EK Pilot meeting, what a disgrace

[loungelizard]

Geeeze guys, wasn't that bloody riveting. Round and round we go, where we end up, F@#K knows. Should have taken the Mrs advice and stayed at home enjoying blissful masterbation.!!!

[RolandPullthrough]

Fortunately there's a U in masturbation. It's not just about me.

As Woody Allen once said 'Don't knock it. It's sex with someone you love!".

Is anyone else having doubts about the review (one of many) regarding how we reward our pilots for their hours etc? Ok, so it was just me again.

[loungelizard]

Yes, at the time of typing it did not look right, then again I must have been mastUrbating !!!

[Rosbif]

Climb to 350 is advertising for a VP flight crew at EK. ????

[NIGHTTRAMP]

RECIEVED A PHONE CALL ASKING IF I WOULD FLY ON MY DAY OFF. SUGGESTED THEY CALL BACK IN FEB WHILE I REVIEWED THE IDEA.

NT:E

[White Knight]

Fellas - your posts so far do not tell me much !! You're rambling.

Could someone maybe clarify, as I was unfortunately in another part of the world during said meeting:cool:

[Canuck767]

Bottom line gang....can some kind soul please elaborate on what the meeting yielded? Specifically, for those individuals who about to be interviewed for EK. Has things taken such a turn for the worse that it's not worth going through the process? I was hoping there might have been some hope generated at this meeting which would have addressed the concerns of the F/O's who are both there now waiting for a normal upgrade progression and also those who are coming. I still think that EK has a promising future with all the growth anticipated, but not if a person is going to be leap-frogged for ever.

Any constructive comments would be GREATLY appreciated..

tks

[Your Proxy]

Gents

Keep to the point. Angry as you may be, emotional venting will not help, nor portray pilots as any more than the bus drivers they are made out to be.

All points made at the meeting were taken in – whether they come to anything is another story. However some clear messages have been sent.

To get pilots EK will pay whatever the applicant negotiates and be moderated by how much he is needed. There is a free market approach so DEC’s would be well advised not to sell themselves short. This will be the trend from now on and it will happen again. Perhaps in 2 years time these DEC’s will see other DEC’s hired with even better packages. Or perhaps the market will dip, and with it the package.

DEC’s will be the way of the future to some extent as they hugely relieve the training burden and costs. A few basic sim sessions as opposed to F/O’s full conversion to Captain and F/O’s space filled by incomers conversion. This is a big saving.

As always a pilot’s value is being set by hours in the aircraft. Training in simulators, special project time etc does not feature. If the DEC’s did not have the hours they wouldn’t even get the interview whatever their status at their previous outfit.

EK may level the field to some extent by matching their own recent internal commands that have the DEC’s level of experience (from previous airlines) up to the DEC’s rate thereby saying there is no unfairness and everyone is paid by experience level. There’s not that many and it shapes the “new system”

In time this system will roll down to F/O’s. The days of the quick EK command are gone and F/O’s will always run the risk of DEC’s taking their place so less will apply. More money will have to be paid and again this will be paid on experience. F/O’s will see other join at a higher rate.

Low time captains who are in training would be well advised to think hard about keeping up their hours. Sim time never has, and probably never will, get the job or make the hours that are required for “pay for experience”. Get the hours otherwise your salary will always be down and you may miss out on a great job opportunity.

This also will prevent the low experience commands going into training. They’ll focus on the hours then consider training. The higher salaried pilots will make more per training duty so this will be attractive for DEC’s who have the experience and will quickly fill the gaps. Having done plenty of time away from home, training will be desirable.

There will not be an across the board increase in salaries. There never needs to be. Experience will place pilots on a ladder. The top end of this latter will be suitably rewarding for those that have experience. The bottom end will be occupied by those seeking to get that experience. The market at the time will decide what hours count to what placing.

We all know experience does not make a good pilot – that will be sorted out by recruitment processes.

Again EK sets the trend – this is the future of pilot hiring

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

There is probably some substance to that theory. i.e. i think that is how management hope it will work out.

The problem i see with the theory, is that it essentially turns EK into a contract job where everyone can negotiate their package. Albeit a long term one.

