"Spitfire Ace" - C4

[StopStart]

In the wake of the "Dambusters" prog that was repeated over xmas, C4 are now doing a Spitfire version.

4 blokes being trained on the Tiger Moth, 2 go on to the Spitfire and then 1 does a 9 hr OCU on the Spit.

Might make for interesting viewing...C4 next Monday apparently

Spitfire Ace (http://rdfmedia.com/history/SpitfirePilot.asp)

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/biggles.gif

[Spugford]

Problem is, at least one of them looked like a stinking UAS puke, who'll no doubt bang on about how his uni mates are 'in awe of him' to qoute one special boy from that awe-inspiring production that was High Flyers.
(Apparently he didn't get in the RAF, the Navy took him!)

[kippermate]

One of my 'UAS pukes' was on the short list for the program but didn't get selected. Apparently girls can't fly spitfires...or something like that.

[Tonkenna]

Yep, one of my UAS Pukes was as well, untill he broke his wrist, and I'm not going in to how he did it, bur they do teach some odd stuff in expensive private schools!!

From what I remember I think they where loking for a couple of Mil student pilots, a UAS student and a civvie, but I may be wrong (often am;) )

Tonks

[Gainesy]

Well Kippermate, your young lady stude is going to be well pissed-off because they are using Caroline Grace's two-seat a/c (with Caroline aboard as safety pilot, the stude will not solo it I understand).

[NURSE]

would you let someone with 9hours loose in a classic aircraft?

[Stuff]

You have less than 9 hours on type when you get let loose on the Hawk, the GR7 and the Jag. Don't see what's wrong with it personally..........

[Runaway Gun]

BUT (and it's a BIG but).. none of them are taildraggers.

[Stuff]

Oh, I'm not sure about that, have you seen a Jag trying to get airborne?

[Zlin526]

I think you'll find the stude will definately be in the back seat, with a VERY experienced handling pilot in the front. I can't see any insurance underwriter insuring the aeroplane with a 9hr UAS puke as P1, especially as they tend to massively overcharge for today's warbird pilots, no matter how experienced on type they are. Typical insurance quote for a Mustang is in the region of £30,000!

Thinks....You don't see many poor insurance underwriters!
http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/cussing2.gif

[Full ProSPin]

The 'stinking UAS puke' is a mate of mine, a bloody good guy, and contrary to earlier comment, has indeed been selected for entry into the big bad real air force. Let's get our facts straight please, chaps.

FPS

[chromate]

Are we referring to the guy that played the piano? I didn't see the whole of High Flyers, but he seemed like a decent kind of a bloke to me. I remember feeling sorry for him when he didn't get selected. In fact, good luck to him! :)

[Human Factor]

Lucky, lucky b............

Will keep doing the lottery. There's always the P-51 at Kissimee I suppose. :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0172]

just in response to Spugford earlier in the thread, the chap whose mates were "in awe of him" was not accepted by the RAF or the RN thank god! He was a prize tw@t who is now an estate agent i believe.......hmmmmm how appropriate.

[chromate]

We surely can't be talking about the same person here? Did your "stinking UAS puke, prize tw@t", that you're refering to, play the piano and was he also trying to lose weight? I'm probably thinking of someone else.

Did you read Full ProSPin's comments? Hmmm.

[MadsDad]

I mentioned the show to a mate of mine and he came up with a novel idea for deciding who is best.

After getting their regulation 9 hours training get 4 spitfires and arm them. 4 spitfires take off. The one who lands is obviously the winner. :{

[Divergent Phugoid!]

Hi, just seen the Tv Programme and am very very Jealous!! Good luck to those guys...

My question:

They stated that Carolyn Graces was the only two seater servicable Spit in the country.

I remember last year, seeing a twin in the line up in the BBMF Hangar. Can any one assist, was this a second one or was this Carolyn's in for repair. And does anyone know of any others in existance either here or abroad??

DP :ok:

[Scud-U-Like]

Great programme, clever concept and very evocative of the bravery and youth of our WW2 pilots.

[Waldo Pepper]

I think what they were saying is that the Grace Spit is the only 2 seater flying with a WW2 pedigree...there are a couple of others knocking about, I think.
It made interesting viewing...Brendan is always good for a bit of theatre, and these reality shows certainly go big on that. Couldn't watch as those two got chopped though. Having been chopped and selected at a later date, I know which I prefer...
Shame they don't get a chance to land it, but it makes perfect sense for them not to when you consider the costs involved. Not flown a Spitfire myself but have a few hundred hours on taidraggers of the Stampe/Pitts/Harvard variety, and have heard it said that takeoff and landing in an S2b is not unlike an early Spit, in terms of acceleration and visibility. If that's the case, I'm not surprised they lost so many on the ground way back in the days.

