What's the best route to be a commercial airline pilot?

[poobaboon]

Hi, just looking for some advice. I have always wanted to a be pilot for a commercial airline but i'm not really sure of what the best route is. I have heard airlines always look for someone who has a degree, I am currently in my first year of computing but I could transfer to an Aviation with pilot studies degree course, where I also could obtain my PPL so do you think this degree
would give me an advantage? Also, where do you go from there? I have had a look at some airlines website and found airlines like EasyJet and Thomas Cook use CTCmcalpine but how does everyone else learn? One more question, is their a specific prescription for eye sight, and could I wear my specs for the eye tests for the (class 1???) medical certificates I would need? Im in
the UK if that makes any difference to anything.

Many thanks for any advice you can offer

Daniel

P.S this is my first post so sorry if it doesn't look good with no decent font etc or if its not in the most relevent group

[Chuffer Chadley]

Welcome aboard, Pooey my friend

Some issues:
Most of the responses to your posting will probably be along the lines of 'Read through old threads as the subject has been done enough alread'. Don't worry too much about that- after all, one doesn't know unless one has been told, eh?

My top tips:

1) Finish your degree. Whatever it is, it won't really matter. Computer stuff is a good one. Nice numerical/technical subjects will help you in your studies, but it's not a huge deal. Just have an answer ready for when the interviewer asks why you didn't do aerodynamics or something. Pilot studies sounds like a funny sort of degree to me.

2) AFTER your degree re-asses the situation. If you were to be finishing education about now, then the CTC/Easy scheme would be your first point of call.

3) If the CTC or some similar sponsorship doesn't work out for you, then you need to fund your training (CPL/IR) yourself. Budget for around £35k, and 12-18months of time not working.

4) Before spending too much time/money/emotional energy, get a class 1 medical and do a bit of private flying. You never know, you may hate it, and that would save you quite a bit of money. You could start your PPL while at university if you're so inclined.

5) Watch these 'Wannabees' forums with some attention. Don't worry if you read without writing too much.

6) Have a chat with your local flying club/school. It may be full of people with useful tips and amusing stories. Or it may not.

Hope this helps.

Ciao for now.

PS: Medical- glasses do not necessarily rule you out- you'll have to get the chaps at Gatwick to have a look at you.

[poobaboon]

Hi thanks for your reply.
Im in my first year, only just realised this Aviation degree exists and my main reasons for doing that would not only would be a lot more interesting than computing but surely all the stuff I would learn would come in useful or be a difference if they were deciding between me and someone else? If your interested, this is the course http://tinyurl.com/xraa. I suppose I just think it would be good to learn about all the technical mechanical side, whilst also working to get a PPL both at once, save time and money? Is CTC the main one to look for then, I tend to see most airlines in their jobs sections have little about training, they seem to want already qualified pilots with x amount of flying hours etc.

Thanks for tips

daniel

[tailscrape]

Chuff is correct.

His advice is sound and thought out too.

I would say that a degree is NOT a must have at all, however if you do a degree, I do not think it would harm to have it another skill than aviation.

That way it gives you a fall back if you do not get flying for any reason.

[yeboin]

Hello Daniel

If I were you I'd apply for the CTC cadetship, for someone your age, its the best way of getting to the airlines in the current climate. You can apply now and go for selection while you are studying. There is the mother of all threads on CTC selection on this very Forum. It you are in Leeds, go up to Multiflight at LBA and have a chat with the guys there, or you could go to Sherburn and do the same. I wsh I'd done the pilot studies degree too, ah well! English is just as good!:ugh: :confused:

Anyway, good luck mate:ok:

[jamojdm]

Hiya,

this is my first post too. But I have been browsing the forum for some time now.

I am in a similar situation to you. I'm a Student at Uni of Manc studying Computer Engineering, currently in my second year.

The big dilemma I have at the moment is whether to do a year in industry between my second and third years.

Also I am looking to get my PPL between now and the end of next summer. Is that the right option if you primarily want sponsorship?

Should I apply to CTC now or wait till after I get my PPL and am in my third year of uni?

