New RAF Recruitment Ad.

[akula]

Just looking for anyones thoughts on the new recruitment ad that is on the tv these days, in particular the the image of a caring sharing modern Air Force that is portrayed and how this fits in with the Trades Description Act 1968.

Cheers

[tradewind]

Haven't seen it myself, but my wife says its cr@p - says it all really! Pity, the Air Force has never been any good at recruitment videos.

[Runaway Gun]

I haven't seen the RAF advertisement, but it reminds me of the military recruiting ads that ran in Australia many years ago.

The selected advertising agency decided to wipe any footage of soldiers in DPM or camoflage clothing of any description, no face paint, no muddy boots, and definitely NO GUNS.

Instead they wanted everyone in shirt and ties, tapping away at computers, earning degrees, laughing and drinking in the Mess, and playing volleyball (not all at once).

As a result many recruits expressed shock and horror when told to wear DPM's and to fire guns. They wanted to work in the Army that was shown on TV. :rolleyes:

[Jerry Can]

The new advertisement is the greatest work of ficition since The Lord of the Rings!

Very funny though!!

[Training Risky]

Akula, is this the ad that features a guy running in his spare time, then it goes to clips of harrier pilots and other assorted trades, then ends with the same guy now sitting in the open hatch of a SAR Sea King? - if this is the one you mean, then yes it isn't up to much.

I thought another cr@p ad was the one with a single herc and harrier darting about the Balkan countryside, giving you the impression they are about to conduct some really warry stuff... then at the last minute the herc drops a load of aid to swarms of villagers - with someone shouting "THERE IS HOPE":yuk: :yuk:

In contrast though, the one they showed a couple of years ago was quite good. A Tornado(?) in a flat spin and a clock counting down to impact with terra firma. Then at the last minute the fast-jet hero recovers and climbs away - and a simple caption states "NO TIME WASTERS PLEASE"... with the digital readout on 00.07 secs to impact. - Quite cool I thought.

[akula]

Training Risky,
No not the running man but the poor chap with a nick in his finger(a sliver of wood I think) working in a supermarket, a bit abstract I know but when you see it in all it's glory you will be truly astounded:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

Cheers

[Phoney Tony]

Do they use real servicemen for the recruiting photos/ films?

Do they get paid royalties/ repeat fees?

[STANDTO]

best one ever had to be the pizza delivery boy on the moped


"Jump jet Pilot" reads the caption

.......if he'd joined the Navy!

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

the recruiting ad I used to like featured a young lad at school, arms outstretched in the playground running around like an aeroplane (like I used to do..ahem) and the caption read;

Who ever used to play Chartered Accountants at school?

Brilliant

Sadly, in todays climate, there is a certain irony in it

[nimrodnosewheel]

From a marketing point of view one asks oneself a very simple question, "Would this ad make anyone want to join the Air Force?" In my opinion its a big NO, ergo it is money down the drain as far as the MOD is concerned but trebles all round at the ad agency! For those readers familiar with the ad, who the f**k wants to feel valued and cared for, you join up to do that for others, for a challenge AND BECAUSE ITS HARD, not to get a splinter taken out of your finger. You can't run a service where each working day is preceded with a group hug and an atuning session to get in touch with our feelings. Training Risky, agree with all your comments.

[BEagle]

I haven't seen this particular work of fiction yet - perhaps its only being shown in certain regions? Or at target audiences on the Cartoon Network?

A few fast jets thundering overhead at low level is the best recruiting advert there is. In my case it was a blue-noting Hunter over my prep school. "That looks fun", I thought. It turned out to be just that.

But nowadays it's so rare to see any RAF aircraft at all - particularly at low level:(

[NURSE]

i would love to see service recruiters having to tell the whole truth to potential recruits.

[Gainesy]

What's wrong with:
"Want to kill bad guys and blow their stuff up?":E

[QuidProQuo]

The problem with us all pronouncing on recruiting adverts is that we all tend to be outside the target audience (16-24 year olds), have been in the RAF (or are still in) and think we know best. I, for one, do not know what makes an 18 year old tick - I know what made me tick at that age, but life and youth moves on. The RAF ran a very "bland" recruiting advert 2 years ago ( lots of pictures and film of people in an office) which loads of people said was c@£p - but it was the best ad the RAF ever had, despite the fact that there were no fast jets. Let's also not forget that the RAF is trying to recruit personnel to all branches and trades, not just aircrew. For some 42000 personnel (approx) flying a plane is not what they joined for! Overall, DofR do a good job and have managed to meet most recruiting targets recently. I know we all like to think we know best, but give credit where credit is due - the recruiters know who they are trying to recruit. The fact that we are all old and kn@&#ered is not their problem!

[Pindi]

You may be right, Quid Pro Quo, but who can tell ? Are recruits specifically asked at any stage whether they were influenced by a recruitng advertisement ? I rather doubt it. I also doubt that DPR itself slaves away with coloured inks and Brownie cameras producing this unrealistic material. More likely this is undertaken by contracted advertising agencies who, unsurprisingly, have scant knowledge of the Services and who's bread and butter is in the world of commerce.

[Dop]

Are you talking about the ad. I've just seen, the one with the guy in the supermarket where they close it down because he has a splinter in his finger or something?

I was watching that wondering what the heck it was an advert for....!

"But... Where were the aeroplanes going VOOOOOMMM!!!?"

[BEagle]

What UTTER cr@p that new RAF advert is. I've just seen it on UK TV; funnily enough the next advert break had an ad for the TA. Far, far better. What on earth do the pony-tailed tw@t advertising luvvies think they're doing producing such utter bilge?

And why no aeroplanes or helicopters? Or is it just that the UK so ashamed of its ageing RAF aircraft and prefers to portray an image of a Royal Admin Force.......

Even 'Aerocrats' was better in the late '60s!!

[Scud-U-Like]

Quite right, QPQ. A bunch of cynical old knackers are probably not the best people to decide what sort of advertising appeals to young people. Ad people test and research their ideas among samples of their target audience.

[bigley]

I find it ironic that the central point of the adverts to to entice people to join an employer that 'values you'!

[Bing]

I do find it slightly odd that the ad gives no indication whatsoever of what you could find yourself doing in the RAF. I'll admit I'm not part of the target audience but it seems a bit of a waste of time if all it does is get a load of people to trapse down to the local recruiting office and then find out that there's nothing they want to do in the air force. Surely it'd be better to attract less people to the recruiting office, but who at least have an idea of a trade they want to follow or whatever. Sort of a quality over quantity thing.
You've got to wonder about the false advertising angle as well.

[Blacksheep]

QuidProQuo hit the nail on the head. I once used to wonder why anyone would join the RAF to be a mess steward or a storekeeper and believed the service was all about aeroplanes. As I got some time in, I came to realise that it takes all sorts to make an RAF, or an Army or a Navy for that matter, but everyone is important in their own way. Pilots mostly recruit themselves; it's the more mundane jobs that need to be "sold" by the recruiters.

Aircrew ought to know better than most, the importance of aiming at the right target .

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[noisy]

BEagle, is that the TA advert where the loner is running around in the park with a football? The slogan was "You need the TA"

Every time my friends and I saw it we used to say "I need the TA like a kick up the A:mad: e"

The regular army adverts from a year or two ago were good; the ones that concentrated on a single character who was a communications engineer, or whatever. They looked like they'd been made by someone in the service and not some **** in the city.

[stillin1]

:mad:
Saw the bl@@dy ****e thing last night.
spent 90% of the time thinking "what is this b@@lox advertising" and the last 10% thinking "what a load of cr@p that was"
Had zero relevance, zero impact, zero attraction and zero message = 100% failure.

Ahh! - I think I've got it. Were trying to recrute more bl@@ding zeros. :yuk:

Who ever agreed to that as a recruiting ad should PVR immediately and get a job at the f@@king supermarket :(

Oooh, its nearly enough to make you swear

[BEagle]

Didn't some ex-F4 senior bod actually PVR and then do his time on the tills at some shop or other before taking over management of a large retail organisation? Can't recall who/what/when.....

[DH98]

Ahem Gentlemen,

This ad makes perfect sense to me, although I detest it and the message that it is attempting to convey.

The bottom line is the RAF is in the game of portraying itself as a caring sharing organisation where everybodies contribution, and you the individual, are valued.

Unfortunately the ad paints a rather unsavoury picture of a fighting service. Remember Aircrew recruit themselves, I know I have to work with a whole Sqn of them every day in my little Sqn Ops section. It's the non commissioned trades and the ground branches that are the focus of all this advertising.

For me the the quality of recruit is abysmal, military discipline and ethos is an anathema to all but the smallest minority. The majority of junior SAC's in the Service today, in my opinion, are frankly a waste of skin. But what makes it worse is that people in authority and who are directly responsible for setting the standard - don't! They simply lack the moral courage and instead treat young airmen in the same manner as yoofs at the local yoof club. A recent comment that came from my trade training establishment (FOTF - TG9 FOA/FOA ATC) was that the recruits are coming from Halton as ill disciplined and showing no respect for rank or authority, strange really as Shawbury is a training establishment and therefore is able to instill these attributes, instead all the staff do is bleat!

