Ready to fork out 22K for Line training

[M.85]

Hi guys,

I know this thread has been out already in various forms and the Moderators dont really want another one.
But for those who know more or less what im about and my problems to find ANY sort of aviation employement(just got a no thanks from a Seneca operator in UK!!),I have come to the conclusion that I need to fork out 22K to gain experience in Europe before im "marketable"..
NetJets have been the only ones asking me for an interview and therefore tried to give me a chance..but things didnt turn out the way I hoped...
I have the opportunity to sell one of the flats which I would get as heritage earlier which would allow to pay for such experience.
Knowing I will fly for nothing and pay to work already gives me the nausea..but I dont see any other way now or in the future.
Guys with a PPL and 5o hours have the chance to be sponsored in full,and im very glad they can because in a way they deserve it..clever little boys..but with too much experience for some and not enough for the others..what else is there to do??
Im not really asking for peope to shoot at me because im taking others people jobs ..but need to write what i feel..
Airlines take on guys which are flying already and who want to change Airlines..no jobs for a first comer..
I am not ready to be scammed either and therefor looking for airlines which provide such training.
I know Astraeus does..i did my type through Bond merely to get my initial JAA licence issued.

I am giving myself until April to go for it if nothing concrete comes along by then..
I never thought a JAA ATPL and over 2500 hours on turboprops wouldnt allow me at least a Seneca job...well the fact is it doesnt..the European market is definitively not the American one..

I hope things work out otherwise in the meantime but if all comes to hell like it seems now..ill pay again and hope for better chances..but Airlines BEWARE..my loyalty is gone..when qualified i will leave any airline for better conditions and pay if possible..

All the best to all of you in Aviation,

Safe flying,

M.85

[Easy Glider]

If you pay an airline to fly their airplanes, you are just out of your ******g mind.

Why don't we all just inform our respective employers that we no longer require payment for our services and will actually pay them for the "honour" of working for them.

Sorry but that's what it amounts to.

Why did netjets not work out???

[df1]

I am sorry but I can't help but feel that the last post is totally unhelpful and discouraging not to mention rude.

The gentleman has a legitimate question regarding his employability. He considers that making additional investment may allow him to meet certain companies entry requirements. Furthermore, he seems able to afford this investment.

I don't beleive he is offering to work his entire career for free - less still pay for it!

His next meeting with NetJets might see them make an offer of employment based on experience.

Best of luck, M.85.

[Easy Glider]

Sorry, but if you work for nothing you are worth nothing - that's how it is.

[FlyingForFun]

M.85,

There are people out there getting employed at the moment - we've seen plenty of people from these forums who have done so. I guess it's pretty hard to do this objectively, but why do you think they are getting employed and not you? Have you asked any employers who have rejected you why they've done so? Are you applying to places which are known to take on people with your experience?

Could it be that a small change to your CV, or a small piece of additional training in something like interview techniques, for example, might make a bigger difference for far less financial cost (and far less vitriol from other pilots when you offer to fly for free)?

Like I said, it's pretty difficult to view yourself in a critical light objectively, so definitely worth seeking advice from others before completely dismissing the idea.

As for your post, it sounds as if you're not asking for advice so much as letting us know what you're doing. Advice has been asked for many times before, and is usually the same, but whether you choose to take the advice or not I'm definitely interested in hearing how it works out for you. Good luck!

FFF
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[Bealzebub]

I am slightly confused. M 0.85 your profile shows your current type as a B737. If this is the case and obviously I don't know your full picture you ought to be seeking interviews with the 737 operators who are rapidly expanding such as Ryanair and Easyjet to name but two. The posting however only refers to 2500 hours of turboprop time ? Even so that is quite a reasonable amount of turboprop time and ought to stand up quite well.

Line training is something you get after you start a job it shouldn't be something you buy. It is an introduction to a particular companies operating principles and procedures, and differs from company to company to some extent. I am not sure what good it does since any other company offering you employment would require you to do line training to their satisfaction in any event.

On the face of it I cannot see why you would have any less chance of being employed on your qualifications.

Do you have the right to work in Europe ?
Do you have all the relevant licences issued ?
Are your licences and medical certificates valid and current ?
Is your age commensurate with your experience ?
Does your educational background give you a competitive edge ?
Is your CV a good marketing tool ?
Do you present a tidy and mature image at interview.
If not getting interviews do you present a tidy and mature CV ?

