DAT's Future Still Cloudy

[The Guvnor]

From todays's ATWOnline

Dateline: Tuesday December 04, 2001

Sabena Technics' and DAT's futures remain uncertain after a Brussels commercial court extended protection from creditors for Sabena Interservice Center by two weeks to Dec. 12.

The next day the court president will decide whether to grant the coordination center permanent creditor protection. If the creditors refuse the proposed business plan, SIC will go bankrupt and consequently so will DAT and Sabena Technics, which owe SIC
€112 million ($100.4 million) and €93 million respectively. As creditors to SIC, the assets of the units could be confiscated if the business plan is rejected.

Meanwhile, it is still not clear how DAT wants to position itself. Until now the Regional airline that is taking over defunct Sabena's routes has not presented a business plan.

Over the weekend, Minister for Public Enterprises Rik Daems countered rumors that
he had been asked for extra funding for DAT by either Maurice Lippens or Etienne Davignon. The industrialist duo is trying to amass €200 million, including €155 million from private companies, to fund Sabena's successor. "I have not been approached by either," Daems said.

The daily Le Soir had reported that Lippens and Davignon hope to double the eur200
million by asking the government for a further €75 million and converting the €125
million bridging loan inherited from Sabena into shares. The European Commission undoubtedly would reject the latter, as DAT would not be eligible for any state aid
because Sabena already has benefited from government funds. The terms of the bridging loan would prevent it from being converted, European Transport Commissioner spokesperson Gilles Gantelet said. But he added that there "would be nothing to stop the government investing in the company as a private investor." Neither the federal nor
regional governments is inclined to do so.

Despite its uncertain future, DAT launched thrice-daily service to Bologna and Hanover,
twice-daily service to Bordeaux and Bristol and a daily trip to Prague Sunday. It also
increased frequencies from two to three daily on flights to Hamburg, Turin and Venice.

DAT's load factor is approaching 40% and 54% of last week's bookings were for travel in 2002, a spokesperson said.

[redfield]

DAT has no business plan? They're certainly not faring too well at NCL in competition with BE. BE are advertising their route, DAT aren't. Yesterday BE had 31 pax compared to 7 on the DAT. Oh dear! :mad:

[thewwIIace]

i bougt a virgin express ticket to Brussels last week to see a friend and on the way there it was about 120 pax. on the way back was on a DAT aircraft that had 34 pax, spoke to the checkin girl and 31 of them were virgin pax on their allocation, the rest DAT. that was average load for DAT 3-5 pax. surely they cannot sustai this for long. virgin express seem to be keeping them afloat. we have noticed less 3rd party pax on our aircraft as well from one world. some airlines are benefitting whiles others not/.

[The Guvnor]

Latest from ATWOnline - I see that the cost escalations are already starting! :rolleyes:

New DAT unveils higher-cost business plan
Dateline: Wednesday December 05, 2001

New DAT's business plan calls for an investment of €295 million ($263.1 million), €95 million than originally planned, for the first phase of restarting Sabena through its
regional operator (ATWOnline, Dec. 4).

"We wrote a letter to Santa Claus," joked former European Commissioner and new DAT Chairman Etienne Davignon while presenting the plan. About 35 Belgian companies would invest €155 million, government agencies would account for €45 million and Sabena Interservice Center, which is operating under temporary creditor protection, would provide €95 million.

The plan's first phase comprises an exclusively European network with 34 destinations. The second phase would introduce 13 long-haul destinations, including three African routes [EBB, KGL and FIH], by year end, as well as some US destinations and more African routes next summer. The expansion would require an additional €115 million.

Davignon confirmed he is negotiating with the European Commission to extend the
three-month, €125 million bridge loan to Sabena by an extra three months. He also
did not exclude the possibility of extra government funds, which now represent about
15% of the €295 million in total capital.

Talks with Virgin Express are continuing, he
added; "If Virgin Express pops up with a better business plan than ours, we will
certainly listen."

