2003 QANTAS cadet industry placement

[jcbp3]

In reply to the comments made in previous postings with reagrd to the 2003 cadets being placed in air north etc etc.., i disagree with certain comments made about the cadets having the easy way there. Many of these guys and girls have worked several non-aviation jobs for many years to have a shot at the cadetship, then when they finally do get in, i don't think that just because they are getting turbine jobs with only 200 hours, that there should be soo much negative feeling towards these guys. just because they have been sloggin there guts out at woolies for a few years to save up the cash instead of out in the bush, should not make much difference about having it "easy".

As for the issue with regard to the standard of proficiency that exists after only 200 hours..well i don't think that is as big as people have made out. sure..it still is only about 250 hours total in the end, but this flying has been specifily tailored to train for these positions. pilots that have flown with some of these guys have been amazed with the level of polish that they fly with after only so little time, and in many instances have reported more technical knowlege and general flying ability then compared to other direct entry f/o's conterparts.

i am only the first to admit that at the end of the day, there is still no substitue for the actual hands on experience that can be acquired through GA, but if you were one of these guys..would you really knock the oppurtunity back to do this type of flying?

i am interested in any feedback that might be out there?

J

[Tempo]

yawn................boring

This has been discussed so many times!

[thinking pilot]

And what type of experience do you have laddie.

[speedbird23]

I have no problem with the cadets getting the jobs. You get what you deserve in life, most of the time. But as for there training being tailored made for airline jobs, thats crap. How many of their instructors have worked in an airline, or even GA charter for that matter. I learnt at a school that had Qantas cadets, therefore the same instructors. They were the biggest tossers I have come across. Not one thing they told me about my first job or the conditions was true. These people have themselves come straight from a flying school. I remmber 1 lesson getting shown a "commercial approach", high speed apparoach @ 300ft. I think the real industry term for that is a "beat up". I learnt more in my first 200 hours in my job then the 200 hours I paid $55 000 for.

[John Citizen]

You say :
Many of these guys and girls have worked several non-aviation jobs for many years to have a shot at the cadetship, then when they finally do get in,
just because they have been sloggin there guts out at woolies for a few years to save up the cash

Do not try and tell me cadets are the only one's to go through the above and non cadet/GA pilots don't.

I think you will find more often than not (simply due to cost difference), cadets are the one's who have been sponsered by rich mummies and daddies because they can afford it, whilst non-cadets are more often self sponsored through the hard work you mentioned above.

Then when a non-cadet gets his GA job, the hard work continues :
- self loading /unloading
- no autopilot / EFIS / fancy avionics that do everything
- no air con / no APU so you can sit back, sip some coffee and enjoy watching others load your aircraft
- no ground support
- casual pay
- no flight attendant to serve you
- no Captain/support pilot /2nd pilot to make life easier
- your own refuelling (out of drums)
- washing aircraft
- flying old aircraft (older than pilot) that are in very poor condition
- and most importantly, cadets don't experience being treated like **** by working for the usual GA company
the list continues...........

[Waypoint 74]

jcbp3,
Fact 1:I know quite a few cadets, but are yet to meet one that has been "slogging it out at out at Woollies". Most got the 80 to 100K from daddy (to be paid back - ofcoarse!!-yeah right).
Fact 2:Cadets can demonstrate reasonable proficiency sitting in the RH seat of a Brasillia under the supervision of an experienced Cpt (lets face it, really not a difficult task anyway) but put one in a C-206 in the highlands of PNG on a crud day (or fine day for that matter!) and they would be darn useless!

Couldn't resist

[mdot]

They choose their own fate. Wanna be stuck in the RH seat of a Bras for all eternity. Good Luck - enjoy it.

Must be a real strain when you see people coming up and passing you to a LH seat when you have three times as many hours in the same aircraft.

Good Luck to you cadets.

Personally I coudnt handle having that happen to me.

