BA Restructuring Plans

[Shaman]

Was in the coffee shop in Waterworld on Friday with two female companions who decided that they would speak in French for 15 minutes to tune up their ears before going on holiday. The only free seats were next to two men who stopped talking when we sat down. They must have decided that we were all French, assuming that I could not get a word in, and continued their conversation. This is what I believe BA is planning.

All LH flying to be done by mainline pilots.

All SH flying to be reorganised with SH pilots maintaining their current seats*.

*All SH captains above pay point 16 required to bid for LH.

Any LH captains displaced required to bid for SH to maintain capt pay or change seats but on FO pay.

LHR and LGW work to be 'combined'.

All SH eastern European work to be transferred to BMed - see note 1.

All remaining European work to be transferred to GB Airways - see note 1..

All domestic work to be done by BACX - see note 1.

Note 1.

SH BA pilots to remain in their seats with their BA pay - capped at pp16 but to be scheduled iaw the respective airline's sched rules and with their allowance system.

Note 2. Commands currently held by BMed/GB/BACX pilots to be reserved exclusively for those pilots - the remainder (and any growth) to be made available to BA pilots.

[Brakes...beer]

I love a good rumour. So what are the GB & BMEd allowances, anybody?

[Flightrider]

There is apparently an announcement due on Tuesday about restructuring of Gatwick and BA CitiExpress in particular.

[hostie]

This sounds about right

The plans to combine LHR and LGW have been around for ages, it's only the LHR unions blocking it that have stopped it so far.

As a crew member that has to drive past LHR to go to LGW to get a bus from LGW to LHR to operate a LHR flight, (which is then classed as 4 sector rather than 2 sector because of the bus, severly restricting the routes we can operate)
I am very interested in combining the two airports

It does seem an awful waste of resources to have trained crew that cannnot operate direct from another airport

[Jet II]

I'd heard the one about all shorthaul going to GB some months ago (similar to the one last year where it was all going to CitiExpress:confused: ) - but the way I heard it was that GB took a detailed look at the operation and turned it down for some reason??

[Man Flex]

Note 2. Commands currently held by BMed/GB/BACX pilots to be reserved exclusively for those pilots - the remainder (and any growth) to be made available to BA pilots.

I think the GB/BMed Balpa company councils may have something to say about this. Do you really think this can be agreed without the consent of the pilots in these franchise companies?

If this rumour is true then the BACC believe they can get away with murder.

[peeteechase]

If true it seems false economy to move a whole load of guys into fleets and lifestyles they will hate.
Maybe its the start of BEA and BOAC again?

ATB, ptc

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

The very nature of this is that it is a 'rumour network', and therefore you have to take everything here with some degree of scepticism. However, I am inclined to think there may be something in this. The bottom line is that the BACC cannot arbitrarily anounce to GB, BMed or anyone else how things will be. I am sure the folks at BA will have noticed that they are in dire straits and a job with BA is not what it once was.

Any rationalisation of the BA SH operation which inolves GB taking over the running of things is not a case of BA absorbing GB. Therefore GB pilots will not be 'just grateful to have a job' and giving a big thanks to BA for their kind interest in the copmany. There is no way that GB pilots will sit back and let their CC negotiate some naff deal whereby the FOs are shoved to the bottom of a seniority list somewhere. Should some deal be reached with BA, there will be a lot of water to flow under the bridge regarding terms and conditions. Nothing has been agreed among the pilots yet, and therefore the assumptions being made regarding future deals are at best premature.

[BikerMark]

Surely the most telling remark was at the start of the thread:

"only two free seats in the Wallyworld coffee shop" :rolleyes:

The lesson is obvious...

[cirrus01]

Also very telling is the assumpation (arrogance) that those who speak French could not possibly understand English....... Did you not get a look at their passes and so hint as to identitys ???

[BRISTOLRE]

Bussing between LGW & LHR is going to be fun due the new roadworks starting today J12-J15 then!!! loads of fun for two years there then...

[EICAS-GP]

Man Flex

Your final comment:-
"If this rumour is true then the BACC believe they can get away with murder"

That is exactly what they have done to GSS - watch out!

[Blackball]

To say nothing of EOG/SHAG, but then they do consider themselves above all!!

[Cornflake]

If all shorthaul Eastern European work to be done by BMed, and all 'remaining' European work is to be done by GB; then what, exactly, is left for BACX except the shuttle (:} ) and one or two domestic routes.

Time to bend over, and recite as follows methinks..."For what we about to receive"
(pass the vaseline again-waddaya mean, it's run out)
"may we be truly truly thankful for the wisdom and benevolence of our management, and the support and good wishes of our 'colleagues' in mainline". :{

[Man Flex]

Don't worry too much Cornflake. The latest turn of events with regard to terrorist threats and airport security will have such an adverse effect on BA that they will probably have to re-think their plans all over again.