[chromate]

Would have been nice to see and hear a bit more of their flying experiences and comments etc. There are many history progs on the Spit, but let's face it, how many times do you get to see a couple of newbies strap one on?

I hope this imbalance will be redressed in the forthcoming episodes !! :) I'm sure it will...

[NURSE]

There was some lovely footage of OU-V in it have seen it at local airshow once. Didn't they do a documentry on the history of it with Caroline Grace's late husband?
I love the comentry about the description the pilots gave the Spitfire. I don't think supermarine Shrew really has a good ring to it though.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Overall a very good programme. With three more episodes to come it should be interesting.

BTW, the nice lady's name is Carolyn, not Caroline, I got mildly rebuked by her for that. So have a few others no doubt. :D

NURSE It was some time ago now but yes there was a programme made called "The Perfect Lady" - which was all about Nick's rebuild of OU-V.

[FlyboyBen]

I notice a definite change to the tone of this thread from before and after the airing of this programme.

Did I detect a hint of jealously in the voices of those who posted before the programme?? :{

I imagine it would be the dream of most flyers out there to get their hands on a Spitfire, and for C4 to give the opportunity to a few PPLers and "UAS pukes", how dare they :ok:

For me, it was a good and enjoyable programme, nice shots of the aircraft and some interesting interviews with former B of B pilots.

[NURSE]

did you actually watch the programme cause the UAS guy was chopped and it was the RAF pilot and one of the 2 PPL guys who got to go forward. I liked Carolyn's comment on the PPL guys ability.
But both the UAS guy and the other PPL guy appeared to enjoy flying the tiger moth and is that not a good thing. even though they didn't get the prize they still had something positive to take away.

[cyrus]

Although it is good to watch I can't help but think that this programme has already lost its' way after just one episode. How can they parallel the WW2 ab initio spitfire pilot's experiences if the subject stays in the back seat and does not learn to land and take off. The latter two capabilities were about all the young men had when they were launched into battle.

[motionlotion]

Great programme, sights, sound and splicing were excellent - coupled with the obviously close to the heart memories of the B o B pilots, made this oh so short series, well worth watching. Looking forward to next weeks slot, we don't see much of this sort of thing on terrestrial TV.

Just a pity (from experience), they had to go with O'Brien, both he and the UAS puke made quite a team - players to the end. That said O'Brien made the right choice or had it made for him, in choosing the lucky pair - but what a roll model …. Eeeugh!


:yuk:

[ACW 335]

Was quite obvious that they would have to pick one of the RAF ones and one of the civvy ones. So why were there no girlies and how did they select for the program?

[You want it when?]

Could be more fun to let them play in one of the single seat BBMF Spitfires. :p Great show, but I thought if it was four parts then surely all we should see in Part 1 was the Tiger Moth sessions, Part 2 the whittling down process, part three the selection etc... it seems to have galloped along a bit.

[witchdoctor]

I thought they did have a girlie in it! Why else all the bleach-blonde hair? Glad it got chopped though - can you really imagine that wazzock being let loose on a beauty like the Spit?:yuk:

And the UAS stude was doing exactly what his training taught him, and was in the bar practicing for the C5 follow up "Drink Like A Spitfire Ace".

By the way, who the hell wears cravats these days? Tool.:rolleyes:

[chromate]

Great show, but I thought if it was four parts then surely all we should see in Part 1 was the Tiger Moth sessions, Part 2 the whittling down process, part three the selection etc... it seems to have galloped along a bit.

Exactly. Seemed to be only about 15 min actual flying footage with respect to the focus of the programme, the rest was just re-hash of old footage. Shame. Less interviews, more flying please!

Speaking of interviewees, anyone read J Wellum's book? Good read.

Just a pity (from experience), they had to go with O'Brien

Oh come on, "Make love to the sky, don't shag it" :) From experience?

[small_dog]

I would have thought that wearing a cravat in an open cockpit would have been a practical attempt to keep warm rather than trying to look good (or not). I suppose a standard roll neck top could have done the business just as well.

