View Full Version : Should the Guvnor Quit Pprune ?

27th Aug 2001, 15:52
Not really an Aviation question I know, but with 2590 posts and counting, and opinions on all aviation matters that seem to get under the skin of many the “Systems Monitors” who cross his path I think the question needs to be asked.

As an avid Pprune reader and infrequent contributor I have noticed recently that the Guvnor only has to submit a post to receive a tirade of abuse from members of the community he is commenting on. Obviously with interests and opinions in so many areas of aviation he cannot be an expert in all of them but perhaps some of the Pilots who are so quick to respond should also concede that they are probably only an expert on the Type they currently fly and soon after they move on to a new Type they will lose some of the detailed information, yet they can still comment on many subjects without the same amount of abuse.

Perhaps the debate on whether he is simply an Aviation expert playing Devils advocate to promote
discussion or that he is a misinformed Airline CEO with too much time on his hands and some sort of grudge against the rest of the Airline industry should start here.

Finally, I’d like to say, I have not met and do not know the Guvnor this thread is simply to start a debate on the subject of free speech within Pprune without the need for flaming or degenerating another thread because the comments of one person.


27th Aug 2001, 16:46
No Viva,

I would hate Pprune to become a boring, sterile and elitist site........more contributions the better.

27th Aug 2001, 18:40
I can't believe this one has slipped past the monitors...

Guv's got my support..

27th Aug 2001, 19:01
No, he shouldn't!

27th Aug 2001, 19:13
Oh come on..!!

The Guvnor is one of the many interesting PPRuNe characters around here...

Be a very boring BB if everyone agreed with each other wouldn't you say!

Yak Hunt
27th Aug 2001, 20:33
No, Nicht, Nein, Neyat - the internet is about free expression for all.

27th Aug 2001, 20:35
Of course he should stay and continue to offer his opinions. They are exactly that. HIS OPINIONS.

I was hoping to get a response from some of his antagonists; I will not name them but take a look at the Guv’s thread on the “Air Transat Emergency Landing in Azores” over on Rumours and News… http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=015147&p= to get an idea of how the art of debate has been lost only to be replaced by cheap shots from anonymous opponents.

Let’s keep Pprune Professional.


27th Aug 2001, 21:24
Keep it up Guvnor!!

28th Aug 2001, 01:26
If an individual wants to quit PPRuNe, that is clearly a decision they are capable of making for themselves without "the question being asked".

The number of postings any member has made or the percieved validity of their opinion is seemingly irrelevant. It is of more concern if postings appear that are liable to cause problems to the site owners, or if postings are clearly libelous, contain profane or otherwise offensive language. In the example you cite that is not the case.

"Free speech" is always an emotive issue. The site owner and administrators have made it clear many times that if anybody wants to indulge in the less acceptable aspects of "free speech" they are welcome to set up their own web site and deal with any repercussions that may arise from that indulgence.

These boards welcome a wide range of contributors and opinions. They are very tolerant of most things with very few exceptions. The forums are subject to editorial overview, and contributors have to accept that.

I am of the opinion that this topic purports to debate free speech but singles out one individual unnecessarily. I dont believe it fits the forum and as a result I am sending it elsewhere.

Tricky Woo
28th Aug 2001, 01:46



28th Aug 2001, 03:18
I reckon he should stay.

Life would get very boring if nobody was prepared to be a little controversial from time to time.

Sorry did I say little?

Chatters :)

Lurk R
28th Aug 2001, 04:13
Guv - maybe you should have entered Big Brother - everybody seems to want you staying around!!! :D

28th Aug 2001, 06:42
Frankly if the Guv was going, it wouldn't make any difference to me. I don't read his post and don't find him funny anymore. Mr I have an opinion about everything got me going for a while but I now wonder why he hasn't an opinion about his achievements. Oh yeah his airline??? forgot about that one, well, when it will be real then I'll go away and hide. (but i m not that worried).

As for freeboot and the others, I was under the impression that the Guv was actually playing a double game.

Kermit 180
28th Aug 2001, 12:35
Is the future of a fellow PPRuNer something we should discuss? Perhaps if his posts were so disturbing then he'd be removed by the moderators. So, carry on Guv, as already stated, theyre your opinions so keep firing.


The Guvnor
28th Aug 2001, 13:18
Sniff! It's nice to be appreciated ... :o and I'd just like to say that whilst I try not to be deliberately combatative I do try to provide a different perspective from time to time. To mix my metaphors: when you're working at the coal face it gets very hard to see the wood for the trees. I couldn't have run my past and hopefully future airlines without pilots and I do appreciate (and often stand in awe of) the professionalism that the vast majority have.

