Coward V. Hero......whats your call?

[squire]

Iraq war's accidental coward

13.01.2004
By ANDREW GUMBEL IN LOS ANGELES
If Jessica Lynch, the fresh-faced West Virginia teenager turned international media icon, could be described as the accidental hero of the Iraq war, then Georg-Andreas Pogany is most certainly the accidental coward.

Like Private Lynch, who became an international celebrity largely through the manipulation of the Pentagon's propaganda machine rather than anything she did or did not do on the battlefield, Staff Sergeant Pogany, hired as a translator and interrogator with United States Special Forces, did nothing to seek out his poster-child status and almost certainly does not deserve the notoriety that has come his way.

Unlike Lynch, though, he has no million-dollar book deals or exclusive television interviews lined up. Instead, he is back at his home base in Fort Carson, Colorado, treated as a pariah by his fellow soldiers and former colleagues in the Green Berets, his legal status in limbo and his reputation in tatters.

His story, on the surface, seems unremarkable.

Last September, after just two days on active duty in Iraq, he caught sight of the mangled body of a dead Iraqi soldier inside a white body bag. The body was ripped almost in two, with a large hole and strips of ripped flesh where the man's chest should have been.

Although a gun battle was in progress - he was stationed in the tense city of Samarra, within the so-called "Sunni Triangle" of central Iraq - Pogany was not involved in the combat. Initially, he pushed the image of the dead Iraqi to the back of his mind and continued puffing on a cigarette.

But a few hours later the image returned and began to haunt him. He started shaking and vomiting and could not sleep. By the next morning, he thought he might be having a nervous breakdown.

One might conclude that this was a relatively routine case of combat stress. That was the opinion of an Army chaplain Pogany consulted, and also that of an Army psychologist who suggested he transfer to other, less stressful duties until the panic attack subsided. His, they concluded, was a normal reaction to the brutality of war.

But Pogany's misfortune was to have an unsympathetic commanding officer, whose first reaction was to tell him to "get your head out of your ass". It only deteriorated from there.

In short order, Pogany was stripped of his weapons and sent home to face a charge of cowardice before a court martial - a very serious, and very rarely prosecuted, offence punishable by death.

According to an account Pogany gave to the Denver Post newspaper, he had begun to implement the Army psychologist's advice and was feeling much better when his commanding officer branded him a coward. In front of a group of lower-ranking soldiers, the commander told him "what a **** bag I am and what a ******* coward I am".

Soon Pogany was being vilified in the US media. One television station put his picture alongside Lynch's in a split-screen montage. Lynch's image was emblazoned with the word "hero", while his carried the tag "coward".

On his return to the US, he was frisked, examined at an Army hospital and deemed fit for duty.

His expectation at that point was to be returned to active duty - something he would not have opposed.

"The soldier should be returned to duty with no change in duty status," the hospital psychologist reported.

But within a week he was instead slapped with the cowardice charge and put on humiliating cleaning duties at Fort Carson.

His legal status has steadily improved since then. The cowardice charge was dropped and replaced with an formal accusation of "dereliction of duty" - which carries a possible six-month sentence in a military prison.

In mid-December, that charge, too, was dropped - effectively, an admission by the military authorities that there was no case against him in the first place.

But Pogany's nightmare is far from over.

His commanders could still try him on a non-judicial charge of dereliction of duty, which could lead to confinement, docked pay and rank, and a less than honourable discharge. Or they could opt to revive the court martial charges.

The danger, especially, in the former case, is that the officer bringing the charges would also be presiding over the trial, making it almost impossible for him to clear his name.

The third option is that the case would be dropped altogether, but even in that best of scenarios, Pogany's reputation would be almost impossible to salvage.

"Some might say he has received national notoriety," his lawyer, Richard Travis, said. "How do you fix that? How do you reinstate your integrity?"

- INDEPENDENT

[S76Heavy]

Sounds to me that he has more integrity than his CO. The guy is not a combat soldier, was not hired to do combat possibly not even trained for combat, and displays very human behaviour that combat training is supposed to suppress.

While it may not look the part in the media's and Pentagon's quest for heroes, he displayed simple humanity and a side of the war that the glorious leaders rather not discuss. War is hell, it kills, maims and mentally affects those who become involved. Some fare better than other and this guy probably should not have found himself in that position. But then the US Army is to blame for putting him there, not the guy who is merely who he is.
He should get a medical dismissal.

Fortunately a society needs a wide variety of personalities, it needs more than blood and guts to function.
It is sad that he is now ostracized by a society that for the largest part consists of armchair heroes..

[cyrus]

We are fortunate to live in a long period of relative peace and, unfortunately, that means few of us know how we would react if faced with the horrors of war in close-up. I suggest for that reason alone we should try to understand the different reactions of both 'heroes' and 'cowards' before pouring scorn on the latter.

