NSW counter-terrorism helicopter

[Heliport]

ABC Online NSW counter-terrorism chopper takes flight
New South Wales's counter-terrorism capability has been bolstered with the commissioning of a multi-million-dollar helicopter.

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200312/r13109_31565.jpg

Premier Bob Carr has commissioned the $4.5 million rapid response helicopter.

The State Government says the state-of-the-art helicopter will allow for the rapid deployment of emergency personnel to the scene of a terrorist attack.

At the helicopter's launch, Mr Carr warned that Australia was likely to face a terrorist attack at some time.

[John Eacott]

$A4.5m :eek: :rolleyes:

For a second hand 117-B2? No wonder it didn't go to tender :confused: :rolleyes:

[Spaced]

I know what you mean John, I was expecting a Black Hawk or something.:O

[belly tank]

It will give the cops a new toy to play with anyway!!

maybe they should have considered an A109 power like the US coast guard have decked out with goodies, or anyone would have thought the Tigers we bought would be adequite enough!

election time is obviously looming closer!!

[John Eacott]

Remember, they had a BK117 many moons ago, which didn't fly too well after the engine door opened into the main rotor blades :( The machine is well suited to the task, looking at the photo the overload tank will help with endurance, but I'd expect a wire strike protection kit if they're serious about counter terrorism. Not much use going in tactical if a domestic power line takes out $4.5m :rolleyes:

[Gibbo]

I don't imagine that they will do air assault with it John; however, if they are planning to, it may have just as short a life as the last one.

[Heliport]

Extract from Sydney Morning Herald report Anti-terror chopper rolls out

The POLAIR 5 helicopter, to be shared by NSW police and the fire brigade, has extra fuel tanks to give it a range of 1,000 kilometres and has a cruising speed of 250kph.

It can can carry 10 passengers and is fitted out for bomb squad and hazardous materials operations.

NSW Premier Bob Carr said the new helicopter would allow specialised teams to react quickly if the worst happened.
"Everything we have learned since Bali and September 11 (2001) confirmed you need to get people and equipment to the scene of a terrorist strike as soon as possible," he told reporters at Sydney's Bankstown Airport.


Full report here. (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/07/1070732064030.html)

[Ascend Charlie]

Just don't get Chucky out of retirement to fly it.:uhoh:

[PANews]

The police and fire chaplains then blessed POLAIR 5 and sprinkled it with holy water at today's unveiling.



What was that you said about it having trouble with water last time.... ?

Surely they should have used the real stuff Holy Water [with the BIG letters] ........ isn't is better than that other holy water stuff?:D

[High Nr]

Now watch some flat foot load up the 10 passengers [obviously a very friendly bunch], together with all that stuff hanging off the outside and a 1000 kms of fuel....will be fun to watch.

It will be on the news in more ways than one!!!...bet its dinted within 12 months.

[Chopper Jog]

This is not Hollywood - the real world afterall!! What are they going to achieve with a single helicopter if there is a real terrorist attack or threat? You must be joking!! Once again some bureaucratic government official that waisted $4.5 million of state taxes that could have been spend on something more worthwhile.

Leave this for the military that is fully qualified for anti-terrorism operations. Let the police do the FLIR car chases and the rest of the duties that are associated with a police air wing.

Rest my case. I have my armoured-plated jacket on - fire away!!

Chopper Jog

[RDRickster]

I agree with Chopper Jog, as well. Let the military address this kind of threat, because they have a budget for it and are specifically trained to do so. Now, here is my curveball (not intended to hi-jack this thread)...

This reminds me of the debate of whether or not U.S. airline pilots should carry firearms in the cockpit. Look, I am a card carrying member of the NRA, but in this case... I say not "no," but "hell no!"

I think the pilot should focus on flying the aircraft... period. The focus should be to take your advisaries ability to do harm away from them. Specifically, the cockpit doors should be explosion proof and impenetrable... period. The Israeli's have much more experience in this arena than we have... and they have a phenominal success rate! Let Air Marshall's do their job, and protect the pilots with proper cockpit doors so pilots can do their job.

My main arguement is that pilots are inadequately trained to deal with the additional threat. They only receive ONE WEEK of training to carry a firearm... not enough for these conditions. When I was in the military, it took me YEARS of training before I was considered "proficient" in tactical situations... and I was constantly in training... constantly, constantly, constantly.