Thank you all again.

28th Aug 2001, 14:42
Of course Guv should be allowed to stay. I've personally got no axe to grind with anybody here, but I know Guv's comments often
meet with howls of contempt (usu. from pro pilots).

Guv's standpoint clearly comes from the management/operational side of aviation and it is only natural that he will occasionally upset someone on the 'front line'. This is often the case in any industry.

Perhaps the airline pilots are right to criticise him sometimes, but maybe Guv induces their ire on occasion exactly because he has a good point, which may question their vested interests?

Either way, PPRuNE should be big and ugly enough to accommodate everyone (well almost).

WxJx ;)

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: WeatherJinx ]

Boss Raptor
28th Aug 2001, 15:38
Whilst I dont hold the view that The Guvnor should 'quit' Pprune I do believe;

That The Guvnor should spend his time/talents doing something more constructive and should also consider caution as his 'presence' and continuous pushing of his project no doubt can and is considered both unprofessional, shortsighted and 'flakey' in the eyes of many profesionals in the industry...

Guv take note...action and results speak louder than words!

28th Aug 2001, 19:54
Oh geez, here we go again! Why is it that someone decides to start a thread like this? It is not your job and about the only reason I believe this thread is still here is because the PPRuNe admins are in a generous mood. Couldn't you think of any other topic to post?

The last thread like this involved OCB and, while I hold my own opinions about him, I vehemently defended and supported his right to be here, for as long as PPRuNe management sees fit to have him here. The same is most certainly true in the current thread.

I don't know The Guv any more than I know OCB, but that doesn't matter. If "management" allows them to stay, then so be it ... end of story, IMHO!

Can we please put an end to this sort of insanity once and for all? If YOU are getting upset by his posts, then the answer is REALLY simple ... don't read his posts! Either way, I don't really care, except to say that PPRuNe - and JB in particular - exists so that those who have legitimate access can have their say.

That is what freedom of speech is all about. Now, can we get back to the more usual routine in JB of blowing off steam? I feel just soooo much better for having done that here!

Please, Guv, feel free to carry on being yourself, or anyone else that you want to be! :D

28th Aug 2001, 20:08
Can i stay too?

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: EGGD ]

Celtic Emerald
28th Aug 2001, 21:22
Very eh eloquently & eh diplomaticaly put Boss ;)

All I'll say there may be more to this subject that meets the eye. Whether this airline that seems forever in the pipeline is a realistic venture doesn't bother me. After all is the Internet reality? I also respect the fact that the Guv seems to know a fair bit about aviation but he does seem to have stood on a few peoples toes and upset & hurt certain people.

How about it Guv, make some amends??? You can fool people some of the time but you can't fool everybody all the time.

There's no smoke without fire!


Doctor Cruces
28th Aug 2001, 22:07
Let The Guvnor stay.

Reading the response to his posts makes a long, slow nightshift go much quicker!!!

Is his airline a pipedream? Who knows, but isn't everyone entitled to dream. It's just that everyone else seems to keep their dreams to themselves whilst Guv goes public.

We could debate the wisdom of this, but would it make any difference.

Some of the vituperation pointed at the Guvnor seems very personal and probably from someone (possibly multiple identities??) whom he has crossed swords with in an earlier incarnation and wishes him ill.

Not our problem and not nice to read, but that is no reason to omit him from these pages.

Like others before me, I do not know the Guvnor other than through these pages so I don't have an axe to grind either.

Doc C.

Boss Raptor
29th Aug 2001, 12:40
We all have dreams Doc - but when a project is just a 'dream' then others do not appreciate being told the project is 'real' and so get involved, spending a lot of time and money in some cases, for something that then turns out to be a 'schoolboy playing with his ego and his trainset'!

29th Aug 2001, 13:35
So, the problem is not so much with what The Guv posts but with some 'systems monitors' who can't articulate an argument... Where have I seen that before? How many times have I been told in this business, "If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't......" Whatever, I find your dreams illuminating, Guv. The foreword to T E Lawrence's 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' covers it nicely. Dream on. ;)

Swamp Rat
29th Aug 2001, 14:10
The Guv

You better hope that Who ! and Blowawayjet don`t find this thread, they
will have a field day :D :D :D


29th Aug 2001, 15:09

Doors to Automatic
29th Aug 2001, 15:17
I consider it the height of bad manners that one contributor to this forum is suggesting that another should leave. The only people that have the right to do this are the owners of the forum.

