Drugs and flying

[magick-]

Hey all,

I'm sure this has been dealt with before, and whether it has or not it won't go down well with most of you - maybe i just want to be flamed, who knows? :)

Anyway, just wondering what the general opinion is about drugs and flying? Now i'm not talking about going out and sticking enough coke up your nose that you need to take out a mortgage, I'm talking about a situation such as perhaps being out with friends, someone passing around a joint and having a few puffs.

Now, apparently cannabis stays in your system for 30 days... Meaning that, theoretically, after such a "moment of madness" you should avoid all flying for a month! What's the general consensus on this - have you ever been out and done such a thing? If so, how much did you worry afterwards?

Gladiators, are you ready? 3..2..1..flame!

[Cusco]

I spy a Troll: careful chaps.

Safe flying

Cusco.

[magick-]

jeez some of you guys are paranoid. everyone who asks about anything that you're slightly concerned about you attempt to publicly brand as a "troll". the amount of times i see people posting genuine, often significant questions, get wantonly abused for doing so really begs questions in my mind as to the purpose of the site.

i must be honest, if i were to judge the aviation industry, and pilots in particular, on some of the attitudes displayed here, it would appear that it is in fact one of mistrust, paranoia and stupifying arrogance.

as for my question - take it or leave it. i have no interest in journalism, causing friction, or any other activities that you may frivolously dub "trolling"

- and while we're on the subject of trolling, half of the people who so flagrantly use the word don't really seem to actually know the definition:

Deliberately post an offensive or contentious message in a public message base, with the specific intent of provoking flames.

now, my friend, if you would care to inform me how this description could possibly describe my post, or half of the posts that are so unjustifiably branded the same, as fitting that definition. perhaps because i mentioned drugs? would you prefer for people such as myself to be silenced, and never to discuss topics that you personally deem "taboo".

may i suggest, sir, that the next time you read a post, you perhaps attempt to somehow muster the intelligence to simply bite your tongue and say nothing if, as was the case this time, you have nothing pertinent to contribrute.

FOR THE RECORD:
danny - your site is brilliant. the underlying logic, ideals and objectives behind it are flawless. however, all that i can say is that if, due to the arrogance and mistrust of many of the its members, pprune can no longer be a place for people to come to for advice and questions on the industry then it's a sad time for everybody involved.

[aztruck]

Oi ....first off, I have never...repeat never met a Professional Pilot who smokes dope, and I have met plenty of Doctors, lawyers and journos who are coked/stoned/ ecstasied out of their planets on a regular (once a week) basis.
On an anecdotal basis I dont know any recreational Pilots who indulge in such things either.

[griffinblack]

Magick-

You might help your cause if firstly you filled out your profile, so that others could get an understanding of your background. Secondly, I think some people may be concerned that this was your first post.

Anyway, just wondering what the general opinion is about drugs and flying?

Edited for personal abuse.

[K. Soze]

3 posts in 2 days from newly registered members makes you wonder. Check:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=1106929#post1106929

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=112315

[magick-]

i really find this whole deal more depressing than the situation that caused me to seek help, but i suppose that i should respond to the replies so far:

aztruck: you seem very emphatic and admittedly, within an industry such as this, your comments may be held true. however, the individual points could be read in two ways.

i) you never met anybody that has ADMITTED that they smoke pot, but do you really think that, if they did, they'd broadcast the fact? Is it not possible that you HAVE in fact met, and potentially FLOWN with somebody who, within the last 30 days, had done as little as a puff on a joint?

ii) you imply (and i am more than happy to be corrected on this, as it is an interpretation issue) that i am talking about people taking pot, or indeed any drugs whatsoever, on a regular basis. As far as I interpret (and again, i could be misinterpreting) you are not actually offering a reply relevant to the post, within which i am referring to the one-off "indulgence" that is regretted in retrospect.


griffinblack: I agree that i probably did not help my case by not posting details on my profile, but believe me i have reason. Surely it must cross your - and indeed everybody's - mind that there may be certain posts that, perhaps, people create in a sense "anonymously" while still having the luxury of things such as (and as unimportant as it seems to some, it is equally as IMPORTANT to others) email notification of replies?