[Woff1965]

I thought treatment like this stopped after WW1.

This guy's commanding officer obviously believes the best approach in cases like this is the one adopted by George Patton.

[West Coast]

Sorry but I have no sympathy for him. He made a decision to join the military, he was not drafted, he was not "hired". How many others in all the different services have seen violence and what it can do to a human body yet still complete their mission? I have seen the body of a friend shredded in a helo crash. He was unrecognizable as the man I drank beer with only a few days before. I have also seen bodies disfigured by combat in GWI and in Somalia. The vision will stick with me, but I had a job to complete. The CO was harsh, but bear in mind this was a combat zone. He has more to worry about than a lone soldier who can't carry his weight. I know many of you types love taking shots at the US military. I'm sure you would think different if this was a Brit army thing.
If nothing else he should have carried his weight for his buddies next to him. When it comes down to it, that's why you fight.

[soddim]

If nothing else he should have carried his weight for his buddies next to him. When it comes down to it, that's why you fight.

I'm not sure that is why we fight. I prefer to believe that we fight for the wider cause and in our culture that includes compassion and understanding. Just because we're in the military we don't need to lose those attributes.

[squire]

At least 21 United States troops have committed suicide in Iraq, a growing toll that represents one in seven of American "non-hostile" deaths since the war began last March, the Pentagon's top health official said today.

"Fighting this kind of war is clearly going to be stressful for some people," assistant defence secretary for health affairs William Winkenwerder told reporters in an interview.

"There have been about 21 confirmed suicides during the past year associated with Operation Iraqi Freedom," Winkenwerder said, adding that 18 were Army troops and three others were in the navy and marine corps.

The suicide toll is probably higher than 21, he added, because some "pending" non-hostile deaths are being investigated.

[West Coast]

Mike
A subtle but important difference at least to me, its former Marine not ex Marine.
I am not without pity for this guy but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is not an old fashioned war where the front lines are defined. Every soldier is on the front line from the time he or she steps foot in the country. There is no such thing in Iraq as being a REMF(rear echelon mo fo). All soldiers are combat soldiers, no crying I'm only an interpreter when the rounds are coming down range. When the firefight is in your backyard and well away from your combat arms specialists you still have a firefight in your backyard that has to be fought. It may be fought by cooks, supply types, admin pukes and yes even interpreters. They are all afforded basic combat training along with continuing education in infantry basics.
Like I said, where do you draw the line? What happens when your doctors are to horrified to work on patients with severe trauma. What if the beans, bullets and band-aids are not delivered because the supply guys don't want to take a chance on having the convoy attacked enroute. the list goes on. There are combat arms specialists for sure but that doesn't somehow make others specialties non combatants.
This guy caught a glimpse of something no one likes to see, death. He didn't participate in the battle that caused it. He didn't have to look at another human in the sights of his weapon. He wasn't part of apocalyptic battle that shatters men. I accept that differing tolerance levels exist but this isn't the boy scouts. He as an interpreter may be a minor cog in the overall mechanism, but how many parts can a machine shed and still function? As I understand, interpreters are in short supply in the US military these days. Perhaps his performing his duties might have saved some others from becoming mutilated like the body he saw.
I flew air ambulance for awhile after seperating from the Marines. Flying dying kids was incredibly tough. Rather than shrink from my duty, I along with everyone else picked up the pace and gave just a bit more. I promise you I am no hero, I am no coward. I just overcame and completed my mission, just as this guy should have.

Soddim
Perhaps I should edit to read the reason we continue to fight is for your buddies to your left and right. When the battle erupts your not thinking about lofty ideals, your thinking about not letting your buds down and living to see another day.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Wow.
West Coast. Fantastic. You can do it. Not everyone can.
We spend quite a lot of time & money on aptitude testing, especially for aircrew who are expensive to train. We need to know if they can do the job before they do the job.
This guy could not hack the situation he was in. Simple. It happens. You can't train for that, so why hang him out to dry?

Nobody died from his actions - I am sure there a high percentage of interpreters out there that have never entered a combat zone with SF. Is there a big transfer from US Marines to Interpreter? Probably not.
Different people, different jobs. Nobody knows how they will be in the heat of battle - they just hope they can hack it and get through. This poor s0d didn't.

[cyrus]

A great deal of success in war is due to leadership and I doubt that the style displayed by this subject's leaders would win many battles.

WC is able to focus on specific narrow objectives in combat and that is great protection from stress but what happens later when the images return and the fighting is revisited in the memory?

I suggest that if the marines have the sort of leaders we read about here then it is not surprising they are looking for a few good men.

