Murray/Bodill Round the World [Archive]

Whirlybird

30th Aug 2003, 18:39

I think (not certain) that when Q and Jennifer flew the R44 round the world a couple of years ago, it was the first time it had been done in a piston-engined helicopter. When Jennifer did it alone, she was definitely the first woman to do so in a piston-engined helicopter. Personally I'm losing interest in women's only records, for something where gender shouldn't make any difference anyway (I had a women's only record once - for six months - read on :)). But for many people, a record is a record. And has a piston engined helicopter actually been flown around the world via the poles before? I didn't think so, though I'm not certain.

In any case, who cares if it's cutting edge. Jennifer has the helicopter, and the money, and fancies doing it, so why not? If I could afford it, I'd do it too. Actually, if I could afford it, I'd probably start with something easier, like flying round Britain, but I can't even afford that, so it's irrelevant. I doubt very much if Jennifer will care what you call her - adventurer, tourist, or sight-seer - that's all for the world in general, not the person doing it.

I speak to a certain extent from experience, though nothing to do with flying. Some years ago (before I was Whirly) I walked nearly 5000 miles round the coast of Britain. It was a mad idea I'd had for years, and when I had the time and money, I did it. I didn't want to break any records; I fancied seeing the country and being a kind of wandering minstrel, strolling along beaches and chatting in pubs. The reality was often being wet, cold, lonely, sometimes lost, and with sore feet - but I enjoyed it in a bizarre sort of way. But people's reactions? Firstly I was criticised for not raising money for charity. Then there were those who were furious that I didn't care about beating any records ( I had one anyway - for the longest continuous walk in Britain by a woman - for 6 months). Then people thought I shouldn't do it, or should do it some other way, or was some kind of amazing superwoman. It was all weird. I just had a bit of money and time and a mad idea, that was all. But for some reason, I got turned in people's minds into something I wasn't, and they then made me into public property. I rebelled in the end, refusing to do a national TV interview several hours after getting home, and telling my horrified self-styled "manager" ("You just don't turn down the BBC" that I didn't care if it would get me fantastic publicity for the book I might write - I'd had enough!!!

Which is all probably why I empathise with Jennifer (while being madly jealous too) and wish her lots of luck, and don't try to say why she's doing it or put labels on her.

jeffasolo

1st Sep 2003, 03:19

I much appreciate the positive reactions - and, well, there will always be those who criticise. Please check out my web site to understand a little more about what we are hoping to achieve - not www.polarfirst.com This is just a holding site but it will be fully up and running by mid September.
We are doing more than 'just' attempting what has never been done before. We will be raising funds for WWF (The World Wild Life Fund) visiting many WWF sites and running a forum on www.schoolmaster.net - giving a great geography lesson to schools. Like so many others, we too will be celebrating 100 years of flight - and if we get those winds you so kindly wish us we will be at the South Pole on 17th December.
In the meantime I'm facing the toughest(I hope) part of all - just getting to the starting line - 2 years of planning and still so much to put in place.
...and Steve and Q. A brave attempt, but not a good idea to attempt Antarctica at the end of the Austral summer. Too much pressure to go when conditions are other than perfect.
Hope we don't have to sit around too long but we are allowing 2 months for a journey that could be done in days.
Again - thanks for the encouragement and stay with me as we go! Take off is 22nd October NYC.

Thomas coupling

1st Sep 2003, 03:31

Mrs Murray, would it be too much to ask if you could bear this forum in mind, add it to your 'favourites' and type a few lines every so often. Getting info like that fresh from the 'front line' would be unique to say the least.

All eyes are on you....................keep the ball in the middle:ok:

turboshaft

3rd Oct 2003, 00:45

FYI, the full Polar First website has now gone live at www.polarfirst.com (http://www.polarfirst.com).

Cheers,
T/shaft

Steve76

3rd Oct 2003, 08:51

So who's machine is it?
Sponsored.....?
Theirs?
Someone elses?

Who pays for the trips to the factory and the HUET training and the fuel and all the equipment?

I would love LOVE to do this but unfortunately I do not have endless pockets of cash.

Can someone elaborate??

Thomas coupling

4th Oct 2003, 16:25

6. What happens if the helicopter goes down in the sea? We will probably die. It sinks very fast, unlike a fixed wing plane a helicopter does not float on the surface. We have both completed the Dunker course at the Royal Air and Naval Base at Yeovilton, UK so at least we know what to expect and what to do. But the odds aren't good. We have a life raft, jackets and beacons but we would only have 3 mins to get into the life-raft.

Do trips like this get insurance cover, if so....how much would a premium like this cost:ooh:

Good web site.............................

Whirlybird

4th Oct 2003, 17:42

Good website...and fantastic thing to do!

Jeffa and Colin, go for it and the best of luck. Don't listen to the criticism (not that you are!). As you say, there will always be those who criticise. Some are jealous...I am too, but at least I don't pretend it's something else. Some think all of life is supposed to be lived in security and legislation restricted boredom; well, they can do that if they want, but we don't all have to. Some are especially threatened by a woman, especially an "older" woman, who has both money and guts - because women in particular aren't supposed to have either!

I think it's great that you're doing it, and I just wish I could come along too!!!!!!

SASless

4th Oct 2003, 20:15

Reckon they will try for any other firsts at the South Pole?:ok:

TeeS

5th Oct 2003, 01:23

Whirly

Who says women aren't supposed to have money? - My wife has got all of mine!

TeeS

Thomas coupling

5th Oct 2003, 16:24

Whirly, at times you really are like an old woman...you go rabbitting on and on and on and on about oppressed females.

The boat for the feminist movement left about ten years ago!

Chill out love, we're not all misogynists on this forum. :yuk:

Remember, behind every successful woman in this world... is a man.

In this instance, Jennifer is flying to the poles, and her husband is walking there, to make sure she knows where to go:ooh: :ooh:

Heliport

12th Oct 2003, 18:40

from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram

Helicopter pilot to take on challenge

FORT WORTH - Jennifer Murray looks with delight at the shiny red helicopter sitting in a hangar at Bell Helicopter. It's a sweet ride worth about $1.6 million. But it's where Murray will take this helicopter that makes her smile.

Murray has set records as the first woman to pilot a helicopter around the world, in 1997, and the first woman to fly a helicopter solo around the world, in 2000. Now, Murray, 63, will attempt her greatest challenge yet -- to fly around the world via the North and South Poles. The trip will take about 5 1/2 months and will span 30,000 miles through extreme weather conditions.

"It's a huge challenge, and there aren't that many great challenges left to do," she said. "This is the big one."

Murray and co-pilot Colin Bodill, who are both from the United Kingdom and have flown together several times since meeting in 1998, have spent two weeks training at the Bell Helicopter factory in Fort Worth to get accustomed to their new helicopter. The Bell 407 was chosen for its power and ability to fly at high altitudes, which will be necessary in the extreme weather conditions on the trip.

"In the polar region, you've got weather that can change dramatically without warning," Murray said. "It's very remote, and help is quite a long way away. "And there aren't any hotels in Antarctica."

http://www.dfw.com/images/dfw/startelegram/news/755740-263383.jpg
Bell Helicopter Vice President Tom Hendricks, left, talks with helicopter pilots Colin Bodill and Jennifer Murray recently while the pilots were in Fort Worth preparing to fly this Bell 407 around the world via the North and South Poles.

On Oct. 22, the duo will leave New York, taking off from the Liberty Heliport. They will fly down the East Coast, through Central and South America to the South Pole, where they hope to land Dec. 17 -- exactly 100 years after the Wright brothers' first flight.

Then, they will head to the North Pole via the West Coast of the Americas and complete the journey in New York. Their trip is funded mostly by corporate sponsors. Images from the trip will be available on their Web site -- www.polarfirst.com -- which they hope will be used by students to learn about environmental conservation.

"We're doing this with the World Wildlife Fund," Murray said. "We'll be visiting World Wildlife sites and visiting with scientists and biologists and running a very active Web site with a prime focus toward schools."

Before coming to Fort Worth, Murray and Bodill had other training to prepare for the trip, which has been two years in the making.

In the United Kingdom, they underwent what Murray called "the dunker course" -- learning what to do if they have to make an emergency landing in the water. The training involved dropping them upside down in a small capsule into a tank of water so they could learn how to escape from the cockpit of the helicopter underwater. Murray described it as horrid.

"And just as you're feeling good about it, they turn all the lights out on you and it's pitch dark," Bodill said.

They also traveled to Alaska during the winter for a wilderness survival course. The temperature was about minus 53 degrees Fahrenheit.

"You take a tea bag and put in a boiling cup of water and in 30 seconds it's a block of ice," Bodill said. "That was quite interesting, to say the least."

Murray said the hardest part of preparing for the trip is leaving her family. She has already said goodbye to her three children and will say goodbye to her husband in New York.

She said this is her last great helicopter adventure, but her co-pilot is not convinced. "I've heard that before," Bodill said.

Time Out

20th Nov 2003, 05:48

Woman to Try for South Pole by Helicopter

By MICHAEL ASTOR
Associated Press Writer

November 19, 2003, 5:06 PM EST

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil -- After setting one record for flying a helicopter around the world, a 63-year-old amateur pilot said Wednesday she expected to become the first person to fly a helicopter to the South Pole next month.

Jennifer Murray made her comments during a stopover in Rio de Janeiro -- about one-fifth of the way along in an unprecedented attempt to fly a helicopter around the world via the South and North poles.

If Murray succeeds it will be her third aviation record.

In 1997, she won a spot in the Guinness Book of Records as the first woman to circumnavigate the globe in a helicopter. Her flight raised $100,000 for Save The Children, an American nonprofit helping orphans around the world.

In 2000, she gave aviation history another milestone -- becoming the first woman to fly a helicopter solo around the world -- without an autopilot.

Murray and co-pilot Colin Bodill, 52, hope to reach the South Pole in their cherry red Bell 407 helicopter on Dec. 17, the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers' first powered flight. They began their 32,000-mile journey in New York on Oct. 22 and hope to return by April 14.

Murray said when they tried to register the South Pole flight as a possible aviation record, the World Air Sports Federation told them they didn't believe it could be done.

"We wouldn't have set out if we didn't think we had a sporting chance of getting back. I have a brand new one-day old granddaughter and I have every intention of getting back to see her," said Murray, a grandmother of four.