I believe that airline pilots have the ability to achieve a reasonable level of safety, and more importantly - discipline in panic situations. I don't believe they have the tools and training necessary to be at that level... period. During an attempted forced entry situation (storming the cockpit), the pilot is expected to: identify the threat, react to the attack, fly the aircraft, remove a firearm from its holster, charge the weapon, rotate the selector level from safe to fire, assume a defensive position, and place a well-aimed round into an advancing enemy... all without substantial damage to the aircraft and all in a matter of 1-3 seconds? IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. The "point and shoot" theory is OVER simplified and doesn't account for the level of discipline required... a level of discipline that "operators" train for extensively.

Okay, I guess I've hi-jacked this thread (no pun intended). The overall message (opinion) I'd like to convey is let police attend to civilian's and let military attend to attacks on the State. They should learn to work together, but this overlap seems a bit much.

[High Nr]

No you havn't "Hijacked" the thread. It's all related to aviation, security and wasting money.

In NSW there is a general lack of planning regarding Helicopter Assests. Look at the typical fire fighting helicopters, poor planning, lack of dedicated trained organised contractors, hope we can get assests when we are on fire mentality. And the Police are no exception. After they lost the BK many years ago they were/are terribly equipped and organised as far as helicopters are concerned, pathetic comes to mind!!

So its not a suprise that the BK was bought, the state above NSW, Queensland has government B412's, AS350 and a host of smaller community based twins and singles doing EMS/Police/SAR work, and Victoria down south has the most progressive Police Serevice in the country with N3's and AS350. [Contracted airframes with Police Crews]. But NSW has nothing similair.

I can only hope that a good swag of that 4.5 is on spare parts and training, due to the Police Service not really being the most switched on government arm to run helicopters, just look at Perths Police aircraft.

As far as Pilots with Guns. This was done to death on Jet Blast where the views were very polarised in both directions. It seemed that the gun totting folk that arm themselves to go to the supermarket, thought that they could save their stricken airliner with their private issue 50 cal mounted on the back of the centre console, whilst the other viewpoint was to leave it to the experts, with strong viewpoints and arguements in both directions!

Yes El Al does have a good track record. They have two armoured doors, providing an airlock between the doors. And a procedure that when a pilot needs to "P" then the @# number of Marshalls are alerted by &^%$ and all are brought to "Stand By", and the pilot quickly does his business and returns before all are at rest again. The doors are never to be both opened at once.

If you have flown on these aircraft you may have noticed that you [if not holding an Israeli passport and with your surname ending in "stein"] were sitting down the back and on a window with a couple of solid folk around you- -its called passenger profiling. You will see more and more of this in the other western countries soon I'm sure.

[RDRickster]

I guess I'm one of those stupid, toothless, red-neck, son-of-a-guns that likes to see my rifle hang'in from the gun rack in the rear view mirror of my pickup truck... on my way to the diner to pick up my waitress girlfriend (the same one every other red-neck SOB is dating)! :}

Actually, I quite enjoy firearms... and I own a few. I strongly believe in our constitutional right to bear arms. All kidding aside, I even drive an F150! :p

That said, I think putting firearms in the cockpits makes it more of a target. Pilots have enough to contend with, and El Al has the right idea. If bad guys can't access sensitive areas, you've taken the motivation away from them (and their ability to wage war against you). Plus, all the other reasons I mentioned above come to mind again.

[helmet fire]

Re NSW counter-terrorist helicopter...............

(cockpit guns topic should definately be moved to another thread)

I am fascinated with the lack of comment on this thread, and with the lack of public debate about it's introduction.

Was an independant mission analysis conducted? Is the reasoning behind the purchase open to the public?

I hope that they are labeling the thing a "counter terrorism" helicopter in order to sensationalise the purchse and jump on the band wagon of Sept 11 to acquire new toys - which I believe they did desperately need. BUT, surely even they cannot seriously consider that this machine is acually appropriate for counter terrorism.

To suggest that one BK117 is a tactical assualt asset is ABSURD. John Eacott, I cannot agree with your assesment that "the machine is well suited to the task" if you are talking counter terrorism. Ridiculously small access doors, the ability to insert the overwhelming(!!) firepower of four or five blokes, no defensive capability, no armoured components, poor cockpit visibility, no NVG, etc etc etc. Wire Strike is waaaaay down the list. How about the fact that the money was spent when one of the world's premier counter terrorist force, the SAS, is on the doorstep? Hands up those who would rather the NSW police and their BK are sent into rescue your son/daughter/mother from some nutcase terrorist whilst the SAS watch the news broadcasts?