For example; no-one wants to fly BA to the US (or anywhere else) due to the fact that they are the one British airline that have been identified as an Al Queda target. Losses too much to contend with and BA go into receivership. All franchise partners and subsidiaries make a bid for freedom and reform together as the 'United Airlines of Great Britain'. BA pilots are welcomed into new company as junior F/Os at the bottom of the seniority list.

And they all lived happily ever after.

[antonovman]

and Man Flex rubs his hands in glee
how sad

[MAGIC2]

Norman Stanley Fletcher writes
"BA CC cannot arbitarily announce to GB, BMED or anyone else how things will be"

They have done exactly that with the employment protection agreement . The BA pilots fears of BA pilot jobs and commands being lost to GB crews, have for the moment been satisfied . (Algeria). As it stands there will be little or no growth at GB compared to the past , what is the position on the airframe options they have ?
Very little growth at GB equates to very few new commands . The only seniority list a GB pilot should be worried about is the bottom of the GB one , and what is going to happen when the Franchise is to be renegotiated (GSS?).

I suggest you get your CC working with the BA CC , otherwise you will become further and further marginalised .

[maxy101]

Manflex I look forward to a payrise and some decent management.....looks like presently serving BA F/o's can only win if BA goes to the wall...

[Man Flex]

MAGIC2,

"employment protection agreement".

Could you expand on this a little more for those of us who are in ignorance?

maxy101,

All I am trying to suggest is that there is a lot of bitterness and animosity from pilots outside of BA mainline who have seen the BACC dictate their futures for the benefit of BA pilots. I think the disgruntlement stems from the amount of power that the BACC are allowed to weald.

And no it has nothing to do with 'having an inferiority complex'.

[HOVIS]

Manflex; "For example; no-one wants to fly BA to the US (or anywhere else) due to the fact that they are the one British airline that have been identified as an Al Queda target."

That will be why I can't get a staff ticket to the 'States then! :D

[ETOPS]

Have heard just now that the BACC have cancelled the General members meetings at BHX/LGW/LHR scheduled for next week pending the "big" announcement by BA on the 23rd of January.

[propaganda]

For those time travellers amongst us,on the 23/1/04 turn your clocks back 30 years. AKA BEA/BOAC......:mad:

[Angus Meecoat]

Whatever announcements are due the sharks in the "City" have obviously got wind of some news they like.
BA shares up 18p just this morning to 260p, highest they have been for a couple of years I would suggest.

[Super Stall]

Nothing to do with yesterday's traffic figures then. ;)

[GOBWX]

Still if the unions keep blocking everything at some stage or another the entire empire will collaspe and well all be out of a job!!!!!


hmmmm i know what id rather,

So lets crack on sort this :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: out and then we can get on with our lives and do what we are paid to do....

Providing a service to the public!!!!

'Cause with out them our pockets dont get lined and we all form an orderley que at the employment offices!!!!


need i say more

nah didnt think so

WX

[Carnage Matey!]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!:D :D :D :D This has to be the best unsubstantiated, totally implausible tosh I've seen on pprune in ages!:p Yet still the 'usual suspects' of anti-BA propagandists emerge to denounce the so-called strategy. Apart from the fact that there's virtually nothing in that plan which benefits BA pilots and the BACC would have to be stark raving bonkers to even countenance agreeing to it, lets examine some of the better reasons why this 'plan' is garbage:

All LH flying to be done by mainline pilots
Great idea, but as BMed have a legally binding contract protecting their operation this can't be done.

All SH flying to be reorganised with SH pilots maintaining their current seats*.

*All SH captains above pay point 16 required to bid for LH.

Any LH captains displaced .......

Reorganised how precisely? If all pp16 SH Capts bid for LH there wouldn't be enough vacancies to go round. Plus we'd lose most trainers and all our fleet management (maybe thats not so bad). Besides, you can't 'displace' a LH Capt from his position by bidding, so thats a non-starter.

LHR and LGW work to be 'combined'.

Well BACC would love this, but LHR work to Bidline and LGW work to Carmen and you can't cross-roster. Also LGW is exclusively 737, LHR is predominantly Airbus. Dual basing aircraft would be extremely complex and costly.

All SH eastern European work to be transferred to BMed

BMed only have a handful of aircraft. Whilst they're carrying on with their legally contracted long haul work, where will they find the aircraft to operate a daily St. Petersburg, Kiev, Bucharest, Sofia, Belgrade, double-daily Moscow and quadruple daily Warsaw and Budapest? Not to mention Riga.

All remaining European work to be transferred to GB Airways

And where will GB get fifty Airbusses in a hurry?

All domestic work to be done by BACX

What, on their 16 RJ100s? How will those cope with an hourly shuttle to MAN, EDI and GLA, not to mention the NCL and ABZ services?


This whole plan is absolute, unspeakable nonsense! It seems to revolve around the fact that somehow BA can 'give away' their entire fleet of shorthaul aircraft divvying it up between BACX, GB and BMed, and that those operators can rapidly absorb a vast quantity of aircraft and crew them whilst relying on a shell of BA ground staff to run the operation at LHR T1. There is also the implicit assumption that BA pilots will follow the aircraft and willingly sign a contract which changes their terms and conditions to those of whichever of the three other companies they happen to be randomly assigned to! Fear not franchise colleagues, I've seen some b0ll0cks on this forum recently but this really is in a league of its own!

