Wooden Tit Be Luvverley if..

[Ascend Charlie]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a "Teachable GPS".
On a fine-and-beaut day, you press the "Record" button on the GPS, and fly an approach / departure / route, and the GPS stores the complete profile away, heights, headings, speeds, rates of descent etc. You know that this approach is safely clear of obstacles, and you choose some final point to finish at, with 70 kt or so and a suitable height and pointing in a suitable direction.

Then on a crappy day, you tell the set to fly that approach, and it controls the autopilot and flies the full approach in IMC and puts you at your chosen final fix at your chosen speed.

Wooden eye love to have one of these, living in a valley with a few twists and turns that make a straight-line dinky-di GPS approach way too hard to design.

It shouldn't be too hard to invent a recording/learning/drive-an-autopilot GPS, what with the arrival of super-small hard drives and such. But think of the objections from CASA, Jeppesen, and anybody who makes a living from designing approaches.

Most new GPS moving maps, including my Garmin 196, leave a trail of breadcrumbs to show where you have been, but the trail won't record heights or ROD and the set won't drive an autopilot.

Any opinions?:8

(And waiting for the rest of the "wooden" jokes...)

[RDRickster]

Not a bad idea, but let's talk about reliability... which is absolutely paramount in an IMC situation. NASA is the defacto Guru of reliability with respect to technology. To wit, many folks believe that NASA uses the lastest and greatest technological advances. However, nothing is further from the truth.

For example, some of the "newest" satellites we have in orbit (launched last year) are using 386 and 486 processors! Today, we have 3.x Ghz processors, and NASA is only using a 486 processor? My PDA has a 406 Mhz processor with 128 MB RAM (at least 16 times as powerful - multipliers are used with 10 to the second power and go exponentionally with processors)!!!

Why?

Reliability and proven incorruptability (we are talking calculations - not operating system issues). Those 386/486 processors (they are actually variants of Intel's off the shelf product) are tested, retested, tested again, and then validated to operate in the environment specified. Therefore, NASA is actually decades behind the rest of us in technology.

Before I allow any computing device to fly for me, it has to have that kind of reliability, security, and automatic failover in the unlikely event of an error. That means you not only have to have error correction, but you also have to have a reliable method to monitor it. I would imagine that the FAA/JAA/CAA will have similar requirements for such a device... backup for the backup, etc.

Oh, and we haven't even talked about protection from interfering signals, etc.

Concerning the concept, I think it could be easily done. I have the Garmin 196 and you might be amazed to know that most electronic devices use VB Script or other common programming languages. It just a matter of writing the code for the desired results. That said, computer systems, even simple ones, are only as good as the data you put in them.

Put garbage in... you'll get garbage out.

As humans, we make lots of mistakes. Even with QA (Quality Assurance) and a TQMP (Total Quality Management Program) in place, you are still going to miss something. The testers are going to miss something... until a critical event happens. I don't want to be the one flying when that happens.

With time (meaning lots of money), a final product could be delivered. If you write a comprehensive Exectutive Summary, you may be able to find funding to run a Pilot Project (do it on an RC model... very inexpensive). You might be able to do a Phase I trial with $15K - $20K and then move onto the Proof of Concept level on a more serious level.

Now, let's talk about the market, demand, acceptance, and the legal issues. Didn't I recently read on PPRuNe that the U.K. will "never allow GPS" approaches? In the U.S., the FAA doesn't allow GPS approaches for IMC (yet). Let's say you have a product that works like a champ and is totally proven... where are you going to sell it?

(Not gonna do it... wooden't be prudent)

[Shawn Coyle]

RDRickster:
Not sure where you've been over the last several years, but IFR GPS approaches are certainly alive and well and living in Canada and the USA.
In fact, with some lateral thinking FAA people's approval, Alaska Airlines is doing transitions to ILS approaches in the fjords of Alaska using GPS with literally only hundreds of yards clearance between hard rock and soft aluminum (or is it aluminium) wingtips.

