Curious - UK police ops

[Genghis the Engineer]

This morning I was quietly catching up on my sleep at my desk, when my nap was rudely interrupted by a police helicopter (Bo105 I think) hovering outside the window. On observation the aircraft was hovering at about 300ft agl and he stayed in the vicinity for about 10 minutes.

What I find curious is that there was no visible police ground presence, there's been no accident of any sort in that spot that I'm aware of, and presumably Thames Valley police wouldn't be disturbing the Monday morning repose of law-abiding citizens (or electing not to comply with rule 5) without good reason.

So, purely out of idle curiosity, what sort of police operation would this probably be?

G

[RDRickster]

You probably didn't see the police outside your house because they were close against the exterior. You see, the secret lab in your basement that you've been using for experiments has finally caught the attention of your neighbors! They were just about to charge in, when the tactical officer in charge was told to stand down. Better check your rear view mirror... they are watching... always watching! :}

[Droopy]

Difficult to comment specifically as I'm not from Chiltern ASU, but we often do searches of - [mostly] rural areas for, say, missing persons. This would involve a widespread search without ground patrols being called unless we found something of note. Could be all sorts of reasons though......

Police operating levels aren't limited to Rule 5 as CAP 612 allows considerably lower where justified.

Unlikely to be a Bo105 as Chiltern use an EC135 with [I think] an AS355 as backup.

[Thomas coupling]

Definately not a BO105, no police use it. A/c being phased out soon after 2006 anyway 'cos it is beginning to struggle against EASA regs.

I spoke to the unit that was flying that day, and they reported that they got a tip off that you were sleeping on the job. This was in contravention of article 6a of the working time directive that states anyone found sleeping on night shift are to be awakened by a memorable event.
You are warned that next time you do it, the a/c will hover even closer:eek:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thanks for the correction on the type, I'm sure you're right - for me to recognise a flying machine it needs to be (a) small and fixed wing, or (b) military, or (c) have the type painted in large letters down the side.

I'm aware that rule 5 doesn't apply to police ops, but I assume that no pilot, even if permitted, would break it without good reason - so my curiosity was about what the reason might be. And I couldn't see any particular reason for police to be discrete on the ground when the Helo was making enough noise to wake up half of Oxfordshire and several dozen people had come out of their offices and homes to see what was going on.

But you're probably right RDR, they'll catch me eventually - there are certainly some very odd things in the corners of our cellar.

G

[sss]

you havnt been using your desk as an illegal landing pad and they were videoing it for the CAA?

[Helinut]

At 300 ft there would be no doubt if it was a POLICE helicopter - you should be able to read that off the side of it.

Chances are, if it was a police job, they were looking somewhere else than in your vicinity - it is often the case that you get a better view by displacing yourself away from the thing you are trying to look at

[Torque Dirty]

Ref 'Definately not a BO105, no police use it'

It probably doesn't count but i'm pretty sure the Norfolk police helicopter is a Bo105. I don't know what it would be doing outside YOUR window though!!

[RichiePAO]

If it was a Bolkow then Norfolk ASU were a wee bit off there ground. Unless of course a pilot was abusing some newbie police observers:O . Chilterns currently use two 135's, the days of the Twin Squirrels (TVPA and CPOL) are alas long gone:{ .

[md 600 driver]

west yorks use a 105 for backup dont they

[PANews]

To add to the confusion, the BO105 is also used by British Transport Police and the contract includes Chiltern.

If it was red, green and white and driven by a woolly chap who was singing it may have been the Veritair BO105 out of Cardiff on a railway job.

Do you have a railway [train set in loft does not count]?

If it was normal colours [blue/yellow] the plot thickens.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Blue and yellow, "Police" painted on the side, nearest railway line is about 5 miles away.

And I wouldn't get hung up about Bolkows, as I said my spotting skills are pretty poor where rotaries are concerned.

And the office in question is about halfway between the Welsh and Norfolk borders, so I'd have thought seeing an aircraft from either was pretty unlikely.

G

[Vfrpilotpb]

Genghis,

They could possible have been looking for a drop off point for that guy dressed in scarlet from way up north,


and I dont mean North were I am,



I mean Really Up North:cool:

[HeliEng]

Just to add my two penneth, Sussex ASU have a BO105 as back-up too!





"Some days I am the pigeon, some days the statue!"

[Sayagain...?]

Hide your stash, walk outside with your hands up and declare peace on the police...