[West Coast]

Cyrus
You know nothing of the Marines, so your final stab is only meant to raise tension.
Post combat stress is real, I don't doubt that. I also know at that you cannot send everyone who doesn't have the stomach for war back to the rear. There are casualties of war, be it direct action or years down the road. However as long as thier is going to be war, there has to be people to fight it. You don't see a body and get a free pass back.

MCH
"Nobody died from his actions" How can you be sure, you can't to answer the question. His CO wanted him back to work in a hurry, perhaps he was the only translator available. Green Berets usually have them within their own ranks and don't have to borrow from other units so that says something in of itself. What if he could have translated some intel, soothed over some locals, or otherwise did his job to translate. Not everyone is the superhero and flies the fighters but everone has a job that must be completed.
What if one of the aircrew you train simply turned around and said I'm not going into that LZ because I know there is a battle there? Lives are probably depending on his completing his mission. It may be easy to see how a failure of a tank driver, fighter pilot or infantry type can affect the battlefield in a negative way. It is harder to see how a non combat arms soldier fights his war but understand he does still fight.

[S76Heavy]

I can only see a selection problem that finally showed in country. WC, I don't believe you want somebody with you "in the frontline" as you put it, who is not capable of doing his job for whatever the reason. This guy lost it, send him back. He's no use in the lines, but there is also no need to go after him in a which hunt. He simply did not fit the profile and you cannot blame him for ending up in Iraq. Others failed to spot it.

And there is no telling whether it was worse for him because he did not end up in a fight himself or in spite of it. Chances are, had he shot somebody in self defense, he might have taken a different view, maybe not.
Who are you to judge a man's character for being unfit for a very specific job? I would make a very lousy subdriver and probably suffer from claustrophobia, does that mean I am a worthless and weak character? Not that I care very much..

[West Coast]

S76
I appreciate what you say but remember this guy didn't see combat, he saw a dead body.
How many genuine war heros or even guys who simply carried their weight liked seeing dead bodies? I imagine most were revulsed the first time they saw one and wanted to go home but sucked it up and continued. Let me repeat it, this guy saw nothing worse than might have happened in a bad car accident, I believe it a convenient excuse to get out of doing his job.

How many more of his fellow soldiers might have died because he didn't do his job? Neither one of us has the answer but it is quite possible some did.

[Woff1965]

Post Traumatic Stress can hit people in strange ways.

Several years ago I had a client who served in Northern Ireland with the British Army. He saw lots of friends and colleagues killed and maimed by the IRA. On one occasion he had to pick up pieces of a friend he had joined up with who was killed by a IRA culvert bomb - there was not much left.

He did not suffer from PTSD from these events. What triggered his PTSD was being a witness to a RTA near a VCP in Londonderry, a middle aged man collided with a HGV lorry practically decapiting himself. My client told me that after that he had nightmares and flashbacks about it all the time. In the end he was in such a poor mental state he was invalided out of the army. He had attempted suicide on several occasions before and after discharge and was under the care of a psychiatrist.

PTSD can be triggered by almost anything, there is often no indication that someone is likely to be vulnerable to it until it happens. The normal treatment in the British Army is to get the soldier back to his unit as soon as possible so his comrades can support him. Standing him up in front of lower ranking troops and accusing him of cowardice is going to do no one any favours. It only serves to undermine discipline and discourages soldiers from seeking help (possibly with tragic consequences).

Given how macho most soldiers are I think he was bloody brave to stand up and ask for help in the first place.

If I was this guy I would hire myself a sharp lawyer and sue the US Army. They had a duty of care to this guy to provide him with appropriate medical care and to treat him with a modicum of respect. IMHO they did neither.

Too many people forget a mental illness is just as real as a broken arm, it just doesn't show up on a X-ray.

[X-QUORK]

Woff1965,

I agree with your last post whole-heartedly. In the British Army we were trained how to deal with what were termed Battle Shock casualties. As I remember it, the casualty was to be given light duties which took them away from the thick of things for a short period - before being repatriated with their own unit as soon as possible afterwards. A stepped re-introduction back into combat operations.

WC,

I admit that the above process is easier to implement in a clearly defined battlefield with a FEBA....not the situation in Iraq at the time of the incident. However, I would suggest that there might be some kind of middle ground between this approach and the way this guy was treated by his CO and unit?

[wessex19]

AP-
"The deaths raised to 500 the number of US forces who have died since the US-led invasion of Iraq began on March 20. Of those, 346 died as a result of hostile action and 154 died of non-hostile causes, according to Defence Department figures in addition to those reported"

I wonder how many of the 154 deaths were suicide?? A very ugly situation for the US military has evolved here.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

WC,
You are without doubt the right stuff. One can almost smell/touch your machismo............you are the stereotypical Rambo..........or is it dumbo:mad:

My good lady approached child birth twice with the fortitude that only women can have with the prospect of pasing a "bowling ball" However spot a fast crawling arachnid and she turns to jello...........keeping it simple for you:p

Picked a guy up in the back of Puma once who, unfortunately was already toast........poor basta@d However we worked on him for over 20 minutes, but to no avail. At the time it freaked me out for a while but I got got over it....................... but this poor basta@d here saw a guy shredded, fu@k me how bad could it get.................................... and you have no sympathy:{

Q....How much "mince" have you ever been exposed to???

