Volunteer Gliding School Futures

[Arclite01]

I see a lot of contributions on these forums from VGS personnel.

What do you all think the futures hold for the VGS's ?

What equipment should they have ?

How should they operate ?

Where do they fit in the overall RAF Flying Training Model etc ?

Thoughts Gents

Ta

Arc

[soddim]

I can only offer from my knowledge of instructing on VGS in the late 70s but I was impressed that we managed to solo more young pilots each year than the RAF regular training system. Whilst the RAF did not accept many of our youngsters that was their loss because all of ours were well motivated and gave up much of their spare time and cash to fly with us. I have no doubt that many of them would have served happily to 55 as long as they were flying - and that represents a much better training return than the RAF gets from most of its' pilots.

I believe money spent on VGS is money well spent and I would rather recruit from there than any university.

[BEagle]

The VGS do far more for recruiting people of the right sort than most other initiatives. Long may they continue to do so!

The Vigilant T Mk 1 is classified as a TMG, not as a SEP aircraft under JAR-FCL. So any ex-ATC people should be able to use their experience towards either a JAR-FCL PPL with TMG class rating, or a NPPL with SLMG rating. See either LASORS or www.nppl.uk.com for accreditation details. It is then quite straightforward either to add a SEP Class Rating to a JAR-FCL PPL or a SEP aircraft rating to a NPPL.

Hopefully, this - and/or microlighting - will encourage more youngsters into flying.

[The mother alligator]

I was a FSC on a VGS, and have now started EFT on a UAS. I also attended OASC about a month ago - and have been shortlisted for a GD(P) bursary. The training that I received through the VGS and ACCGS has been invaluable to my success to date. I believe going to OASC with the fact that you have been an FSC under your belt is a huge advantage over pretty much anything that you can do in the Air Cadet Organisation. The boarding officers are looking for an active interest in aviation from a young age, commitment to the forces - and being in a VGS is also character building. I am a big fan of the VGS system, and will do anything in order to support them.
Another thing is UAS's. I hear what has been said about studes not always being of the highest callibre, however, the UAS's do a very good job in training an ever increasing amount of student pilots. It is also the minority who let the team down, I know very few people in the UAS system who are p!llocks, so I think that people assume the worst when they meet only one.
Long live VGS's!!!!
TMA

[Spot 4]

The Waddington Air Show party would just not be the same without UAS chicks sliding naked from the roof of the marquee:ok:

I did VGS for a few years before joining and Aunty Betty has had nearly 3 decades from me. A lifelong friend who also attended the same VGS but pursued a civvie career is now an ATC VR(T) Officer, and I like to think that neither of us were scallywags.

Though the FS1-E beat the SS50 everytime and John Law did not appreciate to Jet Jock wannebees racing to the gliding school every weekend. "Trying to take off are we?"

Brian Trunkfield (Fairly well known in VGS circles)
"What do you want to do when you leave school?"
Answer "Jag pilot",
BT "After that landing, that figures!"

I know of a Harrier pilot, Jaguar pilot and SH mate who attended 635 VGS at that time.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ex-VGS student and instructor myself. I think the value for money of the VGS system is very high. Mostly free labour and utilisation of existing assets. However. I fear the axe is always looming these days. If someone somewhere spins it about a free flying club for middle class kids then it could be all over very quickly.

I'd like to see the VGS and the ATC movement push its profile politically.

The Socialists running this country are supposed to be keen on Youth Organisations and extra curricular participative activities. The ATC (I think) is now the biggest youth organisation in the country following the decline of scouting and the like. The range of activities, the values and the overall 'goodness' of being in the ATC for the average teenager is large indeed.

This needs highlighting loudly and often.

When I think back to those years... By the age of 17 I had flown solo, got an airside MT permit, scaled at least 40 mountains, stayed in RAFG, flow in countless helicopters, shot at Bisley, Bivvy'd in most parts of Wales, could talk at length about radio, navigation, met, engines, could night nav across the Brecon Beacons, could drill, could iron a shirt, polish my shoes and have a grasp of what leadership is actually about. Compared to many 17yr olds that was significant.

The ATC is in danger of being a bit worthily obscure.

They need a Max Clifford an Alastair Campbell and a Peter Mandelson.

Cheers

WWW

[HOODED]

All good sentiments folks BUT I find it very sad when an RAFGSA Gliding Club is being kicked out of it's airfield because the ATC Gliding school wants to move in another school using real gliders alongside the current school operating Motor Gliders. Whilst I myself went solo with the ATC many years ago, I find it incredible that I, as a serving member of the RAF, am no longer allowed to fly at Syerston as suddenly it is aparently too dificult for us to operate alongside the ATC schools. These schools are manned by VR(T) not full time serving members and although they do a good job for the RAF encoraging todays youth into flying, why is it they are so inflexable?
Try going to some civilian airfields where Power, Gliders, Microlights and even parachutists operate safely alongside each other.
Myself and many other members of the gliding club spend lots of time away working for our lords and masters and our recreation is now being taken away by one senoir officer who wants the whole airfield for his own part time Air Force.
I have no gripe with the majority of the people running these schools some of whom also find it amazing that we cannot operate safely alongside each other.
Maybe it's a sign of the times that VR(T) are now more important than Serving personnel!