Yes, I admit it, I dared to create....a second account! Do you really think that I wish to make it publicly known that I am enquiring after such things - which may personally effect me? Even if my other username is not even well known, should I risk everything on my post?

Now, I can see myself being branded a hypocrite. "If he doesn't think it's OK to ask under his normal nick, why should it be OK for people to reply to said post?!" And as far as I'm concerned, people NEED not reply. Any replies posted are done so by individuals who I believe, considering a significant number of them are regularly in charge of 200+ pax, are capable of making that judgement themselves.

However, I believe that it was clearly in my previous reply (and, as I thought at the time, also made clear in the original post) that the situation should realistically be clear enough that, should anybody wish to reply, yet have nothing relevant to add - or to join the seemingly widespread pastime around here of denouncing me as a "troll" (a common accusation by all accounts) - they really should save their time + breath. This is not a question looking for answers in the form of "yeah, fsck off, you're trying to get us in trouble".

K Soze: yes, unfortunately for me I also noticed these other posts (as dumb as I might look i do have a couple of braincells to rub together, especially when it comes to something in which i have a vested personal interest in) - which in fact rise well above my own in terms of viewings and especially contributions (maybe i upset too many people ::uhoh:). Like I said, this is very unfortunate for me. Yet I cannot see what exactly I can do to CHANGE this. Again, as pointed out above, if people wish to post it's their choice. I have publically announced that I have no interest in screwing anybody else over, simply in something that is, right now, HIGHLY relevant to myself. If people wish to reply, yet are afraid about the publicitiy, please feel free to PM me. If you do not wish to risk even doing that then -more unfortunately for me than for you! - I have no other suggestions on how to relay your advice.

To summarize: as I stated in my earlier (admittedly rather heated) reply, I'm asking for advice here. Advice that could affect the rest of my life. If you have such advice, great. If you have yourself been in such a situation, or indeed know of others who have (and look people, I'm not asking for NAMES, i'm asking for ADVICE) then I appreciate your replies.

I see how my own reply may be viewed as a flame, but please understand that not only am I personally under considerable stress, I also feel that in principle I was justified, and that something had to be said.

As far as I'm concerned, PPRUNE is - and should remain - a place that others and I can come to requesting advice. I don't think that I should be scared (as I have been for many months) of posting such a question. Unless, of course, somebody can recommend a different site ;)

So, if you have advice I welcome it with open arms (and trust me, they're REALLY open. In fact, my shoulders've started hurting :)). But if all you can bring is scepticism at the sincerity of my request then feel free to ignore - i'd rather you did that than push me into a pointless rebuttal.

magick-

[soggyboxers]

magick-
Any professional aviator who meddles in any way with drugs, either hard or soft, is a complete fool. It's an absolute no-no. You may have noticed on another recentr thread that even the alcohol limits for pilots in UK have now been lowered and there have been a couple of well-publicised cases of pilots being arrested in other countries after testing positive for alcohol.
Many of us are also subject to random drug and alcohol abuse tests at least twice a year and these tests easily pick up the presence of drugs such as cocaine and opiates (even the codeine - an opiate derivative itself - in some over-the-counter cough suppressants will register a positive).
I don't know of any professional aviator who takes drugs, do you? If so, maybe you should refuse to fly with them or consider talking to them about getting help for it.
Drugs and flying mix about as well as clouds and mountains if you're flying IMC - stay well clear of both!

[wbryce]

Well said soggy.

cannabis contains THC this is the substance that stays in your blood.

Its predicted that part time smokers take around 30 days without THC to clear there blood.

Heavy smokers upto 3 months.

You fit your little scenario into the above and tell me if a pilots out with his friend and smokes a spliff that he theortically can't fly for 30 days is horse....

One source of THC in your blood stream will disappear in a few days as there soo little.

No im not a pilot, and no im not a smoker, Drugs is now a major part in education.

[breakscrew]

Anyone who takes drugs and flies is incredibly stupid and is going to kill himself/herself pretty damn quickly. I cannot imagine any aviator in UK (professional or private) who is looking to commit suicide that way. Actually, I have never even heard it discussed before because it is a barking concept. Oh, and it does sound as if you are fishing Magick.