[Shaman]

All LH flying to be done by mainline pilots
Great idea, but as BMed have a legally binding contract protecting their operation this can't be done.

***I believe that what was referred to was 'long' LH, not the BMed op.

All SH flying to be reorganised with SH pilots maintaining their current seats*.

*All SH captains above pay point 16 required to bid for LH.

Any LH captains displaced .......

Reorganised how precisely? If all pp16 SH Capts bid for LH there wouldn't be enough vacancies to go round. Plus we'd lose most trainers and all our fleet management (maybe thats not so bad). Besides, you can't 'displace' a LH Capt from his position by bidding, so thats a non-starter.

***At the moment P1s cannot be displaced but it will be a requirement as pasrt of the cost savings demanded of the pilots.

LHR and LGW work to be 'combined'.

***Combining meant combining all, I say again, ALL, SH work . BA SH, GB, BMed and BACX.

There will be a transition period whilst BMed GB and BACX set up their processes to enable them to integrate the soon to be ex BA a/c and the crews who will be transferred with them. Lots of BA pilots wish to keep their jobs and will be quite happy with the plans.

[Quidnunc]

Instead of all this second rate guesswork, why not just wait until the announcement is made?

[Carnage Matey!]

Sorry Shaman but its still a load of garbage. BMed work is 'long' long haul. Its further to Ethiopia than it is to Nigeria or the Middle East. BMed is not a short haul operation in any sense. Even their shortest routes match the length of some of our long haul routes. Which leads nicely to your next suggestion that short haul work for BA, BACX, GB and BMed is to be combined. Well as I just explained, BMed aren't short haul in any sense. Furthermore, like BMed, GB have a legally binding contract which BA cannot overturn in order to combine the businesses. GB have made it quite clear they wish to carry on as a franchise and do not wish to be subsumed into BA and there's nothing BA can do about that other than to buy them out of their contract at huge expense. Quite how do you define 'combining' the work when what you're actually suggesting is splitting the work between three seperate and distinct compannies. The plan actually contradicts itself!

***At the moment P1s cannot be displaced but it will be a requirement as pasrt of the cost savings demanded of the pilots

There will be a transition period whilst BMed GB and BACX set up their processes to enable them to integrate the soon to be ex BA a/c and the crews who will be transferred with them. Lots of BA pilots wish to keep their jobs and will be quite happy with the plans.

Now these two points represent nothing less than wholesale, unnegotiated, massive changes to each pilots contract of employment. Notwithstanding the fact that BA cannot implement this without the agreement of individual contract holders, do you for one moment believe that BA pilots would vote for a scheme which robs LH pilots of their commands, forces senior SH Captains to go to LH against their wishes then divides the entire shorthaul operation (737,757,767,Airbus) into three seperate companies (BACX, GB and BMed) with differing pay and conditions? Dream on. No BA pilot would be happy with those plans. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Even if this whole thread wasn't ludicrous enough, what you fail to point out is that this grandiose scheme wouldn't actually do anything to reduce the overheads which are the true problem within BA. It still leaves all the Waterworld dead wood, the militant loaders and drivers, and the cabin crew (who sure as hell won't agree to that), but just loads an extra level of administration and management into the smaller companies. I suggest if you want sensible plans you'd more success writing the grafitti on the back of the bog doors in Compass centre.

[bealine]

According to www.crewcom.co.uk , Rod Eddington's dog and his children were recently despatched to Perth, Western Australia.

Coupled with the fact the share price has suddenly risen dramatically, this is causing all sorts of speculation.

Can anyone elaborate?

[Chronic Snoozer]

Perth, WA, as well as sharing its name with a well-known Scottish city, is a bonza place with hardly ever a cloud in the sky, an affable population, was the venue for an America's cup defence, is one of the most isolated capital cities in the world and home to some fair dinkum brill micro-breweries.

Rod's got the right idea.

Elaborate enuff? :ok:

[HOVIS]

Carnage Matey.

Well BACC would love this, but LHR work to Bidline and LGW work to Carmen and you can't cross-roster. Also LGW is exclusively 737, LHR is predominantly Airbus. Dual basing aircraft would be extremely complex and costly.

So the rumours of bidding for A319 routes out of LGW and that 737s are to be sent back to the regions is cobblers as well then?:confused:

[redsnail]

I thought Rod Eddington's from Perth, WA.? Maybe he's just sent the kids to see their grandma? Perth in January would be very nice. :D

[Carnage Matey!]

Hovis

The A319 is going to LGW as a replacement for the 737s. Even with the most optimistic planning the first three won't start arriving before fourth quarter this year. There's nothing new in that. When the Airbus fleet at LGW becomes sizeable around 2005/2006 then BA will have the opportunity to develop a common base with LHR, but they'll have to grasp the nettle and roster the LGW guys the same way as the LHR guys, something which they are currently unwilling to do. The 737s might end up in the regions eventually (they should never have left), but they'll be being flown by BA mainline crews if they are.

Bealine

I wouldn't attach any credence to the Rod rumour. First it was his dog sent home. Two weeks later everyone thinks his children went too. Next week they'll be saying Rod went with them. This sounds rather like the 'absolute, 100% confirmed fact by groundstaff' rumour that Rod went to Hong Kong when the ground staff walked out, only for it to be revealed he was in Compass centre all along!

[Red Comet]

Time for a new rumour:
How about January 23rd as an anouncement date?

[sickBocks]

Well Jan 23rd is a Friday - what time's the announcement - 16:59? That'll give people time to cool down over the weekend without making phone calls.

[Lucky Strike]

Text message #1 received earlier this week:

"Due to possible major announcement by BA on 23rd Jan, GMMs postponed. Please see forum for further details. BALPA"

Sender: Mobmsgc.com


Text message #2 received shortly after was words to the effect (I can't remember the exact wording since I deleted the message):

The message you received from BALPA earlier was sent to you by mistake. Please ignore

[Marty-Party]

Carnage Matey!

Agreed that the rumours could well be untrue - but don't forget that this is the "Rumours & News" forum!

[Captain Airclues]

I would like to congratulate Shaman on his hearing and memory. To overhear an entire conversation in a Waterside cafe, while two ladies chatter away in French, and then to remember every detail is truly commendable.

Airclues

[Roobarb]

I find it very difficult to believe that a major announcement would come on a Friday. Most of the Waterworlders would have left for the weekend on Thursday to avoid the rush. That’s if don’t ‘work’ from home?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/roobarb/images/100/roobarb_2.jpg

[luke77]

They do not work from home as they would miss their Feng Shui meetings for which rooms are booked!

Though it`s not good Feng to meet on a Friday!

;)

[Shaman]

<<......they wish to carry on as a franchise and do not wish to be subsumed into BA ....>>

Sorry, if I gave the impression that the work was to ne subsumed into BA.

What is proposed - I am informed - is rather than the Franchisees' work being subsumed into BA, the opposite is to take place. BA SH (and MH) work is to be reorganised with the work farmed out to the Franchisees as described previously with only the BA pilots being seconded to the Franchisees.

The high cost of the BA SH operation is not due to the cost of the pilots but due to the cost of the cabin crew and ground staff. The Franchisees have said that it will take them 12months to train enough staff of their own and set up improved scheduling systems so Summer 05 will be the date by which all this happens.

[Hot Wings]

Carnage Matey - regarding Rod in HK during the groundstaff walk-out, he flew out and back on CX (better product?!) and walked past me on the Sunday afternoon - outside Dan Ryan's in Pacific Place. I didn't see his dog but he did have his wife with him!!!!

[HZ123]

Sharman; Since when has the ramp / cabin brew been the high cost source and flt crew deemed as competitively priced. All three units combine to make the Euro routes costly besides which the rapid and competitive growth of the LCs has caused huge fiscal problems for all Euro short haul operators ex LHR.

[TopBunk]

HZ123

You really should pay more attention to what is going on.

A process started pre 911 and was temporarily halted post 911 before being concluded and implemented early last year whereby the BA pilots total packages were benchmarked against LH, KLM and AF. This delivers to the company equivalent salary levels against our major, full service European competitors. I hasten to add that the company gains by virtue of better productivity from BA pilots varying well into double-digits in percentage terms.

Meanwhile this benchmarking has not been conducted elsewhere, and it is those areas where the terms and conditions and numbers are WELL above industry standard.

As part of the benchmarking process, BALPA determined the number of employees per aircraft and the number of employees per pilot in comparison to LH etc, who have very similar fleet portfolios, and demonstrated to management that BA was overmanned by about 20,000. Some of those have now gone, but much more is needed. OK, some of the BA excesses are due to LHR (BA is the UK's 2nd biggest bus operator, for example), but many working practises need to be brought into the late 20th let alone the 21st Century. Areas that need urgent attention are certainly Cabin Crew and MT (Drivers) and no doubt that black hole aka baggage handling is also right up there. That's on the front-line, as to the back room staff, I know less specifics but could well imagine that a thorough spring clean is needed.

As to Flight Crew, no doubt the company have their wish list for us, but overall at Board level they have no real issues with us.

[HZ123]

Thanks for that. There are problems in trying to achieve CC and Ramp cuts. Ramp has for some time been short staffed and subsequent on-line recruitment has failed to obtain the numbers of new contract ramp staff, due in the main to the pay levels offered which are now lower than Aviance / OCS.

Ideally the unit would be best outsourced but I could not see a company large enough or with the experience to take on BA ramp activities. As regard to MT I think you will find there that also it is under resourced and they have failed in the past to recruit staff as the new contract rates are less than many LHR based coaching groups.

One other issue is that even with the ground service package outsourced BA will be required to provide the equipment and logistics and some cases of previous outsourcing the end result has been worst service and greater costs. For example I am reliably informed that our motor vehicle service contract costs a minimum of £1000 per annum plus actual costs per service / repair and this charge is on a Ford Fiesta and the sum rises with the vehicle type.

CC are recruiting 750 staff at present with a basic of £9800 plus allowances which means if they end up on shorthaul there will not be a great deal of those.

I would tend to agree with you that we may be seen to franchise more Euro routes and concentrate on Eastern block and the newer former soviet states that offer good returns for the immediate future.

[Skylion]

Benchmarking total packages against LH, AF,- ie old established European carriers may be interesting, but these airlines also have enormous cost problems. The challenge is coming from the low cost carriers, especially in Europe . They continue to expand, open up new routes, especially from the UK provinces, while BA contracts into its Heathrow heartland.
Most of BAs costs ,- and those include remuneration/productivity relationships,- render it vulnerable and thats true of pilots just as much as cabin crew , ground staff and management . No one group can say " Its them, not us". All BA folk are in the current situation together.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Skylion,

The second P in PPRuNe stands for pilots. Perhaps having costs stand in comparison to the LCC's frightens the denizens of Waterworld far more than those on the flightdeck. Comes under the heading of far too difficult or, for the deeply cynical, turkeys voting for Christmas.

Regards
Rob

[Diesel]

If BA were to pass all SH flying to its franchise partners this would leave an awful lot of staff based LHR with no job i.e. redundant. BA has no real interest in paying redundancy (trying to preserve its cash pile) and no enthusiasm for dealing with the inevitable conflict with its staff unions. Can't really imagine BA has the stomach for quite such a reorganisation.

Could always be wrong though.....

[loaded1]

Skylion, BA's longhaul pilots are working to the legal limits already: the list of people on the status sheet each month who are up on the rolling 900 hour limit runs into pages - the productivity issue is not there in LH.

As to shorthaul the fundamental issue is whether the integrated network carrier has any future at all. Without shorthaul feed a lonhaul network carrier can not survive and yet the shorthaul network that feeds longhaul at a main hub is INEVITABLY inefficient in terms of daily aircraft utilisation compared to the point to point model of the lo cost carrier.

The reasons for this are fairly obvious - interline baggage, turnaround times where aircraft need catering, fitting the arrival times of the waves of incoming SH aircraft to provide realistic integrations with the Longhual services, nighstopping aircraft at European outstations to facilitate the interline connections etc etc.

BA SH pilots are not unproductive in terms of DUTY hours and at, in the LGW case, often 750 + flying hours per year not that inefficient compared to the lo costers in terms of flight hours, (or stick time as the Americans say), either. On a personal note I dont think I could physically cope with a 30 year career of over 750 hours SH flying a year anyway.

It is notable that many BA shorthaul pilots earn less than they would at an equivalent seniority in a lo cost carrier.

I think Ed Roddington has it when he says the "elephant in BA's row boat" is the 4.8 Billion of debt incurred by Robert A@ling. Compared to a cashflow positive company from interest on money at the bank like Ryanair, BA is slowly drowning in interest repayments.

There are, I suggest, very real isssues of Corporate Governance that allowed a Board of Directors to act with such impunity as far as shareholder value is concerned. I doubt very much that they will ever be addressed

The only solution appears to be the "run the production line faster and blame the workers", so often the way with British Industry over the years.

One thing is for sure, BA's LH network will not exist without shorthaul feed. I doubt that costs could be taken far below what is already achieved at operations like the Gatwick shorthaul network, at least on the pilot pay and productivity side, in an open market. The issue has to be either a restructuring of the debt or the end of a British integrated network carrier. Perhaps the latter course is the discipline of the market at work, but I and my pilot colleagues didn't create the overdraft.

[Kurtz]

Now that has to be the simplest, most accurate, broad-brush, 'big picture' assessment of BA's problems I have read on here, or anywhere else for that matter.
Congratulations on an incisive diagnosis - the only problem is the problem itself, which appears pretty insoluble.:(

[PoodleVelour]

At the risk of sounding poorly informed, what exactly did Bob do to run up such a huge debt?:confused: Ethnic tails are admittedly a joke, but only millions - not billions.

[HZ123]

Have to agree; Bob was the person who made some effort to enforce tougher working conditions and had he been supported by the board and other management we might not be in such serious problems.

[Roobarb]

When Levin and King turned the British Airways Corporation into a plc, they identified an optimum headcount of 42000 to be sufficient for the expanding BA of the early 90’s.

Then something went badly wrong and Ailing Bob found himself in the chair. His first action was to hire 24000 functionally challenged buffoons, who know nothing and were qualified for even less, to make BA ‘the best managed company in the World

Finding themselves with nothing to do, these parasites rushed about with clipboards and mobile phones getting in the way of the people who were doing the job. As performance declined, they introduced targets and KRAs which steadily became the only incentive driving the Company.

Those who cried ‘ICEBERG’ were rubbished and sidelined, and very soon the only people who remained in positions of responsibility were the YesBobs, whose sole pleasure was the favour of the Emporer. ‘Full speed ahead’ became the battle cry.

They continued toward inspired policies such as $1bn fixed rate loans at 10%, financing the 777s with Yen loans when the Yen was weak. Those same loans now cost a fortune as the balance tips. There are more and worse lamentations.

Now we pay £39000 an hour in interest alone, the management is still pervaded by incompetence to the very highest levels. The Cabin Crew, who have legendary numbers of managers, are about to get yet more managers. Terminal 4 is an unmitigated disaster, and they haven’t a clue what to do. They’re running about like Chicken Lickin as the sky falls in. All courtesy of the worst offender of all, Strike Meat.

The solution is clear as a shining star, 24000 administrative non-operational staff need to leave. This apocalyptic prescription is so terrifying for the legions of inepts, who have no chance of employment elsewhere, that they are in denial.

Whilst we still turnover £7.1bn, there may be enough to keep the gravytrain on the rails. Otherwise, administration would be the only way out. It’s like having woodworm.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/roobarb/images/32/12.gif

[DarkStar]

Top Bunk - I agree the BA board only have a few issues with BA Flight Crew.

1. The huge cost of BA Crew

and

2. The outdated Bidline system.

That's all...

:hmm:

[TopBunk]

DarkStar

Just shows how little you know then, doesn't it!

Just as an example:

Bidline at LHR - shorthaul fleet : I have flown 730 hours in the last 12 months, no overtime, consiously trying to maximise time off and doing single sector days if possible.

Carmen at LGW - B737: flying about 750 hours per anunum with little satisfaction of choice of days off or destinations.

Can I suggest that you don't comment on what you don't know about in future.

[maxy101]

Darkstar If I could second Topbunks comments. I fly the -400 and fly between 850 and 900 hrs a yr. Explain to me how I'm inefficient and overpaid again? BTW when I went over the 900 hrs one time, the company deducted the enforced time off from my salary. Cost me 2400 quid to sit at home for working to the companies requirements. Seems like someone has been telling you porky pies...

[bean_counter]

PoodleVelour:
I believe the debts came from 2 main sources, buildings (Waterside, new world cargo centre) and aircraft (buying 50+ 747 400s, 40+ 777 200s and then after that 60+ new Airbus for european routes). Not sure what the exact numbers are but they are probably on the BA website.

Add to that building and then dismantling a hub at Gatwick and the pensions liabilities and there's the problem.

Roobarb wrote:

"The solution is clear as a shining star, 24000 administrative non-operational staff need to leave"

But according to this recent article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/story/0,1371,1106942,00.html

there is now 46000 staff, 13000 have gone in the last 2 years and there are rumours of another 5000 this year. That makes a possible 18000 total to go. Is roobarb asking for another 24 on top of that, leaving 22, or 6 more to make 24 total, assuming that the rumoured 5 is real and the first 13 were all admin? And can there really be that many "administrative non-operational staff" left in BA? I think I read on these pages that some of the 13000 to go were engineers at Gatwick ?

My point is, it seems to me 22000 isn't enough for a company the size of BA so maybe the outsourcing european flying rumour has some truth ? If more people get sacked then at least some would have to come from operational staff wouldn't they?

Does anyone from BA know what the numbers are, how many admin are left after the 13 + 5 cuts ?

And also, what does "the worst offender, strike meat" mean, I don't know that term?

[HZ123]

Clearly Darkstar is anti crew as this is not the first thread that he has had a pop off in. What is the betting he is probably a BA senior manager so in fairness he/she is entitled to be out of touch with many of the BA problems.

[Mick Stability]

I believe Mr Meat is a spoonerism, allowing the infamous individual to pass these annals un-named.

13000 staff cut so far is an accounting excercise. If you compare the staff numbers as published by BA in its accounts, I have figures as follows:

-1995 54958
-2000 65460
-2002 61460
-2003 57014

which shows how even from the obese 65k in 2000, we still have lost a maximum of 8000 employees. The rest is an accounting fudge, with people 'doubling-up' some jobs, and others sitting at home on full pay. Others stand around in Waterside pretending to be pot plants:} .

The fact is we have 3 people for every 2 jobs, in an industry where we cannot afford the luxury of a behemoth bureaucracy.

The old dog is right.

[Diesel]

Mick Stability

Agreed. Still can't quite see how how the Manpower Equivalent (MPE) method of counting job losses actually adds up to any savings.

Beyond that, haven't BA withdrawn form a lot of activities that used to be done in-house? i.e contracted in catering, some terminal services etc... shouldn't that mean a need for even fewer staff than the figure calculated?

[DarkStar]

Top Bunk - I know more than you think. The money that is hosed down on Crew on draft, the waste of TAS crews. If Bidline is so efficent, why haven't other airlines adopted it then?

I know of Crew Hotels being split between Flight and Cabin Crew for crazy reasons, such as the Cabin Crew hotel had showers and not baths in their rooms. I used to travel on duty often, stay in the same hotels as Crew and yet a Capt's allowances were more than mine - how can that be justified? Why should he have greater allowances than anyone else?

HZ123 - I'm not anti-Crew, in fact many of my friends fly for BA and hence my insight which is obviously unwelcome by some. I think Hand Solo said you were a ramp worker or a trainer or something like that.....now there is a group of people who don't appreciate Crew! Is your name Charlie?

[M.Mouse]

I know of Crew Hotels being split between Flight and Cabin Crew for crazy reasons, such as the Cabin Crew hotel had showers and not baths in their rooms.

One of several reasons and a selective quote to support your agenda. Hotels are agreed by BALPA when BALPA is happy that crew are able to achieve adequate rest before a duty. If you had really stayed in many hotels (which I doubt) you would understand the importance of a hotel meeting a required standard. Cabin crew stay in some appalling places e.g. The Carlton in JNB before it was closed down.

I used to travel on duty often, stay in the same hotels as Crew and yet a Capt's allowances were more than mine - how can that be justified? Why should he have greater allowances than anyone else?

Just shows how out of touch you are because that system disappeared long ago.

Your postings appear to be driven by envy.

[Torquelink]

Just one issue with Loaded's anaysis: that LH wouldn't exist without SH. VS seems to survive without in-house feed. Provided there are sufficient frequencies into the hub provided by whoever (i.e. low-cost or other) so that pax can make reasonable connections, LH would attract traffic. Might have to agree interline/codeshare agreemnts to avoid poaching by others but ownership not vital. Also, it would avoid pro-rate nonsense where SH sector is sold way below cost in order to attract pax onto LH. I agree such a restructuring is so daunting that it's unlikely to happen.

[Seat1APlease]

I agree with all Roobarb says but another factor was the fixation with "new management" philosophy.

Bob Ayling was very close to New Labour and Tony Blair and the fixation with monitoring and league tables were common to both.

In response to long hospital waiting times the government didn't spend the money on doctors and nurses but tried to tackle the problem by establishing performance league table and monitoring waiting times.

Bob did exactly the same thing. Flights were delayed by loading shortages, but instead of recruiting 2 loaders on 20K p.a. he would recruit a junior manager on 40k, equip them with a clipboard and stopwatch, and send them forth.

We then knew that last weeks delays might have been 4% less than a week before but not a single extra bag would have been loaded.

This happened throughout the airline. Cabin Crew introduced whole new layers of non-flying management to monitor sickness, measure how many crew could be removed before the complaints from passengers got worse etc. but nothing was actually done to improve the product.

Waterworld was stuffed with people working hard measuring things, but not actually doing anything to improve the bottom line.

They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[DarkStar]

Torquelink - Yes, Flight Crew allowances are now incorporated into pay and naturally pension. However, the difference in allowances still exists and you ahve not been able to justify why its higher for Flight Crew than Cabin Crew or Groundstaff - please justify? As I say, many of my friends are BA Flt Crew and they state quite openly that Bidline works for the benefit of Crew rather than BA - can you justify that as well?

It's not envy, that's a standard answer from Crew. It's being able to highlight areas where so much money is being frittered away due to out-dated working practices. If BA was to start again, Bidline would be out the window straight away - I assume you can argue against that as well? Longhaul crew have so much time off, a mate of mine flew 4 trips on 777 in two months!

P.S - In a previous job I stayed at Hotels all over the network and probably stayed more hotels than yourself.

:hmm:

[M.Mouse]

However, the difference in allowances still exists

Err....no.

Longhaul crew have so much time off, a mate of mine flew 4 trips on 777 in two months!

Don't doubt it but without a look at why I can't respond. How about the fact that I regularly fly between 5 and 6 transatlantics a month, is that good enough for you?

In a previous job I stayed at Hotels all over the network and probably stayed more hotels than yourself

Doesn't prevent you talking nonsense though.

[Diesel]

Dark star

BA is undoubtedly sinking under a weight of extreme and arcane IR paractices. The pilot community is already working close to its legal limit in some areas. As a group we (yes I am one) have moved a long way. We have many agreements about how we should operate but in reality pilots bend over backwards to keep the operation on the road on the day. I simply cannot be anymore flexible day to day.

Bidline may well be a costly rostering system. I have little info on comparisons. Can see TASS is a cost that may need addressing. Not sure about the Duty free week though. My understanding was that this was for the lack of bank holidays - don't most people get those?

Specifics aside, the pilot community could undoubtedly find something else to contribute but I think I speak for many colleagues when I point out that many other groups in BA are extraordinary in their operation. MT at the moment is simply absurd. The whole farce about needing a "chock man" recently....I for one will go further but FIRST it's time for those that would lead us to bite the bullet and take on those more militant groups. At the moment I am left with the impression that the most aggressive, miltant groups get away with murder. That needs to change!

Regards

Diesel

PS just seen your comments on allowances - they really are £2.50/hr for all of us....not sure what you are driving at about captain getting more. Am I missing out on something????

[TopBunk]

Darkstar

Bidline is in many companies - virtually every company in the USA has a bidline system - many limited to 75 block hours per month at that, in comparison to our 86/88 hours.

Allowances - ground staff on duty probably get more than flight crew since our changes. £2.50 per hour (taxed at 18%) does not go far in many destinations (OSL, ZRH etc in SH, HKG etc in LH).

Differences still exist with the captain being paid more than ....? Tell us exactly what you mean, cos' I think you'll find that you are wrong, all flight crew get £2.50 per hour TAFB (reduced proportionally if we get back early!).

TAS - I presume you mean Time Assignable. Usually the company's doing not the pilots'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but TAS results from the company canceling a flight or changing the type. Then the pilot is made time assignable, giving the company the opportunity to reuse them - extra standby in effect. If they then choose not to use him, then it's hardly the fault of the pilot.

Draft Payments - paid overtime in efffect for working over and above contracted hours. When required (not that often) it is often because of c*ck ups in other departments. The actual amounts paid are not much different to those at LGW under the Carmen rostering system for Rest Day working. Another thread at the moment suggests that Ryanair pilots are paid Eur 150-ish per block hour overtime - that is more than I get for overtime.

[DarkStar]

My post's do refer as to why BA has to re-structure. I understand Monday 26Jan will be the day of 'the announcement'.

HZ123 - Ha! Nice one....

[FadeC]

Darkstar,

You say the flightcrew are overpaid ?

I defy you to find any cheaper Flight Crew on the North Atlantic than most of the F/Os on the 767.

Pop onto 123.45 over the Atlantic and you can listen to me and the Captain play:

"I have the Cheapest F/O on the North Atlantic tonight, he gets paid: xxxxx Beat That!"

Most nights the reponses are:

"Is that a month?!?!?!"

Most 767 F/Os are Year 2 F/Os earning less than most of the Long Haul Cabin Crew.

On a recent heavy trip me and the other F/O passed the time while the Capt was on his rest laughing at the fact that between us we earned less than the CSD.

In the bar that night the Junior Cabin Crew were horrified to learn they took home more each month than we did and actually bought us a drink out of pity!

Now who ever heard of the Cabin Crew getting the first round in !!

It comes to something when a BA Longhaul Pilot earns less than the Cabin Crew, now who's overpaid ?

FadeC

[DarkStar]

FadeC - I have never said Flt Crew are overpaid. In fact, I concur with your 767 F/O comments related to Cabin Crew pay. My comments relate to out-dated IR practices and agreements.

I do believe that something is wrong when Cabin Crew are earning more than Flt Crew and, dare I say it, many Managers within BA - not all Managers are useless.(...and I'm not Mgmt either) and probably most earn more than myself.

It also beggars belief that many people aspire to Cabin Crew because of the money they can earn (though the new starter rates are more realistic). BA has to tackle it's greatest cost.

:rolleyes:

[Justbelowcap]

Having been both Cabin Crew and FC I can assure you that FC earn considerably more than the CC. This " the CSD earns more than the FO" is just rubbish. Too many niave guys believing too many tall stories told after too many beers. The new contract CC actually are getting paid very little. My other half is a CSD, I'm a Capt and she never takes home close to 50% of my net monthly pay. More often than not it is less than a third.

(Many CEP's aren't getting paid the industry standard but that is the deal they signed for when they joined and is another matter. That is how they pay for their training.)

I agree, in part, with the sentiments of Darkstar. Bidline is overly complicated. There does need to be change but I can't really see that the FC can be any more flexible than they already are, the CC on the other hand are NEVER flexible and that has to change.

MT, surely they are about to be outsourced. A total disgrace.

IM, also possibles for outsourcing.

The bottom line is that any idea that saves cash is good idea at the moment.

[BahrainLad]

Hmmm.....I don't think BA needs much "outsourcing" per se, especially considering that most outsourcing leaves such a messy bureaucracy behind (to "monitor" the outsourcing company) to negate any cost savings derived from the outsourcing process....

What I imagine they need is an opportunity to tear up the entire company and start from scratch. It's an old airline, it's never been forced to drastically re-organise, let's break down some of those empires (in all areas) and build an airline for the 21st century.

After all, in 10 years time there'll only be 3 major network carriers across the EU. BA could, nay should, be one of them. But it needs to stake its claim ]now.

[Diesel]

What's the betting that the so called big announcement turns out to be a big let down, just more of the same. Maybe a few more MPE job reductions and lots of talk of efficiency. Probably tackle the less obstructive of the unions, leaving the most militant as they might strike. Few more years of struggling before Rod moves to pastures new. He really doesn't have to fix it all, just appear to have done something and avoid going bust...

[Blackball]

Cynical but oh so true Diesel. I just wish it was otherwise.:(