If you don't like what The Guvnor is saying then post a response - that is what free speech is all about. Or don't read his postings - simple!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

29th Aug 2001, 19:37
the guv is obviously a pprune addict!
let him get his fix :D

Boss Raptor
29th Aug 2001, 19:51
Well to be fair to 'Who' & 'Blowawayjet' they could well have very good professional reasons to be anti 'The Guv'...and I am sure they are not the only ones...

Maybe if the full picture was displayed many of you would change your views!

Celtic Emerald
29th Aug 2001, 20:19

I agree with Boss Raptor who's in a better position than most on this forum to comment on this subject. Alot of you don't know the full picture and if you did you might feel differently about this subject.

When I used to log on to PPRuNe in the beginning I was convinced that the Guv was some kind of bigshot and although I heard rumours I reserved judgement since I have never met the man in person. However I have spoken in length cyberally speaking to someone who knew him personally & had business dealings with him which confirmed the many rumours.

I have been concerned for a while that somebody naive and gullible might get hurt or taken in but I respect Danny and the other moderators judgement though I find it hard to see why there was one rule for Natterjack and one for the Guv regrading attending the bashes.

As far posting on PPRuNe, it does some with a big red warning about contributors might not be who they are pretending to be and to be careful & take things with a grain of salt. I feel in cyberspace the amount of harm a person can do is normally fairly limited & the Guv does start some very good threads and makes very many informative contributions. I also can see that he has a tremendous interest and passion for aviation and I'm sorry his dream however much he genuinely believed in it or well intentioned it was may not turn out to be viable, everyone has their right to their dreams and ambitions AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T HURT OTHER PEOPLE.

I would just ask him to search his conscience and get some help if he needs it.
Whatever the reason for his behaviour no-one has the right to judge or condemn, but those he has wronged have a right to be compensated, an explanation & an apology.


The Guvnor
29th Aug 2001, 20:40
No matter what Boss Raptor has been claiming to various people (such as Celtic Emerald) if he knows as much about the airline industry as he claims - and he'd better, or there are going to be some extremely upset people in Moscow shortly - then he should be in a position to judge for himself the viability of a project before he gets involved with it.

Just because it doesn't happen overnight, doesn't mean that it won't - and to say that the lack of huge amounts of progress means that something goes from being viable to a "schoolboy playing with his ego and his trainset" casts serious doubts on both his maturity and, much more importantly, his knowledge of the industry. Just because you read lots of books doesn't mean that you know how to do things - experience counts; as does the maturity not to throw one's toys out of the cot when they don't go as planned!

An operation such as this takes very serious amounts of money; and Boss Raptor's contribution to date - whilst greatly appreciated - has been a fraction of that put in by myself and others both in terms of cash and assumed liabilities.

30th Aug 2001, 02:01
As a practising psychologist and licensed pilot, I find The Guvnor (and his many alter egos, such as Lawyer Girl and Scarebus 321) a fascinating character. The Guvnor, with his delusions of grandeur and constant craving for attention, needs a forum like Pprune to survive. Without it, The Guvnor would just be manifesting his psychoses in other perhaps more harmful and less socially acceptable areas. So, please don't ban The Guvnor - he may display inadequacies, he may fail to articulate who he really is, and what he really feels - but he is vastly entertaining in his own unique way. Don't chastise him - please Luv the Guv.

30th Aug 2001, 05:05
I cannot believe i'm actually responding to this........


He has as much right to twist and bend fact or clown around, as much as I have not to read his post's and ignore him.

Let him stay. I've been here for quite some time and have seen alot of garbage post's. But hey....If you don't like what he says,

30th Aug 2001, 14:25
I luv The Guv!

.........glass houses...............stones. :D

Swamp Rat
30th Aug 2001, 23:03
I think he is a absolute plonker, who really
considers himself the knowitall of aviation.
**** off, a lot of us are tired of you :mad: :mad: :mad:

30th Aug 2001, 23:52
Fellow Ppruners,

Remember, " Who will cast the first stone" the Guv has as much right to his comments and opinions as the next member to post, if you dont like it, that what is called
" Tough Sh*t", Long may free speech and the members of Pprune converse with each other!
:D :D ;)

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Vfrpilotpb ]

31st Aug 2001, 00:37
Damn, much as it burns my butt, I have to say that The Guvnor, Ceilidh, Lawyergal, SAS23, or whatever he happens to call himself today should not be forced to leave any forum.
Sure he lies through his back teeth about everything he's ever done, or not done as the case may be (his latest fantasy is now claiming to have been a B707 captain on arms smuggling flights into the former Yugoslavia!).
Even though this individual has a habit of threatening BB owners and webmasters with litigation for postings made about him (none of which have ever progressed from threat), he should be allowed to post whatever he wants. Maybe some of the uninformed may not have seen this article: http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html - BTW another author threatened (but not swayed) by The Guvnor.
Not a credible aviator/aviation expert/anything really, but let him post.

