Landing from the RHS

[Flock1]

Hello all,

After reading the thread about the legalities of allowing a non-pilot passenger to take controls of a light aircraft, I thought that I would ask about a query of my own.

I hold a newly-minted PPL, and I often fly with another new PPL'er, and we have good fun. One of us in PIC, whilst the other does the radio/nav, and on the way back, we swap. We enjoy flying together, because being new, we can look out for each other and help get past our post PPL blues.

But after one flight, we discussed what it would be like landing from the RHS. We had seen instructors do it numerous times in our training, but with the altered perspective, and the added problem of holding the yoke with the other hand during the critical flare stage, we wondered what it would be like.

After some discussion, we agreed that on our next flight together, we would each take a turn at landing form the RHS, but that whoever was in the LHs would be ready to take over should the RHS pilot not feel at all safe or sure with the way that things were going.

Our reasoning for doing this, was raised by the question of - what would we do if we were flying together and the person in the LHS suddenly collapsed? We decided to find out, even though the chances of this happening were minimal, and indeed, we were both in our early thirties.

I was first up. My friend in the LHS was poised at the ready, as I made my descent. I found the whole thing a pulse-raising experience, and as I neared the threshold, I was concentrating more than I had since my first solo. Everything was so different. It seemed strange to have my hands 'swapped over'. At timely interveals, my pal would ask if I was okay, and I said yes. I flared, and managed to make a perfectly safe landing, but I didn't enjoy it at all. I had no desire to repeat the performance, but I had at least proved to myself that I could do it from the other side.

My pal went next, and at our base airport, he too made a safe landing from the other side. But he was sweating as we taxied in. Neither of us would want to do this again.

So did we break the law? Remember, we are both licenced pilots, and safety (in my opinion) was never compromised.

Flock1

[dmjw01]

Interesting post - I'd always wondered what it would be like too.

IMHO you certainly weren't breaking the law because there's nothing to say that the PIC has to be sitting in the left-hand seat (regardless of whether they're an FI).

This is one of those situations where it's a very good idea to explicitly discuss between you who is in command before you get airborne - as distinct from who is handling the controls.

[excrab]

Unless there is anything in the aircraft flight manual to say otherwise then you wouldn't be breaking the law.

However, if you are flying a club aircraft there may well be a requirement in the pilots order book or equivalent document that only instructors or pilots approved by the club fly from the right hand seat, in which case you could have a problem with the insurance company if anything went wrong.

[Kingy]

Of course you have not broken any rules. The aircraft does have dual controls after all...!?

Surely the principal is the same as the FO doing the landing on a commercial flight.

Good to get some practice for flying 'Real' aircraft too.:ok:

(ducks and runs)

Kingy

[Tinstaafl]

Some fairly common problems for L seat pilots first trying the R seat:

* the perspective is all 'wrong'. Aligning the aircraft with the rwy. gives a different picture. The first few times usually result in the a/c not quite being straight with the rwy. when the wheels touch. Bet you both tended to land on the RH side of the runway centerline...

* Not quite wings level flight. Again the sight picture is lopsided in a mirror image to the 'normal' seat view. You get used to the 'normal' lopsidedness of the cowling/panel/coaming when the wings are level. Jump into the other seat & now you have to deliberately reverse something you've spent many hours establishing.

* Altered muscle use ie you become habituated to using one hand to push/pull on the throttle & the other to do the equivalent on the column/stick. It can - but doesn't necessarily - lead to a situation where the habituated muscle usage is the incorrect one for the circumstance. Think of the a/c low on final. The normal response would be to add power (push with the R hand & pull with the left. Think what effect that will have if you're in the RH seat... :ooh:

Or a bounce that needs a bit of power to cushion the landing. Same thing about the push/pull reversal.

The reversed control resistance/feedback can be a bit off putting as well. You have to relearn how much pressure is appropriate using your other hand.

* Slow to react to events that you normally do a lot faster eg emergency actions. Again, you tend to memorise the spatial relationship of all the switches, how to move your head/eyes/body to see & select the relevent things. In the other seat that tends to fall apart & it becomes a bit like the first time you did those things from the LH seat, having to hunt around to find where the things you want are... Knobs & buttons & switches won't fall easily to hand. Nor will finding where to look for information, which leads to...

