Eastern airways won't pay for cat 2

[KAT TOO]

Noticed that the Eastern Airways flight didn't get in again at EDI when everything else did, now OK it was Freezing Fog UP AND B.....y cold to, but when i enquired why the had to divert i was told its because they aren't CAT2 which BRAL were and Easterns boss doesn't think its worth spending the extra brass on, what with all that extra training!!!!
Makes you wonder were else they don't spend the extra brass either?

If you are after the business market, people like to know you've got half a chance of getting in. How they go on do in Fog holes like LBA is mind boggling!!!! :cool:

[Buster the Bear]

Are J41's actually Cat 2 capable?
http://www.gifs.net/animate/bear3p.gif

[HolyMoley]

Yes, they are, but BRAL (or Manx Europe) wouldn't pay for it for years, either. Then because there was no J41 sim in the UK they thought it would be OK to do the training on an ATP sim at PIK. I think the CAA thought that was a daft idea, too.

[KAT TOO]

BRAL were cat 2 for the last couple of years before Eddington switched the lights of at BRAL.

[niknak]

1 - Even if the aircraft did have cat2 performance gear fitted, the weather up north yesterday was so poor when Eastern were en route, that I doubt they'd have been able to make a Cat2 ILS approach.

2 - How much would it cost to equip the entire fleet of JS41s (and any subsequent aircraft they obtain) with Cat2 ILS, and keep all the crews current on the procedures?

3 - Set those costs against the number of times a year Eastern have to divert or cancel flights because they can't make a Cat 2 ILS approach, and I think you'll have your answer as to why they haven't put the gear in the aeroplanes.

[HolyMoley]

All the (ex-BRAL) J41s have the kit installed. Ask where the nearest sim and then the next nearest is! In my day the nearest was Washington D.C.

[Saab 2000 Driver]

Correct me if I´m wrong, but I think that both their Saab 2000 and the crew is Cat IIIa qualified, certified and equipped! ;)

[HOODED]

It's cost them tonight they've just diverted 2 ac one to HUY and one to MME. Meanwhile the KLMUK and 3 Jet2 ac all landed. The BMIRs are in the hold awaiting 300m, currently 250m, but when the 2 Easterns were holding it was CAT2 conditions! Sad really!:ugh:

[Buster the Bear]

So if the planes are capable, so then one or both of the fight deck are not yet, or more likely the airline has yet to get CAA approval for CAT 2?

[excrab]

As Buster the Bear just said the fact that the aircraft have the equipment doesn't automatically enable the airline to operate to cat 2 limits.

Both crew members have to be qualified - initial training requiring about ten practise approaches in the sim, and current - generally if either pilot has less than a certain number of hours on type they will not be able to operate to cat 2 minima even if they are trained. Alternatively the aircraft can be temporarily downgraded to cat 1 for minor reasons, such as the replacement of a nav receiver etc. If you are an airline with a relatively high turn over of crews it can be a bit of a lottery to get a pair of qualified pilots and a cat2 capable aircraft together at the time when you need them (I'm not saying that is the case with Eastern, though).

For these reasons among others an airline may elect not to go to the expense and trouble of cat 2 approval - as was mentioned in an earlier post it is a question of balancing the potential cost of diversions against the cost of the cat 2 approval and ongoing training.

As far as the sim goes it certainly used to be the case that if there was no suitable simulator handy then approval could be obtained to use a different type for the first bit - the looking at the lights in cat 1 and 2 conditions etc but with more non-revenue training then being required in the aircraft for the go-arounds etc. For example, the old Brymon cat 2 training, if I remember rightly, made use of a DC9 sim for dash crews.

[682ft AMSL]

So from the crew perspective, what actually differentiates a CAT2 approach from a CAT 1.

I'm aware of the different minima for each type of approach but have never really grasped what is done differently on the flight deck in a CAT2 approach that permits the use of the lower operating minima.

MTIA

682

[KAT TOO]

682
Not sure where to start really, but radalt calls,go around procedures, visual cues, reversion minima(if some thing goes wrong!) the point here is that the kit is up to, so are the pilots, so its all down to the cost v benifit guys that write the cheques!!