[RobinXe]

As far as the shows spit being the only two-seater Mk9 in the country, I don't believe that is correct. A Mk9 flies into the airfield where I work from time to time, and while Im not SURE its not the same one, the absence of the "invasion markings" in my photos seems to suggest they are two different planes. I believe this one was recovered from North Africa some time after the war for a complete restoration.

Check out this pic of the Mk9 with my own Mk3 Spitfire :ok:

Mk9 and Mk3 together! (http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~crosses/spitfire1.jpg)

[chromate]

Is that a Mk3? Looks like a Mk2? I dunno. I'm restoring a GT6.

[RobinXe]

Yup, deffo a Mk3, one of the last, built in 1970. The most easily identifiable difference from the Mk2 is the height of the front bumper, which had to be raised in order to comply with US regulations for the export market. The Mk2's is much lower, showing off the sexy smile of the grille.

[motionlotion]

chromate:

Yes, from experience - it's the same old dog-eared, regurgitated, one liners from a sad old 24 carrot full-on nob.

[chromate]

Wow. He really has rattled you! What happened then? Do share!

[kippermate]

Chromate:

Shame. Less interviews, more flying please !

Got to disagree. Anyone who did what these guys did, and survived has a right to be heard. And I, for one, am more than happy to watch a TV prog with the BOB vets and without the yoof of today getting a jolly in a Spitfire.

But that's probably just jealousy. And he'll get chopped at Linton!

[chromate]

I understand what you're saying and I do agree in part. They do have the right to be heard and indeed, I really do enjoy listening. But that's just the point, a lot of the interviews and footage have appeared in numerous other programmes before. Maybe I spend too much time watching Discovery Wings :)

Whilst we have the ideal opportunity to see something totally new and something that would grab the public's attention, it seems a shame to be filling it with all the old stuff once again. Not in any way at all would I suggest they don't show any archive footage or interviews. I just think the balance they had in the similar dambuster series was far more appropriate and served to fulfil that programme's objectives far better.

Still, we've only seen one episode, so it's perhaps a little too early to comment at all. :)

[Arkroyal]

The moment that dork called my Spitfire a 'plane' he'd have been sent on a carpentry course:yuk:

[NURSE]

well episode II and the RAF pilot gets chopped.

[bluetail]

"and the RAF pilot gets chopped".

Which to be honest was probably always going to happen anyway, Remember the show is trying to show how someone with very few hours had to go to war, The RAF guys has loads of hours already.

It was an easy call.....admitted the civvy is not a bad pilot considering he was a bit rusty at the start of the show........but its still all a bit false don,t you think

(There,s no way Caroline is going to let anyone loose on their own in her Spit after just 9 hours).

The best bit last night was when Caroline put on a bit a "G" which can,t have been much more than 4 or 5 because she would have wanted to break her newly maintained aircraft and the poor civvy toppled completely.

The only thing missing was a good barfing

[Spugford]

I don't have the benefit of video replay so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the RAF guy who blacked out?? He certainly didn't look well when they landed.

Anyway, top program and I must admit to getting a little emotional when the lads went flying. Great to see that PPLers and service guys appreciated it all so much.

Top quote from one of the vets, comparing air to air with shooting game.

'.......... pheasant is a bit safer'

Looking forward to next week...

[Meldrew]

Yes it was the RAF guy who suffered G-Loc. Maybe the other guy did as well? but they didnt show it?? Just being cynical for a moment ( as is my way) The programme, although without a doubt interesting and generally a joy to watch, is just a little bit PC? Lady instructor pilot ( not doubting her abilities for a moment) chop the RAF guy and lets show an ordinary PPL making good. Very typical of TV communication in general in Tony's world.

I speak as a pilot and somebody who works in TV. The programme is a great tribute to the Battle of Britain guys, but from the advanced publicity for the programme, I was hoping to see more on the lads training in the Spitfire and slightly less of the historical documentary element.

[StopStart]

Have to agree really.

The interviews with the veterans etc is superb, sobering stuff and would frankly make a programme on it's own.

The training of the ab-initios seems to be just glossed over which is a shame really...

[BEagle]

I agree with Stoppers. Whilst the historical bit is fascinating, trying to squeeze that, the selection, assessment and ab-initio training into such a time frame is a bit too much really. Makes the programme rather...stop start at times.

And yes, I did wonder whether there was a little of the 'local lad makes good' air about it. But good luck to the chap involved, seems a good lad. Might need some more tempered aggression when it comes to the air fighting aspects, perhaps?

