PDA

View Full Version : Wireless 100 years ago today.


tony draper
12th Dec 2001, 15:36
One hundred years ago today the first wireless message was sent from Cornwall to Canada.
Another great invention us Englishmen gave the world. ;)

Desert Dingo
12th Dec 2001, 16:05
Umm...right. With a typical English name like Guglielmo Marconi; from an Italian father and an Irish mother. :confused: But from that small beginning you have gone on to give the world the Tele-tubbies. Maybe he should have been drowned at birth. :p

tony draper
12th Dec 2001, 16:14
Well I admit he did have a Italianish sounding name, but they didn't have electricity in Italy then, so he had to come to England to try out his kit.

Ps,We invented electricty as well. ;)

Desert Dingo
12th Dec 2001, 16:55
Errrr....No. Marconi's Italian mates Volta and Galvani got in first. I concede that your Faraday had a bit to do with electricity, but then he had help from the Americans Henry and that crazy kite-flying Franklin dude. :p

Four Seven Eleven
12th Dec 2001, 16:58
You mean Mark O'Nee wasn't Irish then? :D

tony draper
12th Dec 2001, 17:15
Nonesence just because some Frenchie tried to cook his lunch in a novel way that don't count.
Sacre ble!, mon deu,le frog, he iz not mort, merd!. ;)

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

BlueDiamond
12th Dec 2001, 18:01
Er ... oh, sorry, my mistake ... I thought this thread was about bras.

:o

tony draper
12th Dec 2001, 19:53
Bra's Oh yes we invented them also. ;)

Gainesy
12th Dec 2001, 20:10
Didn't Marconi invent spaghetti hoops? Or am I thinking of pizza?

tony draper
12th Dec 2001, 20:39
The safest bet if your a Brit, is to assume we invented everything, after all, you will be right 99%of the time. ;)

Tricky Woo
12th Dec 2001, 20:47
True enough, Herr Draper, true enough.

I believe the yanks have only ever invented one thing: the bra. Howard Hughes, you see. The insist on claiming the aeroplane, in the face of accumulating evidence that half the world were making longer hops than the Wright brothers, years before them. Thieving rascals keep claiming the computer, too. Pah, I say!

Can't think of anything those frog-eating chaps across the Channel ever invented. Probably something unpleasant like the Black Death, I should imagine.

TW

tony draper
12th Dec 2001, 21:14
Madam Guillotine of course, not as classy as as the British method of dancing the hemp horn pipe at execution dock, but much swifter and more civilised than that bloody electric chair.
Can't think of anything else. ;)

bblank
12th Dec 2001, 21:26
"One hundred years ago today the first wireless message was sent from Cornwall to Canada."

Um ... that message, which also was the first to be transmitted between any two points on opposite sides of the Atlantic, actually fell short of Canada, arriving in St. John's, NFLD. For a few days prior to that first message Marconi had been sending a string of Morse "S"s at three hour intervals. Over on the Newfie end of things there was great wonderment as to why the message "Screech badly needed by inventors of 99% of everything" could not be finished. It was finally realized that the transmitting chucklehead had a bad stuttering problem.

As all Canadians will know, Marconi's message arrived in St. John's exactly one half hour late.

bubba zanetti
12th Dec 2001, 21:36
"As all Canadians will know, Marconi's message arrived in St. John's exactly one half hour late."

Hehe ... too true !!

:D

tony draper
12th Dec 2001, 22:02
Hey Mr Z, my sister in law has bought me one of those Canadian fur caps with the foldy down ear flaps, been after one of them for years, Draper natural insulation is wearing a tad thin, just in time its been cold here the last two days. ;)
ps I know you lot haven't invented much, but this here bonnet, makes up for that lack. ;)

PaperTiger
12th Dec 2001, 22:57
Kerosene, the variable pitch propeller, the zipper and er.. instant mashed potato. :)

bubba zanetti
12th Dec 2001, 23:10
ahh .. Sgt. Draper of the Nothwest Mounted Police is it? .. I shall have to have you arrested for impersonating one of our Canadian Icons... I believe Disney owns the copyright so I would be careful ... and you aren't seriously going to wear that cap Tyneside? There must be a bylaw or two and at the very least, you will be splattered by blood from one of those animal rights activists over there ...

