Dangerous locations

[safari suit]

Hi,

I have a serious question about the dangers of flying in Africa. I know of people who know of people who claim to have been shot at while flying around Africa. Is this a common occurence, and in what specific countries is this a problem. I fly in Australia, and couldn't believe it when I heard of planes being shot at in Africa.

Any feedback which could shed some light on the truth would be greatly appreciated. I notice my previous post on the same topic is no longer there - is there a reason why it was deleted?

Thanks

[George Tower]

I kind of suspect this poster of being a bit of bullsh1ter....apologies if you're not but your question seems somewhat spurious.

Off the top of my head I can think of three scenarios where non-military aircraft have been shot at

1. An Israeli charter flight to Kenya last year - Al Qaedi are active in East Africa as has been whitnessed by the attacks on US embassies in the late 90s and specific threats have been made to British Airways flights to Kenya in the non-too distant past.

2. Sudan civil war. There are doubtless many much more in the know than myself on this one but aircraft used by aid agencies have been fired on in the long running civil war. However its no more dangerous in my view than the work the aid agencies are doing in Afghanistan or Iraq.

3. In the Rhodesian civil war about thirty years ago two Viscounts were shot down by terrorists.

When I look at the situation that is now developing in the US, UK and indeed Australia where so called "Sky-Marshalls" will be carried on flights I have a pretty good idea that the risk to aviation is far higher in Europe, America, and Australasia than it is here in Africa.

Just my two cents worth.

GT

[chuks]

As to Nigeria, it has not been uncommon in the morning to find spent rounds lying in the hangar or out on the ramp (7.65 and 9 mm.) with the odd hole in this or that parked aircraft (Twin Otter flap, for example). Then a helicopter operating in the Niger Delta at low level had a bullet pass through an element of the horizontal tail, right on a line with the crews' heads. So that would have been a matter of timing to hit the tail and not the crew....

For fixed-wing aircraft the risk is fairly low at the moment, I think, given that they don't spend much time in range of small-arms fire, which is all we worry about at the moment.

On the other hand, just travelling around can be a bit risky, given the locals' lack of restraint when it comes to playing with guns. It isn't the bullet with your name on it but the one addressed 'To whom it may concern....'

And did you see the item about that French reporter somewhere up the West Coast who ended up dead at the hands of some local policeman when a government minister had told the cop to 'get rid' of the reporter, meaning just to chase him away? Oops!

In short, the West African risk environment is quite different to what you are probably used to back in Oz.

[Xshongololo]

People do get shot at when flying in Africa.
It is a relatively rare event....I am presuming most bullets miss.
I dont know about West Africa but I do know of people being shot at in...
1. NE Kenya
2. Angola
3. S. Sudan
4. Somalia

I am sure there are a couple more.....
I might add that I know more people who have been shot at
in South Africa than any other country but they were in their cars
or at home...
Xshong

[safari suit]

I don't wish to encourage inexperienced pilots to go in search of work in dangerous areas, but I've heard that you can get a job flying a small twin with low time hours (CPL MEIR 250tt) in these places. Is this true?

Thanks

[bigmanatc]

I`ve been shot at in Mozambique....near the SA border...missed me but the Be90 behind me got its fuel tanks punctured with about 5 holes......this was some years ago....dunno if it still happens......we were flying some road engineers around to survey the area for a road to be built.....

[Amabokoboko]

Safari suit,

The reason that your previous post was deleted was (I assume) because it was outrageously irresponsible. You came on with the gung ho tone of, "Need some action, where is it hectic?"

You've been a lot more subtle this time which shows some brains on your part. Use them lad! I will repeat the advice given to you last time:

1) "Search around for info on the Aussie who lost a leg on a landmine" Learn something from that.

2) "Best way to handle firing on a/c is to fly military hardware with the proper training."

3,4 & 5) "Grow up" "Grow up" "Grow up".

The line of your questioning is ghoulish at best, irresponsible at worst. Particularly as you seem to be angling for a low hours twin job with danger pay that is so hectic no one else wants.

Is life in Aus so bad, now that you guys have been beaten by the Indians and the Brits in your two national sports?

[safari suit]

Amabokoboko,

I know you mean well, but how is one to get a start in this industry without taking a few risks. If someone wishes to eventually have the experience and qualifications desired by the airlines before they are too old (under 35 lets say), actions like this seem understandable in my humble opinion.

However, I appreciate your perspective.

[petesevenseven]

I was flying into Bunia some months ago. I am sure I got a shot or two fired at me. I may ave taken one hit but I am not sure. The exhaust developed a hole. Then the hot exhaust burnt a big hole in the cowl. There was a patch where the hole happened so that could have just been corroded. I just wonder if initially a bullet hit it. But thats pure outrageous speculation and I will ever know.

The first flight I did there was the day after a Sabreliner was hit at the same place. The right engine blew up and they diverted to Entebbe. I belive though they had someone on board of "high interest" to the rebels.

I know some French Hercs got hit there also. And a French chopper.

Safari I dont know why the others have given you a blast, I did not read your last post. I hope this post does not offend them in the same way. Just posting te facts I know.

Cheers all.

