Forgive my ignorance

[Oneday78]

Not to p!ss everyone off too much. As no doubt this has been asked before, but I'll be damned if I can find the info. on a previous thread........(someone's going to attach the perfect link, I know....)

I want to go down the modular route to gain the right to fly for reward. First step is to get the PPL. Will probably do in US...but my question is JAA or FAA PPL?. Taking into account I will most likely (or at least want to) do the CPL etc back in the UK.

What needs to be done if I go the FAA route?. Loads of exams etc to convert into JAA once back in Britain?

[My names Turkish]

From a students perspective it may be better for you to go down the JAA PPL route. You will have the benefit when you go to do your ATPL exams of having covered the basic material during your PPL studies. The FAA licence is handy to have if you can afford it after the JAA PPL. The written exams are very straight forward, as you get the full question bank before sitting the exam, the flight test is slightly harder and I certainly felt I benefitted from it. You shouldnt need more than 10 hours in the worst case scenario.

I know that some people have come over and done the FAA licence first and on the back of that converted it to JAA, this has the benefit of letting you skip some of the exams bar Air Law and Navigation(?), but again if you are thinking of going all the way to Commercial its nice to have covered some of the subjects you will cover in the JAA PPL.

Another point to note, and I dont know how important it is or what difference it makes if any, is that on your JAA licence it will have words to the effect of "Issued on the basis of FAA licence". Now, if that might make a difference to anybody at any point I dont know.

Has that answered your question?

[Funkie]

Oneday78,

Can I ask why you intend to do your PPL in the US?

Is this purely from a cost aspect? If so, remember you will have to fly to the states and return, organise some accommodation for a number of weeks, make allowance for living costs - oh and obtain a Visa, then do some additional flying in the UK to get you up to speed.

It might not be all that cheaper!!

Sure you may have other reasons, I’m just curious.

All the best with the training.

Funkie:ok:

[Oneday78]

Thanks for the reponses.

Turkish: that has answered my question. It all makes sense in what you are saying and I take your point about the license issue. Thanks.

Funkie: Its mainly cost that is the driving factor, but not the only one. Having realistically priced up my options I will (should) be able to save at least £1.5k by going to America, compared to my local clubs. Another factor which has its attractions to me is the fact I could do it in about a month. I will be able to get this time off work and the weather in the US should allow me to complete this compared to the UK weather in March/April time. (Looking out of the window now…its currently p!ssing down, and no doubt it will stay like this till June). So getting it done in intensive chunk, rather than bits and pieces over a number of weekends = months seems more appealing to me.

If you feel that I’m missing some points about UK training let me know as nothing is set in stone yet and I would like to know your views on it. Cheers.

TC.

[Funkie]

Oneday78,

Time is an important factor - sh!t it’s taken me almost two years and I still ain’t got my PPL. Having the time has been my biggest enemy.

From what I gather, there is a stigmatism about US gained PPL’s. Now before I get shot down, perhaps I should explain myself.

PPL training conducted in the US is, in the main, conducted in significantly less crowded airspace than that of the UK. I can recall over hearing a conversation with student who had recently obtained his PPL in the States and felt the need for some consolidarity training for flying in the UK. He appeared extremely nervous at the suggestion of flying through an airports control zone. Not what I would expect of anybody with a PPL. But apparently this is a common scenario.

I agree that flying in the UK is governed by the weather and there are benefit’s in time saving by going to the States or South Africa, but how much money will really be saved and will obtaining a foreign PPL effect you in other ways? Accurately calculate all costs; air travel - accommodation - living costs - quality of theoretical training for the long term - the training environment - Getting into the US!!!!!! I’m sure have done this, I’m just emphasising it.

Perhaps contacting a flying school in the US and discussing your queries with them may shed some light on the subject. Have a look at the CAA website, search for ‘LASORS’ you’ll find useful information there on licensing.

Hope this has helped.

Funkie:ok:

[englishal]

significantly less crowded airspace than that of the UK
Thats rubbish for a start, as anyone who has flown out of LA knows all too well. Can't speak for Florida, but I imagine, judging by the amout of Class B airspace there that it is also very busy.

I learned in the US and came back to fly from a "busy" airport. Busy, my arse, they make you orbit when a 737 is on a 10 mile final, where as in the states you'll be "cleared to land, boeing 767 on a 2 mile final, you'll preceed him through the intersection". The differences are not so great really, probably took me a 2 hr checkout before they were happy to let me loose in their club planes.

Ok, got that out of the way :D. Depends what you want to do with your flying. I did a JAA PPL in the US and had no trouble flying in the UK. In the US, look to spend £300 on a return flight, and $40 per day on accomodation, about $80 per hour dual instruction in a C152, plus ground exam. Taking all this into account, assuming 50 hrs training and 4 weeks:-

$1120 accomodation
$525 flights
$4000 flight instruction
$75 ground exam
$300 flight test
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£3440 at todays exchange rate.

You will also have the benefit of being Au Fait with the FAA system, so if you choose to hour build / IR in the future, it'll be easy. You never know, you may decide to continue your FAA 'career', get CPL/IRd up, then convert....

