The most significant British Light Aircraft?

[RileyDove]

Quite an emotive topic to some - which one aircraft really epitomises British light aviation and is either in preservation
or should be earmarked for it?

[reynoldsno1]

has to be the Tiger Moth, methinks

[RileyDove]

Do want to be specific? Tiger Moth G-ACDC for example? Very little
of it's original but it has tremendous spirit!

[Dop]

Actually, I'd have to go with that. It's just the look of the Tiger Moth, it's a classic.

Love to have a go in one some time, if only to say that I had!

[Aerohack]

Numerically and emotionally there's a very strong case for the Tiger, but it was primarily a military aircraft that fell into common civilian use post-war because they were plentiful and cheap. I'd have to vote for the D.H.60 Moth, Geoffrey de Havilland's 'Aeroplane for All' (though it was never truly that for private flying and aircraft ownership never were and never will be cheap), the first truly practical British light aeroplane, happily well represented in several variants on the vintage scene. Having said that, I reserve the right to make further representations when I've had more time to think about it! Something Miles has to be up there, I feel, as Hairyplane will no doubt point out.

[RileyDove]

Interesting - DeHavilland were very clever in putting the emphasis on the D.H Moth being affordable. In reality I believe relatively few were ever towed from their suburban garage to the local airfield for a quick 'flit' at the weekend. The notion of cheap flying was certainly attractive but no more attainable then or now.
The Tiger Moth might well be the one . Certainly not the best of the machines produced pre or postwar - it was however 'dumped' on the market in vast numbers and it truely
got people into the air in large numbers.
Miles and Percival competed but their efforts always seemed to improve on what DeHavilland had produced but not better it.
Maybe then as now some pilots wanted a simple uncomplicated machine which had no need to go airways or even cross the channel. The Moth in it's purest form was probably it.
The likes of the Comet Racer and Mew Gull were inspiring but I think they had relatively social impact on light aviation - their speed and innovations were noted and used to shape later military types.
So all in all ACDC might just have it!!!

[treadigraph]

Cor! When I saw this thread title I immediately thought "Tiger Moth", but then again Aerohack has a valid point. And what about Auster? Before the American "tin" (no disrespect, I've enjoyed lots of flying in Pipers and Cessnas) invasion, plenty of Austers and Beagles (no, not you BEagle, you Martian explorer and misser of the Christmas ad nauseum, you) on the UK reg.

As an example of "what might have been" though, the Beagle Pup. Attractive, apparently a delight to fly from what I've heard, just too darned expensive to build...

Miles... Percival... ohhhhh...

[reynoldsno1]

The Auster would be my 2nd choice....

[CoodaShooda]

I'll put in a vote for the Avro 504 :O

I'm happy to be corrected but I understand that it made flying accessable to the public before the advent of the Moths and so is a foundation stone of the industry.

[RileyDove]

Well .... the Auster certainly is the underdog but it provided a delighful mount for Ranald Porteous to delight the crowds at
Farnborough. Never blazer and hat - they are the Cinderella of the aircraft world - unloved my many but a darling in disguise!

[Woomera]

Avro 504 started Qantas in 1921.

The DH84 Dragon was the first "Royal Flight" aircraft (G-ACCC?) and provided stirling commercial service for over 25 years.

[tharg]

Percival Proctor - just because it was the first machine I which I took to the skies. Can't have been more than five or six years old. Day trip to Margate; flight along seafront from grass field in the back of beyond behind the town. Got to sit alongside driver. Leather seats; BIG dials; even bigger fan thing outside front window whizzing round. Ooooooooh! Oh yeah, and those bluddy great spats, just like a Ju-87 - at least to a nipper like me. Head in skies ever since.

(Still love Tigers though - poor sad G-AIVW in which I flew, all that remains of her is cockpit section at Robertsbridge museum. Haven't the heart to go see)

[Spot 4]

Supermarine S6:

Not military and very light:O

Have flown a Tiger @ West Raynam, loved it as much as a Chipmunk (if that can be called british?). Tugged a glider with a Beagle Terrier and would very much like to own an Auster.