Cheers

Jamo

[winch launch]

hey

First I should say that the davices from chuff and tailscrap are very good. And it is true that u don t really need a degree to become a pilot. BUT, having a degree has several advantages. First, u ll show that u have other skills, that could be usefull for an airline pilot. Doing computer programing probably devellops your skills, in analysis as well as others (get good informations on what does the job of a pilot really consists of, and try to relate it to your course, to sell yourself at the interview). The other thing with a degree, is that you will have some skills, that might allow you to take further responsabilities in the compagny u work in. I know that at air france for example, there are several guys that did some business degrees, and that have other tasks to do aside of being a pilot(in managment or something). It is both interesting, and gets u money ( and the most important, u still get to fly!). I know what u r enduring right now. I am doing an aero engineering degree, and it s boring, and too hard. I thought about stoping so many times because i don t wanna do anything else than flying, but it is an advantage. Every pilots i talked to, and i even talked to a BA recruitment guy, all told me that a degree is a very good advantage. ALso, jamo, I am thinking about doing a year in the industry. Try to do it in the aero industry ( airline compagnies if poss) and use the money u get to start flying. They wanna see that you put a lot of effort in becoming a pilot, and that you work as much as u can to fly.
you guys might also be interested in reading this survey:
http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm.
Finally, i think a pilot degree course could be good. But be very carefull on studying what qualifications it will give you.
Don t missunderstand me, a degree doesn t mean u ll be a good pilot, but recruitment might see things they like about u that u aquired thanx to your degree.
Sorry for the long message, and for the bad english(i am not a native speaker). And good luck to u guys.
Winch

[No. 2]

Poobaboon,

Here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED_JAR_C1_Initial_Visual_Stds.pdf) are the class 1 eye standards.

Best of luck,

James

[scroggs]

A degree may well be an advantage in the search for a sponsorship, or a flying job, but it is not usually a requirement - in UK. There have been some employers who have expressed a strong preference for degree-qualified candidates, and one or two sponsorships in the past have required a degree, but they are in the minority.

There is little or no relative advantage, in employment terms, for a prospective pilot taking an aviation-related degree. Where a degree is preferred by an employer, it is the fact that you have studied for, and succeeded in achieving, a degree that is important, rather than the subject. This is not a similar situation to engineers, lawyers and medics, for whom the degree is an integral part of their professional qualification process.

Therefore, the degree you choose should be in the subject you enjoy most. If that's aeronautical engineering, great, but don't expect any more credit for it than the guy who did history.

As for the more practical aspects of getting into flying, as Chuffer says, get in an aeroplane and see if you like it. Have a look at the study required for the ground exams, and be sure that you're ready to take that on as well as (or soon after) your degree. Get a Class 1 medical. If there are any issues which may prevent you from getting one, deal with them now. DO NOT spend any money on professional flying training until your Class 1 is in the bag. Do the GAPAN aptitude tests to assess what your potential is (do a search in this forum if you've never heard of the GAPAN tests), and think carefully about the wisdom of committing serious money to training if their advice is against it.

Work hard. Be committed to your ambition. But above all, enjoy it!

Scroggs

[stick&rudder]

winch launch!

the course ain't that bad!
stick with it!
ignore those bloody stupid aerodynamics lecturers tho:mad: - haven't got a clue!
when we gona make it down to nymps next then?

stick

[REvans]

A few of you have mentioned that if your half way through a degree then finish it and it seems like the right idea. However, would you advise an 18 year old with 2 or more decent A levels to start a degree when in 3 years time they will graduate with a big debt which maybe could be spent on flight training or at least not on top of something like a HSBC career development loan should there be a need for one. The last thing you want is to be paying 2 big loans off.


RE

[Chuffer Chadley]

RE

I have to say I don't envy you, and the tricky decision you are going to have to make.

It is worth pointing out a few things: (and mixing a couple of metaphors)
1) Although the recruiting tide appears to be turning, we are not out of the woods yet. Now is not necessarily a fantastic time to start training. A gamble may, however, pay off.
2) A degree gives a backup plan to the volatile aviation industry.
3) Going to university is great fun, and in 3 years, if passenger number predictions are correct, we will all be making hay in the sunshine.

However, Tony has decided that you will suffer from going to uni, so it's up to you. The best of luck for whatever you decide.

Ciao
CC:ok:

[GJB]

Can I recommend a book: "Guide to Becoming a Professional Pilot" by Clive Hughes.

It is very well written and should prove a valuable point of reference.

[REvans]

Thanks CC some good points there. Your right it is a hard decision, the decision is another 3 years off for me and alot of things could change in that period, fingers crossed it's all good. :ok:


RE

[yeboin]

I have to say I think on the whole I now regret going to uni. Yeah sure it was a great time, grew up, cheap beer and the rest. However the letter from the student loan people turned up a month ago and now I'm looking at a debt of over 10K before I even start any professional training. I now feel I should have started working at 18 and avoided the student debt in the first place. That way I'd be further up (down) the slippery fATPL slope.