Bodill said he believed advances in aviation technology have made the flight possible, but he acknowledged the challenges -- heavy winds, ice crystals and flying in the cold thin air at high altitude.

Helicopters "don't operate well at high altitudes and flying to the South Pole means flying at 10,000 feet over 600 miles," Bodill said.

The U.S. Antarctic Program, which operates Amundsen-Scott Station at the South Pole, uses cargo planes to fly staff and equipment in from the coastal bases.

The pair had fuel drums dropped at various points along the way to allow for refueling and they have their own search and rescue team ready should they experience any problems.

Murray was born in Providence, R.I., and moved to England with her family as a youngster. Bodill is from Nottingham, England.

She began flying at age 54, after her husband purchased a share of a helicopter but didn't have time to learn to fly it.

The pilots will make 160 stopovers on their journey to spotlight the conservation work of the World Wildlife Fund.

During their stopover in Rio, they planned to visit a program to save the endangered golden lion tamarin monkey at the Poco das Antas nature reserve, about 80 miles outside the city.

source (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-brazil-polar-flight,0,6036755.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines)
and another similar report (http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031119/API/311190957)

Practice Auto 3,2,1

20th Nov 2003, 05:52

Here's a link to their web-site with diary etc on it.

Polar First (http://www.polarfirst.com/default.php)

Wish them both luck and I bet Colins glad he's not doing this one in the microlight :p

Camp Freddie

22nd Nov 2003, 00:58

right here we go,

I cannot see the point of doing challenges in innapropiate vehicles.

eg to the south pole in an R44, or round the world in a B407.

it is like proving you can drive accross the sahara in a mini metro, so what ! get a landrover I say

what next the first person to the summit of everest in flip flops !

am I the only person who thinks like this ?

Heliport

22nd Nov 2003, 02:03

No Camp F, you're not the only one. We had a good discussion about this sort of thing some time ago and opinions were divided (in broad terms) between those who think such challenges show we still have people with a spirit of adventure and people who think like you.
Click here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=79533&referrerid=30158)

Head Turner

24th Nov 2003, 17:47

Good luck to this plucky lady.
Like many, I am in favour of these adventurers. Why, because we would still be wandering around in animal skins if it were not for those who seek to extend their skills and knowledge.
If it were left to the administrators in the health and safety brigade we would be wrapped up in sterile cotton wool, bored and brainless. Unless there is challenge to exceed, how do we know how far we can go?
Individuals have the right to be responsible for themselves and for those who are involved with them.
Safety in this adventure is a matter of assessing the risk and if it is acceptable to the crew then 'go for it'.

The lack of safe drinking water for multitudes of people is an horrendous problem. Maybe the Bush administration could crack this by donating 10 minutes of war activity costs to providing clean water.
But whatever, this flight is not just about the mechanics of the B407, it's about doing something to show that there are characters who can focus on doing something demanding and difficult. They may well, afterwards, take up the challenge to provide help to those less fortunate than themselves

WHAT IS THEIR PROGRESS SO FAR?

Ian Corrigible

10th Dec 2003, 06:41

According to the team's website (http://www.polarfirst.com), Jennifer and Colin have just set a record for the first single-engine helicopter crossing of Drake's passage. Good for them !! Now where are the thermals...?!

Historic Crossing of the Drake Passage
09 December 2003

History has been made - the first crossing of the Drake Passage by a single-engine helicopter...

I have just received a call from ALE (Antarctic Logistics and Explorations) to say that they have just made contact with Jennifer and Colin who are rapidly heading south with 126 knot wind and clear weather in their favour.

Having stopped at Marsh and refuelled as fast as possible they are taking advantage of the weather window and pressing on towards Carvajal. The co-ordinates there are 67.45 and 68.54 so watch Blue Sky Network.

It has been a nervous time for us all but the Blue Sky tracker has worked like a dream and allowed us to keep a constant vigil on their movements

Time Out

10th Dec 2003, 13:50

And it's hit the news!!!!

5:23am (UK)
Helicopter Gran Lands in Antarctica

A 63-year-old British grandmother hoping to become the first helicopter pilot to circumnavigate the globe over both poles has landed in Antarctica.

Jennifer Murray touched down to refuel at a research station on Monday after crossing the wind-swept Drake Passage that separates the icy continent from South America, the Argentine Air Force said in a statement.

Murray was expected to travel in her single-engine helicopter to another base on the Antarctic peninsula before attempting to push on to the South Pole in the next few days.

That trip nearly halfway into her journey will be rife with challenges, including heavy winds, ice crystals and flying at high altitudes.

Murray and her co-pilot, 52-year-old Colin Bodill, from Nottingham, hope to reach the South Pole in their cherry red Bell 407 helicopter on December 17, the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers’ first powered flight.

They began their 32,000 mile journey in New York on October 22 and hope to return by April 14.

Their crossing of the Drake Passage – home to some of the most unstable and inhospitable weather on Earth – was the first in a single-engine helicopter, the Argentine Air Force said.

The Argentine military monitored Murray and Bodill’s flight pattern and kept three planes on alert as they flew over the rough and choppy waters speckled with icebergs.

For the South Pole trip, the pair had fuel drums dropped at various points along the way to allow for refuelling. They also have their own search and rescue team should they experience any problems.

Murray, who was born in Providence, Rhode Island, moved to England with her family as a youngster. Now living in London, she is seeking her third aviation record in an attempt to raise money for the World Wildlife Fund.

In 1997, she won a spot in the Guinness Book of Records as the first woman to circumnavigate the glove in a helicopter. Three years later, she reached another aviation milestone – becoming the first woman to fly a helicopter around the world without an autopilot.

Murray only began flying nine years ago after her husband purchased a share of a helicopter but did not have time to learn to fly it.

The pilots will make 16 stopovers on their journey to spotlight the conservation work of the World Wildlife Fund.

from Scotsman.com (http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2280078)

Congratulations to Jennifer and all involved.

Whirlybird

10th Dec 2003, 16:16

If I decide today to fly to my nearest airfield, it's no-one's business but mine, I'm sure you'd all agree. And if I plan a week's tour of Europe by helicopter, I doubt if anyone will have any opinions one way or the other as to whether I should do it...even if I happen to pick a route that's somehow never been flown before.

Jennifer and Colin have decided to fly round the world via the poles. And suddenly everyone has an opinion as to whether they should do it or not!

So at what point does a flight become public property, that everyone can stick their oar in and decide whether someone should do it or not? They want to do it. They're paying for it themselves. Yes, if anything goes wrong, it would involve other people, but that's equally true of any flight, including mine to the nearest airfield. Does that possibility mean that all recreational pilots should stay in their beds?

When I walked 5000 miles round Britain some 16 years ago, everyone had an opinion - I was mad, wonderful, doing it wrong, shouldn't do it at all, etc etc etc etc. I was too polite to ask all these people just what the hell it had to do with them?

Jeffa and Colin, you want to do it - that should be enough reason. Good luck with the rest of the trip. :ok:

Grainger

10th Dec 2003, 18:03

Excellent news !

I've had the extraordinary privilege to have flown the original round-the-world R44 (after it came back and for a much shorter distance ! ). If anyone is prepared for such an exploit, it is this team.

Where would we be without the spirit of adventure shown by people like Jennifer, Colin and Q and - let's face it - by Orville and Wilbur almost a hundred years before ?

Go for it, Jennifer and Colin - God speed and good luck for the rest of the mission.

High Nr

10th Dec 2003, 19:16

No you’re not alone.......

Just check out the profiles of the dominate supporters....not career professionals......at least most of them.

And of course mother hen....no one really knows about him/her...!!!!

The dangers of this exercise are two fold......

Firstly, my Xmas will be screwed up when AMSA [Australian Maritime Safety Authority] calls me at 0300 and tells me that some "$$$ thrill seeker has screwed up [again], and would you please risk your career, your crew and your families security and go find the selfish idiots and winch them back to safety [as you did with that idiot Pommy guy and that French Tart (Twice)]"

Of course we will go...again

And secondly.....we had a similar whiz kid named Duck Smyth who thought he was Gods gift to aviation....he did some North Pole and round the world trip and he was classified by the non career professional aircrew as some sort of &^%$ knowledgeable hero....Great

The end result of that saga was that the Oz politicians thought he was a trusted authority.....and gave him a throne in CASA....well the disaster that followed is now well documented.

The Headline Seeking Amateurs on the perheriry of professional aviation, have, and will continue to negatively influence the dedicated and lifelong struggle of professional and career aviators around the world.

Yes, its great to have some one pushing the envelope…..but this is just a PR $$$$ making exercise…and just stupid.

Let these daredevils fly with me in a Northern Oz summer with towering CB’s and weather to the minimums,[yet alone the CA guys weather] and see if their fragile little world is still as prepared to risk their ass’s as they impose on others]

Selfish, is all I can say.

Thomas coupling

10th Dec 2003, 21:00

Whirlybird:

I dont think Jenny and her pal decided to do this for a laugh!! You're looking at well in excess of a million pounds to run a project like this. And they certainly aren't millionaires of this league.
So the real reason is for charity and a sense of adventure. They get the latter through the former. Sponsorship (which is all over the web site and a/c) and PUBLIC MONEY pays for this, or didn't you know.

Now if I wanted to contribute to your round the country soiree for either of these two reasons, I can assure you, I would take a DEEP interest in what you are doing:*

THIS is why everyone is curious and that is why EVERYONE is entitled to pose difficult and awkward questions all the time.
Do you understand now?

Consequently, individuals are perfectly entitled to comment from both sides of the fence.

Personally, I happen to think [bearing in mind that this is a publicity stunt in drag] this is one of the better organised adventures that deserves to succeed, provided one accepts that it is still a STUNT.
Unlike the mickey mouse bumblings of her predecessor: Q and whoever.

PS: If you really really felt like that about your epic wanderings around UK Ltd; why didn't you do it quietly without telling a soul?
If you wanted peace and quiet you could have responded to curious enquirers by telling them you were just a 'rambler' doing a local walk. Why if you wanted privacy.....did you write a book on it :oh:

Heliport

10th Dec 2003, 22:06

TC
"And they certainly aren't millionaires of this league."