Slingsby getting a military contract with the USAF should count for something (Firefly). Important point here is that we had a slice of the market and now have none, lets hear it for a failed british aviation industry:{

[henry crun]

Another vote for the Tiger Moth.

Does anyone know if D-ADIJ is still flying ? did my first solo on it.

[treadigraph]

Henry, G-ADIJ is simply listed by the CAA as de-registered... no dates I'm afraid...

[henry crun]

Thanks treadigraph. :{

[BEagle]

I vote for the de Havilland Moth. Not the DH 82a Tiger Moth, but its predecessor, the DH 60, particularly in its Gipsy Moth form. It was hugely popular in the 1930s; the Tiger Moth was a military derivative whose wing location was moved to allow for 2 pilots with parachutes to be able to abandon the aircraft. That led to the 'swept' wing and lower wing dihedral; the inverted engine improved forward visibility and reduced lubrication of the front seat pilot with hot engine oil!

Beagle (!) aircraft showed what the British light aviation industry could do if given the chance; the Pup was a very nice little aircraft, particularly in 150 hp form. It indeed led to the Bulldog T Mk 1, the last true British military elementary trainer - the RAF now uses either Fournier-based Fireflies or Das Teutor from Germany. None of which it even owns....

A good Beagle Pup would be appropriate at the Shuttleworth collection, in my view.

[Aerohack]

Auster? Ubiquitous, like the Tiger, in the 1950s, classics, no question, but if we want to nitpick, based on an American design (although C G Taylor had an English father!). The trouble with Auster was that they ever under-capitalised, and failed to modernise, sticking with tube-and-fabric when their chief designer was insisting that all-metal was the way to go. Even the Beagle Airedale was really just a revamped Auster Atlantic unconvincingly masquerading as a Cessna. But on the other hand, the tube-and-fabric Tri-Pacer spearheaded the U.S. invasion that helped kill off the British light aircraft industry, the Super Cub is still being manufactured by Cub Crafters, and each year Aviat and Maule stay in business selling aircraft that aren’t so far removed from what 21st Century Austers might look like, so who’s to say?

Beagle Pup. Well, it was the only purebred Beagle, and by common consent a fine-handling machine. But it was grossly over-engineered (I recall George Miles telling me that the Pup had 40 reamed bolts in its wings, whereas the pre-war Miles Hawk Trainer had just eight), with double curvature surfaces where neither aerodynamics nor styling demanded them, custom-made components where off-the-shelf items would have sufficed, and two widely separated manufacturing plants, all of which added to the cost of production. Beagle was trying to build and sell a hand-built sports car for the price of a basic family saloon, and commercially it just didn’t work. Had they started with Miles’s proposed M.114 — designed for simplicity of construction, low cost and with huge growth potential as a four/six-seat tourer, retractable, and light twin — instead of the financially disastrous B.206, the Beagle affair might well have ended differently. So for me the Pup remains a fine aeroplane, but not a milestone in British light aviation in the spirit of RileyDove’s original post.

If there’s no weight limit to what we regard as a ‘light aircraft’ then Mike Jenvey’s Islander has to be top of the list. And at the risk of drawing flak I’d venture the opinion that, in terms of contribution to the growth and development of commercial air transport, John Britten’s and Des Norman’s ‘Rapide replacement’ is far, far more significant than Concorde. The Islander has opened up routes, communities, countries, and made air travel available to countless hundreds of thousands of people, whereas — aside from once round the Bay and back in time for tea trips — Concorde has been accessible only to a well-heeled few, or those who don’t pay for their own air tickets.

Henry: 'ADIJ went to New Zealand in 1952. Could still be active down there.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that the Moth, whilst a stunning aircraft, was simply a creature of it's time and didn't have a huge impact upon the development of British light aviation - if it hadn't been there, something else would.