[ppheli]

Pure coincidence, I assume, but Sussex's Explorer is AOG today and PAS have leased in a Veritair 105 as stand-in!

[EESDL]

HeliEng

Is this the same HeliEng that went North some years ago?

[HeliEng]

G'day EESDL it is indeed me, returned from the wilderness.

How's things been down here?

I have been doing a bit of this and a bit of that. A little bit of work for your full-time employer, but now have a full-time proper job.

PPHeli:- The Sussex Explorer has been AOG since last Tuesday!!! (BO105 arrived Monday just gone!)
Damn MD, buy Bell that's what I say.


"Some days I am the pigeon, some days the statue!"

[cyclic]

TC

The Bo105 OOS date is only to comply with JAR IFR considerations. There is nothing to stop operators continuing VFR ops. Anyway, I think the date is 2009.

[PANews]

I guess this post should go under the heading of that old North Country saying ….

‘There’s nowt so queer as folk…’


With Sussex grounded for over a week that must be seriously affecting their overall availability…. [it took nearly a week to get the spare aircraft from Vertitair] and of course the Explorer remains unavailable… Presumably the manufacturers well documented cash-flow problems might have some bearing on failing to get spares instantly…but in the end that does not matter greatly.

Just two months ago the whole fleet was grounded [for a week or more I am told] for the replacement of the rotor head attachment pins, and a subsequent high profile inspection requirement on many units.

By my reckoning just those 14 days AOG [and of course it grows daily even if the unit itself is finally operational] trashes any comparison with the availability figures coming back from EC135 units. They appear to be returning 97-98% even with the significant trouble they had with the FADAC failures until this summer and an assumed AOG or two. The sole A109 operator failed to rise to TCs 98% challenge a while back so we must guess that Dyfed are not in that league either.

Still, at a time when the manufacturers must be a bit low at the continued failure of those Dutch Explorers to meet their delivery schedule [two in place by December 2003], all is not gloomy.

MDHI can shortly announce the sale of another 900 into the UK police market as soon as the Home Office cash is assured for the Cambridgeshire bid.

Cambridge Police announced the selection of the currently keenly priced Explorer last week [although I guess the bid decision must have been a couple of months ago].

It does not seem to matter that Cambridgeshire is part of an otherwise wholly EC135 equipped East Anglian consortium and that means that pilots will not be easily interoperable… more engineering skills will need to be added to the pool at Aeromega or whoever gets the new contract in April [at what additional cost for each?].

And clearly before choosing the Explorer above all others because it was ‘Cheap as chips’ in the current exchange rate situation they must have investigated thoroughly the availability profile, capability [SPIFR in VMC being available but still not IMC], range and fuel burn issues before coming to their decision. How can you go IFR if you do not have sufficient fuel for the diversions?

That leaves aside how the exchange rate will actually be handling in two or three years when they have to actually pay out for it [and all those difficult to get spares]. Cheap as chips?

Surely? They would look into all that wouldn’t they….?

Please tell me they would ….. PLEASE!

[ppheli]

PANews
I'm sure that if Cambridgeshire Police have OK'd this internally, they will "buy dollars" now to preserve the exchange rate - they may actually make some money out of just that transation given the current rate.

However, your "cheap as chips" comments need expanding further. It suggests that MD are dumping aircraft on the market in desparation to get some cash? Why would they need to do that - are you suggesting the Dutch contract is in serious jeopardy and that MD now need to sell 8 white-tails into the market? I note that the new South Yorkshire aircraft was a serial number originally allocated to the Dutch contract, but that does not always mean much as MSNs do change "on the line" prior to delivery.

Just how bad is the MD situation? Redundancies? How many more white tails? If you check their boss's predications at HAI - (see here (http://www.mdhelicopters.com/News/_Current_News/MDHI%20Announces%202002%20Deliveries;%20Schaeken%20Makes%202 003%20Projections.htm) ), he predicted all the 8 Dutch ones delivered by year end, also 5 to Germany (the 3rd delivered last week) and 10 600Ns to Turkey (status anyone?).

Remember too that there's an EMS sale to Northumbria announced at Helitech - wonder what they will make of all this?

BTW, did you really mean "Vertitair"....? it reminded me of S****horpe...............

ppheli

PS
wow, that was clever of PPRUNE! In that last sentence, I put the name of a Yorkshire coastal town and PPRUNE functionality converted it to asterisks! It sort of helps to prove my little jest rather nicely....

[ShyTorque]

ppheli,

Which coast of Yorkshire is Sc*nthorpe on?