That may apply to Jennifer's pal ................ ;)

headsethair

11th Dec 2003, 00:33

I bet TC's a laugh at Christmas parties. :p

Whirlybird

11th Dec 2003, 01:10

TC,

I got the impression they were funding it themselves, and raising money for charity at the same time. I could be wrong about that; I'm not certain. Jennifer certainly isn't poor, and that's definitely an understatement!

If public money is funding this, you certainly have a point. If I'm right, then people either contribute or they don't, as with any charity donations.

As for my long ago trip, I tried to do it quietly. Word got around, the media got interested, and I was too young and naive to realise that I would soon become public property. I hated it, tried to back off, and refused to do a BBC TV interview the day after I got back - which infuriated many people, but I didn't care. I wrote the book some years afterwards because...I wanted to. :) It hasn't made me famous, or been talked about as much as the walk was at the time. I'd actually just hoped it would make me rich, or at least fund my helicopter addiction, but it didn't do that either. :(

RDRickster

11th Dec 2003, 01:56

I wouldn't classify ALL pilots that attempt to break records as "Headline Seeking Amateurs." You will probably find that most attempts were planned years in advance, had well thought out contingency plans, and were rehearsed several times. Also, MOST participants in these attempts probably did everything reasonable to achieve their goals (within their limits). I doubt any of the folks you've rescued intended to fail... do you? If human beings never attempted "the impossible," none of us would be flying today. My 2 cents.

bugdevheli

11th Dec 2003, 05:54

No opinion as to whether the trip is good or bad, but having met them both, and bought the book (and read it twice). I am dissapointed that Colin Bodell is always referred to as the ladies assistant, helper, at best co pilot. Because he appears to be a very unassuming chap he seems not to attract the attention, of the media. Its nice to see a woman having a crack at something, but like all women they need a good man behind them. (head down Bug, incoming):D :D :D

autosync

11th Dec 2003, 07:11

High Nr, Camp F

Couldn't Agree with you more.
Folks, lets call a spade a spade, this is not a groundbreaking adventure that may change peoples lives, or enlighten us to something that we dont already know
This is a PR excercise, male/female who cares its a pathetic waste of extreme amounts of money and a risk to the SAR units along there route by yet another ettcentric Pommey multi millionaire, who have no regard for anybody or anything except there own Ego.

Maybe its because I dont have much of it, but my god I could think so many more useful, helpful ways to spend this type of money, but maybe thats just me.

I wonder how many of the supporters here were so supportive to this Q guy, then when it all went tits up decided that it was just a plane dumb excercise.

Heliport

11th Dec 2003, 07:53

autosync
"I wonder how many of the supporters here were so supportive to this Q guy, then when it all went tits up decided that it was just a plane dumb excercise."

From what I remember of the discussion at the time, views were very entrenched on both sides of the debate and very few if any of those who supported the venture changed sides when it failed.

Heliport

RDRickster

11th Dec 2003, 09:56

Also, they have their OWN search and rescue team following them for this mission. I'd say they've done more to mitigate external pressures than any other "thrill seeker." To claim that this flight is useless is also a bit narrow-minded.

Recently, there were several South Korean scientists lost in the Antarctic. Who knows... the lessons learned from this trip may help improve technology to provide better transportation, including helicopter search and rescue operations, to remote and extreme environments in the cold and other environments.

tecpilot

11th Dec 2003, 14:10

I like the thing to have an own major sponsor and no question the first on my paper would also be the brewer! Come on all folks it sounds good: "The company's portfolio of more than 30 brands includes Budweiser, the world's best-selling beer!"

Please, please, Mr. Sponsor, take my back, my flight suit, my whole skin, my helmet, but sorry no helicopter paints (isnt't my own :} ) and if i will chrash on the dayly and nightly business, you could have the publicity.

How does it sound:

:ugh: :\ :yuk:

That booze is stronger than this proven helicopter hero! !

:ugh: :\ :yuk:

[email protected]

11th Dec 2003, 16:24

Call me a geographical pedant but doesn't 'circumnavigation of the the world' mean going completely around it and not just down the East coast and up the West coast of N and S America? Yes they are going via the North and South poles but it's not the 'awesome adventure' that the web site suggests as they are not flying around the world. I guess it's the same mentality that calls a North American Baseball league the World Series!!

Head Turner

11th Dec 2003, 18:14

This is a pathetic adventure.
However it is underway and if those involved get a thrill from it, then that is what is behind it all. Don't we all get a thrill everytime we fly. But we do it for the job and we love every moment, and knowing that the record books will not make any reference to our successes.

I am concerned that others are put at risk to facilitate this sortie.

But, looking to be positive. We might learn something from this.
1. Are the floats which are fitted really the best design?
2. Is the door jetison design user friendly?
3. Are there failures in the weather forecasting system?

Just some thoughts to see if some good can come from this.

StevieTerrier

11th Dec 2003, 20:02

From the website -

"This exciting adventure is being undertaken by Polar First, in support of WWF, the Conservation Organisation, with a mission to stop the degradation of the planet’s natural environment"

and of course we wont be wasting any natural resources (for example fossil fuels) or adding to atmospheric pollution as we go.

RDRickster

11th Dec 2003, 21:02

Either you folks are a pessimistic lot, or I'm completely missing the point. Regardless, let me pose a question. If someone were to bank roll this mission and ask you to fly it (given all the safety procedures, dedicated SAR team, etc)... would YOU fly it?

I don't have those skills, and I'm happy to live within my limitations. For me, it is beyond my capabilities (for the time being). Still, if I was more experienced... what an opportunity!

Watchoutbelow

12th Dec 2003, 00:47

MaybeI think too much like an Engineer,
If I don't see logic and reason for doing something I won't do it, If there is unnecessary risk I won't bother.
We all know that it is possible for a 407 to fly down to the south pole, so whats it prooving?

But why bother, if it goes wrong and there is a bit of a swell, and in the South Atlantic and below the Roaring forties, it could well do, those last moments before going into the cold grey drink are not gonna be too nice at all, even worse if there is no reason to do it in the first place.

However they could possibly set a record for being the only JAA pilots to actually use Polar Stereographic charts, which the JAA insist is a necessity for flying helicopters in Europe.

Anyway I hope my worries for this excercise don't bare fruit.

If they insist on doing it best of luck, enjoy the flying and safe journey

[email protected]

12th Dec 2003, 00:48

Since they appear to intend to fly it all at medium level VFR, what extra experience beyond PPL do you need? If it was dangerous or they had to go in poor wx then I guess they wouldn't do it.
And yes, I would love someone to pay me to sightsee in a helicopter for a few months!

RDRickster

12th Dec 2003, 01:22

Everybody dies... not everybody lives. Why do people climb Everest?

headsethair

13th Dec 2003, 01:17

I cannot believe that dedicated flyers like the pros who post here can be so miserable and blinkered. Christ, you're a sad bunch. Why not just hand in the licence and become a Health & Safety consultant with a nice brown desk.
And put away the green-eyed monster.

RDRickster

13th Dec 2003, 02:48

Well said! This thread feels like we've run a muck... into the tar pits... and are dying a slow death... a lack of willingness to do something different. Where's are the Fisty Flyers? Clearly, Jennifer Murray's 'Round the World' attempt is not a hap-hazard activity that some brainless newbie thought up the day before. We ARE talking about folks that tempter their adventures with "logic and reason," but they still have an adventerous spirit.

Therefore, I submit that the ill-prepared adventurer often brings doom and gloom to the SAR folks and others that are dispatched to bring these amateurs to safety. That is true. However, this is NOT the case with Jennifer Murray's mission. To compare the bloke who got himself stuck in Antartica because of piss-poor-planning, and the current mission seems overly critical and zealous to a fault.

t'aint natural

13th Dec 2003, 05:13

You moaners are indeed a small-minded, sad and sorry lot. I do hope you all live forever, or at least die of old age in your beds, but don't force on the rest of society the requirement to quench any spirit of adventure, stifle any spark of individuality, just because you find it all too humdrum.
We're all gonna die, and if any man or woman has the balls and the wherewithall to risk going out while taking it to the edge, it's not your place to stand in the way. And if you don't want to try and help them when it all goes tits up, don't - quit and get a job in a bank.
The human spirit not only matters, it's ALL that matters.

Nigel Osborn

13th Dec 2003, 06:19

It's interesting to read the difference of opinions between the ppl or amateur pilot, who fly for free or whenever they can or can afford to, and the commercial or professional pilot, who gets paid to fly whether they feel like it or not!
Far longer ferry flights have been undertaken by single piloted helicopters in such illustrious machines as the Bell 47, without any modern benefits, and of course more modern machines with all the latest gismos. In other words long flights are no big deal in general terms. All that is needed is a reliable helicopter, the knowledge to flight plan correctly, good weather forecasting, the ability to calculate fuel usage to refuel locations, maps that are half way accurate, a bum that doesn't go numb and the ability to stare out the window for 10 hours a day.

I've flown in the Antarctic in a 206 and as long as one keeps a beady eye on the weather and is aware of how to combat white out problems, then really it is no big deal. Obviously like in any type of flying, you can get caught out and that is where experience and common sense comes into it.

I don't know this pair but let's face it, they have a new machine fitted with all the latest gismos, plenty of money, should know how to flight plan and refuel and, hopefully, plenty of common sense when to chicken out if it should go to worms! As they are spending months doing it and not weeks as a company would, then getting a numb bum should not be a problem!

As for getting a SAR call out or having to get rescued by other means, so what, numerous people have to get rescued, that's why there are rescue services. It is far more enjoyable doing a real rescue than spending hours tossing out a wooden dummy to practise winching up, so I've no doubt that a rescue crew would enjoy the challenge and if they can't succeed, then so be it.

To any ppl/amateur pilot this would have to be a great adventure. For me after 42 years in the helicopter business, it would be a bore. But then I'm not doing it, they are and I wish them well whether they succeed or not.

Practice Auto 3,2,1

14th Dec 2003, 20:12

For anyone that's interested:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/3317351.stm

:E

robinsonheli

14th Dec 2003, 22:54

Your post has been deleted.

If you wish to comment on the 'Round the World' venture, please do so.

The owners of PPRuNe do not permit the site to be used for libellous allegations.