[B.Navez]

Hi,

I'll be rude on this one, but as a Belgian - but not sabena! - pilot I'll say this: It seems like Dat is starting on the same wrong bases left over by our world-famous loss making national airline, since after a few weeks "existence" it requires the help of public investment (my money, indeed!!!). WHAT FOR? The market was open at BRU with sabena ceasing activities, and a lot of sectors were then left uncovered, so why did they immediately start making the same flight numbers and schedules as VEX and start playing competition? We've seen it: the outcome is that they leave with a single pax on board... So, kill this sick bird before it spreads its deseases again among us, because if it keeps running continuously with losses while being refilled with public investment, then it will also keep on killing the belgian market and scare investors away from putting money in new company.
TEA, Air Belgium and lately Citybird, all have been - some closer than others, it is true - victims of the unfair competition with sobelair, affiliate charter transporter to Sabena, because it ws running, this way:constantly making losses unpunished. No private investor can match this. Result: even the big fished who eated all the others got eaten... by himself.

A famous belgian story, again... and it ain't over believe me!

[Raas767]

2low2fast
I doubt many Sabena or DAT pilots would agree with you, but you are, never the less, correct. Belgium is obviously too small to support a flag carrier. Sabena and Swissair are only the beginning of an escalatring trend in Europe toward rationalization. I fear many more job losses on the horizon.

[B.Navez]

raas767,
well, rationalisation will certainly be un the agenda, that's true, but as far as job losses are concerned, I don't have enough experience in this world to judge that much, but I feel like the job cut happening now is more the result of the general downturn. At the time when they were crying after pilots in europe, airplanes were full though there were many airline flying, so, when the downturn will find an end, there might be less carriers on the market, but, the amount of pax will get back sooner or later, so there is still a chance that everybody find a seat back, dont you think?

[Raw Data]

Irrespective of who goes broke and who doesn't, the continuing trend will be for more demand for air travel... therefore more aircraft and more crews will be required- just not right at the moment!

Also, it is quite untrue that countries like Belgium can't afford a flag carrier- they can, they simply have to make it profitable. Same goes for all the others.

Having worked for Sabena in Brussels, there is no doubt at all in my mind that a huge amount of money was wasted on stuff that had nothing to do with the business of flying aircraft. That is the real problem.

[tomvanmigem]

Don't forget that Luxair's Director is a Belgian, and Luxair made the transition to a privatised airline a few years ago. Luxemburg's Big Brother Belgium is going through the same transition. The difference is that Sabena never made a big deal out of cargo carrying, and was therefore floored when carrying passengers (only) became non-profitable (according to the Swiss, that is).

I give DAT a good chance at survival if it doesnt have the same policies as Sabena w.r.t. cargo, code-sharing, etc. And I believe the new management has eyes and ears and common sense enough to let everyone have a say when it comes to policy and decision-making. :rolleyes:

At least the investors are convinced, after reading today about the 35 Belgian companies that have pledged to invest in our new Belgian airline (no longer a NATIONAL one).

[B.Navez]

Dear guys, your optimistic thoughts go straight to my belgian heart, but still it makes me feel like you don't measure the amplitude of the sickness that goes around everything that is concerned by Sabena.
I wish you are all right.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mirifly]

But apart from the CEO most of the DAT Mangement are the Sabena Management so what chance, perhaps they have learned from their mistakes. Feel a bit sorry for DAT, they would have managed better on their own, and
as they were doing before the big boys came
along to make a mess of things for them

:( :(

[BLEKE]

Everybody at DAT is convinced they can make it happen.Altough none of the pilots I spoke with are too happy about the salary cuts the general feeling is that the company has a very good chance to survive and to be profitable.
What is needed is some quick decision making by the various governments to invest so we can really start working and making some money

[The Guvnor]

It seems like the A330 option has flown out of the window for DAT with VG Airlines Freddy van Gaever and his chief pilot, Raymond Nicolai due to fly off tomorrow to Sweden where they will be apparently taking delivery of two A330s on lease from Novair.

These aircraft will be operated to FIH and other points in Africa; and will apparently be joined by more earlier in the year.

Apparently, this deal has been put together by van Gaever and Christoph Muller, the former CEO of Sabena.

Check out the new VG Airlines livery here! (http://www.webstudio.nl/liladesign/designillustrationsamples/view_alone.nhtml?profile=designillustrationsamples&UID=10033)

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[BLEKE]

Guvnor seemes to be well informed, I thought VG was going to fly to the States, or maybe I am not so well informed ?

[The Guvnor]

Bleke - transatlantic traffic is well down. I understand that they are in negotiations with a Dutch tour operator about operations to Aruba.