The idea of a 'stored approach' is an intriguing one - but as an ex-certification agency test pilot, let me assure you that the quality control process that would be needed for such an approach to be approved would be horrendous. Not insurmountable, but pretty steep.
It's not just the instrument portion that is the problem - it's the lighting needed to transition to ground reference on breakout at night, for example. It's the obstacle clearances that need to be assured in all cases - what if the GPS coverage isn't that great the day you really need it? And so on.
But a neat idea.

[RDRickster]

Are GPS approaches approved for ILS? I thought not, but I should get out of my cave more often. What if you combined the tracking GPS with ground radar to validate... we are getting expensive here, but since it is a "what if" dicussion why not?

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

But I bet a 76B wooden eat breadcrumbs! That's why.

"The Apollo 11 lunar lander.

Basic facts:
•First manned lunar landing "July 20 1969"
•A small 2 person spacecraft descended to the lunar surface, while mothership stayed in lunar orbit
•Both spacecraft equipped with a computer for navigation and guidance: 100 kHz 16bit CPU, 38 K RAM & core memory, programmed in assembly language, priority based event driven OS of 2 K.
•During the landing phase, the role of the lunar lander computer was to measure altitude, and control the overal attitude of the spacecraft
• In the middle of descent, with only minutes to go before landing, the computer started to display “1202 alarm”
• This alarm kept repeating itself every 10 seconds
• As the minimum altitude for aborting was approaching, the software engineers had to decide whether the alarm was fatal or not
• The advice was to ignore the alarm, and the landing also proceeded successfully. The engineers knew “1202 alarm” meant overflow of some event buffer, not clear which one
• However, because of the fixed priorities used, judgement was that whatever events and computations being lost, they would be the least important ones
• The decision to ignore the alarms was taken on basis of that “gut feeling”, rather than knowledge
• Analysis and simulations during the 24h moon stay found the exact alarm cause "the erroneous switch"
• "The engineer in charge of the decision to proceed was later awarded the president’s medal together with the astronauts!"

Fill your boots - should be a piece of proverbial! Wooden want to be the one with the "gut feeling" while your the one in the soup doing the "granite feeling".

RDR - your PDA has what?

[RDRickster]

So, after reading this, your common $8 pocket calculator has about 3 times the memory and at least 10 times the processing power of the Lunar mission! Ya, my PDA has a 406 Mhz ARM processor, 128 MB add-on RAM, 64 MB internal RAM, 48 MB internal ROM, integrated 802.11 wireless w/ 128-bit hexadecimal encryption (used at work), a Bluetooth wireless connection to my GSM phone that provides 115 Kbps broadband in the Baltimore-Washington area (very cool), and a few other bells and whistles... including Biometric fingerprint identification and profile security. Then, again... this is what I do for a paycheck. I wish I could combine the two worlds (computers & flying).

[pa42]

Wow, RDR, If Arnold can be guv'nor of CA, maybe your PDA could be the next president!

No, no ILS-flying with GPS. Yet. But your impression that GPS wasn't allowed for IMC is natural. It springs from the fact that it's only been about 10 years since the first GPS overlay for a conventional IFR approach, and back then you were required to have operational conventional radios for the underlying conventional approach in case the GPS got weird.

Now, of course, VOR and NDB approaches are being phased out all over the place--GPS system is already up there and maintained, humongous but invisible expense, whereas VOR & NDB systems require (gasp!) Maintenance, by (gasp!) Hired Employees, plus Flight Testing, and are thus hideously expensive (or so reasons our Uncle Sam).

ILS replacements using GPS are next, but not yet available to the public. As Shawn points out, that soft allyuminniunm is quite vulnerable. (Even the spelling.)

Now as to a GPS which records your home-brew approach . . . it's not legal yet, but surely within the next 10 years the gummint will find ways to analyse the approach parameters downloaded from your GPS-approach-generator-add-on and emailed in to their computer and issue approval untouched by human hand.

And today? Well, folks aren't talking about it much, but it's always (?) been legal to fly in IMC outside of controlled airspace without a clearance nor official navigation guidance nor even talking to ATC. Provided you have the instrumentation to stay dirty-side-down and out of controlled airspace.

