View Full Version : F3 Belly Landing! (Merged)
RCOV 2 ENG
5th Dec 2003, 05:19
Late this afternoon on runway 27 at Leu, a 56(R)Sqn Tornado F3 made a gear up landing at Leuchars. I don't know any more at the moment, but i hope the crew got out safely!
artyhug
5th Dec 2003, 05:24
The Beeb claims they were indeed all fine and I certainly haven't heard any different.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3292551.stm
So come on spill the beans, who was it. I can't be bothered to call the boys and find out who it was. Plus it takes a long time for news to reach this abandoned devils island.....:{
RCOV 2 ENG
5th Dec 2003, 06:39
artyhug
sorry i don't know any names.................
about devils island...............................>>>>>>>>
just make sure though that you are there on saturday!
as when i was there no-one stayed !
and listen to the M.C.!!!!!
best night on the island!!!!!!!!!
minzastella
:ok:
MrBernoulli
5th Dec 2003, 07:05
In the above BBC story they quote an RAF spokesman as saying that "All aircrew train for exactly this emergency although it is a very unusual event....". Really? I thought that the pointy FJ types preferred the Martin Baker option to landing with no wheels. Has this been done before with any of the current FJ fleet?
On my fleet (large multi-jet transport) we use the sim to practice ditching (with wheels up of course) and variations on not having ALL the gear down but I don't recall ever practicing a complete wheels-up.
Anyway, well done to the lads who pulled this one off!
cortilla
5th Dec 2003, 07:08
just heard on the news that the RAF spokesman said 'they crew had the option of dumping the aircraft in the north sea, but they decided to bring it home instead' or something along those general lines. good jaarb boys:ok:
insty66
5th Dec 2003, 08:58
An Italian tried it a Whattabore years ago albeit in advertently but he pulled back too hard and never got back up All crew safe as I recall:ooh:
First the Wadddo incident now this What next? they do say these things come in threes
Double Hush
5th Dec 2003, 13:36
Insty 66
Waddo Incident? Please tell more.
Ahhh...
That'll teach me not to look ahead! Just seen a later thread and now understand.
Flt Lt Spry
5th Dec 2003, 15:39
Found this link:
http://www.scottishinformer.com/news/gaylord_stacks_jet.html
"An RAF pilot landed his plane at Leuchars today BUT FORGOT TO PUT THE WHEELS DOWN. The pilot, Rogers, 38, formerly of Yemen, now Fife said, 'Normally it's one of the things I check before landing. But today I just forgot...'"
"A spokesman said, 'RAF pilots often forget to put the wheels down but sometimes they don't come down anyway. This pilot should be praised as he managed to steer clear of the local school before landing at nearly 700mph WITH THE WHEELS UP.'"
"The co-pilot, who sits in the back seat and isn't actually a pilot, walked away from the wreckage unscathed."
Aliens62
5th Dec 2003, 16:34
I have just seen the following report on the Sky News website;
CRASH JET CREW SAFE
An RAF crew was forced to land a Tornado jet without wheels after a mid-air scare during a training exercise.
The pilot and co-pilot issued a Mayday after discovering they were unable to lower the undercarriage.
The crew burned off excess fuel to lighten the load of the jet and reduce the speed at which it had to travel in order to land.
At the same time ground staff at RAF Leuchars, Fife, launched the base's station emergency plan.
Rescue Sea King helicopters from RAF Boulmer in Northumberland and the Royal Navy rescue flight at Gannet, Prestwick were scrambled.
On the ground fire, rescue and medical teams were put on stand by.
The Tornado landed on its underside on the main runway travelling at just under 200 mph.
The two-man crew stepped out apparently unhurt and were taken for a routine medical examination.
An RAF spokesman praised the crew's response.
He said: "They did a very professional job to get themselves and the aircraft down safely.
"All aircrew train for exactly this emergency although it is a very unusual event."
Obviously pleased to see that the crew got out safely and without injury.
Anybody got any more info on what happened?
Also, I am not a pilot, but do work in the industry, and find a landing speed of ' just under 200 mph' a little excessive, even for an aircraft with problems. Does this sound right to you guys who do the driving, or is this a bit more artistic license from the Journo's??
Mr C Hinecap
5th Dec 2003, 16:55
Probe after RAF Jet Crash-Lands
By Louise Gray, Scottish Press Association
The RAF launched an investigation today after a Tornado was forced to land without any wheels.
The crew of the F3 air interceptor managed to walk away unhurt last night despite landing the jet on its belly during a training exercise.