Inventions ... hmmmm ... I suppose the only true Canadian invention is opening a bottle of beer with one's teeth ... that coupled with the aforementioned zipper ... constitutes the bookends of passion and love in my estimation ... especially if one is wearing a fur cap at the time ... ;)

divingduck
12th Dec 2001, 23:20
Gee...English inventions??? :rolleyes:
I thought the Scots invented just about everything worthwhile in the UK?
At least thats the propaganda put forward up north!
Raincoats, the Bank of England, tarmac, steam engines etc etc...not to mention whiskey :D
Waits with bated breath for the "truth" :eek:

tony draper
12th Dec 2001, 23:32
Steam was invented on Tyneside as was the railway engine
A Geordie invented the railways, the Scots have tried to assimilate Geordieland on a few occasions, to no avail ,it has been necessary for us to go up there and punish them once or twice. ;)

bubba zanetti
12th Dec 2001, 23:36
I can just hear those Geordies now on their first railway excursion ...

"Gan canny or we'll dunsh summick.... Eeeh man, ahm gannin te the booza ! " :)


... :D

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: bubba zanetti ]

bblank
12th Dec 2001, 23:53
It is an article of faith in Canada that the zipper was invented in the Great White North. For instance, from the age of two I would be told by my mother "Pull up your zipper," to which she would proudly add, "It's a Canadian invention, you know." As I grew to maturity there was a girl of my acquaintance who would tell me the very same thing, but that sad story need not be told here. Back to the point, I suspect that we've been hosed. The zipper is generally attributed to a Yank (Whitcomb Judson) or a Swede (Gideon Sundback) who worked for aforesaid Yank. If any Canuck can explain why we may rightly claim the zipper's invention as our patrimony then please advise.

tony draper
13th Dec 2001, 00:02
The worlds foremost expert on Orangutangs is a a Canadian, Draper is not implying anything with that statement. ;)

PS Draper can no longer find the article that would prove that, so you will just have to take his word. ;)

Velvet
13th Dec 2001, 01:05
Actually when you say British – you really mean Scottish inventors and discoverers.

A few of which are logarithms, kaleidoscope, radar, mackintosh, themos flask, vacuum, steam engine, pneumatic tyre, television, anaethesia, telegraph, telephone, tarmac, adhesive stamps, electromagnetism, polarisation of light and not to forget whisky and golf. Oh, and a Scotsman apparently founded the US Navy.

Loki
13th Dec 2001, 01:16
Herr Draper:

I thought the first railway engine was invented by a bloke called Trevithick, from Cornwall (God help us)

You are however basically correct in that everything useful was invented by us in this sceptred isle....except the wine box which I believe comes from Australia.

Send Clowns
13th Dec 2001, 01:30
If the zip was invented by a yank then how come they can never get the name right?

tony draper
13th Dec 2001, 01:51
Draper is half Scotish in his mothers side ,fortunatly its the top half, so one is allowed to wear underkecks. ;)

radeng
13th Dec 2001, 13:05
The Scotsman Baird invented something called television. It had no relationship except in the name to what we know as television, which is really owed to Blumlein (English) and Zworykin (American?) However, it's a persistent myth that Baird invented television.

Americans did invent the transistor and the integrated circuit.

And I haven't heard of a Scotsman inventing a valve gear for steam engines!

henry crun
13th Dec 2001, 13:53
Point of order Mr Draper.
The French did not invent the guillotine,
that honour goes to the Scots quite some time before the frog eaters copied it.
The Scots called it the Maiden or Midden

rover2701
13th Dec 2001, 14:11
One and all can I interject here and inform you all that the wireless message sent by Marconi was not sent to Canada at all but to Newfoundland which was not part of Canada at the time. It was a Crown Colony ruled from the UK. Independence came just after WW2 when a referendum was held to see what the Newfoundlanders wanted to do ie Independance join with the USA or Join the Canadian federation. By a small majority they chose to join Canada. Ashort History lesson now over.