Heliport
Moderator

Thomas coupling

15th Dec 2003, 10:23

Tecpilot: what are you trying to say???:confused:

Ian Corrigible

17th Dec 2003, 23:44

Great timing - they've lived up to their goal of reaching the South Pole on the 100th anniversary of powered flight:

Polar First Arrive At South Pole
www.polarfirst.com 12/17/2003

http://www.polarfirst.com/images/upload_image/diaryimage_72.jpg

World record-breaking helicopter pilots Jennifer Murray and Colin Bodill today landed at the South Pole and are celebrating 100 years of powered flight. This is just a part of their round the world record-breaking attempt that includes flying from Pole to Pole in a helicopter covering a distance of some 33,000 miles. The aims of the expedition are to succeed in breaking the record and raise awareness and funds for the conservation organisation WWF and associate conservation organizations.

This leg of the journey involves the 460 nautical miles crossing of the Drake Passage, the most hostile waters on earth. Antarctica is the coldest and windiest continent on earth and the most dangerous section of their attempt.

Jennifer Murray and Colin Bodill set off in their Bell 407 helicopter from New York on the 22nd October, flying down the east coast of the U.S., through Central and Southern America. The expedition is currently in Argentina, making their way south with a member of the WWF affiliate organisation, Fundacion Vida Silvestre, on board visiting many conservation areas. After Antarctica they will head up the west cost of the Americas, Alaska and Canada to the North Pole and finally back down to New York in mid April 2004.

Simon Murray, Jennifer’s husband, together with Arctic explorer Pen Hadow set off on an 850 mile overland trek to the South Pole. At the age of 63, Simon is the oldest man to walk this route unsupported and Jennifer and Simon met on Saturday 13th December. Simon Murray said: "It was a very lovely, emotional moment, lots of big hugs, with both of us in our furry gear."

I/C

[email protected]

18th Dec 2003, 00:57

Yes very well done and very laudable but it is a 'round the continent' adventure not 'round the world'!!!

Whirlybird

18th Dec 2003, 01:51

crab,

THREE continents if we're gonna get picky about it. ;)

A great way to celebrate the centenary of powered flight though. I just managed ten minutes hover-taxi-ing in fog. :(

The Nr Fairy

20th Dec 2003, 15:12

A news item on BBC Radio 4 this morning reports that an ELT from Jennifer Murray and Colin Bodill's helicopter has been activated, with a tentative position in the Antarctic.

News agencies are not yet reporting anything, but the BBC isn't normally wrong about stuff like this. Does anyone else have information ?

Time Out

20th Dec 2003, 15:47

Perhaps this:

UK helicopter crash in Antarctica

A rescue operation is under way in Antarctica after a British helicopter crashed in bad weather.
The helicopter was on its way from the UK research area at Rotheray - several hundred miles south of the Falklands - to the South Pole.

It is thought two people were on board but there is no word on their condition.

The helicopter's beacon signal was picked up by RAF Kinloss in Scotland and the RAF rescue centre in the Falklands is handling the operation.

Poor weather is reportedly preventing a rescue aircraft circling overhead from landing.

Rescuers are believed to be planning to walk to the crash scene from a nearby air base.

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3336395.stm)

spraygear

20th Dec 2003, 16:25

bbc.co.uk reports machine down, 2 on board no word on crew as yet.........

ppheli

20th Dec 2003, 17:09

Nothing on www.polarfirst.com at this time

Their satellite tracking at www.blueskynetwork.com is showing "Not in Flight" at 0300Z (see here (http://www.blueskynetwork.com/PolarFirst/PolarFirstIndex.html))

Let's hope/pray all OK

HeliEng

20th Dec 2003, 17:33

Taken from BBC.co.uk

"Two British helicopter pilots missing in Antarctica have been found and are receiving medical treatment.
Jennifer Murray, 63, and Colin Bodill, 54, were attempting to be the first to fly around the globe in a helicopter via South and North poles.

RAF Kinloss in Scotland raised the alarm at 0100 GMT and an RAF centre in the Falklands launched a rescue.

Ms Murray, who suffered a broken arm, and Mr Bodill, are expected to be flown back to Chile on Saturday.

No details of the condition of Mr Bodill have yet been confirmed"

ppheli

20th Dec 2003, 18:05

The Polar First website diary (http://www.polarfirst.com/html/diary.php) has now been updated and states

Helicopter explorers Jennifer Murray and Colin Bodill crashed in Antarctica early this morning o_ne third of the way through their attempt to fly a helicopter around the world from Pole to Pole.

A signal was picked up from the beacon o_n Jennifer and Colin’s helicopter and the alarm was raised at about 1.00am UK time, 10.00pm local time. The accident happened 120 miles north of Patriot Hills o_n the northern section of the Ronne Ice Shelf. The pilots erected their tent and sheltered in the helicopter while they waited for the rescue team to arrive.

Colin Bodill sustained an injury in the accident typical of those received in high-impact crashes and there is concern about his wellbeing. Jennifer Murray has a broken arm. Colin is in a stable condition; he is safe, warm and under the care of a doctor.

The accident happened early this morning, as the pilots flew north from Patriot Hills in Antarctica o_n their way to South America o_n the latest stage of their flight. They were taken back to Patriot Hills by the rescue team and are awaiting a flight to Punta Arenas in Chile for medical treatment. The plane is due to arrive in Patriot Hills at 13.00 hours UK time, 10.00am local time.

Jennifer and Colin arrived at the South Pole o_n Wednesday in their Bell 407 helicopter, o_n the 100th anniversary of the first powered flight by the Wright brothers. They had just set off o_n the next leg of their journey, when the helicopter came down in bad weather conditions.

Practice Auto 3,2,1

20th Dec 2003, 18:06

Latest from BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3336395.stm

Time Out

20th Dec 2003, 18:12

Helicopter Grandmother Survives Antarctic Crash

By Pat Hurst, PA News.

An intrepid British grandmother and her co-pilot have survived crashing their helicopter in the frozen wastes of Antarctica.

Jenny Murray, 63, a world record holder for conducting solo flights, broke her arm in the crash at 1am British time today.

Her co-pilot, Colin Bodill, 53, is believed to have sustained chest injuries and his condition is described as “stable” after their Bell 407 helicopter went down.

They are attempting to become the first people to fly a helicopter around the world from Pole to Pole.

Despite their injuries they managed to erect a tent in the –40C temperatures and icy winds after sheltering in their downed craft, according to Polar First, the organisation behind the expedition.

Mrs Murray, from Frome, Somerset, and Mr Bodill, from Nottingham, were rescued from the crash site and are waiting to be flown to Chile for medical treatment.

They are now at an Antarctic camp called Patriot Hills in western Antarctica.

From Scotsman (http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2320694)

md 600 driver

20th Dec 2003, 18:15

another 407
shame though i thought she was crackers going around the world in a 44 now shes in a 407 ,
bet she wishes she was still in the 44

hope there both ok

steve

Flying Lawyer

20th Dec 2003, 18:55

Isn't it rather early to be jumping to conclusions based on the type of helicopter?
Mechanical failure is a possibility . But so, for example, are weather, running out of fuel and relative inexperience flying in extreme conditions.
Better to wait until we know a litte more?

StevieTerrier

20th Dec 2003, 19:42

-40 degrees celsius - that must be getting very close to the minimum allowed ambient operating temperature for the 407 isn't it?

Dont think I'd fancy camping in that.

engineoff

20th Dec 2003, 20:15

Makes you wonder if Bell are regretting getting involved with the attempt.... First the R44 then this latest incident may make sponsorship for these 'adventures' hard to come by in the future.

[email protected]

20th Dec 2003, 20:15

I am pleased they are both OK - at least it has been a real adventure for them instead of a pseudo one. Now was it their own SAR team who found out they were in trouble and coordinated the rescue? oh no it was the RAF.. again!
And what about the environmental impact of a crashed helicopter pouring fuel and oil all over the Antarctic wilderness. All these high profile ideas are great - right up to the point where it all goes pear-shaped and someone gets hurt.

Heliport

20th Dec 2003, 20:22

Patriot Hills

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~meteorite/pics/Where_is_PH.gif

Airport
http://www.brucegoodlad.com/Gallery/2002/patriot%20hills%20airport%20Large.jpg

Camp
http://mitglied.lycos.de/mapu2001/exp3.jpg

StevieTerrier

20th Dec 2003, 20:33

engineoff - "First the R44 then this latest incident "

Add to that the grounding of Concorde and we Brits are really celebrating "100 years of Powered Flight" in style.

And this from the nation who gave the world the jet engine, radar and yes, what the hell, say it proud - The Brotherhood of Man's "Save all your kisses for me. What has become of us?

By the way, if that had been Shackelton in the 407, he would have built himself a pogo stick from the wreckage and hopped back to Patriot Hills, none of this "pop the ELT, come and get me" sh-1T.

SASless

20th Dec 2003, 20:38

Flying Lawyer.....now that is some position to take on these things! How can these cyber-experts get any exercise if they "exercise" patience, good judgement, and such. Don't they get better workouts by jumping to conclusions and running around pointing fingers....let them be, Sir!

I mean afterall FL...the 44 and 407 both need defenders....or so it seems lately. :{

Grainger

20th Dec 2003, 22:20

Congratulations to Jennifer and Colin for reaching the Pole on the 17th, and best wishes to you both for a speedy recovery.

RDRickster

21st Dec 2003, 03:30

I hope they both recover, regain their strength, and continue this journey in the future once more. Hip, Hip, Hooray for a great attempt!

Chairmanofthebored

21st Dec 2003, 03:48

Why don't these obviously overly wealthy old people just stay at home and leave the flying to the professionals.

10 to 1 that this was a CFIT accident.

Why is everyone celebrating a Granny flying around the planet. What is the point to it?

Why don't they hire someone young with strength, endurance and stamina and MOST importantly EXPERIENCE in flying in these climates to do this.

Get on the pogo stick Gran.........

:bored:

Thomas coupling

21st Dec 2003, 04:07

Mmmm Chairman, welcome back, where have you been?

You're not that aussie plonker who dead sticked into McMurdo base for lack of fuel....getting your own back are you???:)

Pilotage

21st Dec 2003, 04:59

Why don't these obviously overly wealthy old people just stay at home and leave the flying to the professionals.