Now engineering staff at RAF Leuchars, where the jet touched down at just under 200mph, are looking at the aircraft to see what went wrong.
An expert group from South Wales was also due to carry out an investigation into the incident.
The pilot and co-pilot issued a Mayday around 5pm after discovering they were unable to lower the jet’s undercarriage.
The crew dumped fuel in the North Sea to lighten the load of the jet and reduce the speed at which it had to travel in order to land.
At the same time ground staff at RAF Leuchars in Fife launched the base’s station emergency plan.
Rescue Sea King helicopters from RAF Boulmer in Northumberland and the Royal Navy rescue flight at Gannet, Prestwick, were scrambled.
On the ground fire, rescue and medical teams were put on stand-by.
The Tornado landed on its underside on the main runway at at 5.30pm, travelling at just under 200mph.
The two-man crew stepped out apparently unhurt and were taken for a routine medical examination.
An RAF spokesman praised the crew’s response.
He said: “They did a very professional job to get themselves and the aircraft down safely.
“All air crew train for exactly this emergency although it is a very unusual event.”
The airfield was closed but will reopen when the aircraft has been removed and the area swept for debris, the spokesman said.
The aircraft was from 56 Squadron, the operational conversion unit (OCU), at Leuchars where pilots undergo final advanced training before joining a squadron.
Sounds a bit better than forgetting!
Bl00dy glad they got it back - as long as the SEngO can strip it for spares it will be worth it!
Well done that man.
Roghead
5th Dec 2003, 18:13
Re Flt Lt Spry post and his Scottish Informer link-unfortunately it doesn't work which is a great pity as I would love to read their full and clearly well informed report of this incident.
It's journalism of this quality that makes us all proud of the nation's media services.
Keep smiling.
sprucemoose
5th Dec 2003, 18:29
"An expert group from South Wales was also due to carry out an investigation into the incident."
Which one - Stereophonics, Manics or Super Furry Animals?!
Well done guys; top belly flopping!
:D
more likely 200 km/h ?
specs advise normal landing speed = 115 kt or 213 km/h or 132 mph
e.g. .....
http://www.ftk.dk/english/ampletrain02/TORNADO_english.htm
cheers ..... hobie
ps .......
BBC also saying 200 mph ......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3292551.stm
Norman Stanley Fletcher
5th Dec 2003, 19:39
I used to be on Tornado GR1/4s (ground attack version) but have flown about 100 hours on the Tornado F3 which is almost certainly the variant involved here. I cannot remember the exact speeds (last flight 1995) but my memory of the GR1/4 was that the basic approach speed calculation began at about 145 knots and if I remember correctly the F3 was a little higher than that. You then have to make allowances for fuel, stores etc and we always made approaches around about 152 - 157 knots. 157 knots is just over 180 mph so if the F3 is a little faster then an approach speed of just under 200 mph is not far off the truth.
Now what I do remember is that if the wings were stuck fully back (63° or 67° depending on variant) instead of fully forward (25°) then it was possible to have an approach speed in excess of 200kts (230mph). Fortunately I do not know of any case where that scenario arose for real but it was practised regularly on approach without actually landing. Now that would have been an interesting landing!
Unwell_Raptor
5th Dec 2003, 19:43
I am slightly surprised that it was considered safer to land gear up rather than take the Martin-Baker option. But I suppose that was still available as a backup if it all went wrong.
yachtpilot
5th Dec 2003, 19:47
NSF...I was wondering about the comment regarding training for ''Exactly this event...'' Do you ? If so how and apart from the obvious fact that you don't call three greens what else is involved ?
The Nr Fairy
5th Dec 2003, 20:03
Roghead:
The reason the link doesn't work is cos it's a spoof.
I suspect Flt Lt Spry lives somewhere northern, and does stuff with pointy things . . .
Think how much we taxpayers have saved not paying for search and salvage to investigate the problem. Medals for the crew.
Nineiron
5th Dec 2003, 20:17
I am not familiar with the Tornado systems but could a failure (hydraulics?) that prevented lowering the gear also leave the aircraft in a clean configuration that require higher approach and landing speeds?
Roghead
5th Dec 2003, 20:44
OK so I bit... and I thought I was too old to swallow. Mind you the report would do some of our "popular" daily papers proud.
Well done to the crew-been there myself and its only funny afterwards.
Keep smiling.