Bally Heck
13th Dec 2001, 14:14
Sour grapes Mr Radeng. Bit like saying Macaroni invented the radio, but he didn't invent digital FM stereophonic data transmission systems as we know them today.

He did invent the first television (mechanical) and went on to develop his invention electronically

Bally Heck
13th Dec 2001, 14:18
PS The transistor was invented by Bell Laboratories. And we all know where Mr Bell was born. He made a damned fine whisky too!! ;)

tony draper
13th Dec 2001, 14:18
I thought the maiden was one of them things like a mummy case with spikes on the inside.
Incidently we invented the Steam Turbine, Breach loading Gun and the first Iron Ship here on Tyneside,as well as the railway.
The first place to suffer from leaves on the line was Stockton.

Cornish Jack
13th Dec 2001, 14:25
Loki
Close - it was a ROAD locomotive acksherly. Nice commemorative statue in Camborne.
What's with the parenthetic appeal to the Almighty? :mad: Cornishmen damned near colonised the world - well the underground bits, anyway. :D

Tricky Woo
13th Dec 2001, 14:59
Can someone remind me where Cornwall is? I keep forgetting.

TW

tony draper
13th Dec 2001, 16:23
Cornwall also devised the Pasty, my baker sells splendid traditional ones.
Draper also really fancied commiting acts of gross indecency with Demelza Poldark, and she was a Cornish lass. ;)

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

radeng
13th Dec 2001, 16:49
Now Mr Heck, come off it! Baird had nothing to do with the development of electronic television. Additionally, his system was so totally different to the electronic variety, involving rotating mirrors and a necessarily limited definition, that only the name is common.

Strangely enough, the work done by the Marconi-EMI teams proved very useful in that fortuitously, there was some hardware in place for use in WW2 radar development.

BTW, the magnetron wasn't invented by a Scotsman - so they didn't invent everything.

tony draper
13th Dec 2001, 16:54
We Brits invented inventing. ;)

Who has control?
13th Dec 2001, 18:06
Marconi's message was intended for St. John's Wood, but he send it via Consignia.

Tricky Woo
13th Dec 2001, 19:04
Hi All,

We also invented the Law of Gravity, so shut it.

Must have been bloody inconvenient prior to Newton, what with people and rocks and stuff floating about all over the place. Helps to explain what happened to the dinosaurs, that does. Meteor? Hah! Without gravity it would have taken a bloody good shot to hit the earth at all. Methinks that all the floating dinosaurs had problems changing direction 'cos of inertia. Doomed, they were.

Newton also invented the Conservation of Momentum.

As any Ancient Greek would tell you, prior to Newton, bodies needed extra energy in order to keep going in any direction, otherwise they'd just grind to a halt. I reckon Newton has saved society and industry a fortune in energy costs for transportation, huh? Bicycles must have been crap up until then.

Talking about energy, the Conservation of Energy is something we Brits would rather not talk about... the fact was that fires used to burn a lot longer and brighter before that silly sod Newton insisted that energy should be fully conserved.

Rather bug8ered up the design for my perpetual motion power generator, that did.

While we're on the subject of Newton, we can add integral and differential mathematics. Those frog chaps next door try to claim one or other, but they have a long track record of plagarism, what with Cartesian maths, and all.

Meanwhile, another clever English bloke, called John Locke was writing this charming little essay called 'Concerning Civil Government'. Over one hundred years later, a traitorous British subject called Thomas Jefferson plagarised it outrageously, changed a few words here and there.

Always cheers me up, that one: the true author of the American Declaration of Independence was actually a loyal Englishman.

That's all from the 17th century, folks.