A bit of 1v1..oops, sorry, I mean 'tail-chasing' in a couple of Bulldogs or those tupperware terrors might have been an interesting bit of training to have included? Sport of kings that was, eh Stoppers? For those who didn't mind a bit of 'aerobation', that is!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Can't grumble with the quality of the programme, good stuff. Especially the 'lads' who come across so well. Shame someone got it wrong when showing a picture of "Sailor" Malan, of 74 Squadron fame, they showed a picture of Roland "Bee" Beamont! Still, "Bee" was a BoB pilot.

[chromate]

At last, some people agree with me! :) I thought I was going mad.

I feel like there are two separate programmes here rolled into one - they're fighting each other and the wrong one is winning! I absolutely loved listening to the Bob pilots in this episode! But again the balance is wrong.

I kept thinking "I have absolutely no idea of what's happening with the two guys desperately trying to get the 9 hours training" Then they would cut to some footage of one of the competing guys in the spit, but quicker than I could think, "Oh great, they've actually decided to show us what's going on", they switch back to the history side of things again.

There was a small bit where they cut to Carolyn discussing something with the two of them... Lasted about 3 seconds before being overdubbed by the commentator and then, again, we're pulled back into the history programme.

I hope this poor editing doesn't continue. It's spoiling what could be a fantastic prog.

Near the end the commentator interjected with something like, " the time is getting near when Carolyn will decide which one of the two go on to get the 9 hours training." Oh really? Well thanks for letting us know!

I have absolutely no opinion of who I thought should have won the 9 hours, because they simply didn't show enough of what was going on. Good luck to Dave though. What an opportunity!

Still, on the up-side, I did enjoy the interviews :)

[kippermate]

Got to say that I though that last night's episode was a bit disappointing. As mentioned previously, I thought that the old boys came across brilliantly but there was very little about the yoof flying in a Spitfire. Still you can't win them all.

I'll probably give it another chance next week.:hmm:

[chromate]

That's what I said last week ;) Maybe we'll be in luck next week as he starts the 9 hours of training. I mean they must focus on what he's actually learning next week, surely?!

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

Yeah , have to agree with some of the sentiments here, poor editing balance with a suspicious lack of footage of the flying itself.

Fingers crossed for the 3rd episode to redeem itself.

A unique program on how to fly the machine itself would be priceless, not taking anything from the interviewees, it's just that you can see all that SAME stuff over on Discovery Wings 24/7!

That RAF guy was not looking happy AT ALL during those Aero's! I wonder if he held down his lunch?! :yuk: All the posters on this thread going on about who got chopped and why etc etc! Ha Ha Good to see some things never change!!!

Reminded me of being a Pax in a Hawk with an ex-Red 1, during a 2v1 against two of his old buddies, an amazing, wonderful, and inspirational experience, but alas my poor body and mind gave up and nearly turned inside out! :\

Now I'm Civvy and sit at 39'000ft, now seeing my breakfast only once! ;)

[aluminium persuader]

I believe that the reason no girls (Carolyn excepted) feature is due to trying to keep as close as possible to the tyros of the day; ie, private, RAuxAf, VR etc. And yes, I know a lot of girls flew fighters during the war, but I think not during the BoB, and not in combat.

Changing the subject slightly, I don't know any of the tyros, but I do know Carolyn vaguely and am full of admiration for all she's done.

:ok:

[SpinSpinSugar]

A bump for this one tonight (The intrepid civvy undergoes navigation training, formation flight training, etc., history on Radar and so forth), plus a note that for those with an interest in all things WWII there is a futher hour of interesting TV before hand.

From 8pm, Channel 4, "Hitler's Plan to Atom Bomb New York" - lots of footage of Horten and co's wonderplanes and rockets from late in the war, Spitfire Ace follows at 9pm.

Cheers,

SSS

[tony draper]

This is normaly the type of documentry I love, but I confess to being a tad disapoiinted with this one,this weeks is still running as we speak but I think its going to be more of the same.
Most of the Interviews and comments by the B of B pilots themselves and history of the battle has been covered in other documentries in more detail, indeed I think a few have been lifted directly from the other B of B docs, the only pilot interview I have never seen before is the chap with the magnificent tash.
This weeks supposedly covers close formation flying,wasn't that very thing discredited very early on in the battle? it meant the chaps had to concentrate on keeping station rather than keeping toot for the old hun in the sun?it surely meant only the flight leader at the front was the only one free to scan the skies.
I wonder what the total footage of the guy actually flying the Spit compared to the rest of the doc is.
The Dam buster documentry was of a simular format but it combined much more of the guys actually simulating the Dam attacks with the History.

oops! the formation bit is being covered right now.