Ali Barber
5th Dec 2003, 21:48
Same thing happened in the early 90s at Coningsby, also an OCU jet. Back then, there was a bit of FOD in the gear handle that shorted out the main system and a leak in the emergency system so no gear available. The F3 is ideal for belly landings with such a flat underside and planned wheels up landings are catered for in the FRCs. On that occasion there was hardly any damage - and I've still got the arrestor hook bracket as a souvenir!
Norman Stanley Fletcher
5th Dec 2003, 22:16
yachtpilot:
The 'exact event' I referred to was the swept wing approach and not the gear-up landing. This was done by carrying out approaches and low overshoots in the particular configuration as part of the regular cycle of 'BTRs' (Basic Training Requirements). Apologies for the confusion!
We did have a specific drill for landing with gear unsafe, and there were a number of scenarios that would have resulted in a pre-meditated ejection. The one that comes to mind was if one main gear was stuck up and one was stuck down as clearly there was a danger of the aircraft cartwheeling on landing. We had a very good simulator which although very realistic lacked visuals, so the final stages of an approach could not be recreated. This is in contrast to a number of airline simulators I have subsequently flown which have the ability to recreate wheels-up landings including slewing the aircraft on the runway and graunching noises!
NigelOnDraft
5th Dec 2003, 22:18
<<Think how much we taxpayers have saved not paying for search and salvage to investigate the problem>>
Errr.... but depending on the damage, we have "committed" the taxpayer to now mending the damn thing! Which may be a lot more than any investigation - depends how many F3s we have over "budget"...
<<Medals for the crew>>
So long as the reports are true.... absolutely.
<<I am slightly surprised that it was considered safer to land gear up rather than take the Martin-Baker option>>
The MB letdown always sounds a good idea, until confronted with a pre-meditated ejection. At that point, you'll try to find any other way to deal with the problem.
It is a fact that many aircraft have made unintentional wheels up landings, usually with more damage to someone's pride than the airframe. A Tonka has a nice flat belly... just the problem of getting it flat onto the runway and hands around the handle if it goes off sideways <G> Piccy's will be interesting...
NoD
White Horse
5th Dec 2003, 22:33
I remember a Jag landing wheels up at Laarbruch Germany in the 70s.Nice flat belly ,very little damage, repaired and flying again in days.Likewise a Bucc at Leuchars late 70s I think.Inspite of the round bomb door fuel tank, the a/c landed with again little damage. As for the Tornado, a nice wide flat belly should make for little damage.The comment regarding costing more than an inquiry, I think you will find the previous poster meant it is cheaper because an inquiry into a crash means the a/c is a total loss
Some pictures of the previous incident at http://www.tornado-data.com/Misc/mishaps.htm
I was told it was at Cottesmore, is that correct?
Gainesy
5th Dec 2003, 23:03
Two threads on this have just been merged, in case you are confused. Like what I was.
just like to add that a night bang-out into the North Sea at this time of year is not an option I'd like to contemplate. Well done the crew.
NoseGunner
5th Dec 2003, 23:09
Just to add a few facts:
Approach speed in 25 Wing, full flap is 150kts (plus a bit if you have extra fuel)
An F3 has been landed in 67 wing - at Leuchars about 4/5 years ago. Approach speed is (I think) 217kts. Overrun cable definitely required!
Beeayeate
5th Dec 2003, 23:16
Can they make a foam runway at Leuchars? :ouch:
PAXboy
5th Dec 2003, 23:59
Todays' article from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3295141.stm) contains a small pictures. It appears to show that they only foamed the machine as it came to rest, rather than a whole blanket. But the picture is small.
This article names the crew as: Flight Lieutenants Simon Grieve and Graham Harvey. Flt Lt Grieve had only eight hours' flying time on type made the landing.
Postman Plod
6th Dec 2003, 00:01
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3295141.stm
BBC have put a pic of a rather sad tornado sitting on the runway. Looks like is stopped pretty quickly, as it doesn't look like its passed the runway interection (although if the pic was taken from a long distance (the perimeter fence) then it could be quite deceptive!
Navy_Adversary
6th Dec 2003, 01:02
I seem to recall that about 8 years ago a Tornado GR1 made a wheels up landing at TTTE RAF Cottesmore, not sure what the reason was:8
Rhino power
6th Dec 2003, 02:03
Heard an interview with the crew this evening on the radio, Fl Lt Grieve mentioned he had only been flying the F.3 for about three weeks having crossed over to pilot from navigator, interestingly he also said that in his last sim ride he had practised this exact type of emergency!