VG have also stated an interest in operating to South Africa (JNB and CPT) though with very low yields and a Rand that's collapsed 40% in the last 12 months this might not be a sensible move: traffic is huge at this time of year (December to March) but low throughout the rest of the year.

I suspect that an accommodation will be reached where DAT provides the regional feed to VG's long haul operations.

This would be a logical - and elegant - solution to the SN/DAT problem. However, as van Gaever is Flemish, it's likely that Walloon politics will interfere again! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[renegator]

Guvnor,
conerning those 330´s of Novair (370Y config with underfloor lavoratories), think one of those is already written off (up to 10m yearly lease rates & maint reserves)in their balance-sheets as they intended to sub-lease the AC for some time while it was grounded due to a lack of demand.
Do you know of any connection to tour operators as Thomas Cook and Jetair would need some long-haul uplift in case of an SLR bankruptcy. I cant believe the cookies intend to fly on their new JMC Be, market is simply a little small.

Thanks. silversurfer

[The Guvnor]

Silversurfer - I hear that five A320s are going from JMC to Thomas Cook Belgium; I suspect those will be using UK rather than Belgian flight deck crews but with Belgian cabin crew. Operations due to kick off in March - and of course they can operate within Europe on JMC's AOC.

[The Guvnor]

soddit indeed so - the word is that there will be no investments from the government (local or national). Davignon and Lippens say there is not enough money and not enough support for a healthy continuation of DAT. There is no clear businessplan - it would therefore be a miracle when DAT survives beyond tomorrow.

That said, the Belgian government does have a habit of changing the rules to suit themselves - especially where matters of national pride are concerned.

The fat lady might be on the stage, but she hasn't opened her mouth yet!

[PsychoDad]

Well, if they ever succeed in making money they'll find another way than this one:

Virgin Express has a block seat agreement with DAT on the CPH/BRU service. Fine. A mate of mine was travelling full fare business class CPH-BRU last saturday, but was denied boarding as the aircraft was full of VEX pax ! Indeed, they sent him CPH-BSL-BRU with Crossair.

How on earth they'll ever make a profit by turning their own full fare pax down, in order to cater for the competitors low fare pax is way beyond me.

[circle2land]

Virgin Express & DAT had a block seat agreement up until Friday 16th when merger talks broke down between the two sides. It seems that DAT's business plan has been rejected. More news on Tuesday 20th. Lets hope it's not another grim day in aviation, but the future does not look good for DAT unless they come up with a better business plan and secure funding from the potential investors.

[FL310]

circle2land, which month of which year do you refer to? Yhe last month having a 16th on a Friday was November...
Anyway, the grapevine has a leak and shows a money injection to DAT from the Government...via BIAC as a potential shareholder.
Watch this space!

[circle2land]

FL310
My mistake It happened Friday 14th Dec, so we've been told there will be more news on the 18th.

[The Guvnor]

Well, peeps, VG Airlines just gets more and more bizzare.

At a press conference on Friday, Freddy van Gaever said that he had no intention of putting together a business plan, saying: "businessplans are for people who not know their market and who are not sure about, believe and conviced in their own goals and targets. Setting up a businessplan costs millions of francs; wasted money."

Unfortunately for him, business plans are a definite requirement under EU law (see EEC Council Regulation 2407/92 (http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1992/en_392R2407.html) - Article 5 is the relevant one. Without a business plan, you don't get an Operating Licence. Without an operating licence, you don't fly.

Notwithstanding the minor problem of the business plan, he then says that if the government don't give him his licences by the 15th January, he's going to stage a rally in Brussels. De Standaard (http://www.standaard.be/nieuws/economie/index.asp?docType=overzicht.asp) (This is in Dutch - you'll need to scroll down until you see the article on VG Airlines, then click on it).

Getting an AOC and Operating Licence in the UK is a process that generally takes a minimum of six to nine months - especially if you want to operate large aircraft outside the EU. In addition, you need to apply for a DOT402 from the US authorities to operate there - and that's something you can only do once you have your AOC and OL in place.

The Standaard article makes incredible reading. For example, the airline's FFP will revolve around photos of his grandkids (I kid you not! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes :) - you get a pic of his eldest one, Emily, whenever you fly business class; and one of his second grand child, Michael, in Economy. Save up five of those, and you get a free ticket!

