocal licence (in fact, no such thing exists). There are a couple of guys in my local club who are in exactly that position. The FAA (or any other ICAO) PPL also qualifies you for entry onto a JAA modular CPL course, so there is actually no good reason to get a JAA PPL if you intend to progress to a CPL.

If, however, you decide that you want a JAA PPL, you need to ask yourself whether you should trust an organisation that dispalys such misleading twaddle on its website. They are neither JAA approved, nor 'Recognised by the CAA' (whatever that means). I suggest you would be better off at a JAA approved training organisation or a Registered Facility within the JAA.

[FlyingForFun]

BillieBob,You can fly a UK registered aeroplane (day/VFR) on a FAA PPL without applying for a reciprocal licenceYes, that's true. Only in the UK, though - you can't take a British aircraft into France for the day without getting a JAR license first. And the daytime only restriction may be an issue for anyone wanting to get their night qualification prior to starting the CPL.

Apart from that, though, I agree with your post - especially the last paragraph, which is exactly what I said a few posts ago, but probably put more clearly.

FFF
-------------

[Time to Fly]

FREE revalidations and renewals on your JAR Compliant PPL, per required minimums, exclusively to UKFT qualified pilots

That one makes me laugh, since an FAA Licence does not expire or need to be revalidated. (Just need a flight review with an instructor and then make sure you have 3 takeoffs and landings in 90 days.) :rolleyes:

TTF

[JohnnyPharm]

UKFT used to have JAA approval, don't know if they still have. WHen I was looking for my PPL yhe JAA one was still available, but the sales rep tried to push the JAA compliant one on me.

The UKFT JAA PPL is a FAA (ICAO) PPL with the RT EXAM Tagged on I think.

[clamb]

I did my PPL with them. I asked them about the JAR Complaint PPL. They did inform me that it was a FAA PPL with UK RT, Aviation Law and ground school to prepare you to fly here.

I did not bother with the JAA PPL as I did not see any advantage of getting it. I checked with the CAA and they informed me that I can fly G reg aircraft in the UK and overseas. I can also fly at night if my foreign licence allows me to do so.

CAA website:
http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/faq.asp?faqid=208

A licence issued by any other ICAO Contracting State (including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the particular case give direction to the contrary. However, Article 21 (4) (a) states that the holder of such a licence cannot:

1) Act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or

2) In the case of a pilot’s licence, act as a pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.

This one is from Bristol Ground School where I plan to take ATPL writtens:
http://www.bristol.gs/abinitio.htm

"Whether you decide to organise your own modular training or work through one of the structured modular course providers your first step is to get a Private Pilot’s Licence (PPL) issued to ICAO standards. Nearly all PPL's meet these standards, it doesn't matter whether you hold an FAA licence, an Indian PPL or a JAA PPL. One of the very few licenses that does not meet ICAO standards is the new British National PPL (NPPL)."

[Gazeem]

I got a pucker JAA PPL from them in April 2001, don't know what has changed since then, also trained at EFT who are very good.

[BillieBob]

The difference is that in 2001 UKFT were approved by the CAA to train for the JAA PPL, now they are not. Only the parties involved know why they are not but I would guess that UKFT thought they could con gullible wannabees with their 'Compliant PPL' rubbish without the need to pay the costs of approval. Now that people are getting wise to it, don't be surprised to see UKFT applying for approval again.

There are plenty of options in the USA and elsewhere to train for a JAA PPL at a properly approved school, and even more options to train for a non-JAA PPL which, as clamb correctly points out, can be used freely by day in UK registered aeroplanes, and not limited to UK airspace.

[FlyUK]

I have a JAR PPL from EFT. If you want any info PM me.

Expedite. :ok:

[Julian]

Thanks FFF saved me saying that :o)

Billiebob, yes I am aware of the rules regarding flying on an FAA licence but was answering in context of Kulas original statement in that he wanted a JAA PPL at the end of it. In which case he can come back to the UK and apply for a JAA one on his return, just as we are able to pop down to an FSDO in the US and get an FAA PPL.

Julian.

[buzzc152]

Kula

There are several posts on this forum regarding both EFT & UKFT. Have another search around.

[kula]

Thanks for all the replies on this topic, i am definitely clearer now.

I'm not sure that I definitely want a CAA issued JAA PPL, in fact the JAA compliant FAA issued PPL may in fact be more useful as I would probably be hour building in the US (although I am considering NZ or OZ for this also, anyone know what license is best to get so i can hour build there?? FAA OR JAA??)

Both schools EFT and UKft look quite good to me (even if their marketing on websites is not absolutely clear), from what I've read the instruction is good at both schools.

I am quite interested in both their professional airline courses, therefore I will go for the ppl based on whether I may want to join those professional courses at a later date, so that I can get a good feel for the place whilst doing the ppl.
Anyone know whether it is a good or bad thing to have done all your training at one school? I'm assuming this would be considered good?

The Ukft couse includes 500hrs multi time, which seems very good to me, as I haven't found any other school offering that many hours guranteed multi time. I know that EFT offers an instructor position in which you can build this multi time but it isn't clear how long you would take to do this.