I don't know Jennifer Murray to speak to (although at 63 she may be a grandmother, but is hardly geriatric), but I do know Colin Bodill. He's run his own flying school for some years, which he started with one pilot (himself) and one aeroplane - he's taught many hundreds of PPLs and presumably a few commercial pilots too and so far as I know all his "fortune" is from that and some sponsorship for the expedition. I'd guess that he's probably got somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 hours.

Presumably given that, and the fact that he's previously flown solo around the world (albeit following JM's R44), and separately from UK to Australia in a microlight, means that he can reasonably be considered a competent professional. Given that he is, I assume he hasn't chosen to fly with somebody with significantly lower standards.

And what, pray, would be the point of hiring somebody else to go on an expedition for you?

P

Ascend Charlie

21st Dec 2003, 05:16

Nice wind-up, Thomas. Plonker indeed!!

The only dead-sticks were the Goddams who wouldn't top up his fuel, after his wise decision to NOT fall into the oggin just short of New Zillund.

So why are people getting so proud of a granny doing something that Dick Smith did SOLO twenty years ago? Oh, she's a Pom....... yeah, you guys need something to celebrate. It's a long time between rugby games.

(How's that for an invitation to get flamed?)

B Sousa

21st Dec 2003, 11:39

Mr Positive has to drop one finally. Been holding off for a while as all were so overjoyed that so few people could waste so much money to accomplish so little.....
At least they wont be working in the commercial sector as now both have at least one accident on record. ..Something like flying into Known Bad Weather....
I would much rather than see the loss of a good Aircraft, read about the fact that both of their Kayaks were lost to an over joyous group of fat Penguins....

Jarvy

21st Dec 2003, 16:41

Glad both safe but have to agree with the colonials, rich brit in love with her own publicity. As for the charity side should have stayed at home and given the money spent on funding the trip direct to charity!! How long would an air ambulance fly on that??

Letsby Avenue

21st Dec 2003, 17:06

Have to agree... Raise 100K in charity - Blow 400K (there or therabouts) on getting rescued and writing off the Ac. (Hoping of course that the Military don't kill themselves in the process).. Madness.

PS- Next week I am going to fly an Autogyro to the top of Mount Everest, land; and ride down on my mountain bike! Hoping to raise 10K for charity - Anyone want to come along?:rolleyes:

Woss goin on..?

21st Dec 2003, 19:04

What a bunch of jealous boring old farts some of you are!!!

Why should we care how a person should choose to spend their dosh....if they spend 400 to raise 100 for a charity, then so what?

Imagine anyway how many jobs and livelyhoods are kept afloat by the wealthy when flying helis, saling yachts etc etc etc.

Good on them both....how boring would this place be without these colourful characters.

And for the sar types moaning about having to rescue people like this......we are all grateful for what you do but if you dont want the risk, then go get a posting somewhere nicer.

Letsby Avenue

21st Dec 2003, 19:20

Er - the point is; the cost of the rescue is borne by the UK tax payer... and I don't want to pay any more!:*

Time Out

21st Dec 2003, 19:35

21 December 2003 - Jennifer and Colin Admitted to Hospital

Author: Sara Tye

Helicopter explorers Jennifer Murray and Colin Bodill are in hospital in the Chilean city of Punta Arenas following a 17-hour rescue mission to retrieve them from the site where they crashed in Antarctica.

Both pilots were taken straight to hospital when they landed in Punta Arenas at 17.50 hours Saturday night (14.50 local). Colin Bodill sustained injuries typical of those received in high-impact crashes. He is undergoing a thorough medical assessment but is lucid, conscious and stable. Jennifer Murray has dislocated an elbow, not broken an arm as was first feared.

Despite his injuries, it is understood that Colin braved the bitter cold to get Jennifer out of the helicopter following the accident and put her into a sleeping bag. He then erected a tent for shelter and lit a stove for warmth before collapsing because of his injuries.

The duo were picked up in a Twin Otter aircraft around three-and-a-half hours after the accident by the Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions rescue team before being taken back to the team’s Patriot Hills base camp. Jennifer and Colin waited at Patriot Hills for the rescue team’s Ilyushin 76 TD aircraft to make the five-hour trip from Punta Arenas and transport the pilots back to the Chilean city’s hospital.

The plane touched down o_n the Patriot Hills "blue ice" landing strip at 12.49 hours UK time (09.49am local) and turned round within an hour to transport the pilots o_n the last leg of their 17-hour ordeal, accompanied by a doctor, to Punta Arenas.

The helicopter accident happened at 1.00am UK time (10.00pm local) o_n Saturday morning, 120 miles north of Patriot Hills o_n the northern section of the Ronne Ice Shelf, as the pilots flew towards South America o_n the latest stage of the Polar First Challenge: an attempt to fly a helicopter around the world from pole to pole that reached the South Pole last Wednesday but has ended o_ne-third of the way through. The pilots used the helicopter’s o_n-board flight-tracking equipment and a satellite phone to alert the rescue team at Patriot Hills to their plight.

Jennifer and Colin arrived at the South Pole last Wednesday in their Bell 407 helicopter, o_n the 100th anniversary of the first powered flight by the Wright brothers. The Polar First Challenge 2003 lifted off from New York o_n October 22nd, 2003. Its aim was to break the pole to pole record and raise awareness and funds for the conservation organisation WWF. Last Saturday, Jennifer met her businessman husband Simon Murray, who is bidding to become the oldest man to walk 850 miles overland to the South Pole unsupported. He is accompanied o_n his trip by Arctic explorer Pen Hadow.

Jennifer Murray, who set the world record for the fastest female solo helicopter flight around the world in 2000, together with co-pilot Colin Bodill, flew down the east coast of the U.S., through Central and Southern America, down to the South Pole. They were in the process of starting their journey up to the North Pole via the west coast of the Americas and Canada, with a view to ending up in New York in mid-April 2004, when the accident happened. Jennifer and Colin planned to make over 160 stops o_n the journey to highlight the work of the WWF, flying scientists to key conservation sites, undertaking mapping and zoning of uncharted territory, tracking illegal destruction of natural resources and following endangered species.

source - Polar First (http://www.polarfirst.com/html/diary.php)

Woss goin on..?

21st Dec 2003, 20:08

Where does it say that the taxpayer will pay for the rescue?

We are not involved in their organisation therefore do not know the financial details of it.

In the text above, referrals are made as to 'the teams Iluyshin 76'. Perhaps therefore, they have covered the rescue costs themselves.

And in any case, who cares? It is a trivial amount compared to the enormous wastage this country goes through every day. There are much bigger spending problems to be sorted out.....this just becomes an issue because it appears that somebody wealthier than us is enjoying themselves doing something we would all love to do ourselves.

md 600 driver

21st Dec 2003, 20:13

quote from Chairmanofthebored

Why don't these obviously overly wealthy old people just stay at home and leave the flying to the professionals

chairman just out of interest what makes a proffesional

is it a cpl with 300 hrs on a r22 and a frozen atpl
ex mil piot with oodles of hrs
a police pilot like tc lol
a pilot who has flown twice around the world

why cant overly wealthy old people fly their helicopters when they want

some overly wealthy old people have more experience /hours ect than cpls

whereas i dont personally think flying accross barren areas like this is very sensible ,i would possibly have thought the wright boys getting into a flying machine 100 yrs ago not to be very sensible either

or is it you are just plain jealous that you are not doing it yourself. or your not a overly wealthy or a old person

steve

Woss goin on..?

21st Dec 2003, 20:35

MD600 DRIVER FOR PRESIDENT !!

Well said Steve.:ok:

ps. I am a 'professional' pilot, not old or wealthy and still think they should have done it. I would guess that chairman is cheesed off and out of work at the moment.

Jarvy

21st Dec 2003, 21:07

I actual agree that those with the money should spend it on what they like but not expect us normal folk to then say hooray and well done when they do or don't succeed.
Must dash off to LHR to fly to Maldives for Xmas & New Year.

RDRickster

21st Dec 2003, 22:15

I'm not sure how the topic of personal wealth is relevant to the current expedition and it's stated goals. It's grand that they have their own SAR team, and obviously they've planned this to the last detail. Question for the group...

Should they do it again?

(I respond with, "Yea")

[email protected]

22nd Dec 2003, 02:05

Bizarrely, they have raised their media profile much higher by crashing than they would have by succeeding!!! My wife told me today about the 2 people who had crashed a helicopter in Antarctica and was somewhat surprised that I already knew all the details. But what will the WWF (and thats World Wildlife Fund not the Wrestlers) think about the unspoilt wilderness being polluted by their champions?
At least the inevitable book about the 'adventure' will have a couple of interesting chapters!

Whirlybird

22nd Dec 2003, 02:07

I hardly think their age and financial position are relevant, except in that they've financed the trip themselves. As to stamina etc, both have flown round the world solo; isn't that enough to prove something? CFIT? You don't know; that's pure and uncalled for speculation.

As far as I can see the taxpayer isn't funding any of this, and in any event I'd rather my taxes went on rescuing them than the fortune that gets spent every year in rescuing idiots (many of them YOUNG!!!) who get lost in the Welsh mountains with no preparation or suitable gear...probably happens all over the world but I live here and know about it and see the imbeciles who start off up Snowdon in shorts or flimsy dresses and stiletto heels (Really!!!!!!!!)

They were prepared; they tried; they failed (for now). It's entirely up to them whether they do it again or not. Though for anyone who's counting, I hope they do. :ok:

Pilotage

22nd Dec 2003, 03:11

Whirly, last time I climbed Snowdon I rescued 7 people off it for free (a youth group from Birmingham who had parked in an unidentified carpark after lunch, decided to go for a walk, found themselves on the summit about half an after everybody else had left it, and just as it was starting to get dark).

Where do I apply for a slice of my tax money back for this?

P

Bronx

22nd Dec 2003, 04:49

"I hardly think their age and financial position are relevant."
Age irrelevant?
Mrs Murray has made the most of the extra publicity she's gotten for being the first grandmother to do whatever's she's up to at the time she wants to get publicity for herself.
Financial position irrelevant?
Having a rich hubby isn't irrelevant to being able to afford these publicity seeking junkets.