: Catering, entertainment aan boord -- met Martin De Jonghe -- satelliettelevisie en internettoegang, zelfs aan een frequent flyer- programma heeft de zakenman gedacht. ,,Het eerste vliegtuig doop ik Emily, naar mijn kleindochter. Het tweede wordt Michael, naar mijn tweede kleinkind dat mijn dochter verwacht voor volgende week. Elke passagier krijgt bij een vlucht een foto, van Emily in business, van Michael in economy. Wie vijf fotootjes voorlegt, vliegt eenmaal gratis.

He also labours under the misapprehension that you can buy existing AOCs from companies that have gone bust. First, he wanted Sabena's - now he's reported to want CityBird's. CTB's has been formally revoked as the company is in liquidation; and I believe that SN's has as well. In any case, the only way that he could get his hands on either of them - assuming they are still 'live' - is to buy the companies that hold them. That, in turn, means making a settlement with all the creditors.

However, our Freddy doesn't let a small matter like that faze him:

Mijn vlieglicentie (AOC) wil ik voor 15 januari, alle wettelijke vereisten van mijn kant zullen volgende week rond zijn. Indien dat niet kan, organiseer ik een mars in Brussel. De enkele tientallen piloten en de ruim honderd cabinepersoneelsleden die ik aanwerf, zullen zeker meedoen.

It even seems now that Novair are denying that there is any lease agreement between the companies - saying that the VG team consisting of Freddy van Gaever and former SN chief pilot Raymond Nicolai - merely "looked at the aircraft" and that in any case they only have one aircraft surplus to requirements; not two.

Van Gaever says that he's be starting to accept reservations from the 11th January through a call centre in Flanders; and that he will be performing a series of charters in February. However, he has not put in place any agreements for a CRS/GDS system; nor does he have membership of BSP to allow him to sell through the travel trade.

This coming week, he intends to put in place codeshares with VLM (the airline he founded) and VEX to feed his new operation.

So - no aircraft, no AOC, no OL, no DOT402, no ICH/BSP membership - and no business plan!! Does this clown really expect us to believe that he's serious about this? :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[maxalt]

Freddy always liked to wing it.
Maybe he knows something you don't Guv.
Now that'd be a turn up for the books, wouldn't it. :cool:

[The Guvnor]

maxalt - Freddy may like to "wing it" as you say, but the rules still apply. Those include obtaining an AOC and an OL - which in turn includes producing a business plan - before you can apply for a DOT402. All that is a 12 month process. For him to say that he wants it within a month is laughable - and all the more so if he refuses to play by the rules! :rolleyes:

Latest installment on the DAT saga from ATWOnline:

New DAT's funding unraveling
Dateline: Monday December 17, 2001

New DAT's future is looking increasingly bleak after a critical piece of its jigsaw-style financing plan fell through late last week.

Air Holding, the investor group led by Etienne Davignon and Maurice Lippens, could raise only eur177 million ($157.5 million), slightly more than half of the planned eur295 million. Sabena Interservices Center withdrew its restructuring plan at a court hearing in Brussels Thursday--a new hearing is slated for tomorrow--and therefore did not commit the eur100 million ($89 million) foreseen for DAT. The Flemish government has remained firm in its refusal to invest in the carrier.

New DAT was scheduled for launch Dec. 19. It needs at least eur415 million to fly to 35 European, seven African and two US destinations. To survive a "worst case scenario" and still be profitable by 2006 it needs eur505 million, Arthur D. Little said last week (ATWOnline, Dec. 12).

[Avman]

Hey Guv, calling Freddy a clown is a bit rich coming from you! ;) :D

[The Guvnor]

The latest on 'New Sabena' from a poster on Airliners.net who apparently works for the Belgian Central Bank...

Seems that after the technical problems Davignon ran into on December 13th with SIC (which managed to buy some extra time only thanks to a clever technical intervention of its lawyers and the presiding judge), this belgian nobleman and head of the Air Holding NV/SA has not sat still; in fact it seems he has even made a big step forward yesterday evening!
After very difficult negociations with the SIC creditors over the weekend, Lippens and Davignon have finally managed to secure a dubble majority (i.e. half of the SIC creditors representing half of the credits) as required under Belgian law for a recovery plan for SIC!

This updated plan does no longer call for a real cash investment of 100 million euro from SIC in dat+ (on request of the creditors) but rather clears dat of a similar amount of depts towards SIC.