[Hugh Jarse]

Then when a non-cadet gets his GA job, the hard work continues :
- self loading /unloading
- no autopilot / EFIS / fancy avionics that do everything
- no air con / no APU so you can sit back, sip some coffee and enjoy watching others load your aircraft
- no ground support
- casual pay
- no flight attendant to serve you
- no Captain/support pilot /2nd pilot to make life easier
- your own refuelling (out of drums)
- washing aircraft
- flying old aircraft (older than pilot) that are in very poor condition
- and most importantly, cadets don't experience being treated like **** by working for the usual GA company
the list continues...........

How does any of the above make you a more professional or better pilot in an airline, John?

No matter which path you take, there are always shortcomings.

I have a question for you all:Hands up all those who, given the opportunity, would refuse a cadetship with an airline and choose to accept the conditions of employment quoted above with no guarantee of ever getting an airline place?

None? I thought so.:E:}

[John Citizen]

The duties that I mentioned do not make you a better airline pilot and I never said they did.

It is just that jcpb3 was originally trying to tell us how hard these cadets have worked to get to where they are when many of them would not have a clue what hard work actually is.

[bitter balance]

Waypoint74, I know plenty of cadets who have slogged it out in the PNG highlands. They were a long way from useless. I also know plenty of cadets who spent their own hard earned on training. But don't let reality get in the way of your home spun wisdom (sorry "facts" :rolleyes: )

[Keg]

Ah, the anti cadet chip on the shoulder appears again.

W74, I also know 'quite a few' cadets and I could probably guarantee that I know 'quite a few' more than you do. Vast majority are decent operators and have the same levels of drop kicks, know it alls, top blokes and good operators as would any sampling of society.

JC, you may not have talked about the skills making a better airline pilot but the implication that cadets hang off the coat tails of 'rich mummies and daddies' makes it obvious that you think little of cadets. Just about all of the aforementioned 'quite a few' cadets come from the average background. I do know a few whose parents loaned them the money and the cadets are repaying it with interest. In most cases, the loan was in the form of increasing the mortgage on the family home- an option that would be available to a large proportion of Australians.

At the end of the day, I keep coming back to Hugh's question. Would anyone EVER knock one back to do THY? I didn't think so!
:yuk: :E

[jcbp3]

all very interesting schools of thought.

i am most intrigued in the feedback on this topic

J

[Mr. Hat]

Hardly anyone would knock back the opportunity of going straight into an airline including me. I mean really, who in their right mind has a deep down desire to experience some of the bastard acts that GA has to offer. Answer? Noone. We do it because we have to and hey its an adventure as long as it doesn't go on too long!

Plenty of characters in GA that do a year of scenics on 210s and suddenly call themelves "hard yarders" or better, pretend to suddenly be part of the "the school of hard knocks". Come on people.

On the flip side there are some people out there that darn near deserve a medal for putting up with some of the crap that goes on.

Plenty of Cadets that are rich mummy and daddy's little boys and girls.

At the end of the day what are the real issues?.....

Are cadets needed in an industry that is oversupplied with already qualified people?

What do the senior captains at the regionals really think of the 200hr chaps vs the GA chaps?

Is it all just a money making/lowering of wages and conditions excercise?

Some thoughts. Hat

[thinking pilot]

I've finally worked it out

Pilots are no more skilled than bus drivers.

Well I'm glad I've left the f****** industry

Cadets are the way to go.

45 years of age and nothing to offer.

[MoFo]

I think the cadets "placed" in other organisations to learn to experience the aviation caper will learn to be excellent bar fighters.

I would imagine the crap they cop from the existing pilots who see them as a protected species would lead to the inevitable Australian way of settling the argument. However copping cr*p should enhance their ability to cope as the Captains sexual advisor as second officers on the 747-400. "If I want your f*cking advise I'll ask for it!"

Personally I'd rather them have some real experience unlike some of the the narrow pussys previously produced.

[VH-ABC]

As has been the case with the cadet thread MANY times in the past... One of those ones where it's probably better just to agree to disagree... everyone's opinion should be respected, and everyone's opinion counts.