Therefore that little job is now left up to people like me on the front line. I have recently had to deal with a particularly awkward SAC who was not only stupid and lazy, but frankly dangerous. Right up to the very end bloggs still didn't get it! Trouble is the replacement is no better, full of sh!te!

No surprise then that I've PVR'd, cannot be bothered anymore with people who regard the RAF as a gravy trainand that life as a whole owes them a living. Teamwork, miliatry ethos, comradeship, pride et al where is it in today's RAF?

[ZH875]

DH98, you have hit the nail on the head with the biggest hammer.

The same is true of the 'yoofs' who pass through Cosford. There, the instructors must be pleasant, polite, must not shout, and most of all must not fail anyone for anything. as they do not have enough of the 'yoofs' wanting to enter.

Them that do want to work on the sqn are happy to do so, but do not want to have to do the work of 2 people all the time.

Cosford even issue recruits with a 'lovey' chit,:yuk: which lays down all the nice ways of being treated and how they can ring the Orderly Officer on the number on the 'lovey' if they feel that they have been 'mistreated' by anyone.

Tis different to the way I was shouted and cajouled into doing things for the service during my training, and I still remember all the right things done for the right reason, but can hardly remember all teh wrong things.

P45's to all in 2004.

[Jerry Can]

I have to agree with the last two posts. Coming from a background in the RM, i was absolutely astounded at the lack of discipline and the level of standards in the RAF. I accept that they are two very different forces trying to achieve different things but the basic level of military discipline in the RAF is low, if not none existent.

The RM isnt 24/7 balling and shouting and once training is over can be quite relaxed providing you stay on the right side of the line. If you mess up you soon pay for it!

I have experienced people turning up late in the RAF, a negligent discharge on a range both with no repercussions, not even a b@*@*cking. At Fairford two years ago i was unfortunate enought to 'volunteer' for the security force! We had several AC's and LAC's from Halton and Cosford and some of them were very keen to back chat and even try to refuse to do some tasks until i had a quiet word and pointed out how things work in the military! Admittedly the majority were very hard working but it shouldn't happen at that early stage of their careers.

I can see what the ad was trying to achieve but i don't think it an attention grabber for its target audience.

[Scud-U-Like]

Much as the quality of some of our new entrants bothers me, I find equally troubling the, "I'm old school" mentality of some of our more experienced people. Whether we like it or not, today's recruit is a different animal from his predecessor, as was the generation of recruits before him. We can either stick our heads in the sand and hope that the youth of today will suddenly metamorphose into the youth of twenty years ago or we can adapt our training methods, with a realistic prospect of retaining RAF recruits for more than 24 hours. If young people are generally more confident, more questioning and more suspicious of authority than they used to be, that is something we need to manage (and even turn to our advantage).

In today's litigious society, I'm sure many supervisors are genuinely fearful of enforcing discipline and, when they do decide to take things "all the way", frankly, there often isn't much backing from above. Take, for example, the many PPRuners (a large number of whom are presumably longer in tooth, rank and authority than many supervisors of junior airmen and women) who appear to revel in any subverting of the disciplinary process and seem only too happy to see someone "beating the system".

[Felix Lighter]

10 year old boy, flying kite on the cliff top:

RNZAF ad...................... "do you remember as a young boy, when you looked up into the sky with joy and the sky filled with thunder as the jets flew by.............."

2 x A4's flash past low and 'fast' down the beach.

Serving personnel: "Wicked - great ad"
PC pratt in Airstaff "Ad is patently sexist" BOY on cliff BOY in script, pilots all BOYS..........

Great advert, with lots of flying clips, cut - and replaced with blanket stackers and adminos typing up next meal request......... bah humbug

Disappointed yes, surprised no!

[Farfrompuken]

What a complete load of tosh!

Glad I didn't join on the basis of that ad; I'd want my money back!

Have no idea who's the agency responsible, but they need to get back to some more punchy stuff, methinks.

[Runaway Gun]

Felix,

What sort of ads do they run in NZ now that there are no more jets?

Are they just showing a bored old man flying kites, looking at the warbirds flying over?

[Maple 01]

I'm with Scud-u-like, recruits have changed since 1982 when I joined up. They are smarter, better educated and not prepared to take 'the crap' we put up with. Yes, they can be a handful and have to be treated with respect. I for one am glad to see the 'National service' ethos that was still around when I joined of ‘Shut-up, face the front and don’t ask questions’ dieing out. I think those of you who speak disparagingly of the youngsters are doing the vast majority a disservice.

The majority of junior SAC's in the Service today, in my opinion, are frankly a waste of skin.

Watch it winged wonder....it's a long walk home!........I was an SAC once, who do you think fixes the Tonkas/Wokkas/Alberts? Cooks your meals, makes sure you get paid etc?

Coming from a background in the RM, I was absolutely astounded at the lack of discipline and the level of standards in the RAF.

Would I be correct in assuming you're a RAF Reg Mr Can?

' F in Guins' make lousy infantry, Rocks make lousy Techies, Traficers, Adminers or Armours- each to their own,

a negligent discharge on a range both with no repercussions, not even a b@*@*cking.

‘A quiet talking-to’ doesn’t necessarily have to be performed at 100db in the individual’s face causing embarrassment and loss of self-worth as long as he/she knows they’ve screwed up and have learnt their lesson. Most of the ‘Rocks’ I have encountered on GDT seem to have realised this. Again, would it be OK to yell at a Sqn Ldr as you would an LAC?

Is it worth trashing someone’s career over a momentary lapse? And if the ND was performed by aircrew would you still want their head? Or perhaps, if you are a ‘Rock’, you’ve never heard tails of Regiment ‘indiscretions’ that were hushed up?

I have experienced people turning up late in the RAF

Yes, and if the individual is constantly doing late it’s a problem, however, how many times have YOU been late? Asked someone to cover for you or knocked off early – because you can? It’s hypocritical charging an SAC for being ten mins late while the SNCOs and the Officers make their own rules up. (And I’m guilty as charged on the last count) I thought the whole system worked on a bit of 'flex' now and again.

Teamwork, military ethos, comradeship, pride et al where is it in today's RAF?

Same place it’s always been, you’re just getting older. I too say from time-to-time that things are getting worse, recruits are of a lower standard, training isn’t what it was etc – and then I remember they’re just different.

Sorry, this is turning into a bit of a rant defending ‘my guys’ but they are the future of the mob, not us.
‘And the children that you spit on…..’

Regards

-nick

[bigley]

Here, Here! Well said Maple.

[DH98]

Scud and Maple.

Don't misunderstand my sentiments, when I joined in 1982 I was a product of my age, and certainly didn't respond to the type of treatment that was meted out at the time. I look back at the rules and regs in place then and shake my head in derision. Now as a SNCO and IC a mixed Barrack Block I look at how things are very different from my day and applaud it with vigour.

No my beef is with the simple lack of willingness and ability to do a job well, teamwork, Service ethos and so on. The average SAC is certainly no better educated but is certainly less socially aware or responsible. The utter selfishness and insular outlook displayed by many is astonishing, I know, I have to deal with it every day. However it is up to people like us to guide and nurture the next generation on, so that they get their turn long after we've moved on.

The main problems I encounter are stupidity, overconfidence, indolence and a total lack of military bearing. Now call me old fashioned but military bearing is fundemental and is what sets me aside from my civilian counterparts. It is not just my excellence at my primary task but also my miiltary skills and what all that means. These are attributes that I expect from my airmen, what I get instead are civilians in uniform. ND's on a range are unacceptable, I have no quarms with bloggs being ripped a new @rse if he screws up, next time he might kill! Lateness is rare and easily dealt with, and yes there is a huge amount of flex in the system to cope with this, so what?

I am acutely aware that the needs for each service differs, and consequently so does the type of individual we target as potential recruits. The RAF has always prided itself on it's somewhat anarchic outlook, nevertheless there are certain characteristics that are common to all three sevices that are timeless and fundemental. That gentlemen is what's missing, nothing b@ll breaking.

[insty66]

My basic problem with the ad is two fold 1, It does not mention any of the career paths available and 2, IMHO it also bears no resemblance to the reality that I have know for the past 20+ years. The RAF does not value it's personnel in the way portrayed in the ad and if you think otherwise I want your job! because I'll bet you don't have one like mine

Don't get me started on SAC's .................... too late although I don't believe it is entireley thier fault as for the most part we get a fair x-representation of society. What most people who join up don't realise is, just what they are capable of. As for discipline it is every NCO & Officers responsibility not just the training establishment staff. If you've ever looked the other way then you have in a small way contributed to a decline in standards (yes I'm guilty too).
The RAF should never have messed with the technical trades way of recruiting and the given career paths that used to exist. I mean when a techie leaves training he has not earned a formal qualification. The qualifications were one of the major selling points of joining all three services at one time.