Get real fella he is not a coward he is a VICTIM and should be treated accordingly

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[English National]

It seems everyone agrees it was right to take SS Pogany out of the situation, for whatever the reason.

Surely the debates are whether he should be branded a “coward” and his subsequent treatment.

Army chaplain’s opinion: "combat stress."
Army psychologist's opinion: "combat stress."
Hospital psychologist's opinion after treatment: "The soldier should be returned to duty with no change in duty status."
Cowardice charge dropped.
Dereliction of duty charge dropped.

So why do his commanders continue to persecute him. Where is the proof of "cowardice"?

W C appears to be doing much posturing. I wonder where we will find his weakness!

[Scoundrel]

WC (excuse the quiet titters and embarrassed coughs from some of the British contingency ) has it occurred to you that not everyone would want to go into battle with you either?

Your gung ho, macho Rarrrrrrrrrrr attitude of "look left, look right and if my buddies are going in I'm going to go too" might be wrong? They may be blindly engaging (the same as you ) with no real reason or understanding of Why, apart from 'their buddies are doing it.'

I have seen/experienced much of what you have mentioned but I would not put a label on any other human being because they cannot stomach what I can. Horses for courses I say old chap.

[West Coast]

Well, now
Go away on a trip and come back to this.

Scoundrel
I am aware of what the letters WC may mean to some. If they feel they need to laugh over it, well theres nothing I really have to say to them.

I am not rambo. I believe the words gung ho in native tongue mean work together. If so then yes I am gung ho.
I also have experienced what you speak of and I was scared, damn scared. I would have rather been anywhere else than where I was. I however quietly went about my business thanks to training and having buddies around I didn't want to let down.

Always broken
You seemed to have persevered through your hardships, this chap should have tried to do the same.
To answer your question, gulf war, the classic and Somalia(prior to the debacle) I saw plenty of mince as you call it. I also flew air ambulance in the civilian world and saw far more of it than anyone would like.

[Scoundrel]

Helooo West Count-...ry.

Glad to see you back buddie.

Soooooooo... do you still think the guy is a Coward?

(I was harsh but it needed to be said, we all know your sentiments).

West Country. I apologise for my behaviour.

[West Coast]

What inference is west country?

Perhaps I am not aware of what WC may mean to some.

[The Swinging Monkey]

West Coast,

I don't think anyone is particularly having a go at you, but what is the point of 'hanging' this guy out to dry?
Presumably he tried his best, and he couldn't hack it so, he was shipped out. I can't see too much wrong with that.
As others have said, until you are there, faced with the 'mince' as you call it, then you will never know. And even all the training in the world cannot prepare you for that day when you are faced with reality and have to deal with it yourself.
Certainly during my days on RAF SAR helo's we went and spent a week or so with the London Ambulance brigade, to get first hand experience of blood and guts. It helped of course, but until you yourself are put in the position where you have to deal with it, then you can watch films and watch others all day long, but it 'aint the same as doing it yourself!!'
Give the guy a break, I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted it to turn out that way, and at least he gave it a go, and for that he should be commended.

Best wishes and kind regards

The Swinging Monkey

[West Coast]

Swinging monkey
This is turning into a circular argument so I will leave it at this.

What he saw, I and probably you have seen at roadside accidents. He saw something no one likes and opted out. He didn't see combat. If he had given his best in a combat situation and it wasn't there than okay. I don't believe he reached that point.

Some people have to be pushed a bit to be tested. He was not a casualty of combat in that he was tested and failed. He never had a chance to find out if he could sustain. I don't think anyone likes to see butchered bodies, what if everyone who saw one asked to be let go. Where does the problem with that begin? When its a grain of sand with one person or a mountain of sand when units find out that seeing a body gets you out of duty.

[Scud-U-Like]

It seems stress is taking a more than the average toll in Iraq:

Stress epidemic strikes American forces in Iraq

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1130771,00.html

[gravity victim]

The effect of seeing a mutilated body has much to do with context, I think. I was by chance' first on scene' when a well-known veteran display pilot (over 70) tragically crashed and burned at an air display in East Anglia in the 70's. With me were two USAF 'PJ' pararescue medics (based at RAF Woodbridge) who had just come back from Vietnam, where they had seen and dealt with the full range of horrors.

They were very surprised at their own reaction - just how very shocked and upset they were, and they put it down to being on a grassy english airfield, on a pleasant summer's day - it was the incongruity of it that was shocking.