In both cases the result is the same for dat and the SIC creditors (which will lose 100 million euro), but for the SIC creditors it means they can now book this 100 million euro as money lost (i.e. deductable from their taxes in their countries of origin).
With the new recovery plan accepted by the required dubble majority of creditors, it is highly unlikely that SIC will not be granted a permanent (18 month) protection from other creditors on December 18th by Mrs. Spiritus. As you know, the survival of SIC is a cornerstone in the plans of Davignon-Lippens to permit the expansion of dat into dat+.

Also, I can assure you (ex officio) that over the past week the Flemish government has been put under very high pressure to reconsider its decission not to invest in dat+. Naturally, because they do not want to give the impression they have made a U-turn after their initial refusal based on an (questionable) advice of the Flemish auditor of finances, they have now engaged an 'independent' auditor to give them a new (more positive) advice with which they will justify their investment.

Finally, the full Lippens-Davignon plan has unoffically been presented to the EU commission during the summit in Laken last weekend and I can confirm that it has been verbally discussed with and aproved by a senior EU advisor to Mrs. De Palacio! I must say that he didn’t like the idea too much of BIAC and Belgocontrol (2 state controlled holdings) being part of the private investors, but he said he would not oppose to it as the overall public presence will not exceed 50%.

He also verbally agreed to a new long term state loan to pay back the short term bridging loan, because the bridging loan clearly only permitted to start a new company and the new loan is a purely economical issue, although the fact that the EU commission (alarmed by the very negative public opinion in several EU member states including Belgium after the way in which they helped old Sabena going under) does not want to be seen as guilty of the premature dead of the new Belgian national carrier and the subsequent unemployment of yet another additional 3,000 to 6,000 people.

Finally, some more semi-offical news:
Seems the Newco (temporarily called dat+)will be built around 2 separate entities:
One for European operations, based on the current dat, and one for intercontinental operations. The advantage of this is that EU competition rules will not apply so stricly to intercontinental flights as the free common market philosophy is less introduced there, so limited and indirect government support could be tolerated in the future too. (cfr. Air France and Air Lib and the French overseas territories.)

The new name of dat would be:
Sabena Europe,
whereas the name of the intercontinental part of the Newco is going to be:
New Sabena
Logo and livery would most certainly be preserved too

[AEROVISION]

Heard today that former owners and management of ex City Bird,(Hasson/Gutelman) are going to invest in new DAT and will have seat on the board.
After all these battles with the Sabena bunch they'r now in the other camp. More job prospectives for ex City Bird pilots then ??

Regards
AV

[Pointer]

well, being onboard one of his "brain" child's I think van Geaver is a bit on the rough side of buisness but as you said guvnor he stood on the craddle of more than one airline that is/are/was still in existence so some credits are due, how many have you founded? Its easy being the Net's conscience but give credit were due. ;)

And as you probably know since you are so well informed...(where do you get the time?) Anything and i mean anything is possible in belgium :rolleyes:

[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: Pointer ]

[The Guvnor]

OK, standby for the next exciting installment in the ongoing saga of SIC/DAT!! :D :D

And the latest news is ....!

... well, not a lot, really. :rolleyes: The Commercial Court has decided to continue things until the 26th, by when the 'Dream Team' should have got their finance in place. VEX, who were mooted as a suitor/saviour, want nothing to do with them.

Or, given all the arm twisting going on in Belgium, they will simply allow it to lurch on with an uncertain future.

As they say, in Belgium ... anything is possible! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[sabenapilot]

Getting frustrated by the fact that the Sabena creditors are more or less asked by the judge to take their losses and to shut up till a permanent solution has been found to restart Sabena all over again, Gunverd?

You didn't really expect a judge nominated by the PS (Walloon Socialist Party) to simply accept the bancruptcy of a state owned company and the subsequent unemployment of up to 6,000 people only for the sake of some rich foreign banks, did you?
Not after the way in which see herself prevented the lawyers of the SN creditors to ask the SIC bankruptcy on December 13th?

Maybe in primitive societies like the USA or the UK, investors' money is more important then the social welfare of their workers, but not so in the social democratic countries in Western Europe.

[Ramrise]

Ah yes,

Belgium is sooo refined. And, it is a model for all western societies. Especially the way they ran their airline.

C'mon t'bas. Surely you jest.

Another thing. This really isn't that funny. Alot of people have lost their jobs and I can just imagine how I would feel if I lost mine.