* ...More difficult to read the instruments: A lot more parallax error that needs compensation from the pilot. Makes flying accurately more difficult at first.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

And while we are discussing this we may as well examine flying other types where we sit in a different position and use different controls.

Some simple examples.

Piper Cub... sitting in the center with feft hand on throttle and right hand on stick.

Airbus ...or many other types with a side controller.

Helicopters.... where you really do have different controls and also normally fly from right seat.

Just a few examples of different control set ups.

The easy answer is it is no big deal learning to fly any of them... a lot of the problem is worrying to much about different controls and the use there of. Once you start to fly any different machine it really isn't all that difficult.

Chuck E.

[LowNSlow]

The first time I did it I was a low houred PPL like yourself but with about 20 hours, including my IMC, on the particular aircraft I was flying. I was flying with a chap who wanted to video the approach to show his pals back home.

Approach was fine although I did exhibt the traits mentioned by tinstaafl above. The worst bit was the actual flare, I can still recall not feeling fully in control as we flopped onto the ground with a thump. Safe enough I suppose but I wasn't happy with it. As you mentioned, a very sweaty taxi in, followed by a few ales.

[gasax]

Three of us presently share an aircraft and often there are at least 2 of us onboard if we're going any distance. Flying leg and leg about is fine, but its surprising how often it 'helps' that either of us can fly and/or land the aircraft.#

Of the 3 of us, I can fly from the right without any issues - different types in the past gave me a huge head start. One of my pals can do it - but is not very comfortable at it. The other - it's a life or death issue for him to fly from the right....

Do n't know why - I suspect some people learn how to land and can only use those movements with those limbs in that situation.

End result - I sit on the right most of the time!

And no the POH says nothing about the where the PIC sits.

[S-Works]

I fly from the right seat frequently both in SEP and MEP aircraft. I have done many instrument approaches from the RH seat after we have left on a trip the weather has closed in requireing a let down.

I allow others to fly my own aircraft from the LH seat and we share P1 time when I am P1 and in the RH seat there is no reason to hand the controls over to the LH seat just to land!

I also do the checkouts for our syndicate aircraft from the right hand seat.

You need to practice it a few time to get used to the aspect but there is no problem. I fly many different aircraft with different throttle stick/yoke combinations and they just require you to aclimatise.

My wife did a safety pilot course where you sit in the right seat and thought it was just as weird when she decided to carry onto the PPL and moved to the left seat but she had no problems.

As with anything in flying practice!

[FlyingForFun]

I wonder whether instructors would be happy to give instruction in this - an hour or so of circuits, with the instructor in the left-hand seat and you in the right-hand seat?

I've never landed from the right-hand seat, but I have flown tandem aircraft where I'm sat in the centre, and I've flown aircraft with the throttle on both the left and the right, and never had any problems switching between them. But I know other pilots who do have problems with this switch. I guess we're all different.

As for legalities, I agree with everyone else who says it's not illegal. Solo from the right seat, however, is different. You must be able to reach all of the controls, which may rule out solo flight from the right seat in some aircraft, such as PA28. But this isn't an issue as long as someone is sat in the left seat.

FFF
----------------

[maggioneato]

I flew a circuit detail with an Instructor which he was quite happy to do, as I was going to fly safety pilot on a regular basis with a pilot with a restricted medical. Happily I never had to do the right seat landing for real.

[pondlife]

Actually, any PA28 instructor should be able to testify that it's quite possible to reach the fuel tap from the right seat. It can be either a bonus or an embarassment fumbling around the "passenger's" legs, but it's quite possible with a bit of a stretch.
We wouldn't be able to fly lessons with anyone that we couldn't trust to operate the tap themselves otherwise.

[Fuji Abound]

Many good clubs and training organisations will provide a "right seat checkout". As others have said it is not a new rating and there is nothing to stop you flying right seat anyway.

However a checkout like this should include a variety of landings, some PFLs and general handling at the end of which you will be hopefully nearly as happy in the right as the left seat. If that is what you want it is not a bad idea to have this type of checkout if the object of the exercise is to be able to completely take over from the left seat passenger in any phase of the flight.