So I have no doubt there are instrument-rated pilots with IFR-legal airplanes and GPS's zipping along in solid cloud beneath or beyond controlled airspace all over the wild, wild West. Separation? What's that?

That said, I have to testify that in summer when I load up the Cessnas and fly tourists around MtMcKinley (Denali Nat'l Park, AK), I find that on the low-IFR days (60-70% of summer) there are a dismaying number of airPlanes landing at airports either side of Windy Pass through the Alaska Range having flown through the a) completely-obscured canyon b) navigating with handheld uncertified GPS's, c) in airplanes without gyros except TC, and d) apparently without instrument ratings. Safety? What's that?

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

PA Man-

Got beans?

Got ears?

[RDRickster]

AOPA demos ADS-B for Civil Air Patrol

Dec. 9 — Two high-ranking officials from the Civil Air Patrol's national headquarters visited AOPA recently, to see for themselves the advantages of combining a multipurpose datalink with a multifunction cockpit display.

AOPA Senior Director of Advanced Technology Randy Kenagy took CAP Executive Director Col. Al Allenback (USAF-Ret.) and Director of Operations Lt. Col. John Salvador (USAF-Ret.) for a demonstration flight in an aircraft equipped for Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast, or ADS-B.

ADS-B technology transmits an aircraft's GPS-derived position, altitude, airspeed, and projected track via datalink to other aircraft similarly equipped and to ground stations. The datalink capabilities also allow ground stations to uplink information about transponder-equipped non-ADS-B aircraft using the FAA's Traffic Information System-Broadcast (TIS-B) system, as well as both textual and graphical weather data via the Flight Information System-Broadcast (FIS-B) system.

"ADS-B appears to be a cost-effective convergence of technologies that greatly enhances safety and situational awareness for the pilot," said Col. Allenback. "Being able to 'see' traffic, terrain, and thunderstorms together makes ADS-B a remarkable tool that will improve general aviation safety."

"Many of the Civil Air Patrol's missions are flown low and slow," said Kenagy. "As CAP considers its options for the future, ADS-B is one that can significantly improve situational awareness and mission safety.

"Through its Cadet program and flight training available to its adult members, CAP introduces teens and young adults to general aviation and its wide variety of emerging avionics technologies. AOPA was privileged to demonstrate the benefits of ADS-B to such an important organization within the aviation community."

The Civil Air Patrol is the civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force. CAP conducts 85% of the aerial search-and-rescue missions flown in the United States, using a fleet of some 500 aircraft nationwide. Approximately 100 of those aircraft are in the eastern United States, where they could take advantage of the FAA's planned limited roll-out of ADS-B over the next couple of years.

ADS-B has been tested extensively as part of the FAA's Capstone project in Alaska and proven its benefits in a state where terrain and distances limit air traffic control radar coverage. The FAA is now moving from a proof-of-concept demonstration to statewide implementation.

[Thomas coupling]

406 Mhz ARM processor, 128 MB add-on RAM, 64 MB internal RAM, 48 MB internal ROM, integrated 802.11 wireless w/ 128-bit hexadecimal encryption (used at work), a Bluetooth wireless connection to my GSM phone that provides 115 Kbps broadband

Crikey RDR, and I thought you were the Matrix architect:

2600Mhz / 512Mb internal RAM, optical keboard and mouse, 6 port USB with 2 x auxilliary 64Mb memory sticks. 54 speed CD/DVD burner/128Mb graphics card and flat screen wall mountable monitor. 1Mb upstream broadband.

This was specified by my 14 yr old son and tailor made to match, all for $750 US!!!!

Your slipping ........................