Other guys have mentioned the many plus points of Uni,and they are all correct. A degree does also = backup plan. But what is the use of a backup plan if you know that in your heart all you want to do is fly? To me a backup plan is a like an emergency checklist - what to do when everything has gone horribly pete tong. And it is hard to contemplate failure before you even start. I dont mean to discourage the guys doing A-levels, halfway through degrees etc - yes uni is a good idea and has many good points, but it also carries a hefty financial cost/penalty. This is just the way i feel about the whole go/don't go to uni question where I am right now.

Good luck with your studies guys;)

[winch launch]

degree does also = backup plan. But what is the use of a backup plan if you know that in your heart all you want to do is fly?

you are totally right, and i can tell u that if i had to choose between being a glider instructor, and an engineer, i would choose the flying. So i didn t go to uni for a backup plan, i just thought that i would be more attractive to airlines with a degree. But I am seriously starting to wonder if I am wrong or not. Yes, I think that i seriously benefit a lot from those 2 years at bristol uni, and i think my course certainly tought me a lot on airplanes, their flight mechanics, and i even have an airline business and operation lecture every week. But now, it s getting more and more technical, and i am not sure that knowing the different microstructures in a beam according to the rate of cooling, won t really help me to fly a plane. I think that if i get that stuppid master(or bachelor), it will be a good achievement but at the end of the day, i am a flying man, and I wasn t made to sit on a desk to do things that i hate and find boring(which is what s happening right now). Yes if u are reading this, you must have noticed that i am totally lost, and any advices would be welcome. I am actually thinking about dropping my course now, raising money for 7 month, and try any kind of sponsorship i can, and if it doesn t work, i ll just start my training. Also stick, I am already ignoring aerodynamics lectures, as well as many others!

winch

[scroggs]

Perhaps one of the most important things that many of you need to learn is that taking advice from those in the same position as yourself is a bit pointless! You need to listen to those who have been thriough the system and experienced both the highs and the lows, the successes and failures, and have learned how to deal with them. Speculation from other wannabes is interesting, but often not helpful.

You need a back up plan because, very often, life doesn't work out the way you want it to. Even if things do work out, it might take a great deal longer than you'd anticipated to get that first paid flying job, and you need to earn a living in the meantime. You may, like thousands of type-rated ATPL-qualified pilots in 2001, lose your flying job at a time when there are none to be had elsewhere yet you have a 100k mortgage and wife (or husband) and two kids to support. These things really happen to real people, and it's a safe bet that at least 50% of you will suffer prolonged unemployment at some point in your flying career.

So back-up plans are important. I don't care whether it's a degree or a plumbing course; just make sure you are able to earn a living some other way. The number of pilots who make it to full-term retirement without needing some kind of back-up is very small.

Scroggs

[Man Flex]

I tend to agree with Scroggs although I haven't experienced this yet. My tale goes along something like this...

Started four year Aeronautical Engineering degree course October 1992 having already achieved PPL/IMC and about 200 hours.

Left said course after a year realising it was much as Winchlaunch has described.

After working over the summer months started a full time course at the London Guildhall University studying for the CPL theory.

Twelve weeks later and all CPL ground subjects completed I tackled the CPL GFTs finishing finally about two months later.

Six months after this I undertook a flying instructor course and went on to instruct first of all part-time then full-time for three years.

Having completed the IR I had my first commercial job three months later.

So in summary; left boring university course June 1993. First commercial job flying turbo-props January 1997.

You decide.

[winch launch]

Hey

I have actually seriously thought about dropping the course. I found a pretty good job (that I didn’t t accept yet) in the aviation, and thought I should work on that for about 8 months. In the mean time I would try any sponsorship I know, and if they don t work, I would start my ATP training. There is one thing that worries me though. People keep on telling me that dropping from a course, especially in the middle of a year, will look very bad in my CV. Recruiters would think that I was just scared of the exams, and didn t dare to face the work or something like that…(as I explained in my previous posts, it s not really the reason) I got advised to finish my second year, and drop after my exams. I feel it s a bit of a waste of time, and if I fail (which might happen because I am a bit struggling, and have lack of motivation) I guess it would probably look even worse, to drop after failing. Man Flex, u said you stoped your course, but was it after exams? Also u probably had the valuable argument of saying that u just didn t like the course, while if i say that, a recruiter will wonder why i started a second year then. I am a bit hesitating, and any advices would be welcome. I wanna make sure I make the right decision.

thanx a lot for the previous replies
Winch

[Craig Watson]

Hi,
This is my first post of these boards, so apologies If I've put this in the wrong place (the huge array of boards you've got here look a bit daunting at first glance).

I'm 16 and looking to become a commercial pilot within the next few years, and I was wondering what approach (forgive the pun) I should take to get into the industry. I am currently a member of my local Air Cadet unit (158 (Witham) D/F if anybody wants to know) and have been for the past 3 and a half years.