The ad still sucks:\

[Ali Barber]

Maple 01,

Can't tell from your profile how long you've been in (assuming you are in) but "coming from a backgreound in the RM = Would I be correct in assuming you're a RAF Reg Mr Can?" shows a lack of general service knowledge. Ever heard of the Royal Marines?

I agree with those who think we've become too "luvvy". We're a fighting force and have to work differently to civilians. Admittedly, it would help if we got a decent bit of leadership from the top.

[Maple 01]

Can't tell from your profile how long you've been in (assuming you are in)

What do you want, my service number? Which flight I was on at No1 School of Recruit Training RAF Swinderby? (7 flight, Sgt Ken Wolf's, we wore light-blue cravats - God alone knows why) I think you'd be fairly safe to assume I've been around. And how long have you been in the game Ali?:*

but "coming from a background in the RM = Would I be correct in assuming you're a RAF Reg Mr Can?" shows a lack of general service knowledge. Ever heard of the Royal Marines?

I did hear a vague rumour - something about floating soldiers isn't it? Can’t see it catching on.......

Why would a RM have many dealings with the RAF unless he'd changed service? Just a supposition of course, but we do get a few re-treads in from time-to-time. Unless Mr Can was involved in the Ash fiasco. If he hasn't 'cross-dressed' then perhaps his views hold little water (see? Naval reference....)

I agree with those who think we've become too "luvvy". We're a fighting force and have to work differently to civilians.

So what do you want done away with? H&S? How many Chiefs have said 'in my day,' then regale us all with tails of dangerous daring-do, which resulted in death/incapacitation? Yes we are different, and when the need arises the rules go by the book, but not just to cover someone’s bad case of 'pressonregardlessness' or because 'I say so' - don't they teach informed leadership at Halton/Cramwell these days?

Admittedly, it would help if we got a decent bit of leadership from the top.

And the middle, and from us pond-life too

The main problems I encounter are stupidity, overconfidence, indolence and a total lack of military bearing.

Sounds like my early 6442s! I'd ask PMA for copies of your own and meet the 'real you' aged 17 - it's not nice.

The RAF has always prided itself on it's somewhat anarchic outlook,

And long may it remain so - but if you recruit bright kids you can't expect them not to question and test the boundries (and the RAF DO recruit the best of what's on offer) The jobs the junors perform are vastly more complicated than in the past - give them some credit.

Perhaps it's not that society is out of step, but us.

One of my old bosses said the RAF had to be brought kicking and screaming into the 1960s:sad:

regards

-nick

[Jerry Can]

Ali Barber, thanks a lot you were right.

Maple, 5 years as a Royal Marines Commando and I am now RAF Aircrew. I was not trying to put down SACs LACs etc (I'm married to one from your trade group!) I fully appreciate just how hard people work in all the trade groups and how they generally get the rough end of the stick. I did point out that the majority are very hard workers and are an asset to the RAF. Finally both the ND and the lateness were Aircrew and in the training system still!

I joined the RAF for two reasons, one because I wanted to fly and two because the RAF in my experience got treated better and had better facilites etc. The point I was trying to make was that in the military there should be some discipline. Especially during training.

I'm definitely do not advocate nose to nose 100db dressing downs. However if you are late for work without good reason then why not be taken aside and shown the error of your ways, a quiet warning first time and more for persistent offenders. As for NDs I dont care who it is, ND and be charged for it, if I NDd I would expect just that.

P.S. The advert is still c**p! And the cross dressing is just a rumour!

[Maple 01]

P.S. The advert is still c**p! And the cross dressing is just a rumour!

can't argue with the first, just a lucky guess with the second:D

Regards

-nick

[TheSeeFarShadow]

Anyone heard the ad the RAF is running on local radio? Caught it on Galaxy FM in the north east. Just as lame as the tv advert. Couldn't even tell you what the content of the advert is. After the third or fourth time you hear it you still don't reallise it's the RAF until the last sentence ('Rise above the Rest' is it?). In my opinion, not likely to inspire anyone to join up.

[DH98]

Maple 01 you I think are missing the point entirely.

Firstly FYI I have a very good memory and appreciate exactly what I was like at 17 thanks, however the fact that I made SNCO in TG9 (OSM/FOM) in less than 9 years tells me that I was doing something right!

When I was a lad I questioned pretty much everything and now I encourage my troops to do the same. By doing this we ensure that mistakes are minimised and lessons are learnt etc, etc.

H&S, COSSH etc are nothing more than industry standards that are LAW and even the MoD cannot escape much of that, also your recollections of daring do impress no one, least of all me. Likewise this macho drinking culture that prevails in the military is to my mind immature and representative of a neanderthal mindset that has no place in the modern world. However I recommend that you read a few books on RAF/RFC history, I think you'll find that there are some stark similarities in attitude and outlook back in 1917 or 1943 to today. But I return to that attribute 'military Bearing' that is so obviously missing from the modern RAF. Although Trenchard set the RFC aside from the rest of the Army because it was a technical Service, it didn't mean that he allowed everything to be so different that all aspects of militaryness were diluted.

No, you continue to skirt the core issue, you believe that because you think society is different from your youth enormous allowances must be made to accommodate this new culture and that those who don't are long in the tooth dinosaurs. Think again matey. Yes the Services are representative of todays' culture, but that must not mean that we have to concede to everything, otherwise when, heaven forbid we do engage in a major conflict, we won't have the people with the right robust outlook. Some of the RAF people that I have encountered on austere OOA dets have made me weep and hang my head in shame. I go back to an earlier comment, what I am getting now are civilians in uniform and to me this is a concession to modern society too far.

In my trade the quality of airman is certainly getting poorer, below average trade and service knowledge, no interest in the RAF or aviation, an unwillingness to learn any more than they feel is necessary, virtually no dedication or devotion to duty and so on. You might find that these requirements are mirrored exactly in civvy street so I ask the question, are we really getting the best of what is out there as some fondly imagine or simply the best of the worst? Or put another way, are we really getting the misfits of society!

Although it must be said that there are an awful lot of extraodinarily weak JNCO/SNCOs/JO doing the rounds that, I believe, are contributing directly to many of the problems outlined above. But that is an issue outside the scope of this discussion.

[Nil nos tremefacit]

Interestingly the RM advert showing in cinemas makes it quite clear what the training is like and finishes with '99.99% need not apply'. The new RAF ad perhaps should finish with 00.01% need not apply.

Don't think the new ad would work with me, but I wasn't influenced by ads. Personally I don't think that the RAF is looking for a standard recruit and that is the problem. So many different trades and jobs require so many different styles, but I don't remember any of them being geared at the lovey dovey image in the new ad.

When I tried to treat junior ranks in the style shown I was taken aside by OCAdmin and told not to do any such thing. I was b@llocked as a junior officer for trying to help out an airman with very severe personal problems. Plus ca change.

[Biggus]

I haven't actually seen the ad in question, not a big TV person, so I can't comment specifically. However, it will be ironic, and another waste of taxpayers money, if, after the defence review in April, we end up making people redundant after this burst of recruiting!!!

[Maple 01]

Firstly FYI I have a very good memory and appreciate exactly what I was like at 17 thanks, however the fact that I made SNCO in TG9 (OSM/FOM) in less than 9 years tells me that I was doing something right!

The problem with these forums (someone with a degree in 'the classics' please tell me the plural) is that it's possible to take stuff personally - the comment about old 6442s was meant to suggest that 'we' as a group (including those on the receiving end of 7500s) weren’t the paragons of virtue we are today when we were young recruits and perhaps we should cut the kids some slack – not all the time – just as appropriate. Unless you think we should run the place like ‘Get some In?’ As for 9 years to Sgt, 'Super Tecs' used to make Chief around the time of puberty ISR.......

No, you continue to skirt the core issue,
I thought the core issue was the pi$$ poor recruitment advert -
Then someone slagged off the juniors - are all your guys cr@p? Most of mine are switched-on cookies.

(Banter alert) TG9 - isn't that like TG12, only not as bright....?


your recollections of daring do impress no one, least of all me.

Not mine mate, I think you misunderstand what I'm getting at, 'the old farts' talk about the 'good old days' when a J/T could be told to sweep the snow off the wing of a Vulcan with no safety kit and risk life and limb into the bargain - and give the impression that's how it should be today. I disagree, H&S saves lives. many of the 'petty rules' save lives, so does that FS nonsense too.

Likewise this macho drinking culture that prevails in the military is to my mind immature and representative of a Neanderthal mindset that has no place in the modern world.

Agree, but we've all done it.