[SPIT]

In 20 years with the ATC I found that a lot of the ordinary squadron VRT Officers were in it just for themselves being seen in the uniform. The Officers who had some Reg service or who manned the VGS@s or AEF's seemed to be a different type of person and would give all the time required for the benefit of the CadetsAlso the Seb Officers Wingco and above were very good types and were completely different to the JNR (VRT) officers. The Vgs and the Aef's deserve All the support that they can get. :mad: ::mad: :mad:

[soddim]

HOODED,

I agree that the RAFGSA should be permitted to operate alongside the VGS. I did just that for some time with a mix of motor and conventional gliders. However, it takes good leadership in both organisations and sensible flying orders to make it work safely. In my day it was always the RAFGSA who queered the pitch because their attitude and aims were quite different to the VGS. Nevertheless, with co-operation and the odd argument, we co-existed and I am sure it could be done at Syerston too.

[Arclite01]

Why would they want to mix winch launch and motor glider operations at Syerston ? - I'd have thought there were cost savings from having one standard type and operation on the site for the weekenders (ACCGS is a different kettle of fish).

Can't see the problem operating a mix of winch and motor if the Flying orders are clear and concise.

And why the GSA are being moved out is beyond me............

Where are the GSA going then ?

And does anyone have any other comments on the 'futures' for the VGS's ?

[HOODED]

Arclite01, Syerston operated motor gliders and a winch AND aerotow operation hapilly for years. The ATC had motor gliders and the RAFGSA club had winch, aerotow, and an ex ATC motor glider. Circuits were split by the runway the ATC guys were using with the RAFGSA operating from the grass doing opposite circuits in general.

The problem seems to be the ATC don't have enough motor gliders and they want to move a conventional gliding school in to Syerston. This obviously means the RAF guys must go!

Where will the RAFGSA club go? Well the club is split on this with some wanting to go to a civillian site at Saltby and others wishing to go to Wittering. My feeling is the club will be lost as not enough people will be prepared to move and make a go of it elsewhere. Some will go to Cranwell and some to Saltby I've even heard of Husbands Bosworth being mentioned. All very sad I'm afraid it'll just result in a smaller RAFGSA.

As for the future of the VGS's they will continue I'm certain, as they are a recruiting point for future pilots for the RAF, they may however, not continue at their current size.

[Arclite01]

Anybody know which number conventional gliding school they are thinking of moving into Syerston then ?

I believe that 643 and 644 currently operate out of there........

Alternative sites for the GSA must include Scampton surely - what about Kirton in Lindsay (which I believe the Army still owns) - or is Newton still owned by the MoD (airfield anyway ?)

ta

Arc

Or Barkston Heath or North Luffenham maybe suitable sites for GSA ops..........

[SirToppamHat]

643 VGS was flying Vikings out of Scampton in 1989, and I don't know when/why they moved (I'd already joined the mob by then).

My last flight was about 100 mins long as I caught a thermal with a 'first flight' cadet in the back who could only just see over the side. Eventually, I got to about 5000ft over Lincoln, and contacted Waddington for a FIS, and got information on the Reds coming home. They went underneath us (they were visual) and we landed about 20 mins after them. Of course, I'd broken the rules, and was grounded for 2 wks as a punishment, I do not regret the decision one bit, and started Cranwell a couple of wks later ... I wouldn't be surprised if the cadet remembers the experience quite well too, the grin on his face made all the efforts worthwhile, and my guess is that, despite some comments previous to this, most VR(T) guys are in it for the same thing!!
I hear people at work talk about the ATC as a drain on resources, how can we justify them etc etc, but my guess is that in financial terms they cost a pittance to run when compared with the money wasted by DPA.

Back to the thread ... why are the regulars (RAFGSA) being kicked out of Syerston ? Completely different philosophies and aims must make it hard to co-exist safely, but I would guess Scampton would be an option, especially if it is being rejuvenated for the 'deployable' units!

You're all really useful engines!

[Jobza Guddun]

STH,

I was an FSC on 643 from mid-87 to late 88 and your tale seems very familiar!! Do we know each other?

At Scampton 643 and Humber GC ran alongside each other in those days and as I recall it worked OK (apart from one or two peoples' antagonism). So no reason why VGS's and the RAFGSA can't co-exist, as always it's down to the people involved.

And IMHO the ATC is money well spent.

Jobza

[ABN 99]

I have heard a rumour that 613 V.G.S. at RAF Halton will be transferring their flying ops to Dalton Barracks, Abingdon (ex RAF Abingdon) during the winter months.

If this proves to be a successful operation then it may become permanent move with 613 joining up with 612 V.G.S. the home Sqn at Abingdon.

I understand there is sufficient room for both Sqn aircraft in the one hangar.