I personally can't see how they will continue to attract the quality and quantity of F/O's they need when their future seems so uncertain. I for one certainly woudn't have taken the risk of coming to a second rate outfit in the middle east if the current situation had been happening when I applied. Let alone the imminent change to credit hours, leave credits, deadhead credits etc that was alluded to.

I do agree though that the market will sort it out. As some have said on other threads, it may be time to dust off the resume in the event a better offer presents itself.



Cop U Later

The Rev

[Your Proxy]

Rev Dr D

Oh yes call it what you will, but bums in seats is what is needed. Did you ever think it wasn’t a contract? What guarantees did you think you had?

Quantity and quality will be dictated by the market. Price is what will attract F/O’s hence they will be paid more in the future on an experience basis.

And yes credit hours will change. No overtime if half the month has been on leave. That sort of thing has had its day.

EK is a business, pilots are costly labour and management are obliged to cut whatever costs they can.

Dust out that resume and take out a subscription to Flight. Who knows what’s round the corner?

[Canuck767]

I appreciate all the insight here guys, but does anyone have any definitive indication for command time now for those there and those who are being interviewed? I have no problem doing the normal wait time, but honestly ......do you see this as a dead end route to go by leaving a flying position to come to Emirates?

Do you think that with the massive growth (planned) that all this may be moot after all? Will the normal F/O get his command in 3 yrs (ish)?

what say you...

[Alien 433 ETAC]

Hi there boys!

Totally agree with Canuck767 and eager to learn more...

I am a pilot who has been considering a job at Emirates for a while now.

I actually applied last march, have been sitting in the holding pool for over 8 months now. I actually am very serious about coming to Dubai (or at least was until reading through the numerous threads on this forum). I didn't see the concept of hiring DECs with a good eye when I became aware of it recently (like the day after the info was put on the Emirates website) for obvious reasons... although I understand fully the reasonning behind the idea => comes with being Fastest growing airline in the world... It means they won't be calling or e-mailling me for a while longer either as well... or at least I thought!

I fly for AC and sit 1/3 of the way from the bottom on the seniority list and until that event (hiring of DECs), I had no problem whatsoever with the idea of quitting AC for a job opportunity with world class EK since the career perspective has been very appealing to us. My wife is also excited about moving to this part of the world should we be given a chance to join the ranks. We have been doing our homework for 8 months now and we are still quite ready to go through the process (should we be given the opportunity).

I am more than OK with doing my time at EK before a left seat upgrade and do my classes and learn the culture of the airline and the route structure.

However, I'm still debating...

....not so sure anymore it would be a fair idea to give away my current seniority number to commit myself (all the way) to a future employer who would not commit on giving me a reasonnable career progression guaranty...

Some of my fellow pilots at AC have had interviews with EK but it seems most are not willing to go (quit AC) at this time other than on a LOA (leave of abscense) maybe, even with AC's dire financial situation.

Feels like I should be hired on a contract and send my resignation in [to my current employer from a LOA] when checked out on the line as a captain with EK... It might just be a good question for the interview board... I don't know. That would probably destroy my chances as well! I sure know it would bug everybody who had to quit a job to go to EK and take the plunge in the unknown.

As a note, I had enough command jet time for a fast track upgrade (according to the hours minimums posted on EK website) before they changed the numbers recently. Now I don't qualify anymore... Again, with (what used to be) normal progression, it is not a show stopper for me.

Still, I'd like to know, like my pal Canuck767, what I'm getting into if I am to get into it... Time will tell as for everything in life!

Is Emirates likely to adjust to this situation in a manner that would satisfy the troops who built the airline?

I thought the morale was extremely low at AC. Never anticipated a morale problem with EK. Is there one? or is it just venting from a few EK pilots.

Waiting for your thoughts EK lads.

Cheers! Alien

[fatbus]

A good part of what you read is venting, if things do not change alot of guys are getting biffed( no offence to Biff). There is a concern of recuiting quailty F/O's and being shot of Capt's,all F/O's at the meeting were told again they will be upgraded on time.At some point in time upgrades will have to be longer than the min 3 years just have to do the math. Yes the pilot group voiced there neg. feelings toward the DEC and there pay levels and the message was heard loud and clear, will it make a difference - " that's under review". It was a slap in the face for any Capt that has been here less than 5 years.
Still lots of good F/O's appling, I think a good ? on the interview would be upgrade progression since it is a big issue right now. Would show you are following what's going on right now.
They did say that the fast track upgrade requirments are going to change, should find out in the new year so stay tuned to see if you become quailified again.
This last meeting might/will cause some guys to leave to what they think are greener pastures and that is usually good for everyone.I think every job has it's good and bad. The company is in good shape and these 340- 300's will be flown( my take on what's going to happen).
The other thing to watch for is cruise pilots!!!