Cheers
EA

[FlyingForFun]

Funkie,

Englishal is correct - there are lots of differences between the US and the UK, and some of these will need a little time to adjust to. But quiet vs busy airspace? There are very quiet parts of the both the UK and the US, and there are very busy parts of each, too.

FFF
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[JohnnyPharm]

Funkie

I may be wrong but you do still have day to day living expenses in the UK as well as the USA. Just because we live in the UK or even in our own homes doesn't mean we starve ourselves.

[M.85]

guys,
What do you mean by "busy"??
Of course Atlanta airport is busy..or LAX or whatever other major hub.
I think the difference between the US and UK is that in england, restricted SPACE is a factor.Many more different control zones,airfields within a very short distance.In the US..lots of room(uncontrolled airspace)between main airports.
I think its clear and easy or is my english that bad?:p

M.85

[Oneday78]

.........just been in discussions with school in England to propose the idea of me taking the PPL theory exams in the UK (at their club) and then going to the US to do the flying. As you can imagine they went on to describe the pros and cons of the US JAA scheme which consisted mainly of cons!……

Now of course I took this with a bucket of salt, (marketing to attract a prospective student) but they did point out that it may take up to 10 hours supervised flight before I could go solo once back in Britain?!. Due partly to the fact that US PPL students are not proficient in the use of radio and comms etc. and that if I was to go further then it would be better to have a British taught PPL.

My question is; do I need to take more or less salt with this assertion??.

PS. Those I spoke to were more than pleasant and did give me some good advice which I have seen on here. So..errr…keep up the good work.

[Funkie]

englishal, FFF and JohnnyPharm,

I agree that there is money to be saved by going to the States, and that living expenses are just as important here as they are in the US. I was emphasising the point of making sure that ALL costs are considered.

I’m prepared to suggest that a lot of training in the US is conducted in all that warm, dry and calm “uncontrolled airspace” - there’s enough of it and I’m sure it makes life easy. I wonder how much emphasis in put on: the use of carb-heat, ATC liaison both Civil and Military, flying in mountainous terrain (not much of that in middle America), icing conditions - etc… etc.

I’m not slating the FAA system, I’m sure it meets the needs of the American market well, but does it give the UK candidate the required knowledge about flying in the UK?

I’ve discussed training in the US against the UK with many different pilots, instructors and FTO’s, all of whom have said that if you wish to continue your training in the UK and obtain a JAA CPL/IR - the JAA PPL taught in the UK is by far and away the best, long term option.

But hey, who am I to suggest one way or the other. Make sure your happy with the system and you are aware of all the pro’s and con’s. Everyone will plan their training to suit their needs, and rightly so.

Funkie:ok:

[JohnnyPharm]

In hindsight I wish I had done my ppl in the UK. My instruction was not particularly good and the "guaranteed pass" is a total con.

When I came back to the UK I was totally ill prepared for flying here.

My PFL training in the USA was:- Instructor" Do you think you could make that field there if the engine cut?"

Me "Yes"

Instuctor "Good, lets do stalling now"

There was so many things missed out or glanced over I really felt it was a rip off and virtually had to start from the beggining when I got home. I actually felt embarassed the first few flights I had with my instructor. Three weeks is not long enough to absorb all the info and techniques, maybe having the ground exams in the bag first would have made a "3 week ppl" possible. Yes you get the bit of paper, but don't think you'll be let loose over blighty the minute you get home!!!

[englishal]

Seems like you had a problem with the quality of your training in the US. This is unacceptable, wherever it may be.

However, in general, the standard of flight training in the US is very good, and the potential cost saving benefits make it very worth while. If you go to a good school you will NOT need 10 hrs of dual flight in the UK to get into the system. The laws of physics don't change across the pond, and frankly the only major differences are airspace / RT issues, which are easily resolved by reading your airlaw book. If you can pass the JAA exams then you should have a good understanding of the UK airspace system.

Of course its up to you, but you think you're paying nearly £7000 in the UK, and at todays x rate, probably £3000 in the US. Allow 5 hrs transitional training in the UK and you'll be fine. Do a complex endorsement in this time if you want.......In general the JAA schools in the US are either in Florida or California, and you get plently of exposure to busy airspace (the whole of the LA basin is controlled airspace), so thats not a worry. You may have to liase with military controllers to get radar services through MOA's, but its really nothing particularly different to the UK (Who you are, where your are, what you want!). The weather is far less predictable in these parts of the US than you would believe, and there are plenty of times you need to make a go / no-go decision due to wx. You have the added feature of large mountains in the Western USA, which you'll never meet in the UK. Its good training, you learn a lot about mountain flying, density altitude, engine leaning etc. which is a good thing.

Anyway, goood luck !

Cheers
EA:D

[strafer]

just been in discussions with school in England..
Don't believe a word they say! There are only interested in your money, so won't necessarily tell you what's best for yourself.

At the end of the day, there's no right or wrong answer. As you can see by the posts above, opinion is fairly divided, but opinion is all it is. Personally, I agree with Englishal - I did the whole lot in Florida and don't regret it for a moment. (My 'UK familiarisation' training took 4 hours BTW).