I know it's one hell of an expensive bill for the training, so I'm looking at CTC McAlpine's Cadet Sponsorship Scheme as a possible route in, along with other airline sponsorships.

Also, I'm curious of the limits of the JAR Class I medical with regards to weight in proportion to height. As a fairly large person, it's a bit of a worry to me that I might not even pass the medical.

Thanks in advance for any help
Craig
:ok:

[Waddo]

Im sorry to say this but u aint got a hope if u fail the medical the best thing to do is look at the medical requirments needed u can find these easily. If u want to be a pilot as much as u say u will b able to go out get fit an lose weight if u cant do this then u should really ask yourself the question is this really the job want.

[Snigs]

The medical is crucial to getting an ATPL, but as you're only 16 I think you'll physically change quite a lot between now and say 18.

I presume you are progressing towards a PPL, or at least doing some flying. If you're looking at a sponsorship they tend to like some flying experience.

The other important thing is to make sure you do reasonably well with the GCSE and A-level exams, this is also what "they" look for.

Good luck.

[FLYbyWIT]

I would'nt worry about your weight, so long as your healthy with low cholesterol levels etc etc you should be fine. I remember meeting a guy who shall remain nameless, he flys professionally and he is emmm "not thin". Dont worry yourself about it just go down to your local GP and get a checkup on things like cholesterol / sugar levels / blood pressure etc etc and it may be worth it to get more active anyway not necessarily to loose weight but when you do get to train and eventually work you gotta be resonabley "energetic"

[Boing7117]

First question to myself is, "Why am I typing this on Christmas Day?" - well, after all that Turkey and Lager, I'm kinda stuffed (no pun intended) - a bit of browsing the web should take my mind off things.

After reading this post (albeit slight repetition over the last few years) there does seem to be an awful lot of varying opinion over the usefulness of a degree and whether to do this course or that... or even forget the degree because why pay "2 loans instead of one?"

I'm 21. In my final year of a four-year degree. My degree is computing oriented. It has absolutely nothing to do with flying. When I was 18 I was so nieve and simple, that I took the degree on the basis that within a few months I would have been snapped up by an airline to begin a cadet pilot course. How wrong I was !

nearly 4 years later, I'm nearly graduated. I did an Industrial Placement, again, not airline related. Anyone serious about a degree these days needs to realise that EVERYONE HAS A DEGREE - what makes you stand out? SOMETHING ELSE! - Go to a rainforest for 6 months and save some trees. Visit a game park and herd some elephants - do a work placement and put your degree into practice - show that you can do it - show that you dont just turn up to lectures and hand in assignments that are predominantly plagiarised via other sources.

On the other hand, perhaps you are a "gung-ho", "all-out-for-it" , "die-hard" wannabee who WILL become a pilot at any cost. Brilliant attitude, and one that I constantly strive to achieve, but let's be realistic, there's probably several thousand of us out there and we need something that little bit extra to stand out above the rest.

If you're relatively young, 18, 19, 20 ish, like me, do a degree. Have yourself a fallback plan - the airlines will always recruit - but keep your options open. Airlines want a businessman/women flying their aircraft these days - they want someone who can show good management skills and organise the resources they have at their disposal - how does a graduate or twenty-something year old show that when they've just come out of education and are looking to start their career? They can't.

So how about organising your life and career paths in an "managed" fashion. Sort out your plans and build yourself some backup. Set some goals, meet some targets, cover yourself - and be prepared to accept mistakes and learn from them. Surely that's what being a good manager (and a pilot?) is all about?

Merry Christmas everyone.

[gijoe]

Boeing 7117 - what a very intelligent post.

Well done!

G:ok:

[Spike001]

Hi all

I decided not to go to uni, because just like many others, the debt situation wouldn't help, but prevent you from getting on with your flight training.
Coming out of uni with a debt of £10k + , then planning to start professional flight training - unless your damn rich or have won the national lottery, it would be wise to avoid uni because of the financial situation.
If your already heavily in debt, and then require a bank loan for flying, your chances would be quite slim, because the bank would see your already in debt, and would be worried about you paying back the money owed.

Yes, a degree is a great thing to have as a fall back or an alternative to flying, but as flight training is expensive and a degree is not essential, I would personally stick to the path of saving for PPL (showing commitment and dedication for flying), and then go for a loan, your chances in my opinion would be far greater...

.. this is what i'm doing.
You can go to uni at any stage in life, I personally believe it's best to deal with your dream/greater expense first and then consider uni if things don't work out (but at least you'll still have your flying qualifications + experience if that flying job comes along).