The Guvnor
31st Aug 2001, 02:05
Who - sorry, Freenum, Freeboot, Napoleon etc etc ... I'd hate to see you not take the credit for your work ... you forgot to mention that you orchestrated that particular nasty little smear campaign! As for my threatening BB owners - find one!! Danny will confirm that I have never threatened him; and as for Ryo, well, that's a bit different. Will you be there to accept responsibility for your actions, or are you just going to continue to hide behind your anonymity?

Thought so! :D :D :D

31st Aug 2001, 19:20
You certainly have a short memory Guvnor/ Ceilidh/ Lawyergal/ Jetbok/ SAS23/ et al. You don't seem to remember posting libel warnings on this board, and then frantically claiming it wasn't meant as a threat. And Ryo forwarded all your threatening emails. Some very interesting reading.
I have been Freeboot & Freenum - but unlike you I have never had 2 ID's (or id's) running simultaneously, and have never been caught posting as 2 different people on the same thread! Get real buddy, I haven't tried to hide that Freeboot/F_boot/Freenum/Who? are the same person, you have been caught out lying on that score several times.
And as far as orchestrating smear campaigns, I'd love to think I had that much clout. Funny how the press, ex-collegues, ex-girlfriends, investigators, actual aviation experts, have all been able to discover exactly the same sordid things from your past that I have.
I'm still too busy laughing at your "I was a B707 mercenary captain" story. Hahahahaha

Sid's Stars
31st Aug 2001, 22:59
No, the Guv shouldnt quit Pprune. He's one of the most interesting people on here, and unlike some - eh Who? - isn't some chicken-**** coward that has to hide behind his anonymity. He's open and up front about who he is. He comes to Bashes and he meets with the guys... and all the ones I know say he knows what he's talking about.

I looked through Who?s past posts and you know what? EVERY ONE OF THEM was targeted at the Guv!! Its clear that if there's any sicko here that should be permanently banned from Pprune its Who?.

This guy is complete and utter scum and is exactly the sort of person we dont need or want on here. Danny - dump this guy!!!

1st Sep 2001, 02:33
As some guy in the U.S. said, "I have a dream," I hope it comes true for the Guv and that he uses his best Delta Connection to someday get his aircraft and be the new Freddie Laker of Scotland.

1st Sep 2001, 02:37
Who's on First.

1st Sep 2001, 11:33
If the Guv were banned, whom would be next?

Many pro pilots do NOT like what he has to say because these guys are too busy admiring themselves in the mirror. Airline companies exist to make profits (hope, hope) for their shareholders and not to provide cushy jobs for pilots. The pilots are needed to fly the aeroplanes, NOT to manage the company.
We will be sending our first aircraft to heavy maintenance next week and pilot recruitment will start shortly. You can bet your boots that I will NOT hire pilots who try to tell me how to manage the company.
The Guv has very good ideas and suspect that his airline will eventually materialize. Many pro pilots simply do not have the aptitude to do anything else except fly the aeroplane and try to belittle others with whom they have a different opinion.

So there!! :p

2nd Sep 2001, 00:16
The Guvnor should stay, I for one get a good laugh out of reading his posts!. His posts do need to be taken with a pinch of salt though, any time he has commented on both the UK airlines I am intimately connected with, he has been inaccurate in his information,(and that's being polite).
There are no doubt others using this board and similar ones spreading misinformation, thats a fact of the net. If any real damage is done then maybe a ban would be appropriate, until then keep em coming guv, I do enjoy a good laugh!

2nd Sep 2001, 13:11
I didn't know about his TWO different ID's.

Thats just childish.

GET RID OF HIM...(maybe for just 2 months :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Apollo ]

2nd Sep 2001, 14:12
I really must be missing something here. I've been all thru the rules of the forum ... nothing about banning somebody coz of how well or badly they interact in the real world. There's lots on the subject of flaming etc ... the sort of nasty sh!t that just sometimes :rolleyes: goes on in any BB.

Riddle me this ... if the Guv has broken any of Danny's rules, why has he not been banned? For those too blinkered to understand this ... it's clear to me that he hasn't broken the rules of this place. But, even if he has, it's not up to us, or any of us in any combination of agenda, to instigate that action.

Time to get a life and move on folks. This topic really HAS run its course. If it's made people like Who? feel better, I'm simply delighted... :rolleyes:

Next topic please...