Just out of interest what makes a proffesional
is it a cpl with 300 hrs on a r22 and a frozen atpl
Yes, someone with a CPL or ATPL is a professional. You can't compare CPL and PPL. especially in England where you have that big jump from PPL to CPL and not much from CPL to ATPL except hours.
Would I want on of my loved ones to fly round the world with a cpl with 300 hrs on a Robbie. No. But I wouldn't want them going with a PPL unless the PPL had many years and thousands of hours helo flying experience, and many hundreds of hours on type and lots and lots of experience flying in extreme weather conditions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Mrs Murray has got any one of those.
ex mil piot with oodles of hrs
Yes.
a police pilot like tc lol
Yes and since you mention tc I'd be happy to fly with someone whose spent his life flying helos, in the Navy before he was a police pilot.
a pilot who has flown twice around the world"
Hmmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first time she claimed to be the first grandmother to fly round the world didn't she have a professional pilot sitting next to her?
And the second time didn't she have a pro pilot flying alongside her in another helo?

Don't get me wrong. I know a lot of pro pilots who I don't think have enough experience to do a trip like this. I don't know any PPLs who should be doing it.
Flying helos isn't difficult once you know how. Coping with emergencies is when you need experience.

cyclic flare

22nd Dec 2003, 04:54

I flew with Q (Quentin Smith son of Mike Smith CAA Panel examiner) doing my LPC's this week and we flew in a new R44 RavenII which was fitted with various bits and pieces for their next pole trip which presumme he will be completing with his previous swimming partner Steve Brooks.

Either way i am not that interested in the tax payers money etc but what i can tell you he his an exceptionally skilled / knowledgeable pilot. We completed some very interesting flying followed by finishing off in an r22 at night, engine off constant attitude to the ground in nil wind with two feet of radiation fog on the field at Denham. He took control in the last three feet and completed the excercise perfectly.

I flew with him several years ago during my early instructor days where he helped me with my EOL's and i recommend him to any hungery for knowledge pilot. a million miles from the factory courses

I know where i will be doing my next LPC's if he's not been eaten by a polar bear.

Johe02

23rd Dec 2003, 02:59

Flung dung. . . I just wanna say I did some of my PPL with Q and still sometimes fly with Mike. They are mines of information and always interesting to fly with.

When I was learning, thought I'd over pitched the tail rotor in an R22 and told Q about it. He showed me how you can fly at 40-50 kts and pedal turn 360 deg. Then let me try! It really put my mind at ease (as well as being great fun).

I can recommend you try an LPC with one of them. .
:eek:

sycamore

23rd Dec 2003, 04:21

Johe2
What is the sideways flight limitation on a Robbo, please?

Ascend Charlie

23rd Dec 2003, 05:26

Scary to think about how much stress has been put on those piddling little bolts that hold the tail boom on.

Sounds like this Q person is of that elite group to whom "limits" mean nothing. The last one I met was known as "Captain Death", he defied all the limits and amazed the junior pilots. Then he crashed, killed one and gained a permanent back injury for himself.

yeah, it's great fun to do all this stuff, until the metal (which has a perfect memory) decides to pull the rug out from under you.:(

Johe02

23rd Dec 2003, 17:33

I was always worried about LTE in flying in high winds but I now know those R22's can really take it. It's the pilots that can't. . .

The sideways limitation is walking pace I believe but that's in case the engine fails isn't it?. But don't say what if the engine fails because I know he could have landed it safely.

He chopped the throttle on me once climbing away from the field at 60 kts 150ft. Before I knew what was happening the RRPM was at 80% :{ and he said, 'too late' threw it into a 180 and did a perfect engine off back inside the airfield boundary!! Some people say he's crazy others know he's really that good!! Well he has been flying since he was 4 yrs old.

But anyway this has turned into a Q thread. . . I think it's a shame Jennifer didn't make it but at least this was a 'real' record attempt for a grandmother (ie without Q's magic touch).

Have a good Christmas
:)

Whirlybird

23rd Dec 2003, 18:04

And this is the very same Quentin Smith who was being severely criticised recently on here for ditching on the way to Antarctica. And he also happens to be the "professional pilot" quoted by someone (can't be bothered to read back) who flew with Jennifer the first time she went round the world, and was one of the support crew when she did it solo. Fantastically good pilot or risk taking loony? Take your pick. Why do I suspect that the same people who imply Jennifer couldn't have done the trip without him criticised his Antarctic attempt? Is it me, or has logical thinking flown out the window.

If I were Q, or Jeffa, or Colin, or anyone else similar, I'd just ignore all the comments...and I suspect they all do. One thing though - I'm glad I don't have kids. It means that if if I ever do anything amazing/adventurous/mad/dangerous, at least I'll be considered by the media and everyone else as an individual, and not as someone's "grandmother". :eek:

StevieTerrier

23rd Dec 2003, 19:03

johe2 -

A 180 auto from 150' in a climbing R22? Excellent! Shame he ended up downwind tho', dontcha think??

Might be more constructive to teach you how not to get in such a mess that you would actually need to consider this manoeuver.

Oh and by the way, do the words "Surprise throttle chops can be deadly" ring any R22 safety notice bells?

Maximum

23rd Dec 2003, 19:26

What I find irritating is the contrasting treatment of the Virgin Captain and JM in the press.

One vilified and presumed guilty, the other receiving plaudits as a pioneering expert aviator.

I have no problem with JM taking a trip to the south pole if that's her thing, but it's the disproportionate attention and assumption of expertise in the media that is somewhat nauseating.

Professional pilots fly in hostile environments every hour of every day all over the globe, but are rarely perceived as heros. They just get on with the job.

If this crash had happened to a passenger carrying helicopter with a professional pilot, you can bet the farm the press would have been all over it like a rash, looking for any angle from which to point an accusatory, sensationalist finger at the pilot.

:yuk:

Johe02

23rd Dec 2003, 19:29

Ha ha. . That's true Steve, but landing downwind was the last thing I was worried about!!

Actually, I was adjusting my headset at the time and his point was, never take your hands off the lever when you're climbing out. Good advice . . . from a 'crazy person'. :rolleyes:

Well said Max. .:ok:

pilotwolf

23rd Dec 2003, 19:44

I believe the figure of 17 kts was the demonstrated sideways speed on the R22 - the speed required by the FAA, but Robinson actually achieved about 35 kts during testing.

Tim Tucker has a saying relevant to the antics of these 'Watch this types'...

"If you exceed the limitations or recommendations in the POH you ve just become a test pilot..."

And to anyone who says "watch this.."

"No thank you!!"

Grainger

23rd Dec 2003, 21:02

I've flown with Q quite a bit and, like others, learned a lot from him.

The best piece of advice I ever had was from someone who told me not to try and copy the things that Q does, but rather to take very careful note of anything he avoids doing . . . .

[email protected]

23rd Dec 2003, 21:26

Cyclic Flare - if Q really did the auto you described into radiation fog at night then he is dangerous not skilled - what exactly was he using to judge when to cushion...the force? the depth of fog can change in a heartbeat and just because there was 2 feet of it on the previous circuit doesn't mean it couldn't change to 5 or 10 feet in the interim.
If this is the way he flys then I for one won't be surprised when he ends up as a statistic - anybody who arrogantly flaunts limits and approved practises as he seems to is too arrogant to last. As someone else has pointed out - what about the poor sod who gets into an aircraft that Q has just overstressed and suffers the mechanical failure brought on by more 'let me just show you how bloody great a helicopter pilot I am'.

StevieTerrier

23rd Dec 2003, 21:42

Isn't it ironic that the more of Q's acolytes who post stories of his antics in order to show us what a wonderful pilot he is only help to prove the opposite? Ah well.

Grainger - I'd be interested to know what sort of things he DOES avoid???

Johe02

23rd Dec 2003, 23:15

Can you believe that someone could be THAT much better then you?

All sounds like sour grapes to me. . .

[email protected]

23rd Dec 2003, 23:23

Johe2, no there are lots of pilots much better than me but there are also lots (your hero Q for instance) who are much more stupid than me. I have to sit and let pilots fly difficult and demanding winching scenarios in the dark and in crap weather, usually without being able to see what the hell is going on on the right hand side of the aircraft and relying on the tone of the winchops voice and the control inputs to tell me if its OK or not - but that is my job and SAR pilots can't learn without doing difficult stuff. Who on earth needs to learn to do a zero speed EOL at night into fog?

Grainger

24th Dec 2003, 00:12

StevieT:

Well, taking your hand off the collective whilst climbing away from the field at 60 kts 150ft for a start !

Entering cloud is another one that springs to mind.

Heliport

24th Dec 2003, 02:42

Enough!

This thread gives scope for debating the wisdom or otherwise of the adventures of a named PPL who has actively sought publicity and whose exploits are therefore open to critical comment as well as adulation in any discussion which ensues.

Q's own adventure was discussed at great length when it happened. It is irrelevant to this discussion, and he has done nothing to invite or leave himself open to criticism on a public forum now.

It's obvious that Q has his admirers and his detractors. Those who've flown with him say they've learned from his skill and experience and will no doubt continue to do so. Those who haven't and don't wish, or have no need, to do so no doubt won't.
Others will make their own decisions, deciding for themselves whether to attach more weight to the views of people who speak from personal experience or more weight to those whose opinions are based upon descriptions of events they didn't experience for themselves and which may, or may not, be accurately reported.

Please let's keep to our well-established principle (and, incidentally, PPRuNe rule) of not attacking named people on a public forum when they are not here to defend themselves and have done nothing of a 'public' nature to invite comment.
I'm simply concerned about fairness in this instance. From what I've heard, he is much in demand as an instructor so adverse comments (informed or ill-informed) here are unlikely to damage his business interests.

Apart from all that, it's Christmas - the season of goodwill to all men.
No more posts about 'Q' from either side of the divide please.

Heliport

StevieTerrier

24th Dec 2003, 17:55

Grainger - fair point mate! And, as Heliport pointed out, its Christmas, so it's time for an armistice.

Everybody have a good one, keep your hand on that collective, keep out of the clouds and hopefully we'll all be back in 2004.

Grainger

24th Dec 2003, 18:10

Stevie / Heli;

Accepted, and quite agree.

A Happy and Peaceful Xmas to one and all....

G

Crashondeck

21st Jan 2004, 18:53

Say this article in the Times yesterday - makes for some interesting reading...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-7-969681,00.html

(If that doesn't work try the timesonline website and then search for "Jennifer Murray")

It seems like CFIT. Did they really descend to attempt a landing in white out?

Hats off to Colin for saving their lives whilst suffering such awful injuries.