Without any knowledge of you, they would be some of the questions I would recommend anybody seriously address before presenting themselves for any stage of a job application.

You are correct in your statement that most airlines will consider applications from qualified and experienced pilots changing jobs from other carriers. All airlines want the best people they can get for the price they pay for the job. In fact I think that probably applies to most companies whatever the industry may be.

As for "loyalty" it really isn't a case of "AIRLINES BEWARE" but I would suggest more a case of M0.85 beware! These days most employers expect a degree of loyalty from their employees. Indeed you will find that many airlines will contract you (bond) for a specific period. They would also want to weed out candidates who are likely to jump ship at an early stage of the selection process ( a point you may want to consider ). Nobody owes you a living. Airlines are commercial businesses who depend on profits in a cut throat market in order to survive. Every commodity that makes up their business must be cost effective. One of those commodities is employees. It is a case of arriving at a commercial balance that satisfies the senior management stategy of a company that will ultimately decide the fate of an individual company. You need to convince a sceptical employer that you will be an absolute asset to the company. This is a difficult achievement which initially requires getting a foot in the door. My advice remains present a confident, mature and tidy application.

Good luck !

[M.85]

Dear Bealz,

Thanks for inputs.
I am indeed current on the B737 but not flying it.
The 2500 hours of turboprop are coming from my American commercial experience,I have none in Europe.
The licence is a green one.
The medical is valid.
My CV i think is within the correct norm.

The Line training i was refering to is a programme offer which allows one to build time on the B737.,the actual Line training and a block of hours.

Airlines do need experience on type and i dont have any.I have never flown in Europe and i tried the last 6 months to get any commercial experience possible..not even a light twin to get my hands on.
Its getting close to despair...but im not 100% ready to pay 22k..I am just more and more contemplating the idea.
Concerning the "airlines beware",maybe it was a bit harsh..i wanted to explain that loyalty for me means a lot.If an airline would give me,which i believe is my first chance,I would be loyal but if I had to pay 22k to get experience and THEN and only then get an offer for a position,it wouldnt be the same kind of loyalty..is that understandable?
I have been given lots of advices in this website and I thank each of you for the help.
I am sure you would understand that with some experience i never thought after such a long and expensive conversion(FAA to a JAA ATPL)i wouldnt be able to get a job on a seneca right seat..
How does one get experience then?
Does renting a C152 for a few hours to stay in current "flying"practice that essential?

Regards,

M.85

[Bealzebub]

I think I am slightly clearer now M.85. If I understand correctly you have a type rating on a 737 but no experience. Playing devils advocate I am assuming as a potential employer that you paid for a 737 type rating course ? I am wondering why you have no experience. Most type rated pilots applying for jobs do of course have experience. This then begs the question what is acceptable experience ? I would venture to suggest that a figure of over 500 hours would be meaningful. This represents around one year of line flying ( yes I know some will do this in 6 months!).

If spending £22,000 to acquire a few hours on type (how many exactly ?) is going to help you then perhaps it is well worth doing. I am really not convinced though. Many airlines will employ pilots across a broad spectrum of backgrounds. Naturally they want the best value for money. This means good quality experience, and a sensible return for the training outlay. Experienced civilian pilots and pilots with a military background make up the primary bulk of their recruitment. For an all jet operator they like candidates with a strong background. This will inevitably be pilots moving from another carrier who are current on type or on a similar type of aircraft. where type ratings are going to be part of the cost of a candidates employment then it is reasonable to assume most airlines would want to be responsible for that training. They are going to offer it to the candidates who are both likely to succeed and to provide a good return on the companies investment. This is usually military pilots and those with a strong background in similar equipment. Jets first, turboprops second, piston engine aircraft third. Across the scale many companies are offering jobs on lower salaries to low hour candidates from traing institutions with a proven track record in CRM training and selective criteria such as CTC down in Hampshire. These institutions offer an airline a candidate who has satisfied most of the host airlines own assesment criteria.

Current on type is going to mean to most operators that you have flown the type regularly and usually within the last 90 days. That is because most type rated applicants will be in just that position.