[strafer]

more depressing than the situation that caused me to seek help
something that is, right now, HIGHLY relevant to myself
I'm asking for advice here. Advice that could affect the rest of my life.
:hmm:
Majick, you obviously DO have an agenda of some kind (or you're a drama queen of the highest order). If you explained what it was, then perhaps people wouldn't be so derisive of your posts. Then again, perhaps they would.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Magick,

The only advice / guidance you'll get here is 'don't fly and take drugs'. Why not leave it at that, hey, and not get embroiled in long-winded, pointless arguments that can only degenerate into acrimony?

QDM

[griffinblack]

Magick-,

It appears Hawk thought I was personally abusing you in my email above. That was not the case. I aplogise if you thought it was. I think Hawk misunderstood were I directed my ire.

I think that anyone who does any form of prohibited or recreational drug and flies should be permanently grounded and in most cases preosecuted under. I think most aviators are aware of the adverse effects of smoking - particularly on night vision. I can take the moral high ground, as a non smoker, but beleive that even that should be prohibited.

Anyway, i still think you should fill out your personal particulars. how incriminating can it be?

[GhostofCain]

aztruck, I assume that the Professional Pilots you have met not only do not smoke dope but also do not take coke, as this latter drug is particularly dangerous too (risks of heart attacks included)...

[Re-Heat]

You would be naive to believe that no pilot that you have flown with has ever had a moment or two of madness, drunkenness, peer pressure or whatever, and had a drag of a joint at that time.

The 'drugs are bad, full stop' mantra, without any contructive advice is not helpful - I know of no UK pilot who would consider taking drugs; but in a drunken state who knows what people might do, or even remember doing?

I do find it incredibly hard to understand why BALPA is against full random testing in the UK, as it would enforce the 'fear' - so to speak - against having such moments of madness, yet this is despite drugs obviously being highly fraught with unknown consequences in our industry.

This is as an aside: Magick's problem must face at least a couple of young UK pilots, yet the advice is patronising and crap.

I would recommend not flying for at the very minimum 3 months, such that all trace of the drug comes out of the body. This is for the simple reason that not only may it be traceable in your blood for that period of time, but if you were to do the worst, and crash, you can bet your bottom dollar that you will be subject to every test under the sun: any trace anywhere of this will place you in the worst possible position with every party involved, eg insurance, CAA, club, friends and family.

Furthermore, if you do have friends who use cannabis, and you yourself smoke, you are of course going to be much more prone to taking a couple of drags of the stuff when it is around you due to association. Therefore seriously consider quitting smoking entirely, and at the earliest opportunity - look at it as your future career rather than your body at risk! I suggest associating smoking with a smoking(!) hole in the ground.

Finally consider if flying is what you really want to do - if the places that you go normally involved drugs, perhaps it is time to move on and and new friends. As seen from some of the more vociferous views - when found out you may well be sent to Coventry, as the trust implicit that is required in many crews has basically been broken.

I think it is very important that you create in yourself the 'fear' of taking drugs, of which you show some element simply by asking here, and obviously worrying to some extent about the consequences.

Consider the public reaction to alcohol and flying, and multiply it by 50, whatever the proven or unproven effects of that drug.

[soggyboxers]

Reheat,
Whilst I would agree that magick- has not received much advice about drugs and flying, that´s not what he originally asked:
Anyway, just wondering what the general opinion is about drugs and flying? Now i'm not talking about going out and sticking enough coke up your nose that you need to take out a mortgage, I'm talking about a situation such as perhaps being out with friends, someone passing around a joint and having a few puffs.
so I really see no need for you to be so offensive in your reply to all those who have said that their opinion is that drugs and flying do not mix.
Lighten up man; give your advice if you wish and try to be a bit more polite.:\

[Re-Heat]

Soggyboxers: I apologise if I appeared impolite - the wording was a little naff, and I have altered it as such. Strong feelings will always surround such matters of course, and I would not want to trivialise it by not being so serious.