COD

Maximum

21st Jan 2004, 20:34

............the article raises some interesting questions:

1.) why were they just wearing t-shirts? Doesn't exactly strike me as being prepared for something going wrong.

2.) obviously white-out is a common hazard in the Antartic. Had they adequately researched and prepared a course of action for this eventuality?

3.) The Times makes great play of the fact that Bodill did his rotary licence in a record six days. On the seventh day he did a conversion. Fifty-one hours flying it says, in seven days as well as fitting seven written exams and two flight tests in. Well, if what the journo has written is correct, that's over 7.2 hours flying per day, plus the exams. NOT THE BEST learning environment to leave a lasting foundation of skills from what I know of teaching people.

(I've edited a bit of a rant I had at the end of this, as reading it again, I thought it was less than objective, and I certainly do not mean to cause offence.) Just interested in peoples' opinions on the above.:cool:

Whirlybird

22nd Jan 2004, 02:07

Maximum,

Colin got his helicopter licence before he and Jennifer took part in the London to Sydney Air Race. So he's had a fair amount of helicopter flying experience since he got it, whether it was sensible at the time or not. And he was hardly the average flying student to start with. So...don't know the answer to your question, but the above needs to be borne in mind.

Maximum

22nd Jan 2004, 02:28

Whirly, I didn't know that, I'd have to say in fairness it does put a slightly different slant on my third question. Thanks for the info. If I'm being honest, I suppose I do think it's rather a spurious achievement, rather like the "how many hours to go solo" type thing. But that's just my opinion and probably not that relevant. However, as you point out, he would have gained good consolidation in the subsequent air race.

The questions of suitable clothing and actions on loss of ground contact still remain.:confused:

Bronx

22nd Jan 2004, 02:59

1.) Just wearing t-shirts flying over that terrain was just plain stupid. Doesn't exactly strike me as being prepared for something going wrong either.

2.) Obviously white-out is a common hazard in the Antartic. Don't know if they'd adequately researched and prepared, but they didn't or couldn't cope with it when it happened. Had they any experience of it? London-Sydney was unlikely to include those conditions

3.) Two relatively inexperienced pilots, both PPLs without an IR between them, set off to fly over the South Pole. If they'd made it without incident it would have been lucky. They lucked out. The good thing is they lived to tell the tale.

Maximum

22nd Jan 2004, 03:28

Bronx, nicely put.

Whirlybird

22nd Jan 2004, 06:01

Fron "Now Solo", Jennifer Murray's account of her flight round the world.....

"I reminded myself that I had already coped with more testing situations than your average pilot ever faces: tropical storms, sand-laden air, severe turbulence, and a series of mechanical problems like the failed magnetos. Still, I had not had the pleasure of a full-on white-out. I was going to have to wait a few days for the chance of that experience". (Page105, while flying through Northern Russia)

I tried to find anything about the white-out, but it's late, and a while since I read the book, and I can't find it.

Certainly, on the face of it, wearing T-shirts in Antarctica and trying to land in a white-out don't sound exactly sensible, to say the least! But journalists aren't renowned for their accuracy, so let's not judge till we have the complete facts of what happened.

Bronx

22nd Jan 2004, 06:11

Whirlybird
Your loyalty to Jennifer Murray is admirable but the options seem to be mechanical failure, running out of gas or CFIT.
If it was mechanical I guess we'd have heard about it by now.
That leaves dry tanks or CFIT.
They'd not long taken off so unless there was a leak, they had gas.
That leaves CFIT which is what the journalist reports the pilot says.
What more facts do you need? :confused:

She says 'Still, I had not had the pleasure of a full-on white-out.'
You're a FI, do you think a PPL without an IR should be flying in conditions where a white-out is a real risk?

Whirlybird

23rd Jan 2004, 00:56

Bronx,

I'm not being loyal; I hardly know her. I'm just trying to be fair and objective.

There are PPLs and PPLs. If Jennifer has gained the experience to fly in such conditions without a formal IR qualification, then good luck to her. If she coped with white outs in the far north, then maybe she has. And maybe not. I think so far it's all unproven. I don't trust journalists to get things right, that's all.

Grainger

23rd Jan 2004, 01:22

As I understand it they were trying to monitor the descent using a radar altimeter and contacted the surface unexpectedly when it was still reading approximately 140 feet - the misreading possibly being the result of the "ground" being ice rather than solid rock.

Maximum

23rd Jan 2004, 01:59

couple of points......

Whirly, you say,There are PPLs and PPLs. If Jennifer has gained the experience to fly in such conditions without a formal IR qualification, then good luck to her
with all due respect, I think that's a dangerous road to go down - you're either IR qualified, or you're not, end of story. The accident reports are full of experienced VFR pilots who'd had the usual 5 hours instrument appreciation and thought they could hack real IFR. It's not that simple. You need to be rated and current.

Grainger, you quote the newspaper reportAs I understand it they were trying to monitor the descent using a radar altimeter and contacted the surface unexpectedly when it was still reading approximately 140 feet

..........if that's what happened, I'm afraid in my book that kind of backs up what I'm saying.

Crashondeck

23rd Jan 2004, 20:16

It is not so much a case of having an IR. Lets face it an IR allows you to follow IFR rules which means being able to depart from an airport, transit to another airport, hold if necessary and then land following a published procedure. To be honest, I can not see an IR as being much use in Antarctica unless there are landing sites with procedures out there. What counts is the hours of spent in IMC. Unfortunately, you dont get the latter without the former!

It is interesting to listen to ex RN pilots and crewmen who have been trained to operate in arctic conditions. As far as I can see, the content of an IR does not prepare anyone for whiteout. In my opinion a wise pilot who wishes to operate an unusual role or environment would seek out someone to learn how to cope with that new role/environment. It is evident from the quotes in the report that they didn't do that, or if they did, they didn't act on the advice they were given. To descend into cloud to land is a recipe for disaster - the accident reports are littered with such accidents.

Alan Bristow started flying helicopters in the Antarctic 50 years ago. There is nothing new in flying in that environment. Then compare the aircraft he used (a Hiller and Dragonfly) and the aircraft used by Murray and Bodill (all singing and dancing Bell). I'm not that impressed by people who feel the need to prove themselves in such a way, but it is not to say that they should be stopped from doing it.

What does interest me on this thread is the difference in attitude between pilots. Some say push the limits and take risks, others say that it is crazy to attempt such a feat without the right training and experience. I wonder if there is a correlation between these two attitudes and GA / professional pilots? In any case, there are old pilots and there are bold pilots.......

Maximum

24th Jan 2004, 01:49

Crashondeck, exactly my point.;)

Nigel Osborn

24th Jan 2004, 05:48

One of my previous companies I flew for have over 30 years experience in the Antarctic operating Hughes 500, Bell 206, AS 350 and S76. Two of the senior pilots had over 2000 hours in the Antarctic and plenty of line pilots with over 5 trips which can be 3 months to 6 months. I think that makes them reasonably experienced. Most did not have an instrument rating ( class 1 in OZ) but did some practise IF training up to night vfr standard ( class 4 in OZ ), so that they had a good working knowledge of what the AH was all about and also NDB and GPS homing.
The idea was they would know how to home to their destination, remembering that a magnetic compass was useless due to the massive variation so close to the magnetic pole. GPS was not available in my time and map reading was not too easy, so NDB homing was important. Also by having sufficient skill to use an AH, they could cope with limited IMC flight to get out of whiteout conditions by doing a 180, they were trained to avoid it in the first place.
Finally 2 helicopters generally went together with half loads so that if one went down, the other could pick them up. Also the crew always consisted of some experienced Antarctic pilots to help the new ones. For example I went down with a pilot on his 7th tour on my first and even though I was the chief pilot, he was the senior pilot for that tour because he had the experience and I didn't even though I had 12000 hours compared to his 6000.
I do not recall any cfit incidents in 30 years, so I wonder if we planned our trips better than these 2 adventurers who of course are perfectly entitled to attempt the trip.

rotorcraig

19th Feb 2004, 07:21

From BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/3501173.stm)

Polar helicopter flight still on

A grandmother who was injured when her helicopter crashed in Antarctica has vowed to complete her pole-to-pole journey.

Jennifer Murray dislocated her elbow while trying to fly from the South Pole to the North Pole.

The 63-year-old from Frome, Somerset, says she and co-pilot, Colin Bodill, 53, who fractured a vertebra in the crash, are both "raring to go".

"We are not the type of people to be put off easily," she said.

"We understand what went wrong and we are older and wiser now."

The pair, who have nearly recovered from their injuries, intend to leave for the North Pole at the beginning of 2005.

Mrs Murray said: "Colin would like to do the whole thing again and go into Antarctica once more.

Wrecked helicopter

"Then we would have a chance at breaking the record. I need a little more convincing of that yet."

Their Bell 407 helicopter went down in atrocious weather crashing in frozen wastes 120 miles north of Patriot Hills, a base on the northern section of the Ronne Ice Shelf in western Antarctica.

Despite his injuries and battling gale-force winds and minus 40C temperatures, Mr Bodill from Nottingham clambered out of the wrecked helicopter and wrapped his stricken co-pilot in a sleeping bag before setting up camp while waiting for rescuers.

They were eventually saved when a pilot from Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions flying a Twin Otter plane picked them up and flew them to the base at Patriot Hills.

Bronx

19th Feb 2004, 09:54

"we are older and wiser now."
It don't sound like they are. :rolleyes:

Nigel Osborn

19th Feb 2004, 11:57

I think my comments above still apply. I wonder if they are going to do some'snow' training?
Their report on what happened should be interesting.:confused:

autosync

19th Feb 2004, 16:33

Would somebody ever put these 2 geriatrics into an old folks home, before somebody gets injured with their pointless endeavours

rotorcraig

3rd Apr 2004, 18:18

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/3587401.stm)

Pilot wins life saving medal

An adventurer whose helicopter crashed in the Antarctic in a blizzard has been given a life saving award.

Colin Bodill, 54, from Nottingham was flying around the globe with his co-pilot Jennifer Murray, 63, from Somerset, when the accident happened.

He rescued his unconscious co-pilot in temperatures of -55C despite serious chest and spinal injuries.

The Royal Humane Society described the crash as a "nightmare scenario" and said he deserved his bronze medal.