I think keeping your licence and medical valid is most important even if it is on a C152 ( it won't cost £22.000 ). If you can buy sufficient experience to enhance your prospects and you feel it is worth it then why not ?

[M.85]

22k would be for 500 hours flown in a 6 months periode.
Yes i paid for a 737 rating..ask the CAA why..its part of a conversion package..14 exams,telephony licence and a type rating in a TRTO.The type rating exam(LST)is observed by a CAA Inspector who also judges you on your IR.(its a IR/ATPL skill test).
The CAA then issues you a JAA ATPL with a 737 rating.Of course the IR is multicrew only..which doesnt help for Seneca type job search...

M.85

[FlyingForFun]

Bealzebub has given what sounds to me like a good insight into the way that a jet employer might view you. Can I try (from my uninformed position) to do the same from the point of view of a turbo-prop (or piston) employer?

Here you are, with your shiny, unused 737 rating, which you've paid for yourself. Given that you've already invested lots of your own money into your type rating, it's probably reasonable for me to assume that you're going to want to use that type rating. In which case, if I give you a job flying Senecas or Twin Otters or anything else with propellors, how long are you going to stay with my company? My guess (not knowing anything about you, except what I see on your CV) would be as long as it takes you to get a jet job. That is not a good investment for me.

Of course, you can protest that you wouldn't do that, that you'd be quite happy flying my Senecas around for quite a few years. But you're not even getting the chance to tell the piston and turboprop operators why that's the case, because as soon as they see a jet type rating on your CV, the CV would probably (I would guess) go straight in the bin.

Maybe. Thoughts, anyone?

FFF
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[M.85]

I have a thought..
You are right and i understand ..of course if im given a 737 job i will take it.who wouldnt?but dont you understand that for airlines operator a mere rating is not enough..i do now..

It doesnt mean that I wouldnt fly freight for a few years either..I did a 737 to get an initial licence issue..not because i would only fly such type.


M.85

[FlyingForFun]

M.85,

You are right, of course. Now, stop trying to convince me, and start thinking about how you can change your CV in such a way that you can convince the employers. I am not an employer, so convincing me isn't going to achieve anything for you ;)

FFF
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[M.85]

trying to thoroughly explain not to convince..
I thought of deleting the 737 type but that would be lying and they will always find out how i got my licence..not a good idea..
M.85

[Bealzebub]

Indeed M.85 not a good idea ! Remember what I said about a tidy, mature presentation and giving yourself a competitive edge. This type rating is not a blot on your CV, it is something to be used as part of your armoury. The point I was making was that a type rating with no substantive experience was not likely to carry much weight when competing with other type rated pilots who would in all likelyhood have substantive experience.

From your own posting I would summize that your substantive experience is the 2500 hours amassed in turboprops and you should push this experience. Sell the "type rating" for what it is, that is a limited introduction to multi crew jet operations. You need to tailor your approach to the market. By that I mean present yourself and your experience and achievements as something positive to your prospective employer. A jet operator might well be impressed by your turbine background and your own personal assesment of having aquired a type rating whilst at the same time realising the need to absorb the employers own training culture from scratch.
On the other hand if you are applying for a job on single crew ops it might be as well to present your experience as being mainly on multi crew aircraft, but it is a part of the market you feel you need to involve yourself in for a few years to enhance your own portfolio whilst at the same time bringing enthusiasm and a good return for the employer.

Don't lie, but certainly use everything in your background and experience and tailor it for the market you are applying yourself to. The most important thing is going to be how you come across as an individual. It is very important to be tidy, mature, confident and likeable. If you are lacking in any of these things ( certainly at the presentation stage) then it won't matter if you have 10,000 hours on type. Be realistic , be honest, be yourself, but always be flexible.

Good luck !

[M.85]

bealzbub,

I think my problem is that my career path so far is not very traditional in any way..
For example,the 2500 hours of turboprop include 1400 hours in single ops in metros/be1900 ..but the licence i flew on was of course a FAA ATPL.
I have no experience in europe but the TRTO course.
So how do people get their first commercial experience here?My licence is a s good as any other ..isnt it?Caa inspector observed my every move as in the IR test/Atpl skill test/type rating..it was a long and busy session i tell you..
I believe my cv is showing my qualifications..not so many but it reflects that i can fly...
What else could i put on it?that I served drinks in a bar??that i am 80000£ in the red?that i would fly anything that flies for a few years as long as i can get that first experience every company seems to be looking for?

Anyways,Thanks for your remarks,

M.85

[Bealzebub]

M.85 You are welcome and I do understand your frustration. Getting the first job or indeed any job is always something of a lottery. The best you can do is to improve your chances. I think you may be a bit hung up on this "licence". Again from an employers point of view, it doesn't matter how good your licence is. It doesn't matter how much the CAA inspector observed your test, or how busy the session was. It is the same for everybody and is of no interest to anybody that matters. If you don't have the licence and all the relevant bits of paper your application would go straight in the bin with all the others. You say your CV reflects "that you can fly". Again so can everybody else presumably. This doesn't help you stand out, it as an absolutely basic prerequisit. Every single application that is not instantly filed in the "NO" pile will have these things as a fundamental basic.

Education is a valuable selling point, but if it not your best card then project those things that positively show the sort of things an employer is likely to be impressed by. Try and show the best attributes of your character. A CV is little more than a quick marketing shot of yourself, and as you know marketing flyers rarely impress. Research your market and put effort into your presentation. only if this works are you going to get to phase 2 the interview. then you have a short period of time to visually and verbally sell yourself.
you served drinks in a bar and are £8000 in the red. No that doesn't make you stand out either. However as part of your employment background the fact that you worked in customer service industries as part of your planned fiscal strategy towards the flying side of your further education, probably amounts to the same thing and sounds a whole lot better.

In my opinion being a Pilot is not about having a licence or being able to fly. it is about being able to effectively manage. It is about promoting the positive aspects of your individuality and suppressing the negative ones. it is about being able to interact with other people across a wide range of personalities and cultures to achieve a quality end product. Teamwork, leadership and contribution are all important, and again flexibility. This is what needs to come out of your CV. This is what needs to come across at interview. Everybody is different but the majority of Pilots posess most if not all of these attributes.

I appreciate that is is a difficult market at this time ( it usually is), however that is the case for everybody. Perhaps you should tear up your CV and re-think it carefully. Highlight your qualifications and experience of course but also sell yourself at the market you are seeking to enter. Most pilots are aspiring ambitious people and it is only natural for you and anybody else to want to constantly improve your own position. Companies are realistic and small turboprop operators and larger operators are under no illusion that many of their young (or older) pilots will eventually want to move on to pastures green. However they don't want to feel like incidental stepping stones and is not economic for them to allow themselves to be treated as such. There are of course many variables in life but I think an employer that gives you a break should be treated fairly and certainly in accordance with the terms of the contract. References become important to any aspiring pilot moving along a career path so it is very much in your interest to be regarded as a valuable employee.

I have probably gone on a bit too much on this subject so I will not add anything further other than to say your future is in your own hands. Sell yourself well and try and project yourself as just the sort of person you would want to spend 13 hours sitting next to in a flightdeck or someone you might be sent away with for 3 weeks or more. Very often the interviewer will be thinking just that !

[Andy_R]

No, I'm not a commercial pilot (yet!), but I am involved in hiring people and sometimes it is VERY difficult to see what image you portray without being on the outside and looking in.

This is what I see, and it may seem harsh, and without meeting you it may be totally incorrect:

Your posts do seem to carry an air of negativity and frustration (quite reasonable in your circumstances but must NOT be shown).

With that negativity comes self doubt and an air of worthlessness which starts to pervade everything about you, what you say and do.

Frustration leads to depression and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the stage you're at.

Now, before you commit hari-kari, I may be wrong, but that is how you seem to be coming over. Try and stand back and look
objectively at what you have to offer. I think the posts by Bealzebub, particularly the last one, have some very very good pointers of which way to go.

If necessary give yourself a bloody good kick up the backside (I know I've had to over the years), possibly even give yourself a break. Probably not what you can afford at the moment, but try and get a last minute break and just go and chill on a beach somewhere. It's amazing how a week away from all the pressures can change your outlook and give you some fighting spirit back.

Do not get hung up on the differences between FAA and European employers either. They are both very different and have very different ways of recruiting. They also have different ideas of what to look for in a potential employee - again take heed of other advice given here already.


And remember, nobody is saying you don't have the capability to fly. I hope that it all works out for you, from what we know of your background, you deserve it as much as the next guy.

Just try a different approach. :ok:

[M.85]

Dear Bealzebub and cloud 69,

I couldnt agree more on what you wrote..
I may seem hung up on my licences but it may the only thing i have to offer apart from great looks and humility:p
Its definitively hard to wait for so long and get no sign of improvement.
However you are both right to mention the need to look back and find a way to advertise myself differently.Unfortunately my career path has been only within the aviation business,Ie pilot.
Ir reminds me that someone in OAT had once told me i should write about my football experience(i played for a few years for my local town,i was 10.)I thought what a bunch of cr***,what would an airline care about if i played football 18 years ago or not..maybe i ll mention it:hmm:
Anyways,I got basically between both of you the best advice there could be on my situation and i would like to thank you for your time.
I will let this thread on for a few weeks in case someone is in the same position as i am and would take advantage of your posts..

Safe flying,

M.85

[Andy_R]

It takes one hell of a person to sit there and look at other peoples views constructively and you appear to be doing just that. Keep smiling, keep trying and one day your lucky break will come when you least expect it to. :ok: Good on you!!

[M.85]

cloud 69,

I think its the least i can do when people take some of their time trying to help..
And when the advices are so constructive,its a pleasure to read them.
Thanks again,

M.85

[skyman68]

Hello M85.

We are little bit in the same situation. You have probably worked for a part135 company in the USA for the packet industry(probably for a company based in Burbank) and when back in Europe, you are not able to find a job. Please send me a Privat message , maybe I can give you some advices. I think to know why you have some “problems”, I have helped some people to find a job .

[High Wing Drifter]

M.85,

Not sure if the is relevant to you and it is cetainly not particuarly ethical but something we IT people do a lot is tune the CV for the job. Drop the stuff that would'nt be of interest for a particular role and exentuate the stuff that would. The usual tricks are stick what you want them to see at the top, and the stuff that you need to say but rather wouldn't right at the end. For example, I haven't got a degree, so I plonk my CSEs and 'O' levels right at the end but summarise my key skills (I hate that phrase) right underneath my name. Chances are, most don't get that far and have already phoned the agency based on the first page :D I am sure FFF can relate to this to some degree being an IT bod and all :)

The same goes for the interview!

However, it is possible that Airline folk are somewhat better at understanding the jobs requirements than the average clueless IT manager. In which case forget everything I have said!!

[FlyingForFun]

I am sure FFF can relate to this to some degree being an IT bod and all Yes - it's very true. One particular job agency once spent a good half an hour on the phone to me, querying me about a skill in which I had a little experience, but not very much, but which was important to an employer which he was trying to place me with. The trick in this case was to customise the CV to highlight the skill sufficiently to get me an interview, but not so much that it looked suspicous when I couldn't answer detailed questions about it in the interview. Must have worked, because the employer tried to invite me back for a second stage interview, but I'd already accepted another job by then.

I would guess that, in M.85's case, the trick would be to have at least two CVs, one of which highlights the 737 rating (to give to jet operators) and other which tucks it away at the end (to give to anyone else). Not sure how frequently this kind of thing is seen in aviation, but it doesn't seem particularly "unethical" to me.

FFF
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[M.85]

Thats an idea..
Great phone call i got this morning from Tyrolean Airways..
The lady told me she had a question about the application they recieved and came to ask if i could speak/write German..I said no and she told me I would get a letter in the mail..
THATS a good one isnt it?After she hung up i thought i should have told her that yes i spoke german and my fav sentence was "PAPPIR BITTE!":yuk:
I then recieved an email saying that to get to an assessment i would to speak and write german and i should learn the language and only then could i send another application.
I emailed them back saying that in the case i get married to a german and decide to fly for them ill give them a call wishing them all the success..
What the F*** after all..they can shove their Dash8 up their @ss !
Sick and tired of that..
Now i feel better ..:E

M.85

[skyman68]

m85,

i send u an e mail...did u get it.

when people ask u a question , say YES!!!
u can still take a german book before the interview and learn some words....

[M.85]

Skyman i didnt get the letter..send one again please.Check your pm.
M.85