Oops. This post is actually by HELLDOG. By sheer chance I am using the same computer in the interet cafe as petesevenseven. Did you forget to log off you wally? By the way thanks for letting me stay in your house mate:ok:

[George Tower]

Quote: "I don't wish to encourage inexperienced pilots to go in search of work in dangerous areas, but I've heard that you can get a job flying a small twin with low time hours (CPL MEIR 250tt) in these places. Is this true?"

Who the bloody hell do you think you are?

1. Why should you encourage fellow pilots to do anything - we're all free human beings to pick and choose to do what we damn well like and I'm pretty sure that if they have enough knowledge to pass CPL/ATPL exams then they are capable of thinking for themselves and are thus able to make a decision about where they choose to work. Unless you have actually been to Africa and lived and worked here I think that you should keep your trap shut with regard to informing other pilots about what it's like here.

2. Do you have a problem with people with 250 hours? If you have a brain - i doubt it being an Australian - you'll know that the recruitment of pilots is driven by many factors (supply and demand, who you know, whether your face fits etc) but the fact is that in the UK we have had 250 hour F/Os flying for BA, Thomas Cook and EasyJet as I have friends who have done that. The safety of all these carriers is top notch. So I don't think that you need to sound so incredulous about the fact that its conceivable that someone could have a job flying a small twin with 250hours.

[Amabokoboko]

Okay, ss. Just be careful, lad. And remember, you're someone's son. No job is worth the price you seem willing to pay. Good luck.

[V1 Rotate]

Maybe he craves danger 'cause he was dangled in front of a hungry croc when he was one month old (like some other Stralians)
V1 :cool:

[Cardinal Puff]

Take a seat in the shade with a cold one and watch that blood pressure, boet. Saf suit sounds like any other keen young bloke full of p!ss and vinegar.

Thing is, though, that the airlines I know are not overly keen on employing some gung ho lunatic with his hair on fire and a mad gleam in the eye. They seem to prefer the level headed calculating type who does things by the book. Also, it's no fun being shot at/bombed/taken hostage/ anything else to ruin your day so you can lose the idea right now that it's worthwhile to go through that for a few hours of flight time. Your situation is understandable but rest assured in the long run you'll be better off as an employable pilot without scars or a nervous twitch.

Do things by the book, get into a company doing relief work or freight and avoid the dodgy fly by night operators running bad kit.

[George Tower]

Sorry fellas

CP etal, Im just a bit stressed today - I think anywhere close to me would have been a dangerous location.

(to cut a long story short the my bank manager told me he would fund the remainder of my ATPL and the option of a type rating but told me that due to a minor technicality he couldn't do it- hence our antipodean friend Safari Suit copped it)

[Cardinal Puff]

No sweat boet.

Bankers are a breed apart. What other business is allowed to sell something it doesn't own (up to eight times the value of actual assets) and then screws the customers till they bleed while telling them what a big favour is being inflicted on them.

All I can say is PAH!!:mad:

[alexmcfire]

Hmm, heard that Sabena quit flying to Burundi when it was shot at during landing, during it´s haydays as the last Western carrier to leave a danger spot and first in.

[Gouabafla]

Safari Suit. I'll try and be polite and reasonable, but you need to realise that your post came across as pretty unpleasant - to my ears at least. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't trying to be a pain.

Yes, aeroplanes do sometimes get shot at at certain places in Africa. And you know what, people on the ground get shot at, too. But people on the ground tend to be closer to the guns and don't move as quickly as aircraft, so when they get shot at they often get hit.

I know lots of people with bullet scars, I've got friends living in refugee camps because they are scared to return to their villages and I know some sweet Western kids who sometimes don't sleep too well - but who can recognise the sound of an AK in the distance.

Africa isn't all like this by any means, but there are a lot of bad guys out there with guns doing bad things. And while this touches the aviation industry to some extent, it touches people on the ground far more.

Hey, if you are up for adventure and you want to build your hours, go for it. I hope it works out. But remember, those people you see on the TV news bulletins - the ones fleeing the latest fighting - some of us call those guys friends.

[Cardinal Puff]

A friend was meant to be going to Europe for a holiday the day the A330 took some rounds on final approach. The incident screwed up her plans somewhat as the A/C had to be ferried back to NBO then on to Belg a week later. The damage was done with 5.56mm ammo which is pretty unusual in an area infested with AKs. A hostie and a Bus class pax were injured and a round just missed the PIC, passing behind him into a fixture. Saw the damage when the ferry crew and assorted engineers came out to inspect aircraft as the dingleberry in charge of the airport cops used to have kittens if you so much as walked too close to another A/C on the apron. Paranoid sod spent his whole life trying to make this mazungu miserable, while said mazungu just went to yacht club and got ratted, leaving him to froth and fizz. Hope he's got an ulcer from the stress he lived with.:E

Ya gotta take the rough with the smooth, saf suit. No one to hold your hand in Africa so if you're not prepared to be treated as the lowest form of life, best you go get that airline job. The flying is well worth it but the risks and sacrifices can sometimes get a bit much. You spend long periods away from family and friends and the little solace to be had from earning USD is now sadly no longer the case.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[Metro man]

As you still seem to be interested ,I will give you some more information. The danger jobs can broadly speaking be divided into two areas :

1.Illegitimate .Typically flying arms around in a war zone. Highly dangerous and usually well paid US$10 000 quite possible.Normally suited to ex military due to the required skills eg.Low level night ,radar avoidence ,combat approaches etc. Expect no help if caught ,chances of death or serious injury quite high. You would need contacts and recomendations to get a look in.Examples would include flying a C130 for UNITA during the Angolan war ,or flying arms to the Contras in Nicaragua using CASA 212s.