Is there any truth in the rumour?

[SirToppamHat]

Jobza's last line seems to sum it up, I think.

JOBZA CHECK YOUR PMs

It is not necessarily the activities or organisations that conflict, it may be down to the people involved; they need to communicate and understand each others' needs for a safe operation to continue.

Unfortunately, within the military in particular, the'people whio make these decisions may be quite a distance from those actually at Syerston (though I'll wager there has been some local involvement for the issue to have been raised).

Happy and SAFE New Year!

STH

[Arclite01]

OK so everybody thinks that the ATC is a good idea and offers value for money and everybody thinks it's possible for Ops to co-exist and that local failure is down to personalities....no one disputes that

But I really started this thread to see if people thought the kit currently used by the VGS is the right stuff for the job - are winch launch schools a good use of time and manpower or are Vigilant/Motorglider schools better options and more effective - but real heavy on maintenance organisations

Or should it all be put out to contractors as the old Flying Scholarships used to be - after all the aircraft and vehicles are only a small bit of the cost - it's the real estate that costs money plus the maintenance

motorgliders from any local airport would be a good way to go, or the conventionals can operate off any reasonable grass surface.......

What do people think ?

Arc

P.S. And anyone at Syerston (who read this thread) know what number school/unit is going to be moved into Syerston as the winch launched VGS ?

[Jobza Guddun]

STH

Check your PMs

JG

[FJJP]

Years ago at Cranwell on IOT, I had a cadet with a shed-load of gliding instructional hours, but coming in as an Air Trafficker. Cut a long story short, he was a victim of the recruiting world quota system. Luckily, had a Director who regularly told the establishment to p*ss off, and, subject to satis performance at Swinderby, would be allowed to transfer to GD/P.

Now a V experienced RAF pilot...

He spoke highly of the gliding world, and all that it did for recruiting.

[Megaton]

My (reliable) information is that 643 will operate conventional gliders while 644 will continue with the Vigilant.

[Arclite01]

Interesting.......

There is a glut of Vikings so that would make sense.

I wonder who will be the lucky recipients of their Vigilants - I presume another school will be re-equipped/converted.

Any rumours as to who ?

Arc

I'm just thinking of selling my house under the Watton approach that's all.........

[ladyfly]

I believe all VGS's are undervalued and underrated, as I have heard many people say they believe that VGS's should close and the trade given to the AEF's.

This would be devastating, many of the cadets who complete their Gliding Induction Course go on to complete Gliding Scholarships, and then many of those go solo. From these cadets some will go on further until they too become instructors. They are usually the people who give up every weekend, work hard and show dedication to their Sqn. They could be chopped at any point, and go through numerous check flights with their own staff, CFS and ACCGS pilots.

Therefore surely they are crucial in developing new pilots and the future of our armed forces.


L'Fly

[Skylark4]

Is there a Smiley anywhere with a basket of pigeons in one hand and a cat in the other?
As you don't seem to want the UAS anymore, why not close down the AEF and hand over all their aircraft and tasking to the VGS. The existing AEF pilots can continue flying the Grob 115 and the VGS Grob 109 pilots can aspire to move up the ladder and join them.

Mike W

[Widger]

Getting back to the core of this thread

A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

Note all after the first 11 words. Just because you are aircrew doesn't mean you cannot spout [email protected] has shown that on many occasions!


Woops wrong thread sorry!

Computers...Sh1T in Sh1T out!

[airborne_artist]

Widger

Looks like finger trouble there, mate, as your post has nothing to do with the thread, which is about the VGS!

[A251]

as a member of a vgs myself, i beleive what they do is outstanding,

yeah i don't quite understand widgers comment.

[Yozzer]

2 VGS Gliders were involved in an air 2 air collision over Salmesbury. Be it a formation flight gone wrong or a genuine accident is unknown. Captains are grounded pending BOI. 6 feet worth of damage to one wing sounds like they are lucky to be alive. Both aircraft landed ok. Names known but inappropriate to go public, no cadets on board.

[Spot 4]

It was an air to-air-photo shoot that went badly wrong.

[Buitenzorg]

Haven’t been involved in the British VGS system, but in Holland where I grew up there was a similar scheme: the Ministry of Defense would subsidize membership fees etc. for civilian gliding club members of high school age provided they were fit (by no means equivalent of a military flight physical though) and flew a minimum amount per year (50 launches IIRC).

Some of the benefits to the services may be hard to quantify, but the cost savings in selection and training alone must have been astronomical. During the 1980s the RNlAF did their sums and found that of those gliding cadets who applied for flight training (pre-selection) a whopping 44% graduated as military pilots (FJ or helos). When considering the other applicants the usual slaughter of choppings and drop-outs emerged (about 1% or so graduated).

So what became of what must surely have been the most cost-efficient program in the Netherlands MoD? I’m timing this one...

[tmmorris]

612VGS hangar very full last time I looked... 613VGS sometimes moved to Benson, I believe, but Benson also a bit too busy at times.

Tim