[BEagle]

Sorry, but I thought tonight's progamme was pretty dull. No stucture and jumped from topic to topic far too quickly.

Whereas the preceding programme was far more interesting. Lots of information about very clever technology (particularly the Horten wing) - not much about the nuclear weapon though.

[RobinXe]

Couldn't agree more Beag! Amazing how much stuff the "world beating" yanks actually pinched off the Nazis eh? ;)

I kinda get bored watching Spitfire Ace now, and end up reading my thrilling account of the Falklands thats on my OS reading list :P

[Briney]

I've been recording/watching both Spitfire Ace and Combat Pilot but I'm afraid that I'm going to concentrate on Combat Pilot from now on. If you can get Sky channel 961 take a look, it's becoming very absorbing, especially trying to figure out who gets axed (my money is on Lewis).

[soddim]

Seems like this programme has now completely lost its' way. Our 'Spitfire Ace' is looking more and more like he is relegated to the passenger seat and even after 9 hours on type he will not be able to land. His navigation training appeared to comprise 'left a bit, right a bit' from the front seat and the two seater appeared to spend more time leading the formation than in the number two slot.

Only the reminiscences of the old boys make it worth watching.

[chromate]

More of the same tonight. Disappointing. There's no two ways about it - they should have made two programmes out of this. I've said it all in previous posts so I wont go on about it!

If only I could get channel 961 :( Oh well, it's one to look forward to in the future I guess. Unless anyone's videoing it? I'd love a copy! ;) ;)

[BEagle]

Yes- and I hasten to add that the modest reminiscences of the BoB veterans were far from 'dull'. That was my overall assessment, the gallant old chaps were the only bright spots in the whole rather underwhelming programme (apart from the great Spitfire sounds!).

As for the 'instructional technique', well, let's not even go down that route....!

[Spugford]

It's v sad but there's less and less modern Spit footage every week, strange when C4 advertised the series as a v similar affair to the Dambusters series, but it hasn't even turned out as half-decent as that. Shame.

Anyway, without wanting to cross the streams with the Combat Pilot thread, a message to dearest Briney, keep watching my old, there's something of a twist in this so far surprisingly good tale of sunny Valley!

'Nuff said! ;)

[BikerMark]

What seems to be missing in the programme is the whole section of advanced flying training which pilots underwent in things like Harvards & Masters, getting to grips with the "new technology" of the time.

Did RAF pilots ever go straight from basic trainers to combat aircraft? I didn't think so, but stand to be corrected if they did.

The interviews with veterans of the battle are very well done. These guys must be in their 70s & 80s. I hope I'll be as lucid and dignified as they are when I get to that age. No histrionics, just a matter of fact description of what went on, including a realism about RAF shortcomings. I very much respect that. It's also good to see contributions from ground crew, so often an overlooked group.

As they stand, the modern sequences look a little bit like "nice days out" in a two seat Spitfire, which I'm sure does the trainee pilots an injustice. On the other hand, if they are just nice days out, gissa go missus!

Mark

[twinboom]

Guys/Gals.

You have all read Wellums book, "First Light" - haven't you?

If not - sell all available grandmothers to procure copy soonest and do so.

His prose is startlingly eloquent.

[Arkroyal]

Funny that when 'the big wing' was thought to be a good idea, none other than Bader took the credit.

Now it's being panned, his name isn't mentioned at all, and poor old Leigh-Mallory (whose chest bore the imprint of DB's pipe) carries the can!

Talking of DB, why wasn't he found guilty of Gross Negligence after his Woodley epic?

Proobably had bosses with more spine than Day and Wratten:yuk:

[PPRuNe Pop]

Actually, would you believe!! His boss was at the time was a Sqdn Ldr(?) called Day. In fact the name Day finds it's way in various parts of the Air Force annals. But I agree, DB should have been bought to account. But then when you lose two legs I guess them in charge might think that he had had his court martial.

Not one of the heroes as far as I am concerned.

I am reading a book at the moment called "Battle of Britian New Perspectives" by John Ray. Leigh-Mallory comes out the worst, Dowding second best and Park the winner by a mile. Very interesting book.

[Arkroyal]

But then when you lose two legs I guess them in charge might think that he had had his court martial Indeed, Pop. And you and I agree that being killed should also count!

Sorry to go off-thread