The Islander (and I speak as somebody who has worked on, and flown them) is another superb aircraft fulfilling an important role for many operators, as well as providing gainful employment for many (including me on occasion). But it's impact on British light aviation design and operations? Negligible.

The AVRO 504 I'd suggest did far more to create a pool of pilots and aviation interest, and to set the trend for future aircraft design, than any other British light aircraft - that gets my vote.


That said, the big aviation event of the 20th century in British light aviation was the Lympne air races, out of which were developed the professional skills of designers at Supermarine, de Havilland, English Electric and Hawkers - who went on to provide the tools to win WW2. It also got the whole country thinking about light aviation as a practical proposition. So, although most people have forgotten about the individual aircraft, those as a class win my vote for most significant British light aircraft.

G

[Aerohack]

Now that I've re-read RileyDove's original posting, I see that he doesn't say it has to be a civilian aircraft, so in terms of the numbers of people they've got into the air, the Avro 504K/N and Tiger Moth must be contenders.

But if de Havilland hadn't sniffily rejected Cessna's offer of licence production 40-odd years ago, we might have to include the 172...

[RileyDove]

But it would never be a DeHavilland without that curved rudder and I cannot see a 172 looking that good with one!
The machine we really needed was a Chipmunk 'attacked'by the Jackaroo designer! Wider fuselage to allow for two side by side and one in the back - metal covered controls -retractable inward retracting u/c -180hp Lycoming -baggage lockers in the wings- blown canopy and lockable tailwheel. Whilst a flight of fantasy the basic airframe did have the potential for growth
which DeHavilland left to many others !
As for the most significant British light aircraft well - the 504 certainly got people in the air but I cannot help thinking that the Tiger has probably surpassed it by now (are the any 504's still flying off beaches!) The Islander is a most un-British success story but it 'suffers' from not being overpriced,underpowered,over engineered and just downright
outdated. By being exceptional at what it does also sadly confines it to a life of relative obscurity with the public.

And as for the Concorde well ! Paid for by the many - flown by the few!

[Aerohack]

<<The machine we really needed was a Chipmunk 'attacked'by the Jackaroo designer!>>

His best effort in that direction was the Thruxton Paragon, which never flew and was somewhat more basic than what you describe, RileyDove.

[Wunper]

In terms of performance and beauty you really have to look no further than the Chilton DW1. A machine which can trace a DH influence. But with only four built the impact on British light aviation cannot be termed significant.

Check out Roy Nerou's excellent site here for the full poop on an inspired, neat design that was well ahead of it's time and which should have been built in droves.

http://www.nerou.pfanet.co.uk/home.html

Wunper

[Aerohack]

Fascinating site, Wunper, that had previously escaped me. For some reason most of the photos won't download for me, so I can't tell if my favourite Chilton shot is there — my old and sadly late friend Ranald Porteous 'taxying' 'AFSV by holding onto the tailskid as it propelled itself along. I don't see any mention of the unflown DW.2 'AFSW, the mortal remains of which are in the hands of another friend. As you say, not significant, perhaps, but such a lovely little machine. Can't think why it didn't occur to me, as I have a nice little metal model of 'AESZ sitting here on my desk.

[treadigraph]

Excellent site, thanks Wunper. Ranald and 'FSV do star:

http://www.nerou.pfanet.co.uk/images/FSV12.jpg

You could probably squeeze the Chilton into the 8th Hampshire Volunteers as well!

Is your Chilton one of those lovely LDM white metal kits? I have the Extra 230, wanted to get some more but unfortunately Mr Lawrence has given up producing them, sadly because of ill-health... fantastic kits - a great shame.

[LowNSlow]

Most significant British built aircraft in terms of getting people into the air?

1. Avro 504
2. Auster Autocrat (one of the first civilian light aircraft post WW2)
3. Tiger Moth

The gazillions of 504's post WW1 introduced aviation to an amazed public. I think the last one (radial not rotary engined) was struck off charge by the RAF in 1942(?).