[silverknapper]

My two bobs worth:

Given the time and money then I would do it in the UK, and preferably in the area you will do the CPL. However this isn't always possible - wasn't for me due to both constraints.
You seem in favour of the US. I would suggest South Africa however NOT to FTC for a JAA PPL - do a search! You only need an ICAO licence to begin commercial training and in any case converting is easy. Weather in SA is a good mix of cracking days but still interesting enough that your met reports matter. It is a cheap place to live, the scenery is fantastic and there are some cracking x countries to be had if you do some hour building. Go to a school on the coast such as 43 or Algoa.
Either way I agree that coming back here is fine. A couple of hours with an instructor and you'll be fine!!

SK

[Oneday78]

Thanks for the responses. All appreciated. So many options, they're slowly being whittled down.
It boils down to this….a question of timing/cost

Option 1;
Out to the US (will look at other nations etc), most likely to NAC to study for the JAA PPL. I would also try to get some written exams prior to departure (or at least study Thom books to get knowledge level up). Would be able to get the time off around April. Would not be able to get anymore time off work and may find it hard to do any real hour building in the year.

Option 2;
Considering taking the PPL in the UK. Starting now without taking any time off work. I realise that this (usually) costs more but would leave me the holiday time neccesary for hour building in the US later in the year (November).
Main attraction of this is that I will be slightly further down the APTL road at the start of next year, with new holiday etc……..

Would like to know if this make sense to anyone?. As I have a feeling that I may be shooting myself in the foot worrying about it like this as both ways are interchangeable with regards to hour building....I am under the impression that hour building UK style is (again) considerably more expensive than the US.
Please feel free to shoot as many holes in any of the ideas above. Its the reason I put this on here and any thoughts would be great.

[FlyingForFun]

Hour-building in the UK can be very cheap, depending how you do it.

The cheapest way, I believe, is as follows, although I've yet to meet or speak to anyone who's actually done this. Do your PPL, and make sure you get tail-wheel training either during or immediatley after your PPL. Then, start hunting around local airfields for shares for sale in single-seat PFA aircraft. To give you an idea of the cost, I've seen 1/12 shares in this type of aircraft go for less than £1,000. Then, hour-build to your hearts content. A typical cost of flying this type of aircraft would be around £10/hr and £15/month. Once you've got the hours you need, sell your share to get back your initial investment - unless you become hooked on open-cockpit flying at 70kts, of course, in which case you might decide to keep it!

If the idea of a single-seater doesn't appeal, then you can still get some cheap flying. I own a share in a Europa, which costs me around £35/hr and £50/month. It's a two-seater, which means you can get training on the type, so it's not so essential get the relevant differences training beforehand. I think you would have trouble beating this price, even in the US, if you are renting. (And you will certainly have trouble beating it when you consider that for that price I get a turbo-charged engine, variable pitch prop, retractable undercarriage, and a 120kt cruise.)

I would imagine that buying in your home country has to be much easier than going abroad to buy. In which case, from your two options, option 1 will suit my idea the best.

FFF
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[Oneday78]

FFF,

thanks for the reply. As always very informative. The idea of part owning seems quite appealing but I have a few questions on it:

1. How much did the intial share cost you?
2. How many in the group?
3. How often do you get to fly?.
4. How long (many hours) after the gaining of the PPL did you make the purchase of the share?
5. Does the price inlude maintainance - who provides, and if correct, Europa are kit planes…do you know who built it?.

Of course you don’t have to answer any, but I’m just curious (can PM me if you’d prefer). The questions above mainly come out of what would seem as increased responsibility of ownership….which I realise has added benefits (gaining a better technical insight into the machinery etc) as well as the obvious ones but I would like to know as much as possible before contemplating such an idea.

Thanks

[FlyingForFun]

Oneday,

All good questions, and not things which I mind discussing in public. It may be getting a little too specific for this thread, because obviously the exact numbers will vary from case to case, but since ballpark figures are useful for anyone considering the option, here goes:

1) £6500
2) 6
3) Most weekends, if I want to. Bookings are done on the internet, purely on a first-come first-served basis, with a maximum of 3 days block booking and a maximum of 2 weeks advanced booking to ensure fairness. Since the group is split quite nicely between retired people, shift workers and 9-5ers, availability tends to be very good
4) A little over 100 hours. (I actually did most of my hour-building before buying the share.) However, others in our group bought in with very few hours. The only rule the group imposes is that if the insurance premium is raised due to your low hours, you have to pay the increase.
5) Yes. We pay a fixed, dry hourly rate which includes all maintenance, as well as a contribution to an engine fund. The price I've given you includes this hourly rate, plus fuel.

The aircraft was built by two guys, who then kept one share each and sold off a further four. I know both of them, since they were both in the group when I joined. One of them has since sold his share, but still helps out with maintenance. In general, maintenance is looked after by the guys who did the building, but we all help out under their supervision

Feel free to ask any more questions you have. Flying this type of aircraft is completely different to the spam-cans which almost everyone does their PPL and hour-building in, and, although probably not relevant when it comes to getting a job, is a fantastic experience.

FFF
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