Trenchard set the RFC aside from the rest of the Army because it was a technical Service, it didn't mean that he allowed everything to be so different that all aspects of militaryness were diluted.

'Boom's' dead mate, society has moved on. That means the military has to change with the times or die - you don't have to like it:p.

Just to clarify my position a little, I was working on the assumption that the accusation

The majority of junior SAC's in the Service today, in my opinion, are frankly a waste of skin.

was unfounded, I'm not defending recruits(as I seldom see them), and of course the military ethos needs to be impressed on them during basic/trade. But after that fully fledged airman/JOs deserve to be treated with respect - they volunteered after all.

Most of the guys (PC, covers Male and Female) doing the job day-to-day do the best they can

On the subject of unmilitaryness:

I remember a series of letters in the RAF news during the first Gulf War in response to a photo of 'plumbers' which showed them working their wotzits off in a mixture of dress, civilian, mil, sunglasses, bandanas etc. One of the 'Old brigade' wrote in complaining about their lack of 'militaryness'.

Two weeks later an ex Eng WO from the Desert Air Force (1943)
wrote in to say that in his day no-one gave a toss what you looked like as long as the job was done. An extreme case I grant you. Job first, military bull$hit second.

So no more impromptu history lessons please!

Regards

-nick

[rej]

Just logged on and saw this thread.

The advert is Bo!!##**s, what a waste of money. Could it be time to renew the IIP certification 'cause the advert sure as hell won't recruit anyone

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Two points:

Firstly, I agree that the advert is not exactly inspiring. Did we actually PAY someone to come up with that load of nonsense?

Secondly, following on from the DH98/Maple 01 spat, I personally don't think the quality of basic recruits has changed noticeably. My view is that the quality of leadership and direction we give these young people (at all levels from JNCO to senior officer) has degraded. This is why we are getting "poor" airmen.

[insty66]

WBS
Are you sure the standards have slipped? Or could it be that the NCO's and above do not have the same set of leadership and management tools to work with? I have been lucky enough to have worked for a lot of people who knew how to use both carrot and stick For what it's worth now, I believe that the carrot is old and wrinkly and the stick is only an inch long. I've also worked for plenty that didn't know what a carrot is:}

Mrs insty saw the ad and she called it "A crock of sh1te" she's cleverer than me you see:hmm:

[Fg Off Kite]

Can anybody out there enlighten us as to how much this rubbish cost?

I cannot imagine any connection between the rediculous scenario portrayed and a fighting force where you have to be prepared to go or to send folk to their death.

Maybe I'm missing some subtle irony in the message but I've never seen a more inappropriate advert for the Armed Forces.

After 20 years of service I've never had as much as a plaster for the stab wounds in my back or my injuries from the misplaced cricket bat.

[Blacksheep]

The RAF has always been a bunch of civilians in uniform. It was so in the forties, it was thus in the sixties and from what is said here it still is, thank goodness. The RAF has always done its job as required and the fact that being studiously un-military is part of its traditional make-up is of no reflection upon its capability.

Check out these examples. Admittedly most of them are taken while on detachments but then the 'V' Force were always required to smarten up when going abroad on detachment.

Luqa (http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/vulcan_people/tea_luqa.jpg) Goose Bay (http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/vulcan_people/benandjerry.jpg) 32 Squadron Drill Squad (http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/vulcan_people/35sqn_masirah.jpg) Butterworth (http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/vulcan_people/nc_butterworth.jpg)

These bunches of scruffs were Britain's main defence against the Red Terror back in the sixties. Despite our appearance we could and would have deep-fried the Soviet Union without batting an eyelid, no messing, at just under two minutes notice.

So no insulting the scruffs. Being military isn't all about creased trousers, and shiny boots, nor is it about crisp orders, straight backs and stiff upper lips. Its about getting the job done in any conditions, anywhere, anytime. A bit like civilian life actually... ;)

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[DodgyOpsGuy]

DH98

A recent comment that came from my trade training establishment (FOTF - TG9 FOA/FOA ATC) was that the recruits are coming from Halton as ill disciplined and showing no respect for rank or authority, strange really as Shawbury is a training establishment and therefore is able to instill these attributes, instead all the staff do is bleat!

If you think the quality of the recruits leaving Shawbury is a problem, then why not apply for a post there? Everyone goes on about the standard that leaves there. Wish people like you would either put up or shut up. If you are that good on the front line, give some of it back to the trade instead of running off and PVRing.

The instructors at Shawbury work hard, especially at JNCO level, get up there and have a look what goes on. Its not an easy job, but takes more skill than compiling a stationary order.

Hope none of your juniors read this, must be nice for them to know that their "boss" thinks of them as "misfits of society". Wow, I would follow you to the bar any day, no maybe I wouldnt especially if you are wearing your nice pink slacks

[EESDL]

Priceless ad.
PR marketing firm will have researched the youngsters of today and come up with a product that would guarantee the best outcome. In other words - the ad is deemed correct for the aspirations of today's yoof. Or charge a fortune and not actually spend it on the research/imagination department.
Money well spent - it was either spend money on an ad that insults the cadre of folk already Serving or procure another useless IT project.
Bollax to all that.

[Blacksheep]

Nanook of the North eh, Mike? They must have smartened up a lot since my time then. Any of our Crew Chiefs would have cut the finger off rather than f8ck around trying to get a splinter out. Some of them might even have managed to get the correct finger.too! ;)

Actually I was responding to those who were whingeing about lack of discipline. Apart from the 3 years at Aylesbury Boot Camp, discipline isn't a word that I associate with the air force that taught me all I know about keeping piles of scrap aluminium off the ground. No discipline apart from tradesmanship and pride in the job that is.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Ombit]

If you think the quality of the recruits leaving Shawbury is a problem, then why not apply for a post there? Everyone goes on about the standard that leaves there. Wish people like you would either put up or shut up. If you are that good on the front line, give some of it back to the trade instead of running off and PVRing.

He! He!



The instructors at Shawbury work hard, especially at JNCO level, get up there and have a look what goes on. Its not an easy job, but takes more skill than compiling a stationary order.

Couldn't agree more!

Hope none of your juniors read this, must be nice for them to know that their "boss" thinks of them as "misfits of society".

I'm sure they already have an opinioin on what HE is like!

[Tigerma]

EESDL

...the ad is deemed correct for the aspirations of today's yoof.

My daughter and her friend (squeaky new air cadet) saw the ad for the first time last night. Reaction? "What was that about?" and "OK, now I'm confused, was that the RAF?"

Well worth the ad agency fees... :p

[forget]

Beags, Your ‘Even 'Aerocrats' was better in the late '60s!!’

Reminds me of my name for 60’s dog handlers. Plutocrats. Gerrit??

Oy! - Blacksheep. What’s this ‘bunch of scruffs at Butterworth’. Cheeky! That’s me on the right I’ll have you know. Smart as a ………?

[Another St Ivian]

I just saw the advert myself. As part of the demographic I presume they are trying to target I had been expecting something that would appeal to me as a 'yoof' and sell the RAF to me....

.....how wrong I was :ugh:

I think the RAF Recruiters need to look at getting the Army's ad designers in, the latest round of Army and TA recruitment adverts have been really good. Hard hitting, interesting and evoked an interest in the service.

[Yellow Sun]

Beagle wrote:

Didn't some ex-F4 senior bod actually PVR and then do his time on the tills at some shop or other before taking over management of a large retail organisation? Can't recall who/what/when.....

Ally Mackay, staish at Bruggen (might have been Wildenrath). I had a brief conversation with him in the WOC as I passed through and a month later bumped into him wrapping a pair of trousers in Robert Sayle's in Cambridge. That must have been late '89. First knew him at Cranwell, he was on 91D, he was one of the best.

YS

[whowhenwhy]

Sorry, haven't read all the pages but has anyone heard the radio recruitment ad? Job interview for some nude modelling job for a painting class! As the interviewee goes through the motions of asking the questions he begins to feel like it's all a bit of a cushy number at which point the narrator comes on asking whether if you want to feel "this valued" you should join the RAF. Sorry, I'd suggest that A. as has been mentioned this is not an inspiring ad for people to join up. As has been mentioned think fast pointy things, with other stuff floating around. But B, if you want to feel valued would you really want to join up? Feel valued and get sent overseas, away from your loved ones, without the kit you need to keep you safe and secure, for months at a time and don't get paid enough to do it. Oh and worry even more about said loved ones because they live in sh1te accommodation (see DHE thread!).

[Blacksheep]

Just caught an ad on BBC World last night with lots of air-to-air clips of the Red Sparrers doing their stuff while their CO does a talk through. Very interesting, and very professionally done - more like a mini-documentary. Air displays are pretty PC I suppose, but I noticed there wasn't any mention of weapons or warfare. That ad should attract a few new aspiring FJ drivers, but I wonder how many backroom people it might also pull in along with them? And why show it on BBC World? Are the RAF recruiting foreigners (again) now?