The last few years have been (mainly) low pressure and blowy this year seems to be headed for high pressure and foggy.Sill now't wrong with teeside!!

[KAT TOO]

Just looking at the LBA website (arriavals) and its clear that the WX down there is costing Eastern money with both the Aberdeen and Southampton running a couple of hours late, still bmi didn't fare much better with a LHR cancellation and most of regionals flight running late. Jet2 shows that they were right to go for cat3a, looks like they all got home last night, more fog due mid morning, least its gone from up here, bring on the rain!!!!!

[682ft AMSL]

Lovely day up here, blue sky a bit of haze, nicely out of all the mess at lower levels.

A couple of diversions from Blackpool (RYR) and Liverpool (EZY) where things aren't so pleasant. MAN I think is just holding its own above CATII minima.

682

[boredcounter]

J41 is CAT2, or at laest our one was.
To maintain a fleet as such costs a big bag of cash.

ARE Eastern CAA approved for CATII ?

[niknak]

Bored - I don't think that they are, or ever will be.

Good for Suckling for taking the plunge, but their operations and customer base are completely different from Eastern's, Suckling need Cat2 on a regular basis, Eastern don't.

[HOODED]

Niknak, I would suggest that Eastern do as they operate quite a few sectors from LBA!

[qwerty2]

I'm sure Eastern can afford a few diversions with the money they save by avoiding Regulated Airspace.
I won't be flying with them.

[boredcounter]

Thanks for the reply.

It is all about risk (of capital outlay) assessment.
Cat1 v Cat2 v Cat3A v Cat3B and as identified here, the profit, not the cost.

Some types and routes just do not justify anymore than Cat? certification. It costs big bucks, divert 100 times and it is still cheaper, certify and up go the prices, down go the loads and income.

Take my Cat3A 737-500 on HF 3 years ago half way to FAO in August. 'Where d'yo want me to go, its below minima?'
'Balls, its 1500 RA' reaching for the Perf Manual, flicking thru the pages to reply 'LIS'

1800m min RVR in a CAT3A, shoot I've been (pax) RHS in worse on an SRA, but thems the rules!

Bizaar........



Bored

[FlyboyUK]

Having flown the J41 for BACX, I can confirm that all the aircraft that Eastern inherited are equipped for CAT II operations. Therefore I guess is probably cost/CAA approval issue.:ok:

[boredcounter]

and others...........

Sorry another thing we (I) missed here, along the cost lines?
could they afford the engineer(s) to maintain. Avionics is the big earner at the mo. Any other J41 operators to share the cost.
BACX in any guise had a big bag of 'grubbies' all flavours to maintain all a/c.

Good luck Eastern, at least they are picking up the route of all travel within the UK. Keep it cheap and reward will follow, with that comes fleet upgrades. The J41 is a good beast.

Pax, the J41, as any a/c (as I am sure you know bud) once lapsed from AWOPS costs a fortune to restore. Therefore I agree with you, pure cost, validation a/c and crew.

The merits of the first AWOPS certificate for an Airline can be minimal and may negate the outlay.

Perhaps any CAA type pips will correct me here, and please do.

If (as Eastern) I certify my a/c and crew CATII, at great cost, what minima could I expect at, say BHX.

Or, put another way, at BHX what minima do Eastern operate to as CATI.

If I spend mega bucks and get 250m RVR with a DH of 1000ft to start, is it worth it.

It is the DH (pilots rip me to bits here)


Bored

[FlyboyUK]

With Cat II (depending on the airfield) you'd typically get 300m RVR and 100ft Radio Alt decision hieght.

[boredcounter]

I think you about right there.

Eastern would have to have sim prog, or live flying ex to qualify.
Please correct me here, (I do support the Eatern trend), but that would be very GBP rich? Then the odd practice CATII instead of 'Finals over the keys' to catch up time.

Even if the costs of maintaining 8 (?) CATII a/c are as low as GBP100000 per year, without crew costs, could Eastern justify them? It is a hell of a lot of diverts.



Bored