I think I'm right in thinking that a full unfrozen 1500 hrs ATPL must have included 500 hrs multi?? If so then ukft looks good to me. Anyone been on this course?

[FlyingForFun]

I think I'm right in thinking that a full unfrozen 1500 hrs ATPL must have included 500 hrs multiThe requirement is for 500 hrs multi-pilot time, not multi-engine time! However, multi-engine time is undoubtedly useful in getting you the multi-pilot job.

FFF
-----------

[Lightning_Boy]

Hey Guys,

What about the PPL(H) training at UKFT, got the just about the JAA being a piggy back off the FAA but what is the actual training like???

Many Thanks

LB

[hekokimushi]

silly question really,

JAR-PPL is that the same as JAA compliant PPL?

or the training provided would be JAA-PPL. Currently training at a local air club

regards,

nelson

[Lightning_Boy]

hekokimushi, I've PM'd you with details on UKFT,

Went there in feb, done it, bought the t-shirt


LB
:ok:

[rhys32]

UKFT.
I would not go near this guy (AJ) for all the teat in China. All they do is get you hire a plane from Rainbow and organise a local instructor (Who was excellant). I have just returned from doing half his 50 hour course.

AJ is an approved JAA ground and flight examiner.

[2close]

therefore you need to keep your FAA current to use your JAA licence so if it ever lapses your JAA one also becomes invalid

Julian,

Are you sure this is correct? I was told excatly that many moons ago when I got my FAA PPL but I understand that it is no longer the case - once you have your JAA PPL, that's it, you only need to keep the JAA licence current.

If I'm wrong I'd be grateful if you could point out where it is laid out.

2close

PS. Both are current, honest, guv!

[Farrell]

Well, I'm off to EFT for the month of March and so if you stick around until I get back at the beginning of April.....I'll write a big, looonnnnng post and tell you all about it!

Wayne

[Flyer2005]

Hi

For those of you people looking to do your training for a JAA PPL (A). I recently completed my JAA PPL (A) training with Orlando Flight Training, instructors were professional, and when they say they will get you to work through a PPL course in three weeks they mean it. As for the accomodation, it could have been a lot better, and the rushed nature of the course is not for everyone...but then again i have walked away with a PPL in three weeks, had loads of fun there and the conditions are perfect.

Hope that helps.

Flyer2005

p.s. I was actually going to learn to fly with UKFT (AJ), but something did not seem right about the way he was approaching the training...got some negative feedback from others who have flown with UKFT too...

[clamb]

I did my PPL with them and I enjoyed my training there. AJ was upfront with me told me that the PPL will be a FAA PPL with the UK RT Licence.

Here is a letter that might be of interest to future PPL pilots:

****************************************************
The privileges of an FAA PPL (as an ICAO licence) may be exercised in UK registered aircraft for private purposes only but flying in controlled airspace under IFR is prohibited. The UK Air Navigation Order therefore does not prevent you exercising the privileges of an FAA licence, night or instrument rating, outside controlled airspace. The ANO does not place any territorial activity on exercising these privileges since your FAA licence is deemed to be valid in UK registered aircraft, so it does not constrain you to UK airspace. It is possible that a State may be able to exclude you from their airspace but this is unlikely and, indeed, DGAC France has indicated that it is acceptable to fly in that State with an FAA licence valid on UK-registered aircraft. Your local flying club is therefore incorrect in that the privileges of an FAA PPL are day flying within the UK only.There is little argument that an FAA PPL is cheaper and easier to obtain
andmaintain than the JAR-FCL PPL. It is an ICAO licence and is thereforeacceptable as the entry point into the JAA training system (modular route)at CPL or ATPL level.

I hope this information is useful. Obviously we cannot, as the
regulator, make recommendations or comments about individual training organisations, only that if they have received approval they meet the UK standards required.

Regards

Mike Dobson
****************************************************

[rhys32]

Please accept my sincere apologies for my comments. This is probably not the forum for a personnel dispute between AJ and myself. Anyone wishing consider flight training with UKFT should contact them direct.

[Julian]

Hi 2Close,

Unless there has been a major change then I believe this still to be the case.

A couple of friends and myself did it the other way round (Got JAA PPL then applied for FAA on basis of), therefore our licences were restricted by our JAA licence and the FAA licence was in fact endorse which this. I.e. If you held a full FAA PPL then you are entitled to fly at night, however my friends has not done the JAA Night Rating as it was then and could there not fly at night, I had one so could. Therefore as everything is dependant/restricted by your 'base' licence you had to keep it current to keep your other current - NB: In the case of FAA based on JAA licence you still need to undertake a BFR even if JAA is current!

Since then I have added an FAA IR to the FAA PPL and finally went the whole hog and did the SE & ME Commercials - this means I can now throw my JAA licence in the bin if I want and my FAA licence is valid as it is now a stand alone licence.

Worth noting that despite what some flight schools will tell you, if you hold an ICAO PPL then you do not need to take the full FAA PPL course if you want to add an ME, IR or go for the CPL.

[vinil]

I did my PPL with them and I fly regulary from Long Beach. UKFT has been fair with me and I didn't have any problem dealing with AJ.