Mebbe the recruiters have been reading PPRuNe?

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Krystal n chips]

With regard to the comments about the latest recruiting ad.-- it gets worse !. Below, a verbatim copy from the Manchester Evening News---which may have also appeared in other local media. Read on.

MINICAB DRIVERS

WANTED FOR LOCAL AREA

Expect to receive :

# Free massage at the end of every shift

# No hold ups on the A40

# One famous passenger guaranteed every week

# Tourists who can't distinguish between a £10 and £20 pound note

# Friday night revellers who've "been ill" prior to boarding

# Fare dodgers who can't run very fast

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feel this valued

In any one of our 70 careers

Call xxxxxxxxx RAF ( and roundle )

Now this was, I assume, a serious advert for the RAF !!. Frankly, a semi-skilled / literate ferret could do a better job. If you really get bored, have a look at the equally bland website. Have a look at the "Week in the life"--of the Eng.O. It's a sort of " Bunty goes to Leuchars" fantasy. Although it could be true of course:yuk:
However, the point is this. I have constructed one than one Marketing Communications Strategy and frankly the advert in question, plus the supporting adverts / website, are unlikely to attract any serious applicant to the RAF. Today's "yoof" may be a shade inert , but they are much more inquisitive than many of their predecessors. Consequently, they are not going to be impressed by the bland and surreal type of adverts pushed in front of them. More importantly, the blandness does NOT show the RAF in a positive light---always useful when you are trying to advertise and market a product !
I will be perfectly happy to construct a new campaign if anybody from the CIO world is reading this by the way-----for £££'s obviously :ok:

[country calls]

This ad is one of the worst in a long list. But may have been cleverly placed and aimed at parents of the current generation of little darlings.

The recruiters haven't got the money to place it in the prime spots for the demographic it is aimed at, so it goes into the middle of programmes no 17 year old would ever watch. However, they are seen by mums and dads who like to think that their little bunnykins wont get the same treatment as grandad did on National Service. Bunnykins to parents: Im thinking of joining the army. Parents to Bunnykins: no my little darling, join the RAF, because they care!

The ad would have no effect on a 17 year old anyway, as recruiters are running under the misconception that the target audience never reads a newspaper. They will never see the story of the man who died from chest wounds because he didnt have body armour. Shortage of boots? Guns that dont work? Pension scheme about to be destroyed? Defence cuts? Todays yoof don't know about that because they are too busy playing with Lara Croft.

WRONG! I have a 19 year old nephew who if there ever is one is a waste of skin. He has had a number of jobs since leaving school, his longest lasting 7 weeks. BUT, he reads a paper every day for his horse racing tips. And the name of the paper? The Daily Sport, which bless it, has run all the above stories in between pictures of scantily clad ladies. And he has taken enough notice to ask me about them.

So, let us take some of the media budget and buy lots of kit that works, then get the stories in the papers that read " British Forces welfare packages to match US ones, in deal to buy air conditioners for every tent in the inventory" " Chancellor rules that all servicemen will get a tax rebate for time spent away" Things to entice people into this job, rather than Mc Donalds; who lets face it care more about their staff anyway

I would be interested to know how much this ad cost, and then make every recruiting NCO ask as their first question, did this ad make you come in here today? And dont even get me started on the budget that the equal opportunities/ethnic recruitment people have wasted since that began!!!!

[DH98]

Warming up nicely!

Incidentally, most of TG9 are unskilled, ill informed and amatuerish, you one of them dodgyopsguy?

You know what they say about teachers, those who can't................

[Nil nos tremefacit]

Presumably this ad is about the present RAF and those of us who felt that we weren't always valued whilst we were in can't report it to the ASA:confused:

[flyboy007]

This latest ad, has to be the biggest load of cr%p ever (although in very close competition with the "Investors in people" stickers everywhere). I was lost for words on seeing that ad for the first time; besides, I was laughing too hard to speak! No doubt such a punchy ad will attract a real bunch of gung-ho fighters, stamping their feet in anticipation of their first splinter. Imagine in their stampede to sign up, the splinter hungry masses trample each other. Not a promblem though; the Company will care for them!!!!
Oh to be so disillusioned!

[Talking Radalt]

Nothing new. Read this from a couple of years ago.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39120&perpage=15&highlight=advertising%20guru&pagenumber=1

Re the comments towards the end....
I'm still waiting for the phone to ring:rolleyes:

[Runaway Gun]

Flyboy007, I'd love to see the advertising they used to grab your soul... :E

[NURSE]

is this the add with the checkout boy with the skelf in his finger?
Not seen it through i just change channel whats it all about.

almost as bad as the 'I command a TA recce section' add

[BEagle]

Ironic that this $hite advert should be shown in the ad break of the Ch4 'Spitfire Ace' programme last night! Sublime to ridiculous in 30 seconds..

Heard another good 'Be the best' advert for the Army on the radio whilst driving home yesterday - well done Army, whoever the designer-stubbled pony-tailed luvvies are who produce the load of cr@p for the RAF could learn a lesson from you!

[buoy15]

I remember some years ago the Inspector of Recruiting - a 1star - visited a crew room at ice station kilo to 'meet the lads' Within earshot of some hairy old masters he asked his PSO "What are all thes SNCO's doing here?"
I have also flown with numerous groundies who said they had been assured by the CIO that if they signed up to be a policeman (etc) right now!! - they could apply to be a pilot later on. :ok:
On a similar tack, the present round of leaflets and posters would suggest that the only aircraft in our inventory are Torphoos and Tynados
The thrill of a cheap buy is soon numbed by the pain of poor quality:{

[Semicolon]

Beagle is quite right when he says from the sublime to the ridiculous in 30 secs.

The RAF had a perfect opportunity for a 2 min ad which would appeal to the latter day 'few' in waiting. Courage, dedication professionalism etc etc. Instead we got a PC advert showing that if you've got a cold you'll be excused that irritating scramble or that monotonous mission over enemy territory.

Can anyone shed any light on who passed these ads as suitable material to attract potential military aircrew?

[Talking Radalt]

How about....
A centre spread in The Sun detailing a day in the life of a well known South Atlantic penguin colony where boisterous yoofs in the prime of life get to:
Ar$e around in front of a captive audience of totty, (sometimes naked, the yoofs and/or the totty),
Jig around in a condemned and dimly lit Portakabin,
Watch last months big screen hits for a quid,
Do every sport they can imagine,
Be consoled by an adoptive "mum" of the WRVS and her home-made bread pudding, (no laughing at the back)
Get pi$$ed for a fiver (per week)
See some great wildlife with a free helicopter ride thrown in...
....or has it been done?
"Allegedly" the recruiters were snowed under after that edition.

"What would you like to be? A policeman, a chef, a driver?" :\
"Don't care! When can I go to the Falklands?!" :D

[MovinWings]

I was unlucky enough to see the 'Super Market, Splinter' episode the other night. Having been in a 'few' years, I will say that I have never in my life see a bigger load of Cr@p!

At best, it will touch and and motivate the worthless and weak of the world....... But probably, it will just cost a small fortune, and provide nothing but ridicule.

Pointless, Pathetic, Politically Correct, Pi$$ing Cr@p.


MW

[Beeayeate]

Think about it. Some young bloke will see the ad, think to himself "Cool", and join. Then. . .

. . . gets his finger ripped by a bit of locking wire while working deep inside an aircraft. Becomes totally disillusioned when nobody takes a blind bit of notice - Staish doesn't come running, concerned individuals don't gather around and gently lead him to a nice cup of tea with visitor's biscuits. In fact all that happens is he gets a bo££ocking from the Chiefy for bleeding on the airframe! :hmm:

Result? Yet another "yoof" who can't wait to get out 'cos the mob don't give a toss!

Wren said it all years ago . . .

http://www.canberra.plus.com/pics/Wren.jpg

[Blunty]

I cannot help but wonder if the makers of the advert are extremely clever. The advert is so bad everbody, and their dogs, rip it apart and say the RAF is not like that. Endless debates persue, pages of Pprune comments, etc etc. So have they achieved there aim of promoting the RAF......................

[Talking Radalt]

". . . gets his finger ripped by a bit of locking wire deep while working inside an aircraft"

Emergency state one! Emergency state one! Sumpy JT...ickle splinter...fore-finger of right hand. Emergency state one! emergency state one! :O

[BEagle]

Blunty - yes, the 'it might be a cr@p advert, but it's getting the customer's product talked about' is indeed a self-gratifying piece of nonsense often trotted out by advertsing luvvies.

Doea anyone seriously think that this utter rubbish will have a positive effect on recruiting?

[Blunty]

BEagle - agree totally. When I was in recruiting the people who came through the door wanted to be one of the 3 P's (Pilot, Policeman or PTI). We never had any problems recruiting for any branches or trades and I think that is still the case. Maybe the education establisments should concentrate on life skills and not coaching to pass exams!