2 Legitimate. Typically flying aid agency staff around where ground travel is too dangerous or impractical. Still hazardous as you can be shot at with anything from small arms to heat seeking missiles, and there are land mines around. Pay very variable and not what it used to be.Captains can do okay ,you may be surprised how little co pilots earn.Companies such as Ross Air and Zimex specialise in this kind of work supplying crews and aircraft to the UN and Red Cross ,anything from a Pilatus Porter to a Herc, but normally King Air/Twin Otter size.

If you are going to do this make sure you have back up if things go wrong ie. I would rather have the UN trying to secure my release if taken hostage than a small charter company.It has happened !

Medical evacuation + compensation if injured is essential, read the fine print very carefully.

Why don't you try and get a job in a safe place, build you hours up and earn the big bucks from your skills and experience rather than being in danger ?;)

[SASless]

Crikey....it was dangerous enough to be in a 212 with Fumes after one of his runs ashore....getting shot at would be a minor thing compared to that.;)

[Will Rogers]

Don't forget:

1) The civilian Learjet 35 that was shot down over Ethiopia a few years back.

2) The UN King Air (Operated by a Danish company I think) where the first officer was killed by a bullet that penetrated the floor of the cockpit... This also a few years back.

Hmm...

Stay safe out there!

Will

[Kiwi Flyer]

also the father and son shot down in two seperate Hercs going into Luanda in 1999.

On the lighter side, I remember two kids on the roof of a shack, trying to throw stones at me on short finals....nice try!!!

KF

[flyhardmo]

Well the danger in africa isnt always flying.Last week someone broke into our pilots house while we were flying, then we must have come home and this bloke hid in an empty room and apparently spent the night in between our bedrooms with an 8 in knife. The next day when we were flying he got out. How did we know some one broke in. Well the next day when the maid was cleaning she found that someone took a dump in the room and the missing knife from the day before was in there. Also lots of money went missing.
Not for the faint hearted
Africa Wins Again

[helldog]

mo. Did you get my e-mail? I dont know why there is a problem there. It saw you miss out on Vegemite once already. Try and e-mail me you a*se bandit.

Cheers

[flyhardmo]

Hey Helldog AKA sergio
Man ive tried to send u a persomal Im but im not sure if u got it. Been trying to get ur email off hans but he is too lazy to write back unless its abuse.Send me an email on my hotmail account i will definately get it then. Till then, take it sleazy
mo

[AfricanSkies]

Airquarius operate Fokker F28's in Africa and Afghanistan. They've done jobs in Congo, Nigeria, Tanzania, Malabo, Kenya, Mozambique, Libya, etc.

[Vref + 10]

Having read this post and subsequent replies it really blows my mind that someone out there wants to get shot. Been there done that, tee shirts, soiled pants etc and seen good guys going down in huge ugly balls of flame still gives me bad dreams. My tickies worth; if you have to fly anywhere near these places stay at least 3000 ft, agl, 12000agl for the dreaded SAM 7 and and even higher fl450 ( thats where I skulk around now!). Africa for the Africans !!!

[helldog]

In attacking the young tiger that started the topic, some may have missed a point or two. Sure not many people out there want to get shot at. But there are many good men out there flying in places where they could well be shot at. Making the lives of others better. These jobs do exist. I just want to make sure that we are not at the same time infering that the guys in these jobs are all stupid nutters. We seem to be assuming here that to take these jobs you have to be stupid or very foolish! Dont forget it also takes dedication and determination. Ugly work but someone has to do it. What about doctors and other aid workers, preists etc that get dropped in on these flights. Its worse for them they have to stay in those dangerous places. Are they all fools for stepping into harms way to help others? Just presenting another angle here, not having a dig at anyone.

[Cardinal Puff]

Yep, that's about the long and the short of it!

Only three types of expat found in Africa - missionaries, mercenaries and misfits. Which one are you?:E

[mini]

SSuit,

I hope you pick up on the important bits in this thread.

Firstly "dangerous" flying isn't restricted to Africa (Iraq hasn't been too pleasent lately, and I can remember an incident in the Balkans a few years ago that resulted in C-130 Pax being instructed to sit on their body armour rather than wear it...)

Secondly, from my experience (not a pilot, but I do a lot of related stuff in these types of places) the guys with hours are much preferred, both by the a/c owners and the users, this is no reflection on the ability of a low hours driver, just that when you have a choice, given the environment, you tend to go for experience, your priority is safety.

Thirdly, I think its a fair assessment that everyone wishes you the best whatever route you take!

Safe Flying

:ok: