Supersonic over the UK

[TD&H]

Can anyone say when the military were last allowed to deliberately fly at supersonic speeds over the UK? As against the 'I'm sorry Boss, I didn't mean to engage reheat for so long'.

I seem to remember in the early 1960's hearing sonic booms/rumbles, although being in my late single digit years I can't with all honesty recall exactly what the noises were. Would any of the development Lightnings out of nearby Seighford have been the source? However IIRC it was more of a general rumble in the distance more associated with high level flight.

If supersonic flight was allowed, who/what would have been the culprits?

Thanks, TD&H

[BEagle]

Certain random overland supersonic flights by Lightnings were tasked in the late 1960s to test whether the genpub would accept overland SST flights.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the answer was that the genpub most certainly wouldn't! But I gather that much fun was had booming various sleepy corners of Great Britain!

[Pontius Navigator]

About 3-4 years ago an F15C dropped one over the Coningsby area. They were dogfighting and he dropped one in the vertical.

The good news is that no one believed it was a sonic boom as it did not 'sound' like one. Oh for experts. As we were watching them at the time we didn't say a word. The difference was like dropping a doughnut of noise that expanded from the centre rather than the more usual sweep.

[FEBA]

PN
"Dropped one" I'm sure he may have done but would not have wished it to be discussed here !
I think you are refering to the Prandtl-Glauert Singularity (http://www.eng.vt.edu/fluids/msc/gallery/conden/pg_sing.htm)
FEBA

[Morrissey]

Living on the Norfolk coast my childhood in the early 70's was regularly disturbed by Lightnings going on full burner up the coast. :O

Oh to see that again.

[Pom Pax]

Certainly the free for all lasted only a few weeks, "56 squadron received their first Swift F.1s on the 13th of February 1954", certainly by April bangs over land were not on as every broken window and lifted roof tile in Fenland was being claimed from the Air Ministry. My uncle had all his tiles refixed.
Holidaying on Bay of Biscay in the mid sixties revealed the French were much more tolerant.
When Concorde was introduced B.A. copted a load of flax from the Cornish over regular bangs every night which they denied responsiblity. However light summer evenings soon revealed BA quietly returning to the North, bang bang look South and there was AF!

[TD&H]

BEagle, PN, FEBA, PP and Morrisey

Thanks for those replies. That Prandtl-Glauest link provides for some interesting photographs and information.

Anyone out there involved with the Lightnings at Seighford? I was too young to appreciate that a small part of that historic aircraft's development was going on so close to home.

Now who is willing to admit to more recent 'I'm sorry boss' supersonic trips?

[ShyTorque]

I'm certain I experienced a boom as I joined the M1 motorway just a couple of years back. There was a very loud double bang, enough to wake up my wife, who was dozing. I initially thought a coach on my nearside had bumped my car from behind and I slowed down onto the hard shoulder, followed by the coach driver who also stopped his vehicle.

I got out to look at the rear of my car and to my surprise there was absolutely no damage. I noticed that the coach driver was also inspecting the rear of his vehicle. I walked over to him and he said "What the hell was that bang, I thought someone had hit me from behind". We then both realised there were other cars stopped behind us, their drivers also looking very confused as they checked their vehicles too! Altogether there were about 6 or 8 vehicles pulled up.

No car had damage, so we set off again. It was only then that I realised what it possibly was; I remember hearing similar sounding sonic booms in my childhood.

:O Just read this again, I wasn't suggesting I was breaking the speed limit, I think it must have been a mil jet at altitude!

[John Farley]

RAE Bedford had an approved supersonic overland route until at least 1967 (when I left) and probably for some time after that. It went out NE from Bedford over the twin canals. It was used by the FD2 and BAC 221 research aircraft plus the odd Lightning trip looking at projected Concorde climb and descent profiles.

[BEagle]

On a UK ADEX CAP-ing for ages at low level in an F4 with tits-up radar, we were just about to stop annoying the folks below and go home to Wattisham when we spotted 2 Jags (no, not Biffer Prescott!) heading towards an entry point for Spadeadam. Then 2 more from another direction; clearly we'd found the Muds' merge point. So top left and away.....YAHOO!!...the horns came out. Fox 2....then another...shot past Jag mate (can still see the look of surprise on his face!)....almost in range of the front pair when I noticed a little twitch on the altimeter. Dim distant 'PITCHBLOT' memories - that'll be Transonic Jump then. Bet it sounds impressive at 250 ft... Fox 2 on one of the first pair - check ASI/Machmeter...oops, sorry folks, it says M1+! Then we're at Chicken, going the wrong way very fast! Out of A/B, gently pitch to about 30 deg nose up, argue with the Air Traffickers and point south.....

Funny thing was, no-one ever complained!

Got up to M0.97 in a Vulcan once..... But that was by cock-up, not intention! Up at FL450, decide that a rapid descent will be even more rapid if we extend high drag airbrakes and idle, then dive to the max speed permitted, figuring that accelerating against airbrake will allow a greater rate of descent than would the usual technique. But I'd forgotten about the trim change caused by the very last bit of airbrake extension, and as a result we adopted an alarmingly steep attitude - and as Vulcan pilots will remember, at M0.97 something like 75% of up elevon has already been applied by the Auto Mach Trim system, leaving not a lot to pitch the ac back up with! Fortunately the denser air soon won and our descent became rather more normal. Which is just as well, because our potential boom would have been right over RAF Bawtry, No 1 (Bomber) Group HQ, so it's doubtful whether we could have kept the fact from the AOC!

Another 'boom' tale - Dear old 'Puddy' Catt would always search out an Irish Sea ferry during any Hunter airtest in order to boom the thing during the high speed run! Went flying in a T-bird with him once; the ac had been snagged for suspected aileron snatch. Up we went to about 40000ft, then Puddy put it into a steep turn and let the speed fall way below anything I'd ever seen in an airborne Hunter before. It was shaking and buffeting like crazy, dust was coming up from the floor but Puddy just said "Nothing wrong with these ailerons". Then he let it accelerate before he said "There's one of the bug.gers, Tally Ho!", rolled over to about 30 deg nose down with full chat, rolled erect and aimed squarely at the Fishguard to Rosslare ferry.... Mach 1.1 at least... "Ailerons are still fine" said Puddy, "That'll give those Irish bug.gers something to think about!".

[FEBA]

BEagle
Quit all this consultancy cr@p. Use your double oral skills (vocal and oral) and you could earn a fortune on the after dinner speaking circuit .
FEBA

[TD&H]

BEagle, please don't go on the speaking tour, couldn't afford an expensive dinner to listen to you. How about a book or two? Certainly reading your threads/responses on Vulcans, Buccaneers, Nostalgia and History. You should gather these all up, together with PN's, John Farley's et al, and write a mighty tome that would keep all Ppruners happy for many a day.

[BEagle]

FEBA/TD&H, whilst it's very kind of you to say such things, you should know that virtually everyone who joined when I did probably has far more of interest to talk about! The size of the RAF even in those days cannot really be appreciated by most folk of today.

Just look at the numbers of aircraft, squadrons, aerodromes which we had then. Plus hours were far more generously allocated, fun was allowed and flying skills were more important than political correctness, investment in paperwork, performance indicators, 'management initiatives', 'mission statements' and the rest of the scribbldegook cr@p of today.

I went supersonic in the Gnat, Hunter and F4 (and b£oody nearly so in the Vulcan!). But so did dozens of others. Well, perhaps not in the Vulcan! Most of us had lots of Chipmunk time before starting at Cranwell, others went to straight to Linton. We all did around 125-140 hours on the JP before starting at AFTS by which time I had managed to get 311 hours total time, of which 95 was solo. Compare that with the current ME pilots who have only around 25 hours total solo time (all of it in the Tupperware Teutor) when they join their OCUs......

Supersonic flight was commonplace in the 50s when I was growing up - an old 1954 'Battle of Britain At Home' brochure I have from RAF Merryfield includes in the flying display section 'Breaking the sound barrier by a Sabre of Fighter Command'...... Bangs were made at Farnborough and elsewhere, but later were only heard in connection with the Concorde development programme. But the odd 892 sqn boom fom Yeovilton was often heard in the early '70s!

Sorry - a bit off thread. But I just wanted to make the point that I really didn't do anything that out of the ordinary - I was just one of many who were lucky enough to have joined when I did!

[TD&H]

BEagle

Yes there were many others out there, unfortunately too many have been lost, not all just to the ravages of time. The important point is the ability to tell one's story, or other's on their behalf, in an interesting, illuminating way. That's the big thing coming out of these threads. As john Farley said, these threads are what Pprune is all about, as against the whinging that goes on in some of the other areas.

You don't have to be the writer of the book. Didn't I see on the Vulcan thread an offer to edit the stories? That's what is needed, with you, JF, PN et al willing to chat, write down your memories, etc. for someone else to edit.

The cold war was an important part of all our lives, whether at the sharp end like you, or the blunt end for us civilians. It needs to be properly recorded, especially the interesting bits.

I shall continue (with others I'm sure) to gently nag (sorry, encourage) you to do your bit, please.

[Impiger]

Supersonic overland?

Been there done that and had the bollocking!

Interestingly during the Cold War it was permitted over Germany at FL360 and above but the same rule didn't apply in UK. Not sure if the Europeans have since modified their rules.

Anyhow speed aint all its cracked up to be and if BEags had flown with a decent navigator he would not have had to use the throttles to correct intercept geometry!!

[BEagle]

Quite so - but the MCS was tits-up, so the navigator couldn't really do much to assist the stern chase we ended up in!

[Starboard Flip Flop]

Not strictly in line with the thread ... but i know of alot of carnage down in the Falkland Islands through some supersonic flyby's of Mount Pleasant Airfield over the helicopter hanger ... a new roof was required and the war won between the wobbly heads and the fast jet mates ;)

[SirToppamHat]

As the thread suggests, SS flight over the UK is prohibited (except for operational reasons) at all levels. However, I don't believe this is the case in some countries, where there is a lower limit, above which it is permitted to fly supersonic (presumably iaw additional rules).

Once the 3 Typhoons come into service, does anyone anticipate any push for changes to the current regs?

[FEBA]

Typhoons !!!!
Two sugars please. :E