[Ombit]

DH98

Incidentally, most of TG9 are unskilled, ill informed and amatuerish, you one of them dodgyopsguy?

Excuse me, but didn't you say you were TG9. Because if that's the case, isn't it a case of pot calling kettle......

Or am I to assume that the 'Most' doesn't refer to your obvious, extremely professional, ****** retentive, Self Important self?????

I am proud, to call myself TG9 :O[Await banter]. And in the xx amount of years I have served, I can honestly say almost all TG9 I have worked with have been of the utmost prossionalism. I have only ever had problems with the ones who have a self obsessed, over-rated opinion of themselves - get my drift DH98!!!!!!

Obviously, you will be sadly missed when you leave your unit. But I wouldn't wear your best clothes when your station has 'DH98's leaving' party, because it's obviously going to be THEIR celebration!

Phew! Now I've had my rant, back to the subject!

Yes the advert is bl**dy awful. When I first saw the manager closing the store because of a splinter, I was laughing. Then when I saw it was an advert for the RAF my face dropped.

However, it is an improvement on the advert from the eighties! You know the one - no dialogue, just a Tornado flying low level followed by the message 'The Royal Air Force'. It seems they are trying to improve things, they've just gone completely off track [or is that on-Crack]!

[DH98]

Ombit,

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. I think you'll find that I can't wait to leave and put as much space between me and the half trained muppets in the trade. Excluding the controllers, most of you are nothing more than glorified ATC Admin! Now be a good chap, bog off and bore somebody else with another airfield driving brief, and when you've done that the SATCO would like one sugar in his tea.

[Molesworth Hold]

I’m glad to see TG9 is the same as always. I agree with almost all of what DH98 says, but not necessarily the way he says it.

The basic recruit is probably much as he/she ever was, but they seem to be less mature, probably because they have only known an educational environment. I was a total and utter tw@t when I joined up but I would, like to think that the training sorted that out (although many will disagree.) The real challenge is working out ways to get through to today’s yoof, the methods that worked in the past certainly don’t work now.

For the people who are fond of quotes, how about this one, from an LAC that I “work” with:
----------------------------
“I don’t do Fridays”
----------------------------

Just to add to the TG9 pi$$ing contest I expect that FOTF is the same den of vice that TTF was.

[Matt Black]

Good theory, that it is designed to get the RAF talked about, but having had to deal with media types in the past, I suspect this is off the mark.

Having said that, it was bloomin' hilarious to watch - I'm sure most people, RAF or not, would think it a joke to see their employer portrayed in this light.

Prolly just an ad-exec's idea, which everyone round the table agreed with, because he or she spoke the loudest. Pretty good chance (IMHO) they don't even know what the RAF is, never mind what they do...

[QuidProQuo]

For what it is worth, have the recruiters got under the skin of people and really understood what people (for that read - potential recruits to ALL trades and branches and serving personnel) really want - to be valued. I only make this comment as I was talking to a SNCO the other day who had decided to PVR. Lots of reasons for making his decision but he did say that he felt no one cared as no one had spoken to him about his decsision, PMA had not called him to ask why etc etc etc. Perhaps, although why might not want to admit it coz we are all roughy toughy military types, we do like to be cared about?

[Scud-U-Like]

Back to basics, I say: A Tiger Moth with a Raymond Baxter voiceover. If that doesn't draw the youth, automaton-like, to the recruiting office, then what will?

Surely the success or otherwise of this ad ought to be judged on its measurable effect on recruiting, in those advertising regions in which it is aired. Perhaps people should reserve judgment, until the end of the campaign.

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

I must say when I first had the misfortune to see the “Ad” I was embarrassed to say the least. However when number one daughter, who now resides some miles away, visited this weekend our conversation regarding her joining up came to the forefront again.

I mentioned the ad in the hope of prompting a response. I did get one! The quote “it was a bit strange!” was the first, followed by “I want to work for someone who cares about people like that!” So it appears that to the younger generation it may have hit the mark??:hmm:


I believe in my many years that it’s the people or team around you that care not the necessarily the senior management, but that is what makes us in the military unique from the normal civilian workforce.:ok:


I have subsequently explained this to her and she wholly accepts that as fact. However the advert has not put off one potential little (even though at 15 she’s nearly as tall as me) convert to the cause.:O


Please before I’m accused she has her own agenda for joining and I for one applaud it. At least she can learn from my mistakes!!!
:p

[Talking Radalt]

“I want to work for someone who cares about people like that!”

Yeah me too. Anyone got any recommendations? :hmm:

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

Talking Radalt

May I suggest you watch the advert! LOL

Tescos ...ASDA...Safeway......Happy Shopper....or

SPAR NAAFI ?

My Ex wife and her partner both work for one of the above, hence my daughters first choice of an RAF career when leaving school. Her starting wage as a trainee AC is more than either of them earn! At 16 she has no worries of accommodation to find or putting food on the table. Although there has been erosion of the Ethos and Lifestyle afforded in my early career, for a young adult, given 6 or 9 years work history with the training now given, will out way 75% of these wishy washy degrees now given out in subjects such as David Beckham! etc. In achieving this she would have received a very decent wage for her age, and could still take up further education to further her career NVQ/Open University, paid for by the MOD. Sales pitch over!

:D

[Scud-U-Like]

And don't forget the free dental treatment, nominal Council Tax charge, non-contributory pension, free gym membership, subsidised bar (go easy) and the other fringe benefits.

[insty66]

And don't forget the free dental treatment, nominal Council Tax charge, non-contributory pension, free gym membership, subsidised bar (go easy) and the other fringe benefits.
very decent wage for her age,

Thats what they should put in the adverts plus lots of aeroplanes (that is what the RAF is about) The slogan is I believe quite good "Rise above the rest" at least as good as the Armys "be the best" and far better than " The team works" What's that all about? Please no teamwork lectures all 3 services have teamworking skills that other organisations would be very pleased to have as a matter of routine.

[Phoney Tony]

Just seen the advertisement for Benefit Fraud.

Looks far more rewarding/ interesting/ profitable with a sense of purpose.

Going to sign up next week!

[Talking Radalt]

"And don't forget the free dental treatment, nominal Council Tax charge, non-contributory pension, free gym membership, subsidised bar (go easy) and the other fringe benefits."

OK, fair point, we don't do too badly, but...all of the above are about being "looked after" which isn't the same as an overall "feeling" of being valued. Those held in HMPs across the country enjoy roughly the same standard of living and many of the same facilities (if not more) as junior ranks who live in SLA. But how "valued" do you think those prisoners feel?
I make use of all of the facilities mentioned and trust me I'm not ungrateful, but feeling cared for or appreciated or at times even acknowledged as a person doesn't come from cheap housing, swimming pools and free beer. You can be living in a 12'x12' on Salisbury Plain and feel more valued than loafing around a hotel in Vegas, by something as simple as having a boss who gives a $hit (personally got no complaints there)
For me the key is a visible appreciation of what we do, Airships who actually listen and then act on what those at the coalface tell them, execs who know when to say "Stop" and aren't pressurised in to making do, equipment scaling based on what's really needed and so on.
You can have all the material perks in the world but if the worker ants are too busy or too pi$$ed off to make use of them they mean nothing.

[EESDL]

Beags - what do you mean "at least it has us talking about it"!!!! I suggest to you that that amounts to a barrel load of nowt has we are only talking about it because we've been in or are in the Mob and are cringing about the content. An outsider fewing the ad will, I expect, knob off to the City and stay a million miles away from such a pathetically portrayed 'Company'. Maybb, they'll go and make a fortune working for the PR firm that sold us down the river.

Insty66 - you've got a great deal there matey, for at my last review I, and thousands others, were actually contributing to our Pension. I'd keep quiet if I was you, you're on a winner there.

[Talking Radalt]

"An outsider fewing the ad will, I expect, knob off to the City and stay a million miles away from such a pathetically portrayed 'Company'"

Nail, on head, squarely hit, satis.
I've got no complaint with the "We look after our own" theme because in all honesty we do. Civvy mate of mine was eligible to dine in a JRM recently at a part civvy/part military thing and was astounded by the standard of food, decor and the overall atmosphere.
"What did you expect?!" I asked "Something out of Full Metal Jacket?":O
"Errrr, well yes" :uhoh: was the reply.

So yes, we do have a lot to offer on the warm and fluffy front, but as EESDL says, this advert shows it in a completely and utterly misrepresentative context.

[insty66]

All I meant was that was what they should put in the adverts. I do have a very poor boss and currently feel as if my value to the job is lower than " a snakes ass in a wagon rut".
The ad lies and that is one of the reasons it is a poor ad.
When I joined it wasn't to be valued but to be able to work on military a/c and go to lots of fun and new places. I've done those and for the most part enjoyed it. It's just that after xx years you do need to feel valued I never needed it when I was 18 but it would be nice now.
Prisoners well thats another story!! My room at Laarparts was 6 foot wide 11 foot long (Ish) the window wasn't a good fit and I loved living there plus no-one came and woke me up! god knows I needed it on several occasions.:yuk:

[cheekeymonkey]

Lets face it, the new advert is pish, and panders to the PC culture we are nurturing our boys and girls to adopt...!