[VBO]

As they say: "One swallow in the sky doesn't mean the start of the summer, like one country man doesn't represent a country" :D

[circle2land]

t'bas

Just out of interest, which socially democratic Country of Western Europe do you belong to?
Oh...and is your BeCA subscription up to date?

[The Guvnor]

Sabenapilot - are you talking about the same "social democratic" country that doesn't even permit those that have been made unemployed to claim any benefits because Sabena apparently isn't even capable of sending out letters of termination to them?

And you feel that this company should receive more billions of Euros of taxpayers money - money that could be better spent on schools, hospitals, roads, etc?

Puhleeeeeeeeze! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[sabenapilot]

Or on more military investments as the NATO asked us last weekend? Sure, we could do that, but do we need it? Schools are free in Belgium and the education received is amongst the best in the world.
Same goes for our hospitals.
Anyway, If we wanted to invest more money in our schools, hospitals etc. I know a very easy way to quickly find about 2.5 billion €: leave NATO for what it is (a useless remainder from the cold war).

As to the very slow and poor way in which the ex SN employees are treated... you are 100% correct. I think it is time we go back on the streats (and to Brussels airport) and reclaim all our legal rights immediately!
It is time we make our government clear we will not tolerate them destroying our social welfare state purely for the sake of european economical growth and competition. There is plenty of money in Belgium, it is only a matter of courage to take it! Remember a country belongs to all its people, not just those who happen to be shareholder of a profitable company!

[neil armstrong]

Yes tolipanebas why not!!
Go onto the street and block the airport ,disrupt the lives of more people who have nothing to do with yall's problem.

Neil

[The Guvnor]

Latest from ATWOnline:

[quote]Sabena's financial arm gets more temporary protection
Dateline: Thursday December 20, 2001

Sabena Interservice Center, financial arm of the defunct airline, received another week of temporary protection from creditors as a Brussels court held that it did not fulfill the conditions for bankruptcy.

Although the Commercial Court of Brussels granted the protection, President Anne Spiritus-Dassesse's decision criticized "the wheeling and dealing of slots, the necessity to rely on government funds, the artificial moves through judicial accords and the unclear contacts with the European Commission."

The court will review SIC's fourth restructuring plan on Dec. 26 and decide whether to grant permanent bankruptcy protection. This week's decision followed a provisional agreement by SIC's creditors on restructuring of its debt. The deal includes rescheduling debts to Sabena Technics and Sobelair and remission of the €110 million ($99.3 million) owed to DAT. SIC loans to DAT would be converted into shares in the successor airline and DAT's leasing contracts would be renegotiated.

The agreement corroborates an earlier SIC decision not to invest €100 million in DAT, posing a problem for the airline's capitalization requirements. The renewed DAT needs a minimum of €300 million in capital and €450 million to operate some long-haul routes, according to Arthur D. Little's business plan (ATWOnline, Dec. 12).

Air Holding, which is trying to establish the new DAT, has €175 million in funds committed, including money from Victor Hasson, former chairman of bankrupt Belgian charter airline City Bird, and former City Bird CEO Georges Gutelman. Last week the Flanders government confirmed that it won't invest in the new airline. <hr></blockquote>

[renegator]

What does this mean for the future of Sobelair? I hear they are still struggling to find new owners. Will they have enough time to do so and be able to survive on a stand-alone basis flying for TUI Belgium only?

Thanks. silversurfer

[The Guvnor]

I hear that VEX may be investing €25m in DAT. As they don't appear to have €25m spare, if true the only explanation I can come up with is that they have agreed to convert the claims they had against SN/DAT into equity.

Of course, this doesn't add a centime to DAT's bank account - though it does mean they don't have to set aside money for contingent liabilities - so their funding hasn't really been advanced.

[sabenapilot]

Guv-nerd,
I really thought at least YOU would know more about this kind of business deals...

The money is not coming from VEX (Belgium) itself (which is highly unprofitable since the bankruptcy of SN), but will come straight from the UK via a financial branch of the Virgin Group. It will be directly invested in dat's future mother company Air Holding NV/SA, without first passing via VEX.