TW

bblank
13th Dec 2001, 19:12
None of your andramartins, now, Mr. 2701! I will overlook your overlooking reply #12. However, when you say "Independence came [to NFLD] just after WW2 when a referendum was held to see what the Newfoundlanders wanted to do ie Independance join with the USA or Join the Canadian federation. By a small majority they chose to join Canada. A short History lesson now over" I find myself dragged into this thread once again.

Newfies had, at first, three choices, not one of which was to join with the USA. The background was that Newfoundland was severely impacted by WWI debts and then the Great Depression. In the 1930's the British government set up a Royal Commission to study the NFLD problem. That commission recommended that NFLD abandon self-governance in favour of a ruling body appointed in England. That plan, offered on a five year trial basis, was called "Commission of Government" and it was one choice on the first referendum of 1948. The status quo choice, called "Responsible Government," was a second option. The proponents of this course did speak vaguely of an eventual economic union with the US but there never was a formal plan for any sort of relationship with the US and voters did not have that choice. Confederation was the third option that Newfies had.

In the first referendum Responsible Government received the greatest number of votes but not a majority. The least popular choice, Commission of Government, was dropped
from the ballot for the second referendum. Had the uninformed Newfies actually know that the Brits not only invented 99% of everything but even invented inventing then surely they would have voted otherwise. But history is filled with ironic accidents of that nature. Now unlike my native province where neverendums are neverending, the second Newfie referendum was definitive. They joined Canada and we have been eating cod with our instant mashed potatos ever since.

In any event, thank you for your suggestion. The vision of Joey Smallwood badgering Harry Truman has brightened my morning.

djk
13th Dec 2001, 19:26
while everyone has been debating who invented a popular spirit. You all seem to forget one thing.

whisky comes from Scotland
whereas
whiskey comes from Ireland

I just thought I'd point that out.

Velvet
13th Dec 2001, 22:45
Well Brian Blank, not sure why your mother thought it was a Canadian invention.

it was originally invented and patented by Elias Howe, inventor of the sewing machine, but he didn't take it any further - so it had to wait another 40 years before Whitcombe Judge invented a slighlty different version of the clasp locker, a rudimentary zip for shoes. It was called zipper by Goodrich company.

Incidentally, Canadian inventors have been responsible for quite a few inventions such as
anti-gravity suit for high altitude pilots
Basketball
Electric light bulb - Henry Woodward sold the patent to Edison
Portable film developing system - but Arthur McCurdy sold it to Eastman
Heart pacemaker
the first Jetliner
JAVA
Snowmobile
Television camera
Radio = a footnote to the first wireless message - Reginald Fessendon - who transmitted the world's first voice message in 1900. He refined this and in 1906 made the world's first broadcast of words and music. In 1920 vessels everywhere were using his depth sounder technology.

They were also responsible for inventing instant mashed potato and Trivial pursuit - but nobody's perfect ;)

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Velvet ]

tony draper
13th Dec 2001, 23:37
Miss Velvet the chap who invented the electric light bulb lived not one hundred yards from where Draper is sitting right now, one Joseph Swan, Even Edison was forced to admit that, the first house in the world lit by carbon filiment vacuumn bulbs is about a quarter of a mile away.
Not sure about the Jetliner thingy, Wasn't that the Dehavilland company and the Comet?.
A Canadian did discover Insulin, and another Canuck half of the structure of DNA .
And last but not least the worlds formost authority on Orangutans is a Canadian.

bblank
13th Dec 2001, 23:46
Velvet wrote "not sure why your mother thought it [the zipper] was a Canadian invention."

I know why. It is because she is Canadian. All Canadians know that the zipper is a Canadian invention. You can look it up! http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa090100a.htm

The mystery is why Canadians think that this Gideon Sundback fellow, a Swede working stateside, had anything to do with Canada.

And Velvet, lets keep that java thing to ourselves. True, James Gosling is another expat programmer, but he did concoct that witches' brew in California. Anyway, to my mind java's most important contribution is that it pi$$es-off the lads in Redmond.