Broken spine

Mr Bodill wrapped his co-pilot in a sleeping bag, erected a tent for shelter and lit a stove for warmth before collapsing from chest injuries.

The pair were flown to hospital in Punta Arenas in Chile where they were treated for their injuries.

Mrs Murray dislocated an elbow and some ribs, while Mr Bodill fractured his lumbar 1 vertebrae.

The Polar First mission was expected to take more than five months and included 160 stopoffs en route to highlight the work of the World Wide Fund for Nature.

Chinese warplane

The pair had reached the South Pole in Mrs Murray's helicopter, a Bell 407, at the start of their 33,000-mile (53,000km) trip when the helicopter crashed.

In 1998, Mr Bodill broke a record by flying a microlight from London to Sydney in 49 days.

And in 2000 he was forced to land his microlight by Chinese warplanes as he attempted to break a round-the-world record.

Mrs Murray was flying alongside him in a helicopter during the trip.

He had strayed into military airspace, but was later released.

Vfrpilotpb

4th Apr 2004, 10:16

Despite what seems to be a possible dangerous lack of "Snow" experience, these two "Geriatrics" as some have called them, appear to have enough guts and balls to undertake adventurous flights.

Can anyone of you previous posters say you would not undertake the same had you the funds to do so?

An adventure always contains a certain amount of uncertainty, or should we all be living with the sterilised knowledge of huge corporate,state or military back up, just to go an see what is over the hill!

Vfr

Genghis the Engineer

4th Apr 2004, 12:51

I'd guess every single one of us have learned from pilots who were at the time older than these "Geriatrics", or had considerably less hours than either of them: I certainly have.

G

davehearn

4th Apr 2004, 12:54

on the point of colin bodill getting his license in 7 days....
colin has a lot of experience within the aviation field as we all know but to be able to obtain a license within that time should not be allowed , to cram that much information into your brain plus the exams is going to amount to OFBS (overloaded fried brain syndrome) i would like to bet he did his training at **** air in wellesebourne!
i wonder if i had gone that route and crammed it all in in that space of time would i have passed my flight exam..

Flying Lawyer

4th Apr 2004, 14:59

i would like to bet he did his training at **** air in wellesebourne!I don't know where Colin did his training but, if it was HeliAir at Wellesborne, it was a good choice.
If I needed training for a flight like theirs, HeliAir would certainly be one of the names on my very short shortlist - especially if I was guaranteed I could have Mike Smith teaching me throughout.i wonder if i had gone that route and crammed it all in in that space of time would i have passed my flight exam.. Probably not, but I don't know anything about your experience, whether you have any other aviation experience/qualifications etc.
I know I couldn't have done it in a week, but I haven't got Bodill's vast aviation experience.

davehearn

4th Apr 2004, 18:12

point taken F/L with colins vast experience i would have thought the only exam he would need would be helicopter technical as he would already have passed the rest within his other activities.
i wasnt knocking heli-air as a training organization in any way, if it came across that way i do apologise, the point i was getting to is that its near impossible to train someone from scratch to pilot (be it fixed wing or rotary) in that short space of time.

Helisurfer

5th Apr 2004, 04:20

Award!!! They get and award for that? I thought it was just common courtesy to pull your crew from the wreck.

If they dont get at least a small amount of IFR training before trying this stunt again, the only award they are likely to get next time is a "Darwin Award".

Whirlybird

5th Apr 2004, 08:29

Helisurfer,

I'm inclined to agree about the award. As most of you know, I fully support these two, and most "adventurers", and wish I had the money to do something similar. But I've never quite understood people getting awards for rescuing family, friends, colleagues etc, in these sort of situations. Putting yourself at risk for complete strangers, yes! But someone had to put the tent up and get them both some warmth and shelter. Colin managed to do it even though injured, so good for him, yes! But...an award? I don't get it.

In the extremely unlikely event that I'm ever offered an award for anything similar, I think I'd turn it down.

Head Turner

5th Apr 2004, 10:09

It makes you sick, doesn't it? An award for being a human being. My mum stuck a plaster on my knee when I fell over and tore it really badly, blood every where and it needed stitches.
Can my mum get an award for saving my life as I could have bled to death.
No, of course not. She did what she did because.........no heroics, just did the normal thing... taking care of our fellow human beings

Head Turner

22nd Apr 2004, 12:45

So after all this.

What have we learnt from this?

Is it now safer to fly?

Have engineering advances ben made?

On the basis that we should learn something from the errors of others. I am appraising my attitude to flying.

Murray and co, we are waiting for your full report.

The Nr Fairy

10th Jun 2004, 14:40

AAIB accident report available here (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_029064.hcsp).

RDRickster

6th Feb 2005, 23:24

Hello PPRuNers!

I'm here in Anaheim, CA attending the HAI Heli-Expo (http://www.heliexpo.com/). I just had the privelage of interviewing Jennifer Murray & Colin Bodill, and will post the entire excerpt from that interview within the week. In my opinion, some of the responses in this thread have been unfairly negative. If we never attempted what others thought were impossible, we wouldn't continue to learn and improve aviation. As a helicopter pilot, who spoke with both Jennifer and Colin first hand, I feel that a lot of lessons and "firsts" were indeed learned... for the benefit of all. I believe that Colin and Jennifer are very genuine people and probably wouldn't go out of their way to defend themselves against the malice and venom presented here or elsewhere. I'll try to post some of the the technical information learned as soon as I can.

There WILL be another attempt made, and plans are in the works for a future liftoff (2006 - 2007?)

R2

Nigel Osborn

7th Feb 2005, 02:08

I don't think people are really knocking these "adventurers" for making these flights. It's just not particularly difficult if you have the money and a little commonsense, i.e. able to understand a met forecast, able to flight plan the fuel requirements correctly, able to not get too bored on long ferry flights and have a tough bum that doesn't get too numb.
As Whirlbird said if she had the money, she would like to do it and I'm quite sure she could.
Most of these "firsts" occured over 40 years ago in the antarctic, not sure about the northern end. Oz companies were flying the Hiller 12 in the antarctic years before some of these heroes were born. And of course helicopters were far more basic then and no gps.
So if doing this takes your fancy, go for it but remember it's no big deal.
Now doing a rescue in mid Atlantic on a black stormy night, that's difficult.:O

[email protected]

7th Feb 2005, 05:53

Ah Nigel, but that would mean having to experience real danger and use real skill rather than just having a big wallet and doing a ferry flight to Antarctica.

So he gets an award for being a fully paid-up member of the self preservation society - what about the pilot who actually rescued them and managed to land without crashing so they could be taken home to blighty?

Thomas coupling

7th Feb 2005, 11:23

RDRickster,
These people dont even get page 3 anymore, never mind page 1.
Too many doing it, and the challenge is no longer there. All been discussed before.
They haven't learned from their mistakes first time round, now they're off to do it again. Zzzzzzzzzz.

Keep throwing money until it sticks I suppose.

farsouth

7th Feb 2005, 22:52

"Most of these "firsts" occured over 40 years ago in the antarctic"............."????

Feb 4th 1963 - US Army UH1B's land at South Pole, having flown in from the Antarctic Coast, but are airlifted back to McMurdo by LC130 - First helicopters ever to land at Pole

January 28th 1999, Chilean Airforce Blackhawk lands at South Pole - First helicopter ever to reach South pole under its own power from outside the continent. It then returns to Chile, also under its own power. (Supported by Chilean Airforce Twin Otters).

December 17th 2003, Jennifer Murray and Colin Bodill arrive at South Pole in their Bell 407, but the aircraft does not leave the continent.

January 18th 2005, Smith and Brooks land R44 at South Pole after flying in from outside the continent (first piston engine helicopter to South Pole), however, the aircraft only flew back as far as 80 South (Patriot Hills) where it was loaded into the back of an Ilyushin 76 to be airlifted to Punta Arenas

No civilian helicopter has ever flown from outside the Antarctic to the Pole and back out again, and only one military has

A big wallet and an understanding of met forecasts does not make it "easy", nor does it take away requirements for skill, nor take away the dangers of flying in the Antarctic.

Nigel Osborn

8th Feb 2005, 00:27

Farsouth

My previous company operated in the Antartic for about 25 years. During that time, 2 of their pilots achieved 2000 hours there without mishap. In fact I can not recall a single pilot induced incident or accident. The machines did go down there by ship but tell me why flying across South America is more dangerous or difficult than flying across Europe or Russia or India or China or the Middle East or the Far East or Australia? Surely a ferry flight properly planned should not pose a great problem as long as the machine stays serviceable. I've only done 10 or so flights of greater than 4000 miles, all before the GPS was invented and neither I nor any other pilot had any problems.
I believe Dick Smith, a private pilot flew a 206 to both poles in the 80s.
Most charter companies just get on with the job and don't go looking for hero status, so no one knows how many pilots have flown to the south pole.
Yes, if they can afford it thats fine but don't tell me it's any harder or more dangerous than most flights pilots do every day. I know during my 44 years flying helicopters that I have done far more difficult flights than when I was in the Antarctic.

farsouth

11th Feb 2005, 12:21

I am glad to hear that your company operated so successfully during its Antarctic operations, and that you found it so easy. However, I can think of at least 5 total write-offs of helicopters in recent years in Antarctica, involving military, commercial, government and private operators as well as numerous accidents and incidents involving fixed-wing aircraft, the majority of which were related to weather conditions.

The flight across South America, while more risky in some parts than others (Amazon Jungle??), is certainly not the hardest part of flying to the Pole. There are still support facilities, (airports, fuel, hotels, food) at most of the planned stops.

Leaving South America, the 600nm leg across the Drake Passage is well-known for extreme weather. On arriving in the Antarctic, you then have a 3400nm round trip to fly, over a route where there are very few actual weather reports, no airports, little or no ground support, fuel only in pre-depoted caches, surface temperatures down to minus 25 in midsummer, landing sites at up to 10 or 11,000 ft.

I am not suggesting that this is the only place where a lot of these conditions are found, and pilots cope with them. But I still would say that to suggest that it is easy, and no challenge, and takes only little skill and a big wallet, to safely fly from outside the continent to the Pole and back again, is patently not the case.
Whether there is any point to these flights is a different question

( I think that Dick Smith only flew his 206 to the North Pole – his late-80’s flight to South Pole was by Twin Otter)