I remember seeing an advert at IOT many moons ago, shelved before it was released as the board thought it too graphic...! Was punchy, hard hitting and had bags of WOW factor...! and it's slogan: Since the war to end all wars...there have been 54 others..." (this over film footage of SHF in Africa - staged tho)...then it ended with the RAF roundal, and said "their country needs you"...any one else remember seeing it...!?

Thats the sort of recruitment we need....!

Monkey

[Anton Meyer]

What about keeping it simple with the yoof- in my experience dealing with the minties, what they like to see are attractive people doing jobs they enjoy.

So...

Handsome pilots and jets, good looking adminers, beautiful doctors, rakish chefs, etc etc.
Call them by first names, have them running around smiling.

People they can look at and want to be, or get to know!

Bob's your uncle.

[theundisputedtopgun]

In my opinion the navy are heading in the right direction. Just watched blue peter where they had a presenter having a go flying the Lynx. It only showed flying, but that may get people down the AFCO to find out more who then find other interesting career choices within the service. Plus it was on at the right sort of time - just before neighbours, when a large number of young people flock to their tv sets. (i don't watch blue peter by the way, just changed the channel from snooker!)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Meanwhile the RAFs greatest source of quality recruitment - the Air Training Corps - is being starved of funds, finds diminishing support from operational stations and serving staff ( I know stretch is to blame ) and sees its budget diminished whilst being drizzled with PC EA and H&S bull.

Crikey it makes me mad to see the largest most valuable youth organisation in the country be neglected to death at a time when all manner of people are wringing their hands about the Youth Of Today.

Well listen up - Wet Pants. Life isn't the Womens Auxillary Balloon Corps. Teenagers want to be taught to shoot rifles, drill, go on Night Ex's, fly aeroplanes, go on expedition and do all sorts of other wonderful challenging things. Its good for them and its a damn good way of providing the forces with essential personnel as a by product.

If we could just divert a fraction of the money showered on "youth" and "community" 'projects' administered by left wing numpties into the Air/Army/Naval Cadets we could do wonders for both the country and the military.

Unfortunately the Socialists are in charge and instead Youths are encouraged to make their own 'Garage music' and exhibit their 'Grafitti Art'.

Cheers

WWW

ps - spot whose old ATC unit has just been threatened with closure because they only have 22 super enthusiastic members yet are forbidden from advertising in local schools..

[sex it up]

Whilst the ad is somewhat misleading in the value stakes, I think we are already spending too long wiping the a*se of many of the people we have. We are fostering a nanny force where individuals have stopped thinking for themselves. :*

[MilOps]

Interesting thread, I tend to agree with most of what is said here.
From my experience over the last few years the standard of bod joining up has markedly deteriorated, and no I am not a 'In my day' merchant. For me the fundemental problem lis that many forget the RAF is a military organisation and not some hiding place from the harshness of the real world that offers job security; too many people I think, have joined on the wrong premise. Additionally there are real issues emerging with comptency, initiative, resourcefulness et al. It seems an awful lot of todays yoof feel that they can apply minimum effort and still advance, and the sad fact is, many do!
Personally I place the blame more at the feet of many of the seniors who seem unwilling to be a little more forceful and apply too much misguided fluff and tree hugginess in an environment that at the end of the day deals in a grotesque product. I've had all sorts, from know it all LACs to SACWs who are so emotionally immature that it beggars belief why they joined in the first place.
On a positive note, there are some excellent people out there at very junior levels who really should be the future of the Service, ironically many of them are disillusioned with their less able bretheren and are opting to leave and take their undoubted attributes elsewhere. The RAF's loss methinks.

[Biggus]

At the risk of opening up a big can of worms, here are some thoughts from an old git (40-50 age range) reference the 'yoof' of today!

First of all I am talking about aircrew, and Officers in the main. Now when I joined the RAF years ago, going via Biggin Hill for selection (yes, well I said I was old), all the aspiring candidates were avaition fanactics. They had been building airfix kits since about 10, read every aviation book they could get their hands on, been in the ATC, had gliding proficiencies, knowledge of the history and current structure of the RAF, knew which aircraft they wanted to fly, were well turned out, keen as mustard, ... . Well you get the drift.

Now cut to today. During general conversations on the Sqn it has come to my notice that quite a few of the young generation have no previous background in avaiation, and, when asked the question 'why did you join the RAF', answer something to the effect, ' I had to do something/get a job when I left university'. Or 'I had a couple of crap jobs and somebody suggested the military to me', etc, etc.....

Comments, agreement, rebutals, etc!

[FOMere2eternity]

Mil - what prompted the 'in my day' policy change?:}

The latest ad is not only totally misleading, but for me, an insult. I challenge anyone who's been in the Service over the last 5+ years to explain how they feel valued whatsover. And by that I don't mean being molly-coddled, I mean penny-pinching, short-sighted policies that are counter-balanced by quite bizarre wastes of money in other extremes. Moreover, LOTS of people I know (myself included) have felt far from valued when our lives (PIC numbers) are treated like a commodity, with scant disregard for any kind of life outside the Service. ie. short-notice OOA dets. Sure, it's a feature of all the wars we seem to get embroiled in, but even last week a friend of mine was given a week to deploy to Cyprus (hardly a recently acquired base) and then had it cancelled the day before .

At my base the lads are being forced to double-up - not just in transit! - because there's no money to build another block. In the mean time another friend who is recently married has been told to expect to share a 4-man room at his forthcoming posting for up to 6 months. Another friend is getting nowhere with DHE at her future posting despite leaving here in a couple of weeks, while she's being pestered by DHE here to get out of her current house ASAP! Her husband works an hour down the M4 (good day) and has been told her posting represents co-location!

So, LAC Bloggs might very well get posted here, perhaps with echoes of 'feeling valued' in his/her ears, to be stuck in transit ad infinitum, which currently is a cell-sized room with double - sometimes triple - bunk beds within. Presumably, once all those beds are full, we'll be pitching tents on the soccer pitch? because, let's face it, it would take a brave young lad to expose his mistreatment, so it will only continue.

In the mean time, Bloggs goes home to tell his mates about his life in the RAF and undermines the whole expensive recruitment package. As has been stated earlier in this post, one of the best forms of recruitment is Bloggs going home and telling everyone what a fantastic time he's having, how his SNCO's (and even officers!) actually DO care, rather than meet their cynical 'duty of care' commitments and not how he's got slightly less space than a prisoner, occasionally has hot water in his mildew-chewed (?) showers and has power and heating most of the week.

Chop the ads for now, spend the cash on infrastructure and then start harping-on about people being valued after some genuine investment has backed-up currently hollow claims. Never know, Bloggs might just stay in the Service then...

In the mean time, SNCO's and Officers: start taking an interest in your people, listen to them and flag-up the problems; you might just get a warm and fluffy feeling by earning true respect. However, if you are hellbent on career-progression, withdraw yourself from your important role as a leader and just sit there moaning about how bad it's got, you've got nobody but yourself to blame for the situation; enjoy the mess, the privileges and the scrotes calling you 'sarge/sir', but don't be surprised if Bloggs and his mates reflect your disinterest with theirs.

Feel This Valued? ...perhaps by your blokes, if you start working for them!

[Cpl_Bilko]

FOMere2Eternity, you have hit the nail on the head mate, It's no good using flash adverts, handouts, games etc to try and improve recruitment, the most effective way is to make people feel valued and this in turns ensures good word of mouth and more applicants. The armed forces recruit dispraportionately more in certain geographical areas (lower ranks i'm talking about here) and it is imperative that in these traditional areas and communities the creditability and attractiveness of a career in the forces is maintained by word of mouth. The North East, Yorkshire, some areas of Scotland / Wales, Liverpool and the NW always have and still do provide the bulk of military recruits, employment and regional prosperity in many of these areas is rising and that is the biggest problem that the recruiters need to overcome (Army even more than RAF) I train recruits and dispute a lot of what has been said on this thread, yes there is some **** flowing through the system but we can't always stop them before they reach their units, that's nothing new, what is new is the lack of ability/willingness of seniors and JOs to weed out or encourage as is necessary in each case. It's time a lot of the leardership started earning some of their pay by guess what, yes that's it, by leading, encouraging and training the juniors instead of bleating just like some of the poorer recruits they claim to have nothing in common with.