As long as we are on the topic of java and Canada I may as well pass on the following link: http://java.sun.com/people/jag/Canada.html

No flames please from the Americans who have heretofore been kindly tolerating this thread: I am of mixed parentage and dual nationality. I am therefore allowed to insult myself.

Squawk 8888
14th Dec 2001, 00:56
Well, the telephone was a Canadian invention but Bell went to Boston to file the patent because the US had better protection for intellectual property. And let's not forget the paint roller, invented right here in YTZ.

I'm surprised nobody's yet pointed out that Marconi didn't invent radio, he just experimented with it. The real credit goes to the Serbian-American genius Nikola Tesla, who pretty much invented the whole twentieth century.

ORAC
14th Dec 2001, 01:15
Bell was, of course, born and bred in Scotland and home educated till ten. But if you want to claim something because of where someone was living at the time, where does that leave JAVA and half the rest?

Reference radio, Edison seems to have had the patent for Wireless Telegraphy whilst Tesla worked for him. It would seem that his work flowed from "standing on the shoulders of giants) (and before anyone thinks that is denigrating Tesla, that was Netwons claim regarding his work).
http://www.psu.edu/dept/inart10_110/inart10/radio.html

tony draper
14th Dec 2001, 01:25
I was going to say that Tesla probably deserves the radio thing rather than Marconi.
Its a bit like the powered flight controvery,
a lot of people don't think that should have went to the Wright brothers, but once its in the history books such things have a huge amount of inertia.
It is said that when the time has come for things like the Steam Engine, Aircraft or Light bulbs to be invented lots of totaly seperate people seem to come up with the idea at the same time.
Darwin and Wallace came up with freightningly similar conclusion in their study of natural history, Wallace knew about Darwin but I do not think Darwin was aware of Wallaces work untill he wrote to Darwin. Darwin was then more or less forced to publish his work which he had been reluctant to do for years.
I think Darwin he did credit Wallace in his book.

AA SLF
14th Dec 2001, 02:31
ah Mr. Draper -

Surprised you haven't spoken up about this invention claim about the transistor. You being an "electrical" type person. Since I too am an electrical type person (BSEE), and from Texas, I wish to correct the "Bell Labs" claim and put it where it rightfully belongs. Namely, at Texas Instruments, here in Dallas. Believe the Patent holder is one Mr. Jack Kelley (Irish-American?). Not sure on the last name though very well could be wrong as I never did work at TI.

dAAvid - ex W9NHY

Velvet
14th Dec 2001, 02:46
Mr Tony - I know the DeHaviland Comet usually claims to be the first, but the Avro Canada C102 achieved 10,000ft and over an hour duration in August 1949 a more realistic flight than the Comet's runway jump. However, they did use 4 RR Derwent engines and was owned by Hawker Siddley.


I though that American physicists Walter Houser Brattain, John Bardeen, and William Bradford Shockley (in Bell Labs) who shared the 1956 Nobel Prize in physics were recognised as the inventors of the transister.

AA SLF
14th Dec 2001, 03:24
Velvet -

You are absolutely correct. Just did a search (see this URL http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/kilbyctr/jackstclair.shtml ). It was the IC and not the transistor. See my red faced icon on this post.

I did remember that tis person's last name started with a "K" though.

They say that memory is the second thing that goes in old age. Probably correct, as I am slowly learning.

dAAvid - :o :o

tony draper
14th Dec 2001, 03:28
Twenty points to Miss V. ;)
errr, we did invent the Jet engine.

PS, Draper wishes someone would invent a set of stairs that work both ways, one is tired of having to walk up the front stairs,then having to walk all the way thru the house and down he back stairs just to get outside the house again.

[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

bblank
14th Dec 2001, 04:18
"errr, we did invent the Jet engine."