Anyway, good luck with your degree, and I wish you all the best :ok:

[peterfoele]

Hi all,

I must agree with Spike001.

I am a Belgian Pilot, and education on the other side of the channel is a bit different.
Anyway, I wanted to study at the university, but I was offered a job if I changed my study from Science to Mechanical. I took the opportunity, ended up working for this guy for almost 8 years. In the mean time I used my spare time to
- study to become a pilot (usual way PPL-CPL/IR-fATPL) +
- take a second job to pay for studies mentioned above.

When I started my CPL, I was told the outlook was very positive (talking 1996, and doing everything in spare time, so no day course).
2000: After graduating, and in the middle of applying for a job (had 2 interviews, discussing about a third) rules changed to JAR.
All of a sudden I needen ME and MCC. no more prospect for a pilot job until I got these. To make mathers worse, The guy I was working for (day time job) went bankrupt.:( :{

All I could do was contract work (not aviation related) as the otheer guy I worked for could not afford a full time employee, yet I did succeed in getting an ME/IR.

I have no more "IoweU" left (bank has been refunded), and moved to Glasgow.

The strongest advice I can give to you young Wannabees (I'm 33 BTW) DO NOT THINK THAT FINISHING A TRAINING (no matter what training) WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH A JOB.

[redsnail]

It is absolutely essential you have other skills other than flying to survive in this world.
You have to be very flexible. I have washed aircraft/cleaned offices etc until I could get a start flying. I have other qualifications as well.
Here's something for you all to think about.
Checkboard (the tech log moderator) has about 7500 hours, about 6000 on jets. Ansett collapsed leaving him and many other as experienced pilots out of work in Australia. He found it very difficult to get another job outside of aviation. After a year he gave up on Oz and came to the UK. Now he had to convert his licence a JAR one. In the meantime while waiting for an interview he looked for work. Was his flying quals and experience useful? Not to any one other than airlines. His job? Pouring beer at the local pub. Fortunately, he's now flying 737's again so he's happy.
My quals weren't recognised here either. I ended up in ops for 6 months before I started flying.
I feel the UK seems to be blindly advising folks to get a degree. Why not get a trade that you can use even after you are flying. Plumber, electrician, mechanic, even better aviation technician are all very useful skills to have. Every one needs their car serviced, houses wired and plumbed. Many of these trades will help with the ATPL study too, esp electrical and mechanical studies.

[Spike001]

Well this is what I was doing along side school, being a labourer/gardener, and now been doing it full time for 3 yrs now.
It's a good job to get into; it keeps you both fit and healthy while bringing in a good bit of cash for the flying. When I complete my training, even if I haven't found a job by then, this job will definitely prove as a bonus to pay back the loan, as there is always work about.... though a winter alternative would be sensible.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A friend of mine is a bit of a dosser - never has a job more than 6 months before he packs his rucksack and treks off to South East Asia or similar for an adventure. Anyway - 30 approaches and he decided he needs to get a sensible job for a little while to get a deposit together for a small house somewhere.

Looks at his last 10 years and finds he has worked in about 40 different bars, pubs and clubs. Puts together his CV and sends it to an agency. Within a day he had 6 interviews lined up and 3 of them turned into offers. He is now a manager of a TGI Fridays on £28,000 with some resonable benefits.

He's never earned more than £6/hr before and can't believe it.

He has an Anthropology degree from a very well respected University in the NW and superb school qualifications. Yet its his bar work experience that resulted in a flood of decent job offers.

Cheers

WWW

[Thumper2]

Hello all

Just curious, to some of the High Flyers, I have heard rumors that some airlines use "route" (or some other name) pilots for long hauls. I was just wondering what the qualifications are for such a person might be if such a position does exsist?

I am an old rotorhead with 9000 + hrs, atpl(H), IFR, Multi, all but 100 hrs is turbine, and good solid IMC time. Again just curious to see if the rumor is true and if possible.

Thanks :D

[Ropey Pilot]

Not flying for airlines myself, but as far as I know...

I believe that you are reffering to is (what I know as) cruise pilots. A long haul flight may have more than one crew, the second crew including the most junior member (may be called a second officer, but that phrase is entirely company specific) would operate for the middle portion of the flight.

I may be wrong but I would assume that this position is merely a stepping stone to 'first officer' status and is basically used as a temporary means of keeping the salary low for that pilot in the meantime. The quals would be a frozen ATPL(A).

I was also under the impression that these pilots were generally very young and a t the beginning of their careers and anyone who has had an oportunity to amass 9000 turbine rotary hours might be a bit old for the slot!

I do stand by to be corrected!

[Samuel Balmford]

Hi everyone, have just started learning to fly, and going for my ppl, as an engineer who's left work and going for a engineering degree and his pilots license can anyone tell me the route to sucess wether it be pilot or engineering ground crew and where to start really?

[pipertommy]

I,like many others have a dream of one day working for an airline (would love a nice regional t.p job).I am 28yrs of age have ppl/night 80hrs and starting IMC training within the next couple weeks.I plan to start CPL modular ground school(Bristol)about easter time!Once CPL training is complete i will be aiming to enroll on an instructors course to build hours and experience.One problem with this is my school results from 14 years ago!Studied for Scottish standard grades,english 4/D science 3/C geography 3/C tech studies 4/D and i have been going to night school for two months to improve my maths grade,which i have been getting A`s on all homework!I joined the fleet air arm at sixteen and served for six years around the world.Would these school grades put off airlines when looking at my c.v on selection? Considering i would have passed CPL training? (also have predicted result in maths of B)Sorry for my life history,but this is playing on my mind!:O PLEASE HELP!

[PA28R]

Hello mate i think there shouldnt be any problems with your grade well look if airline need pilot they will take anyone i know my mate he did his training in florida jar approved and he had 260hr tt and atpl with ir offcourse and he applied to easyjet and they calle dme for intervoew and now that lucky git is second officer so mate dnt put ur hopes down just try ur best and u will get there eventually, but normally airlines are more conserened about age limits and **** i am not sure about that.

[pipertommy]

Thanks for the reply! Seems no one wants to answer my post :(

[Willy Miller]

I know a guy with two CSE's (remember those!) and he's a Dash 8 training captain.

Enjoy the flying, work hard, take an interest in the people and industry and try not to be distacted by all the moaning.
Say Hi to Martin Barnes. I did my flying scholarship at BFC too many years ago!

Regards

WM:ok:

[pipertommy]

Will do!That is music to my ears.Cheers.So i would`nt be looked down on by training providers when i apply for CPL course?

[Willy Miller]

Training orgs don't care so long as you can pay!
Don't know about CTC scemes etc. I hour built then CPL/IR upgrade.
Do research on the courses and travel around and talk to some studes, don't just go for the cheapest, you might end up sat on backside more than flying because the only twin is u/s
And don't pay too much up-front. I did my CPL/IR with SFT who seemed a good organisation, but went bust (after I'd finished)
Did some ground school at BFC and have found them to be excellent.

PM me for any other info

(getting payed to fly still brings a smile to my face! sad but true)

[pipertommy]

Thanks again!More than likely i will pm you very soon with some questions.Cheers:O

[strus181]

Hello,

I'm a fairly new pilot wondering what is the best route to take to build time. I have a CPL/Mulit IFR in Canada with 250hrs. I also have two Passports (Canada / Poland). If i wanted to work in europe what are my best choices and what should i expect?? What should i be expecting for a starting wage as well?? Willing to do just about any job that includes me building time.

[strus181]

The above post is for work in Europe

[Boingy]

If you want to work in Europe you'd probably need to convert to a JAR license, if you haven't already.

You might try traffic watch or simple ad hoc seneca chartering... ? You could do parachute dropping (although you would be unlikely to get paid for this it is a way to build twin time), however, still being only a mere PPL holder just simply write or visit as many companies as you can, try and get work at home before taking the plunge of migrating...?

[A320rider]

I am asking myself the same question:


I'm a fairly new pilot wondering what is the best route to take to build time. I have a CPL/Mulit IFR in Europe with 250hrs. I also have two Passports (Europe / Canada). If i wanted to work in Canada what are my best choices and what should i expect?? What should i be expecting for a starting wage as well?? Willing to do just about any job that includes me building time.

[J Lieber]

No Wonder you can't get a job, on the 1st of March you wrote that you had "over 2000 hours experience". If your struggling with basic numeracy I would suggest a swift career change and while your at it hand in your membership for this website which proves to be a useful tool for many people other than yourself who clutters the space with utter drivel.

Fly away idiot, for the safety of others not under your command.

[ChocksAwayUK]

Hmm.. I'll just don my dearstalker and point out the unusual use of the "double question-mark" (??) - where else have I seen that Watson?

I am asking myself the same question

No sh1t!
Rochonner, you are a legend.

[Thistle82]

I'd agree with J Lieber- there does seem to be something odd going on here.

As an experienced pilot with apparently over 2000 hours A320rider must know more about wages etc. than most posting on this forum.

After all, (s)he never usually seems shy to give his opinion?

[strus181]

Thanks for the info, i'll probaly instruct back home for a couple years and then move my butt over to europe :ugh:

[Lembrado]

181

That sounds wise. Instructing is great for building experience and reinforcing first principles - it also makes one more humble and less cocky (me anyway). In any case regular flying is good for ones morale.

Whatever you do, try to enjoy it. Good luck.


L

[hepcat13]

**I've posted this same message at others boards and sections, I'm re-posting here to see what people on this board or section can add.

After reading a lot about flying careers, hearing stories of others, and reluctantly giving up on the military flying route because of age, I came up with a plan to fly for a major, cargo, or international airline in six years. I just wanted to know, form the experts, if my plan was feasible or realistic. Here it is:

-I am currently 28 (turning 29 in June 2006), and I'm prior enlisted in the military and currently working for the US Air Force in civil service and have a B.S. in Business from NYU with a very high GPA and Zero filght hours.
-I plan on starting flight training with Edwards AFB Aero Club in May and within a year earn at least my commercial, single engine, instrument rating by May of 2007.
-Beginning in Summer of 2007, I will attend the Advanced Airline Training Program at Flight Safety Academy in Vero Beach, FL. There I get multi-engine rating, line operations experience, advanced simulator training in level "D" ERJ-145 Full flight sim (EFIS-FMS equipped), in a mock Part 121 training environment with required performance at ATP level. While enrolled in that program (and after passing the interview), students receive a conditional offer of employment for a FO position in a regional airline, because of agreements in place with their partners (ASA, TSA, ExpressJet, or American Eagle). Hopefully I get Expressjet, but anything will do.
-After almost a year of training at Flight Safety, I will begin work at the regional. Then after about three or four years of building hours and experience on low pay I plan on applying to a major, cargo, or international airline such as Cathay Pacific or Emirates as a FO or SO (Which, I was told by a 777 pilot for Emirates, is hiring a ton of pilots at the moment, and I love Dubai).
-I will relocate anywhere to get a job. I also love the life of travelling everyday, living out of hotels, and also actually prefer being domiciled outside of the US (which, from my Air Force experince, is nothing new).
-So I will be 34-35 by the time I'm at a major and will have 25 years left for my Pilot career.

Does this sound do-able? Or am I insane. Also is this realistic, or is there a better way? Please let me know before I undertake this long journey. Thanks in advance.

**Plus this was a reply to questions after posting on other sites:

Thanks for the dose of reality. I came up with this plan thinking I was based in reality because of all the stories I've read about and personal experiences pilots I know relayed to me about reaching the majors in shorter periods of time. But all of the stories must have either been bogus or the people were extremely lucky. So now I'm thinking, to make the majors (if ever), it would take more like 10-12 years, most likely more.

On a side note, all the training I will receive past PPL, because of my service to our country, will be paid by the VA Gi Bill (including Flight Safety). Also I paid for my undergrad education with a combination of active duty tuition assistance and student loans, which I have already paid off. So none of the training costs will come out of pocket. If this is the case, is it still not worth it?

Also, I wanted people to know I have dreamed of being a pilot ever since childhood, so pay and prestige is not what I'm after (but it would be nice of course). So if I ended up working at a reqional for the rest of my career, I would still be ecstatic, as long as I am a proffessional pilot.

In regards to what I would do if the regionals were not hiring, and I had to wait around for a class date, I have an open job offer at Patrick AFB in Cocoa Beach, FL near Flight Safety in my current career field that pays well that I could take while waiting.

Also, because of my edcuation in Business and Finance, I have studied quite a bit on the state of the Airline industry, and I understand very well that it is not in good shape (domestically anyways). But it doesn't scare me, because if I ever lost my job in the airline I would always have my B.S. to fall back on and also, although not preferable, I could transfer to the "Dark Side" of the industry with my degree.

On the issue of training, I would love to train at the Aero Club because it is near my home and there are good Air Force people there but a problem exists because of the limited number of planes and instructors. To get all the neccessary ratings it would take a very long time, perhaps even long breaks in between ratings. Also the GI Bill won't give me as much money to train at the Aero Club as opposed to Flight Safety (where I would receive money for housing and living expenses also because it is a full time institution).

Anyways, thank you very much for the constructive criticism, and please keep it coming. So far, after hearing your comments, I am thinking Flight Saftey may not be the right path. Also I may have to give up on the idea of retiring after a long career in the airlines because it looks like it will take a very long time (if ever) for me to get a job with any sort of pension plan. Maybe I should just do this as a hobby or plan on working for the regionals in the far future after many years as a CFI. Any more comments would be appreciated.

**Sorry for the length, I'm just very hungry for info. Thanks

[A320rider]

34-35 years old, and 25 years of career in front of you.