For many types the asi is in the "wrong" place from the right seat and aside form the other issues mentioned getting use to keeping a eye on the speed during the approach is vital. Flying on instruments from the right seat again because of the usual cockpit layout is also a new challenge.

[formationfoto]

This is clearly not illegal. As others have said there is no requirement in law for right or left seat. The same applies to tandem and the front and back debate. I often fly from the 'wrong' seat.

This is fine when dual but many tandem aircraft will require you to solo from either front or back for W+B purposes.

Wouldn't advise swapping over with a friend if you don't fully brief. Two people trying to control an aircraft at the same time might just lead to one unhappy outcome.

[tonyhalsall]

Interesting thread.

Co-incidentally there is an AAIB bulletin this month (DEC) about a Europa pilot who was uncomfortable about landing his a/c from the RH seat and allowed an infinitely more experienced pilot to prang it whilst landing from the lh seat.

[Tinstaafl]

Like Chuck says, it's not difficult to get used to - it only takes a modicum of practice. Hundreds of instructor trainees do it every week all over the world.

If you instruct a lot it can even get to the stage where you're more comfortable in the RH seat than the left for a particular a/c.


FFF, I never had a problem with it in my past CFI positions. As long as the pilot demonstrated competence then they could fly from the RH seat to their hearts content.

[ACW 335]

If you thought getting used to all the perspective and maybe other hand on stick/throttle coordination problems...imagine what i was like when faced with a seat conversion on a tail wheel SLMG with airbrakes. The embarassment of rounding out/flaring with the aribrakes 'thud':mad: I have to say it was challenging! But after an hour or 2 of circuits, it all sorted itself out.

[englishal]

I wonder whether instructors would be happy to give instruction in this - an hour or so of circuits, with the instructor in the left-hand seat and you in the right-hand seat?
Of course ! Any instructor would be willing....

For much of my commercial training I sat int he RHS, it was good practice (preparation for instructor) though a little strange to start with. Landing were a little 'harder' than normal initially, then when you learn the perspective its same as normal. Its good training actually, taught me a lot ["get that center line back, don't you dare leave the centre line" are words I'll never forget :D].

I did instrument flight from the RHS, and again, a little strange to start with, but it doesn't take long to get used to it.

Cheers
EA

[Onan the Clumsy]

Certainly no illegalities, (remember the safety pilot role?) though maybe if you rent from a club, they might have rules that apply.

I really think that it's great that you'd want to try something new, but I think you're worrying about it a little more than is really necessary. You'll find it's a simple transition to make - just like driving in France really. ;)

I'd be more concerned about two pilots in an a/c knowing exactly who's PIC at all times than what the landing picture looked like.

Flying is supposed to be fun, so go and enjoy yourself.

Oh and you might consider avoiding a Bonanza with a throwover yoke for a while

[Flock1]

Glad to hear I (as well as my pal) wasn't doing anything illegal.
And yes it was fun and scary, and it certainly got the blood flowing! But I wouldn't like to do it again for a while.....

But I agree that it should perhaps be part of the PPL course - even if only for a couple of circuits, because it really is amazing how strange everything seems from the RHS.

Thanks for all of your replies

Flock1

[down&out]

I agree, it sounds like a good thing to practice - I haven't done it myself but would like to try it given the chance.

Interestingly tonyhalsall mentioned an AAIB report. Another comes to my mind of a low hour instructor who crashed due to a combination of paralax error from the RH seat and (I think) miss-reading mph for knots. Just something to be aware of if you're sit over there for the first time.

[Johnm]

The point about only working RHS with two is very important, e.g PA28R with toe brakes only on the left!

[Onan the Clumsy]

Another comes to my mind of a low hour instructor who crashed due to a combination of paralax error from the RH seat and (I think) miss-reading mph for knots. You mean he couldn't tell the airplane was too slow (or too fast). He's supposed to be a commercial pilot right?

[Flyin'Dutch']

He's supposed to be a commercial pilot right?

He actually died in the accident. There was more to that than the snippet infers.

FD