:uhoh:

[Spaced]

Not to contradict what RD said, but the main reason for the low processing power in modern space craft has more to do with effects of radiation and cosmic rays on semi conductors.
For give me its a couple of years since study, but I beleive that the most powerful processor to fly was a 286, on the voyager space craft.
I cant remember the exact details now, but it runs along the lines of when a semi conductor is hit by radiation, some passes through, and some exictes the chip. If enough energy is stored in the chip the current will build, and short out the chip.
When high power chips are used, say a 486 or higher, the radiation tolerance is reduced, due to the tigher matrix of the chip. Hence the lower power chips in space applications.
Although if the radiation burst is stong enough it will destroy even hardened chips, which can happen even in low Earth orbit, during severe solar storms.

[RDRickster]

Uh... those previous specs were of my hand held PDA (Personal Digital Assistant)... about 5" x 3" x 1" in size! The computers I work with have four (4) processors, multiple hard disks over a Redundant Arrary of Independant Disks (RAID) - most using a stripe set with parity or RAID Level 5, and most have in excess of 4096 MB (4 GB) of RAM. :ok:

Spaced, thanks for the background. I didn't get into the technical aspects of it, but simply referred to the "environment in which they operate." Good stuff.

[moosp]

The technology for recordable approaches certainly exists, I use it frequently in the plank wing simulator. Fly the approach with "Record" selected, then after the landing hit "Repeat" and the thing will fly it all over again. And this is '80's technology.

"ALL" you need to do is have three GPS's doing the same thing to get your fail-passive integrity and tie it into a flight director or autopilot system.

But in my R22 the mass of three handheld GPS's will take it over MTOW so its back to the drawing board...

[Ascend Charlie]

Well, now that you mention it, we used to fly the Window Frames In The Sky approaches on a pre-windows 286 back in the stone ages. I believe that this approach is available on the wooden-you- like- to- afford- it heads-up display in the latest Gulfstreams, but why aren't they available on the cheapy GPS units after all these years??

Ah it wooden work, you say.

Wooden tw@t? Wooden work? All the technology is available, and surely Mr Gates would allow some people to steel his idea so people tin do it? Wooden E?

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

Mr Gates? You should be thankful that nothing made by Microsloth actually flies! Show me one thing Microsoft ever invented? Everything was either bought or ripped off. And no your boss did not invent television either. Don't believe the hype!

Unix is like living in a tee pee. No Windows, No Gates, Apache in house!

[Ascend Charlie]

Come on, Giovanni, that's a packer lies! He didn't invent it, he just made people want to watch it. But I suppose we shouldn't bicker.

John 109, eh? Good tag. Guten tag.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Fastest space borne processor I know of is a 386 that was installed during the Hubble Space telescope repair/upgrade mission. That said the Shuttle folks always seemed to have a plethora of black IBM Thinkpads floating around as they work. So it would seem we have to make the distinction as to whether we're talking about a flight and systems controlling CPU.

But enough of this carefree banter and back to the thread - some time spent on a couple of glider sites might give some options. Search on GPS and event/data loggers - hard core glider types record everything in 3d through the standard interface which is two way. The sport also attracts a preternaturally high proportion of quality software and systems folks. Well worth a look with all the obvious provisos - don't try this at home, don't use anything sharp without an adult nearby and without approach lighting some objects may be closer than they seem:suspect: :suspect: :suspect:

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[helmet fire]

RDR - it is nearly 10 years that a certified IFR GPS approach has been in use in Australia!

AC - seems like a perfectly reasonable request to me. Shouldnt matter if the approach is curved or not, and the sooner it becomes a reality, the better.

[MightyGem]

Charlie, would you really want to trust your GPS to bring you down safely into your twisty valley? You're a braver man than me. But then again most people are.

Wasn't there a helo that came to grief in Ireland a few years back trying to do this?

[Thomas coupling]

Mighty - yes it was a private S76 with the ex chief pilot GMP driving and being checked out by a very experienced (and well liked) FW instructor doing an IFR check on him. They were doing a GPS let down to a private hotel:eek:
Flew straight into a hill side....................................................

[The Nr Fairy]

MG / TC:

Accident report available for the S76 accident on the Irish AAIU web site (http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=3619&lang=ENG&loc=1280).

And although it's f/w, someone elses' home-grown GPS approach which came to grief is here (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_507918.hcsp).