Lets examine the other roles stated above, HazChem, Bomb Squad, and troop transport. This is where the helicopter is desperately needed, and I reckon that if they had to jump on the counter terrorism train to get it, then well done - because the outcome justifies the means. The intresting thing about those other roles, however, is the lack of suitability of the machine for the task - although I agree that it can perform them to a limited extent. For example, I would be suprised if a BK could carry a HazChem team in one hop, or even the old bomb squad robots, and as for carrying 10 troops - I dont think so.

I would say that a B412 may have been far more appropriate, although for the money they are talking, I am guessing that it would be excluded on budgetary grounds. It has the large cargo friendly cabin, big sliding access doors, up to 9 tactical troops and crew, 13 pax plus crew, lots of grunt, etc. It seems a shame that the NSW government did not provide them with the necessary funds to do the job properly. Seems to be the way of the police - ask them to do more, but equip them to do less.

So what else? How about a B212? BK priced, 412 cabin space and lifting capacity. How about three or four UH-1H? 412 cabin space, better than BK lifting capacity, same cruise speed, comes off the shelf with NVG cockpits, wire strike for John, etc. Might even be able to support the Fire Brigade too!! Or how about from left field - a Mil 17? Running costs you yell? Fair enough.

But they do seem to have spent a lot of money for little gain in capability over that already offered by their AS355N.

I have now gone into hiding...............

:} :}

[pohm1]

How suitable is the BK to any kind of police role? I've no experience of the machine but seem to recall that Western Australia got rid of theirs for a more suitable kind.

[Spaced]

Just as an extra side not I belive that there is a counter terrorism unit being set up on Garden Island. I cant remember the full details, but I thought they were bringing down a couple of blackhawks to base there.
As usual though the BK is more window dressing for the gulluble NSW voters. If they buy a helicopter the government can say "look at all we are doing" reguardless of the effectiveness.
Although with the NSW gov being rabidly anti helicopter, its amazing they even know what they look like. How many other citys around the would, with a population over 5 mil, dont have a city heliport?

[200psi]

The coppers are about as capable as the machine, police in a CT role give me a break!

[mickinst]

Gotto agree with helmet fire. Having been personally involved with the ADF's CT capability in recent times, no-one could get anywhere near the capability. I would suggest that the BK would be a nice transit vehicle to remote sites but I doubt it would every directly assault anything.

Watch NSW airspace for a CT Sqn in the next couple of years!

[OFBSLF]

The coppers are about as capable as the machine, police in a CT role give me a break!Depends upon the coppers, I should think. From what I've been told, some of the best SWAT teams in the US are pretty capable. Are they as good as SAS? No, of course not. But not to be trifled with either.

[PANews]

I guess you will probably have to allow a little 'Politicians Leeway' here.

Have you not noticed that lately everything is getting the anti-terrorist label stuck on it. Airport get a necessary upgrade to its radar or car washing facility and it all comes out of the terror funds because it looks good..... for the politico....

I have no doubt that this tired refurbished old BK will have a part to play in an anti-terror role, but equally I suspect the tired old NSW police fleet will have a greater role to play even though they were bought with pre-911 funding and there is not real mileage to be had from showing them off too.

And its going to be the same across the World.

Or am I being just too cynical for words?

[John Eacott]

A couple of photos of the new addition:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/NSW%20117B2.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/NSW%20BK117.JPG

[Dynamic Component]

High Nr,

Corect me if I'm wrong, but don't the NSW police have a 206, AS350B2 and 355N?

As for a police helicopter in SE Queensland, I heard that they use the Queensland Emergency Services helicopters SOMETIMES.
:}

[Nigel Osborn]

They also use SLSQ's 350 sometimes.

[belly tank]

Dynamic Component,

yes correct they have a 206, 350B2 and a 355

[PANews]

I understand that Queensland Police - normally associated with fixed wing transportation rather than response helicopters - used an ex-US police OH-6A for the recent Rugby World Cup [RWC].

Detail is sparse, but my understanding is that the owner bought in a Wescam sensor pod [ex-North Wales police AS355F2 G-NWPI] for the job.

As this [vital?] item of equipment arrived on the eve of the RWC I have my doubts that the venerable OH-6A was up to the mark for the event [how long did it take to install and de-bugg the Wescam?] but I understad that the operator is now after a searchlight for the machine .... so it appears that Queensland is moving forward, even if slowly.