I can get a 21 years old boy with 45 years of career in front of him

Sorry, but you are already out of Business.(OOB)

I am OOB too!:{

[Send Clowns]

A320, as usual, points out the flaws in his own argument without realising it. He doesn't want to fly unless he gets a big shiny jet in a prestigious company, so only wants towork for the guys who expect their pilots to stay for their entire career. Most emplyers of junior pilots know that they are a stepping stone to the bigger airlines for most of their recruits, so are quite relieved by someone who might stay 25 years!

[Jumbo744]

i think that yes it is realistic (but i'm still a 22y/o wanabee).
Just go for it :ok:

[zooloflyer]

You're completely self explaining man - you've got all it takes - the will, limited financial risks, an alternate - just have to do it!

No doubt, you should have started yesterday. Good luck:ok:

[Bluesleep]

I must agree with Zooloflyer completely!
As much as I enjoy A320Riders unstoppable pessimism, I believe that there will always be companies out there that values personal maturity a great deal. It will be more important that you have the right attitude and will be a low risk pilot to train rather than the idea that you will be there for 40 years.

About your flight training, let me put it like this, I have not once looked back on my flight training with regret, and I was out of the cockpit for three years. Since you get to do this with little or no financial risk I would say that it would be foolish not to pursue this path. Most pilots will tell you the same. I believe that with your realistic outlook it will be very rewarding for you.

About your flight training facility, If I would get my flight training at FSI paid for by the GI bill I would be there yesterday! They are one of the most professional training institutions in the world!

About your age. I don't know too much about the situation in the states, I do know however that two of my friends over there just got hired at the tender age of 34 and 36. One of them went to AirTran after a few years at TSA and the other to FedEx.

To start flight training can be a hard decision to make, but you seem to have the right attitude and insight, I would say that you should go with your gut feeling. If you don't you will probably end up thinking of the things that could have been.

All the best to you.

[Rory81]

Hi all, after days of seeking and browsing I decided to post here and hopefully get some good advice.

I just finished my integrated JAA fATPL training (CPL + ME/IR + MCC) 180TT. I hold both EU and US passport, so i have the right to work at both sides of the atlantic, fact that gives me a few options now. I'm lucky to have cash available to continue my training, but I wonder what would be the best option...

Afaik i'd have to convert my JAA to FAA in order to work in the states, and i wonder if its worth to go there and do some timebuilding in single piston engines, get back to EU and look for a regional job here, some self sponsored program, stay on the US and try to fly twins for a little company, aim for the regionals there, try on eastern europe, asia... i have to say that the flight instructor way is not very appealing for me. I'd like to stay close to europe if possible, but obviously for a lowtimer almost "anywhere" is ok as long as its safe, anyway I suppose the best place to start in my case is the US.

I dont want to start a debate about SSTR. I'd very much like to grow in experience going from little to medium to large airplanes, but having to pay for timebuilding, then converting to FAA, looking for jobs there, staying in the US wich means more time and money... i wonder if at the end it would be better to pay 50.000€ to obtain a type rating and be bonded to a company for 3/4 years knowing that you'll work there and after you get back the money invested you'll have a job and possibilities all around the world.

Any thoughts on all this? what's your advice for me?

Thanks a lot
Rory

[Jinkster]

do the instructor rating to keep flying....

[Finals19]

My 2 cents worth for you:
Jinkster's advice is a possible option. That said, if you have an option to get some multi engine line experience somewhere else in the world and then come back to Europe, that type of experience may be more appealing to a European employer (and that is all I am saying in fear of opening a can of worms!)

I did the opposite to you. I came to Canada with the right to work here, did a Canadian CPL ME/IR and am now going back to the UK to convert it back. In three years here since qualifying I have now managed to acquire nearly 1100hrs of which over 800 is multi piston line experience, nearly half of that multi PIC. What I am saying to you is that if you can get a job in the US with fairly low hours and build some multi time in a commercial op then you must do it if your means allow. A couple of years experience and some quality time will give you a big advantage when you return to the UK to apply for work. If it was turbine time that would be even better, but MEP works too.
Good luck...:ok:

[dartagnan]

go to the US and fly there.Converting is easy and cheap and will take 3-4 weeks.
I did my license in the USA and converted here in UK to save some cash.
more chance to get a job in USA(even bad paid) if US citizen and maybe join a corporate.

you have lost lot of money by doing a EU license first(specially for a US/EU citizen) and there are more opportunities in the USA on small/medium aircraft.

[aircockroaches]

So after all it is all possible to do FAA CPL and FAA ME-IR in USA then easily convert them to JAA CPL and JAA ME-IR.

I also would like to work in turboprops or small aircraft, would the USA offer me more that opportunity?

Thanks.

aircockroaches