[sex it up]

Has anyone actually tried to 'weed out' an individual that is not cutting it? In my experience it is almost impossible to get rid of someone who is kicking the a*se out of the system. It is sad that, albeit a few, take liberties with the generally trusting attitude of the command chain. What I find most frustrating is the lack of lateral thought by many JRs. I have always employed a developmental attitude towards the JRs with mixed results, some react very positively and begin to actually think for themselves but the ones that don't, continue with the blinkered tunnel vision that protects them from doing any extra work. The problem stems from the attitude that is instilled at the basic training level. Whilst the trainer's attempt to instill some pride in each trade, by making their charges think that other trades are somehow inferior, this results in a general confrontational attitude between areas. I refer, of course to, ground pounders. No matter how much leadership you employ a small sliver of individuals remain impervious to any attempts to make them cognitive humans. Back to my original point, it is close to impossible to have your problem child removed........build a case is the cry of the admin guru's.

[FOMere2eternity]

sex

It is very hard to do away with an under-performer, but it depends whether they're bad boys or just lazy; in the case of the former, an Admin Discharge will eventually be raised against a continued felon, but for the process to happen swiftly they either have to murder someone or rob a bank early on in their crime spree. Someone who is continually late - for example - is afforded far more long-term rope to hang themselves before the final chop.

Going back to my rant about conditions, I think our willingness to recruit pretty much anyone who can walk into the CIO under their own steam is very much related. Nowadays statistics play a major part in who we end up employing - which is pretty much everyone! If we were to live up to the line 'pound for pound an air force that is second to none', by actually looking after those who are 'our greatest asset' then the word would soon filter down to todays youngsters. A happy workforce, treated well by our employees would soon generate an almost 'elite' status, as opposed to the current perception of 'the military will have anyone'.

LAC Bloggs can do this for us; all he has to do is pop back to his local pub, bronzed and happy, telling his mates the press stories about having no kit are bollocks, telling them he's got a fantastic room at airbase X, telling them his boss is encouraging him to take exams, telling them his SNCO has allowed him a week to go on a skiing exped, telling them he has to deploy again at the end of the year, but can take leave in the meantime, telling them how he really does feel valued!

Bloggs' mates will be storming the CIO's! CIO blokes then get the pick of Bloggs' mates and sex's problems diminish.

To put this in a nutshell; how many times have you looked forward to a detachment to a USAF MOB or FOB? The one reason it sounds like a good deal? They look after theirs and we all expect kit, facilities and decent conditions. How many times have you looked forward to a det at one of our MOBs ?!

The recipe for solving our quality and recruitment problems is remarkably simple, but it's about improving things inside the wire (conditions and policies) as opposed to fooling someone with glossy brochures and baseball hats emblazoned with roundels. To continue as we currently do is false economy in the extreme, because apart from temporarily bluffing the ignorant civvies at the CIO, we're also losing the enlightened new recruits already inside the wire! (or at very least their enthusiasm)

Hopefully someone high enough to make strategic decisions about the direction of the RAF will realise this soon and re-adjust budgets sharpish! Recruiting quality people will require a degree of lateral thought, starting with a review of the post-recruitment landscape. Right now we're recruiting everyone we can into a military that's starting to resemble post-Cold War Russia's military. Moreover, the sooner we start talking within the Service and realise - irrespective of budgetary boundaries - we're all on the same side with the same overall targets, the better. This is not a time to be introspective!

:ooh:

[Biggus]

If anyone bothered to read my comments made on 13th Feb they will see that my observations tie in with FOMs view that these days we appear to recruit anyone that bothers to walk in off the high street! A sad state of affairs that says everything about the armed services of today. How can anyone feel pride in their service/trade etc if they know it is open to all. Elitism may be accused of building arrogance, and being non PC, but it also builds the pride, espirit de corps, etc , that is essential in an effective military force!

[Jobza Guddun]

FOM, Biggus,

Right behind you on this one. It does seem that we'll take anybody these days, allegedly even people who have admitted to smoking cannabis, but thats OK because they've said they don't/won't do it any more.

It wouldn't be so bad if you were allowed to sort problem people out with a weighty system, but our H&S policy and PC bullsh1t doesn't allow it. Recently we had a defaulter come to our place, he was plonked down in the crewroom with a pile of amendments for a couple of hours. With TV and brew facilities that wasn't exactly hard was it, and rarely have I felt so disappointed in a senior member of my sqn for letting someone off so easily. Whatever happened to scrubbing out in the messes (can't do that H&S apparently) or mucking out the saddle club etc. Problem is, people get fizzed, get a few nights of pathetically minor inconvenience, and aren't bothered by the experience, thus reoffend.

I'm not advocating for a minute a dictatorial zero-tolerance regime, but I think NCO's and officers could at least be given the confidence that they can throw the book at someone to keep them in line, rather than feeling that the offender has the cards stacked in their favour as many of us currently feel.

Lower standard recruiting does not have to be the problem it appears to be if difficulties are allowed to be resolved as they should be.

[Cheeks]

Slighty OT

What does anyone think of the quality of recruits coming from the Cadet Forces? Are they better? More mature? Overcomfident? Do they try to work the system?

[johnfairr]

I am extemely new to this web-site and regret not finding out about it earlier. I have spent hours reading any number of threads, all of which remind me that this country has had, and still has some outstanding people in its Armed Forces.

The level of potential recruits will always reflect society at that time as will the incumbent squadron members wherever they may be.

Having ingested the RAF since I was knee-high to a grasshopper it was the only career I wanted to have; sadly two OCU bosses did not see it that way and despite being keener than a Professor of Keeness at Oxford University, I parted company with the RAF. Still, time spent in the back of an FGR2, albeit only 60 hours, and 300 hours over the North Sea as a potential Anyface, have given me experiences that you could not buy and I wouldn't trade that for anything.

My sons always knew of my interest in the RAF, the photos, one complete room of flying books, staring up at the sky whenever I heard a plane, tended to be a bit of a giveaway. At 16 the eldest decided he wanted to fly the Eurofighter, helped by the EF2000 sim game, which necessitiated a new computer. He contacted the RAF, got all the griff and was settling into his A Levels quite nicely as well as flying at RAF Benson with his school CCF.

Towards the end of his studies he approached me somewhat diffidently and said he had something to tell me. Thoughts of pregnant waifs, or worse, a "friend" called Roger, assailed my brain and I decided we ought to discuss this over a pint. "Dad, would you be upset if I didn't join the RAF?" Thankfully returning my glass to the bar, I naturally said it was a matter for him to decide, but would be interested in his reasoning. "Well, if I join the RAF and I somehow get through all the courses and get on to fast jets, I might have to shoot somebody down or drop bombs on people and I am not sure I can do that." My initial reaction was one of relief, firstly that he had the courage to face up to this eventuality now as opposed to 10 years hence, and secondly that I and his mother would be spared the anguish of him going off to keep the peace at the behest of ill-informed politicians.

My father flew Spits in 1941-42 till he was shot down and my brother flew FGR2s for 20-odd years so I knew what my parents had been through. Not that it actually affects the person taking the risks ("It'll never happen to me, etc. etc. ").

The upshot of all this is that he is now at a UAS, having a ball flying the Grob Tutor and enjoying life as an O/C. Will he eventually join? I don't know, but I do know he has discovered that things actually work in the Forces, as opposed to Civvy Street. Commerce is not without its inherent faults and he still might square the circle, and his conscience, and end up as pilot.

Some things don't change. When I was going through Nav School I shared a room with a Green Shield F/L who was being posted to mud-moving FGR2s in Germany. His avowed intent, on things going wrong over there, was to be on the first ferry back!

On reflection, I side with Biggus and Jobza on this. The Forces still appears to be an excellent choice so long as you know the score before you take the plunge.

Sorry for the waffling, just thought it might help somebody make a choice.

[DodgyOpsGuy]

:hmm: Get the feeling that Milops and DH98 are one and the same.. Sad when you have to argue with yourself.

Shows how bored I was by reading all of their posts

[Melrin Dip]

I'll start this by saying that I'm in the Navy.

It seems strange to me that whilst you guys are whining onabout the standards of recurits you have probably never visited a careers office since you joined yourselves.

Standards for entry have not changed in the last 21 years that I have been in.

The people might have in their outlook and personality but not the recruiting system.

Next time you think of a good recruiting idea go down your AFCO and talk? weird idea I know, to the guys and girls doing a diffiuclt job.

[eagles70]

Nimrodnosewheel

I totally agree, the TV advert is the biggest lot of rubbish i have ever seen, and as for the airforce being caring and sharing its difficult enough to get an appointment at the medical centre let alone get said SPLINTER removed!!!!!

What idiots come up with these ideas??? I would love to know!!

E70

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Yeah, I wouldn't go to the Med Centre with a splinter. They'll probably downgrade you and refer you to a specialist in Peterboro'.....oh, there I go again

Go private! Even for a splinter.

[Maple 01]

Only if you fly, SPHLC - if you're a 'guin its two brufen and wait till Monday/Hell freezes over

-Nick