That it for now ,
Have a good HO HO HO

[ekslave]

Alien..... in response to your post, let me explain my current position.
X number of years ago, I identified EK as being a potential good employer. I had only heard positive news, was impressed with the "spin" that EK were spreading, so decided to take the plunge. I remember some of the old guard at my former employer trying to warn me off - but I new better !!
I left a secure job with a good pension and persuaded my wife to bite the bullet and uproot to a foreign land, half way around the world.
Initially, on the whole, things were fairly good. Not the best conditions, not the best pay, crap accommodation, but the sun shone and life was reasonable.
What impressed me most of all, was that pilots did not moan, after all, almost everyone had made the decision to come out here themselves. It took a little getting used to EK calling me on a day off (definately not allowed in my old company), but generally it was give and take (in the good old days of rostering). I stuck with the programme, got a reasonably quick command and got on with life. I now have 12,000 hours and nearly 3,000 in command, so what's the problem ?

Sorry, finger trouble....

I wished that I had listened to the old, wise pilots.

The current plan has been so well thought out, that we are now faced with DEC's being employed at rates above many of our present captains.
How do I get a payrise.....simple, resign then reapply as a DEC. So what does x years of seniority count for ....nothing !!
We have seen this with captains, are f/o's about to follow.....probably. All we need is bums on seats so if we need x pilots, go and hire them at todays rates and sod the present pilots who have shown dedication and loyalty as they are either bonded or cant leave quickly as they have gone to the trouble (and considerable expense) of relocating their families, have children at school etc. Anyway they are the lucky ones already working for this dynamic company, flying shiney new jets, with safe and secure jobs, that should be enough.
Unfortunately, unless the present situation changes, there is going to be a mass exodus from EK. The pay has slipped way behind the going rate, Dubai is a very expensive city to live in, our provident fund has taken a massive hit. To beable to enjoy any sort of comfortable retirement you can no longer plan on ending your flying career with EK - not unless you plan on retiring to the 3rd world !!

Would I give up a secure job to come here now - definately not.

[max AB]

Proxy I think you are overstating the savings in training with DECs. I agree there is a saving but whether you upgrade from within or use a DEC you still have to train another FO. The DECs aren't going to fly by themselves, so that is cost neutral. If the DEC is not current on EK fleet, which it sounds like some aren't then there is extra training there also. Savings yes, but not huge.

[scanscanscan]

Gulf Air did all this DEC stuff in 1977 and refused any FO promotion to Captain for expat Fo but in the spirit of non discrimination they let Arab national Fo pilots upgrade.
Many expat Fo left and this policy was cancelled.
Gulf Air also did a new contract for all its ex pat pilots trick, this was issued as a "Sign this or resign basis" in 1976.
Sheik Eassa cancelled this trick for pilots presently employed and they remained on the same terms.
New hires were allowed to be screwed downwards regarding terms and conditions. Every batch of new hires got a worse contract.
The above management policy resulted in the excellent airline that Gulf Air is today and an accident.
I think the best thing Emirates could do today is to hire a retired ex Gulf Air Captain (like myself) who has seen 26years of Gulf Air management cockups.
This would help Emirates avoid the future huge and costly mistakes GF made and Emirates are presently about to make regarding real cost effective management of crews.

[Alien 433 ETAC]

Thanks ekslave and fatbus for your comments...

Would anybody else like to add anything?

Cheers!

Alien

[Masha]

You may claim that I am pro-EK but guys dont believe all grapevines:p trimotor your source should be a guy who may have discussed the topic confidentially with EVP - Do you know whether the guy who spread the rumour was playing "good guy" or covering his A*S - 99% of those who claim to have spoken on behalf of us try and save their skin

Anyway from what I have heard they have revised the steps offered to joining DEC - wonder whether my source is correct :O