[gingernut]

Hre's my two 'penneth.

Don't personally know anyone in the (GA) community who mixes illegitimate drugs and flying, even a couple of drags of the "harmless" (David Blunkett, not me), cannabis.

From a population perspective, the odds are that there will be some (I suspect a few), who do mix drugs and flying. This is because, whether we like it or not, a large percentage of people have tried drugs, and drug use worldwide is escelating. Some of these people will go on to choose a career in aviation. Sad, but its reality.

I'm not sure that anyone is in a position to say it never occurs in pilots, although from the comments so far, it is seen as a big no-no.

Should testing be compulsary? There is an argument that this pushes soft drug users (which are traceable for 30days), onto harder drugs, (traceable for 12-24hrs), so any strategy has to be carefully thought through.

My own view.....well they don't call it dope for nothing. Is it really that much fun ?

[Fogbound]

Re-heats comment on instilling a 'fear' of taking drugs I feel is a very valid one. I think that the apathy of todays soiciety is quite a problem in the fact that there is no punishment that instills a fear in any one therefore they choose to do 'the crime' as they will enjoty it at the time and will not have to suffer 'consequences'. This obviously applies not only to the drugs issue hear, but also to a broad spectrum of offences.

I was discussing the drugs issue yesterday with a colleague. My view on the subject is this.........

I am 22. I have decided flying as the career for me when I was 14. I have had a good up bringing and education. I have had the 'fear' in me that if i do x, y or z then I will not be able to fulfill my goals and ambitions in life. Whilst at school friends and associates of mine started to go down the drug taking route. I have seen the impact that it has had on their lives (yes it has changed them, not for the better usually. You cannot tell me that even 'soft' drugs such as cannabis do not have an affect on you permanently, i've seen what it has done to these people over the last 6-8 years). A tough choice had to be made and that was career or social circle. I chose my career. I disassociated my self from that group.

I have never ever taken any illegal recreational substances of any description and have no intention to do so in the future.

I decided that the friends who were smoking pot etc were putting my dreams at risk and I could not see them in an environment where they had been smoking.

Think of it this way. I have been so careful and have worked hard to ensure I have a good life and career ahead of me. It scares me to think that I go to visit a friend and they have been smoking pot that afternoon. I walk into the room where there is no signs of smoking, only a mustiness in the air. The next day I get a random drug test which shows positive for pot. I've just lost my career!

Or another way to look at it is you are associated with drug takers. one day they are arrested for possession or something like that. You will be tarred with the same brush!

Unfortuntately back to re-heats point about BALPA and random testing enforcement. With society becoming more accepting of this soft drug we are seeing it more in public places etc. If a pilot goes to a pub and happens to be near someone who is smoking pot he will then suffer passively. If he was the subject of a random drugs test how can he prove that it is passive from that situation and not him actually using drugs himself???

Ultimately magick must decide. Career or drugs, because (and I think quite rightly too) you cannot choose both!

[Re-Heat]

I think that Fogbound has hit the nail on the head, that being tarred with the same brush may be of equal importance to others' perception of you as well.

The problem is that in pot being seen as a good time drug, it can be hard to belong to the group without feeling pressurised to belong - overt peer group pressure is in my experience not particularly common compared to the feeling that you need to belong.

Certainly also being a 22 year old, I have in the past been to parties where unfortunately everyone else will use pot together, with on one occassion just myself and another not using the drug. I would be lying if I said that I felt that I did not consider joining in, however the fear at the time that I would be subject to random drug testing (I was in the UAS at the time), and the pure desire to follow an aviation career, prevented any further such thoughts.

Following this party I did disassociate myself from that group to some extent however I was shocked once to hear from a friend (of that group) that he thought that I had taken pot with them - not that I was in any doubt who had the clearest recollection of the event. Of course he was corrected.

At the aforementioned event, I did feel nauseous in the smoky environment, and it would hardly be recommended to be in the same room as cannabis smokers, however I am assured that THC would be unlikely to be present in the blood or detectable following passive smoking since the levels are relatively low.


I agree entirely that it's simply not worth losing it all.