It's not far from the Isle of Axholme, I'll grant you that, but p'raps the tide just went out a long way last time I looked :p

[ppheli]

I'm sure that if you were flying at 3000' over this town and CAVOK, you could see the coast... which you couldn't from where I am, so that makes it near(er) the coast than me. OK, so my geography north of the Midlands needs a bit of brushing up. ;)

It reminds me that the southerly force area that includes the "Isle of Purbeck" is also looking at getting a "cheap as chips" MD

[ShyTorque]

ppheli,

I once stayed in a hotel with a so-called "sea view" like that.... ;)

Testing testing: S****horpe, Sconthorphe, Scvnthorpe .... :ok: got it!

[Helinut]

Who F,

trying to answer your questions:

Yep, the CAA have generated a change to the Police Air Operations Manual (that we all have to comply with). Police pilots generally don't have to be IR, but we all did have to do IF training. As a result of the Strathclyde accident (and one or two others) the amount of IF training is to be increased. The CAA has pledged that we won't have to go IR "for at least 3 years". the cynics amongst us, used to politicians pronouncements, might regard that as a schedule by another name.

Some current UK police helicopters are not IFR certified. IFR certification for the UK is more onerous than for some places.

The other big problem to proper IFR is fuel reserves - it is a problem for any IFR helicopter operation, but especially for police aircraft because the mission equipment is so heavy.

[Before someone accuses me of being incorrect, there is one police helicopter unit that does operate IFR, with IR pilots]

NVG - at the moment there is one unit that uses NVG for pilots, one that uses them for observers. Several more are in the process of moving to NVG. The CAA stance has changed a bit. They seem to be much more keen on them, than previously.

There are big practical difficulties to going IFR in some cases in the UK. Many Units operate in areas with little or no IFR letdowns (we aren't allowed to use GPS). Also police ops are fundamentally VMC, visual contact.

However, we do need the skills, currency, equipment, fuel etc. to be able to cope if we go inadvertent at night...........

[Tandemrotor]

Sorry for joining this thread a little late (and apologies if I have missed the real thrust), but it has always amazed me that people think the only time you need to be skilled, AND current to fly on instruments is when you are in cloud!!

Try manouvering on a dark night over an unpopulated area at (relatively) low level and low speed, then throw in a few nearby hills!!

The use of nvgs may help, but conversely it INCREASES the chances of inadvertent imc!

Fly safe!

[Thomas coupling]

Cyclic: BO105 O.O.D. by 2005/6 for night IFR ops. (No ht or Hdg hold). O.O.D. for HEMS landing performance to public interest sites...was April 2004, then 2005, now currently 2008 as the Germans fight for another delay!!

So many other juicy bits to respond to:
Pilot IR
MD900 serviceability
EC135 Vs MD900 flight in IMC
Advantages of NVG's
Filing IFR Vs inadvertent IIMC
Police IFR ops.


But I can't be a**ed at this time of night:zzz:

[Helinut]

flungdung,

I think that (our) CAA attitude to GPS approaches is as close to "over my dead body" as makes no difference - the only pronouncements from them are to say that GPS will never be used as an approach navaid in the UK. I think they suffer from a peculiarly selective form of tunnel vision, so that they are unable to see good practice in other countries, UNLESS it would involve less aviation in the UK.

I believe that we use AS355(a few left) EC135(lots) MD902(lots) A109E(1) BK117(1), and probably occasional BO105 in the UK.

It is the Devon & Cornwall BK117 that is operated IFR/instrument rated. It would be very difficult to get any of the others to have IFR fuel reserves in police role, as yoou suggest.

P.S. Please can I move somewhere sensible where the regulator's goal is not to stop aviation?? :( :ugh:

[Pilotage]

For the benefit of us Brits who have never had the chance to fly one, how does a GPS approach work then?

P

[robnewman]

to bring this threead back to life, and in answer to the original question Veritairs BO105 is still in the white, green and red livery and has never been in police livery. it is used as back up for South and East Wales ASU and as Primary Aircraft for British Transport Police. BTP are currently working with Network Rail to secure funding for a year round ASU, rather then the present set up which is about 100 days per year. the BO105 is used rather than the AS355 as the aircraft more often than not has to land in small areas to enable the Police Observer to respond to incidents, such as Fatalities on the railway. the BO105 is much better at helipad T/O than the 355 which tends to be a sod to get airbourne on a warm day.

hope this clears up any confusion, but as for the origin of the police marked BO105 .... ????