[daytrader]

Would Hardy give a cadet a left seat in a 402?? Or even a 210???

Not bloody likley.

[Monkey Magic]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Oh dear, these cadet threads are rediculous..... seems to me like a bunch of people arguing over something they can't change.

The cadet program exists so GET OVER IT. At least a few people out there must have good reason to keep it in operation.

If we're not arguing over cadetships it's aviation degrees.... God help a cadet who posesses a degree, surely they must be incompetent!

[bitter balance]

Daytrader, I know plenty who have occupied the L/H seat of 402s, 210s and larger turbiney types. As I said earlier; don't let reality get in the way of your home spun wisdom (sorry "facts" :rolleyes: )

[Grog Frog]

Hard to believe some of the bulls hit and envy here.

Since when has it been a crime to have well off parents. Should professional flying be left to those that were so poor that they had to hop to the airport on one leg (to save the leather on the other one) after working 36 hours a day in 10 jobs to raise the funds (after supporting their siblings’ families)

Do any of you ladies and gents resent any other professional if their parents happen to have (your perception of ) wealth ?? If I want to assist any of my children into following me in my chosen profession (why I would encourage them, I don’t know), why then should they then be an outcast, because I helped them.

Many moons ago a group (myself included) used to pay out on a peer whose parents had funded his training, my attitude changed when one night (after many beers and wise cracks,) he replied, what would you do, tell dad to stick his money up his …..

That is the question. What would your answer be.


Merry Christmas (Cadets Included)

[Transition Layer]

Mr Hat

Plenty of characters in GA that do a year of scenics on 210s and suddenly call themelves "hard yarders" or better, pretend to suddenly be part of the "the school of hard knocks". Come on people.

Very true indeed...I myself did about 15 months in remote area operations very much like you describe. I did it hard during that time, but by no means as hard as some who do 4,5,6 even 10 years of that sort of flying. I do have an idea what it's like though...

BUT! -

On returning to Sydney I was at dinner with a group of friends and became re-acquainted with a friend of a friend who had completed his Qantas cadetship and initial line training whilst I was away.

I was keen to hear a few of his stories about QF as I had always thought of him as a good bloke. We got on to what I had been doing and what my career aspirations were. After hearing I had submitted a Qantas application, he replied in the most patronising voice one could muster "Oh mate, a bit more experience, and a few more hours under your belt and I reckon you'll be a chance."

I nearly fell off my chair. As it turned out, he had about 400hrs total at this point. Now I only had just over 1000hrs (not a huge amount by any stretch of the imagination) but hearing that cr*p coming from his mouth made me fume.

I would never have knocked back the opportunity at a Qantas cadetship, in fact I applied at one point in my training and didn't pass the interview.

I know it's just a one off, but it kind of made me glad I hadn't been a cadet...because this individual had certainly lost any sense of reality about what this industry is about.

Cheers,
TL

[*Lancer*]

I've posted so many times on cadet threads, but at the end of the day it always comes back to the same things!

There are well discussed advantages and disadvantages with the different ways of landing an airline job (RAAF, Cadet, G/A etc). At the end of the day everyone is there to do the same job, to the same standard, and in the same conditions, drawing on both differing previous experiences (of varying sources and levels), and general aptitudes.

To top it all off, we can all agree that there are morons everywhere in the world - and that sometimes includes our own organistions. Being a moron is independant of whatever background you have!

Maybe one day the cadets that fit the stereotype so often discussed here will experience something that helps them to grow up a bit. Maybe that same day some of the people that read this board will realise that not everyone fits the different stereotypes you are so eager to place on people.

Then again, maybe I'm just a moron :8

Lancer


As for reality - there is no spoon ;)

[Mr. Hat]

TL see your point and agree with Lancer.

I thought I had done a few hard yards with my years in the bush copping bastard acts left right and centre till I met this VB effo who had been in GA for 14 years and had fiinally cracked the big time.