-RP
Ali Barber
6th Dec 2003, 02:17
The drill for a wheels up landing in an F3 is for a mid-flap approach that adds about 10 knots to the threshold speed but puts the aircraft in a very flat attitude. Provided the aircraft is settled onto the ground gently, there shouldn't be too much damage apart from some skin panels need replacing and a few bits of other hardware. Not diffficult or expensive to repair and much better than a Martin Baker letdown. In fact, they would have been in trouble if they had jumped out because the F3 is cleared to land wheels up. The only potential problem is a crosswind that takes you off the runway after the rudder loses control effectiveness. The wing tip is not far from the ground and it might dig in and flip the aircradt if you're on the grass. In my case, we agreed that the Nav would command eject us out if the aircraft started to go near the edge of the runway. What we didn't realise was that operating the crash bar to kill the enmgines and operate the fire extinguishers also cut off the intercom. Caused a moments excitement as we turned a little and I didn't want to be fired out with full rudder on and one thigh off the seat. Stopped OK in the end not too far from the centre-line.
Flap62
6th Dec 2003, 02:56
Undoubtably these chaps did a fine job (especially the new chap) but people posting about "martin baker letdowns" are probably (mostly) doing so with a non FJ back-ground. Lets face it - gear ups happen fairly frequently and what happens - jack it up, change a few panels and she's good to go. It doesn't often end up in rivulets of aluminium all over the main. It is much easier to consider a challenging approach than pulling the handle.
As for the talk of "didn't they do well, they deserve a medal", yes they did marvellously but lets not go down the American route. They were only doing their job, even if it was very skilfully. One of the great strengths about our armed services is that we've always done the most extraordinary things and shrugged it off as being part of the service.
Memetic
6th Dec 2003, 03:03
Looks like is stopped pretty quickly, as it doesn't look like its passed the runway interection
According to the video interview they took a mile to stop.
The Jaguar Fan Club
6th Dec 2003, 06:39
Any emergency that has a happy ending is the kind of news we like to hear! Well done Si and Harvs! I'm sure it wasn't just a pint of water required after that one!! :p
Si, good to see you got your crossover man! Must catch up for a sherbet or two soon!!
Cheers
TJFC
:ok:
whisperer
6th Dec 2003, 06:40
see what happens when you put a nav in the front seat :D
seriously, job well done Grievesie :ok:
mickjoebill
6th Dec 2003, 18:23
quote from Navigator
"clattering down the runway like a tea tray"
Mickjoebill
Whippersnapper
6th Dec 2003, 23:11
Good effort, Grievie!
Lost touch after our course at Linton. If you're reading this, send me a PM to get in touch. Cheers.
Just come from the thread on Aircrew notices. Interesting comments there...not sure if I should have even responded to them. Can someone have a look at it and give me a response to what is being said there.
Nice work Grievie, now if only you had moving nozzles instead of moving wings it would have been less of a drama :D
Speak to you soon mate.
soddim
8th Dec 2003, 02:35
STS - you were right on. Hard to believe the children on the aircrew notices thread. Bout time they eased up on the lager before work tomorrow.
radar707
8th Dec 2003, 02:51
All credit to the crew for this one, a job well done :ok: :ok: :ok:
Being a humble civvie ATCO, forgive my ignorance, but what is a "Martin-Baker letdown?"
I am assuming from previous posts that it is ejecting and "Martin Baker" inveted the ejector seat hence the name, but I'm no doubt wrong.
In addition to the Italian IDS wheels-up, I remember that a TTTE British GR1, crewed by an Italian and a German (I think) did a wheels-up at Coningsby in the early 1980s. The aircraft was subsequently repaired and returned to service.
I think the TTE event at Coningsby referred to was actually a complete cock-up. One pilot trying to stop and the other trying to go - your guess who was doing what!
Wee Jock
9th Dec 2003, 19:54
I remember returning Coningsby's runway to service after that little episode, we chiselled off the bits of metal welded to the blacktop. Seem to recall someone saying that it was the second time the pilot had done it.
:ooh: :) :ooh:
gearontheglide
11th Dec 2003, 07:51
I was in Connigsby ops that day.
After the crew "stepped" out of the jet, they came up to Ops for a bit. The Italian stude ( a Lt Col if memory serves) sat in a corner with head in hands....
" ees a my first crash. I go straight back to Italy. I never fly again"
German Instructor Pilot consoles him......
"Do not vorry. I hav crashed 3 times and I am still flying!!!!!" :E