The Tiger was foisted on the public cos they were giving them away post-war. Not one of the best designs on the planet but bursting full of character. The Auster must have made them seem primitive to the buying public though.

The Autocrat was so ubiquitous until the advent of the Pipers and Cessnas they were like lamp posts on the roadside. Everybody knew they were there but didn't notice them. Thousands learned to fly on them though as they were cheaper to run than the Moths.

While the Miles designs are beautiful they were neither produced in sufficient numbers nor were they sufficiently durable to be commercially successful in the post war training world. Same applies to Mr. Percivals products as they both suffered from dodgy glue bonding and internally uncoated wings which allowed terminally expensive rot to build up unnoticed. It pains me to think how many Magisters, Proctors etc were stripped of their bits and burned in the Fifties cos the re-gluing process was more than the airframes were worth :{ :{

The Austers weren't as graceful but they were durable, easy to repair and cheap to run. Then nobody seemed to notice the idiosyncracies that now make them affordable cos people are scared of them :ok:

OK, who was betting I'd put the Auster first :suspect: :suspect:

[Aerohack]

<<You could probably squeeze the Chilton into the 8th Hampshire Volunteers as well!>>

What a memory you have, Treadders. Yes, I believe you probably could, and if anyone would try it, it would've been Ranald. And thanks for that photo, which I believe I'll set up as my screensaver.

Yes, the Chilton is Brian Lawrence's LDM kit. I think I had/have all of them up to the Deperdussin Racer. Missing are the Comper Swift (built, as 'ABUS naturally, but scrapped after a hard landing incident —cats!), the Payne Knight Twister which I never had, and the Pitts S-2A with Rothmans markings which I know I had, but can no longer find. Most are still unmade, apart from the Hawk Speed Six and Cosmic Wind, and the Skyhawks RF-4 (aaaah!), which is part-assembled, and has been these many years. I wish I could get my hands on another Cosmic Wind or two. I made mine as 'Minnow', but having admired the original 'Ballerina' since I saw Milton Blair unpacking it from its shipping crate at Eastleigh in '61 I'd love to get another and make it as 'Ballerina'. You do see LDM models on ebay and on traders' stands occasionally, but rarely the most desirable ones.

[Tralfamadore]

How's about the Europa? (ducks under the table). Now I appreciate this suggestion is a bit like turning up at an MG owners rally in an MG Maestro but.........

[Aerohack]

Well, I'll confess to once having owned an MG Metro (but so did then World Land Speed Record holder Richard Noble!), and I'll admit that I toyed with the idea of nominating Europa in one of my previous posts. With 1,000 now sold it seems destined to become one of the most-produced purpose-designed British light aeroplanes (as opposed to civilianised military types like the Tiger Moth). But despite Europa's recent claim, it is not (yet) 'the best-selling Britsh lightplane in history', and — no disrespect to a fine aeroplane and people I know and greatly admire — we're talking kit sales, not fly-away aeroplanes. Definitely one to watch, though.

[Hairyplane]

I agree that the Chilton s a pretty little bird.

However, it is severely weight restricted so if you are heavier than 10 stone(?) forget it. Even then, its take off performance is 'curvature of the earth'.

Check out the Miles Hawk. Same gorgeous looks and trousered undercarriage but with the ability to lift 2 blubberbutts out of a relatively short field.

Now you maaaaaay think I am biased towards MMMmmmiles Aircraft.......

But I think the Magister and Falcon will get in the finals for the good looks prizes. Also, there were 1200ish Maggies built.

The Maggie is a lovely flying machine too, with proper brakes, tailwheel, flaps and - excellent performance, even by modern standards.

Tiger?? OK - wind in the wires silk scarf stuff and dead easy to fly (taxiing is another matter) but - well - it has to be said - its..........Well, it's not......

Actually, no - I'm not going to say it! Anything that gets you in the air and has 2 open cockpits gets my vote any time, (even though.....) oops, off again.

I want to get invited to The Moth Rally again next year! I love DH!!

HP