Now he may not have had the "cadet" training with all the bells and wistles but did this guy have some passion! I take my Hat off really - the guy had honestly given everything to the career and had never given up.

Couldn't care less about cadets vs GA.

What I can say is that this bloke will appreciate every minute up the sharp end of a redjet and well done to him.

[Ratter]

Well, how surprising to see the cadet debate still raging. I have never replied to this sort of thread simply because there is no point griping about that which cannot be changed.

It would be hard to count how many different angles there are on the cadet debate. Put simply, airlines (management) like cadets for the $$$$$ reason. Whilst i am a GA puppet and i do not like cadetships (the whole us and them thing) i can see the business perspective. I would love to see more DE recruitment, but, remember we cannot change the world we should simply try and get by in it.

I agree with you Mr Hat, the longer it takes the more it is appreciated. I am self funded and have worked in GA for a few years now and whilst i am still searching for greener pastures i am thankful for every hour that i do. Remember. you are flying, that is what it is about! for me anyway.

It will happen for those that stick with it. Happy flying all, keep it safe.

Ratter

[*Lancer*]

Ratter, the $$$$ reason has been mentioned before, but I fail to see where it comes from... Qantas doesn't get any financial advantage from operating the cadet programme. What am I missing?

[John Citizen]

This doesn't surprise me. The boffins already see "GA experience as of little or no value in the airline environment." (this was said in exactly these words by a Massey University aviation "professor" to a group of pilots attending an airline CRM course in CHC (airline is no longer with us, neither is it's Aussie parent) We were suitably mortified and didn't take much notice of what else this woman had to say.
Now I don't want to offend any "cadets" or university trained direct entrants, but that is just garbage. A few thousand hours in GA, be it single pilot air transport ops, night freight or whatever, is of more practical value than a year or 2 sitting in a classroon or buzzing around with several other students in a light twin.
I have 20 odd (very odd!) years of aviation experience, with at least 3 quarters of that in "proper" airlines, the rest in GA and instructing, and nothing beats good old experience. I've seen some very good pilots come out of cadet style training, but I've seen some real idiots too. Whilst not everyone who rises through the GA ranks is an ace, it certainly seems to have a way of sorting out those with the aptitude and ability to succeed in the airline environment. They may not all have a great technical understanding of the ins and outs of theoretical CRM and aviation "psychology", but I know who I would prefer to be with on a really crappy night out in the middle of nowhere facing a non precision approach with half the flightdeck instruments not working!
Again, I don't want to offend those who are university or cadet trained, but those who come through GA are more likely to have had experiences that will stick with them for life.
That's what I reckon anyway!

[Ratter]

Lancer, I am no expert on the pro's and con's of a cadetship, but everything today revolves around money, and if not money then convenience.

If Qantas receive neither from a cadet program then it begs the question of why bother? Stick at it guys, it will happen for the GA people and it will be ore appreciated.

Happy new year all.

Rat

[ROB-x38]

'scuse the ignorance but i don't know much about the cadet program :O

Where do qantas cadets go if they graduate and qantas wants them? Do they get a job as s/o (crz pilot)? A job flying smaller aircraft with a qantas affiliate? Do the minimum entry requirements for the rest of the population gte ignored?

[Nevile Bartos]

Ahh the good old cadet arguement. I was selected as a QF cadet around 3 years ago now and am now in a non-flying aviation job with ASA.

I have to say I met a lot of ******s at the interview and testing process, however, also met some good guys. It is the same anywhere you go that you are bound to meet d**kheads.

I have heard a few stories though from a friend who is a SO on a 744. Seems a few think they are special and have to be told to pull their heads in. I can tell you they don't sound too special on the radio, barely able to give position reports at times. On another occasion one couldn't understand what reporting established north of a VOR meant, the captain had to step in.

I think the industry placement is a good idea to produce a hopefully more rounded cadet. In the end I say good luck to those who can pass the course.