In fact, the aim seems to be to get rid of the name Virgin Express and its low fares product all together by merging it with dat under the name of Sabena Europe!
That way the shareholders of Air Holding will in fact have successfully created a single, medium-sized, stock-exchange listed airline with a quasi monopoly in Brussels!
Also, it would immediately provide New Sabena Sabena with a significant intercontinental partner (Virgin Atlantic) for their much wanted flights to the USA and Asia (via LHR where dat has 9 daily rotations), whereas New Sabena would more easily get the cash (an emission of extra shares) and passengers (Virgin Atlantic) to relaunch the most interesting part of its African network.

To bad you couldn't work out this kind of basic business analysis yourself...

[The Guvnor]

Sabenapilot - the point of my post, which obviously sailed right over your head; as indeed so many things do <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> - is that Virgin Group simply does not have €25m spare to invest in anything other than attempting to keep themselves afloat.

And, considering that the low fare-no frills business model is the only one that is consistently profitable; why would they want to abandon that in favour of a quasi-state owned carrier that is likely to emulate its parent? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[sabenapilot]

Well If they Virgin doesn't have the money, than explain me how they have managed to pay it already to the AIRHOLDING yesterday evening?
(without sailing over my head as you so poetically say...)

[The Guvnor]

Is that so, Sabenapilot? And what, exactly, are your sources for this piece of very interesting news? I've just spent the last 30 minutes chatting to a mate at VEX who has been involved with the negotiations who described it as "wishful thinking" on the part of Lippens & Co who must eliminate all of their competition in order to look even vaguely viable. Even today's Financieel Economische Tijd confirms that it's unconfirmed! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[The Guvnor]

Belgian TV station VRT has said that DAT has been bought by Air Holdings NV for €1.

[airDD]

rumours about Branson investing in DAT persist..

I guess Branson is buying himself a code-share agreement with DAT

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: airDD ]</p>

[FL310]

And the Financial Times reports about a refusal of the Davignon offer by the curators...
Anyway, hope this turns out to keep more pilots off the market, all the contracted pilots at DAT received their notice for the end of the year...

forgot the link if someone is interested...
<a href="http://totalsearch.ft.com/totalsearch/expand.jsp?searchCat=9&offset=0&query=DAT&resultsToShow=20" target="_blank">http://totalsearch.ft.com/totalsearch/expand.jsp?searchCat=9&offset=0&query=DAT&resultsToShow=20</A>

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: FL310 ]</p>

[The Guvnor]

From today's Sunday Times...

[quote]A Belgian Xmas for Branson

DOMINIC O’CONNELL

SIR RICHARD BRANSON has been given an early Christmas present: a deal that will make Virgin Express, his low-cost carrier, part of Belgium’s new national airline.

The country has been without a flag carrier since the collapse of Sabena last month.

On Friday a group of Belgian investors paid the company’s receivers a symbolic one euro for Delta Air Transport, a Sabena subsidiary, after two days of frantic negotiations.

It is understood that the investors, who have raised 180m euros, will merge Delta with Virgin Express. The name of the merged company has yet to be decided.

The new airline will take over Virgin Express’s listings in Brussels and on Nasdaq.

Branson owns 51% of Virgin Express. It is not known what holding he will have in the merged company.

Virgin Express was set up in 1996 when Branson bought EuroBelgian Airlines and revamped it as a no-frills operation. It has had a chequered history — an operation in Shannon, Ireland was forced to close in the face of mounting losses — but has fared better since Sabena’s demise.

The Belgian investor group is headed by Etienne Davignon and Maurice Lippens, two of the country’s most respected business figures. They have recruited Robert Kuijpers, former chief executive of the freight carrier DHL Express, to be the chief executive of the merged venture.

The new airline is expected to be smaller than Sabena but will run services to America and Africa as well as within Europe.

Sabena, which had for years struggled with heavy debts, high operating costs and government interference, was one of the first airline casualties of the September 11 terrorist attacks on America. The collapse of its shareholder Swissair, and its failure to inject promised funds, was the final straw.
<hr></blockquote>

[The Guvnor]

Off, on, off, on - more times than a whore's drawers! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

From today's ATWOnline

[quote]Virgin Express denied rumors that it plans to invest €24.9 million ($22.4 million) in New DAT. The parties are talking, though, about reviving a three-week codeshare agreement that expired Dec. 13 after DAT refused to sign an extension, a Virgin Express spokesperson said. Meanwhile, it became increasingly likely that former Sabena President and CEO Christophe Mueller will leave the airline after he was excluded from the DAT-Virgin Express talks.<hr></blockquote>