Not so fast. Hans von Ohain constructed a working jet engine several years before Sir Frank's design was implemented. Both Whittle and Ohain were jointly awarded engineering's highest accolade, The Charles Stark Draper Prize. http://www.draper.com/draper_prize/prize.htm
Jack Kilby, mentioned just upthread, has also been a recipient. (Any random path that meanders long enough is sure to self-intersect.)

It must have been hard, Mr D, to see Uncle Charlie fritter away the family fortune by means of his philanthropic pursuits. What all this has to do with Newfoundland is beyond me.

radeng
14th Dec 2001, 12:22
Of course, the Scots do get in the radio thing, since it all goes back to James Clark Maxwell and his famous equations of electromagnetic proagation.

Tesla didn't really do that much real radio. Even Marconi only exploited the work of Heinrich Hertz, and far more real radio invention was done by people such as Armstrong and Franklin.

Although it's a hundred years since Marconi got across, December 7th saw the 80th anniversary of the first short wave (HF) signals across the Atlantic. That was all done by radio amateurs. The American radio Relay League, the radio amteur organisation in the US, paid for an American amateur, Payl Godley, to go to England with the most advanced type of receiver. Godley set up in an electrically quiet field in Ardrossan, and received the first HF signals, thus proving the worth of HF. As they say, the rest is history....

tony draper
14th Dec 2001, 13:36
Indeed Mr Blank, the Draper clan fortune has been in sad decline for a century now.
We have little contct with those who fled to the colonies and have done well among those rebels, ha!, what do you expect, in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, as they say.
Once cousin Obediah proves his claim to the throne of Sotland and or estates are returned to us, the family will be back in its rightful place, flogging peasants and evicting crofters. ;)

Tricky Woo
14th Dec 2001, 15:47
Did the Welsh ever invent anything? Nothing springs to mind.

TW

tony draper
14th Dec 2001, 15:59
The English longbow,that served us so well against those Frenchies, I do beleive they had something to do with that.
They probably grew the tree's there, we also got a lot of the bricks for building Stonehenge from them.
They are the original celtic folks of these isles, small dark coves, fond of hiding in the woods and lurking behind rocks, Difficult chaps to get a sword blade into, as my Viking ancester Draper the Bald used to say. ;)

Tricky Woo
14th Dec 2001, 16:46
They probably invented taffy apples.

TW

Loki
14th Dec 2001, 22:08
Velvet;

Is that the same as the Avro Ashton?

tony draper
14th Dec 2001, 22:22
Wasn't John Paul Jones who helped found the American Navy a welshman,?or Jones the Boat ,as he was known in the valleys. ;)

[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

PaperTiger
14th Dec 2001, 23:02
Much to some people's undoubted chagrin (nay, apoplexy even) the 'jet' engine was invented by Henri Coanda, a Frenchie.
It caught fire on its first flight, the Coanda effect naturellement, but a worthy effort nonetheless.
Piccy at http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/coanda.htm

bblank
14th Dec 2001, 23:51
I am chagrined - nay, apoplectic. Although I am pleased to learn of the Coanda-1910 and elated to find a new picture to add to my a/c image collection, I wonder if a plane that ignites during its takeoff roll and falls to earth during its climb can be considered a successful invention. Mr. Moderator, please adjudicate. (And if anyone has home movies of the flight, the trustees of the Charles Stark Draper Prize will no doubt wish to review them.)

tony draper
15th Dec 2001, 00:04
Bloody hell, they are determined to take every thing away from us poor limey's.
Well there is one thing we Englishmen invented and perfected, thats the art of shouting at foreigners, in order to make your wishes known, works every time, and means we don't have to learn all those boring languages. ;)

[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

Velvet
15th Dec 2001, 00:33
Loki, not sure - originally intended as a twin-engined - it was changed when they realised the RR AJ65 engines would not be available to civil aircraft within the required timescale, so it became a 4 engine intended as a regional jet and it sure was a pretty plane. It achieved speeds of 840mph on one of its test flights. It was sacrified by the Canadian Government who wanted Avro to concentrate on the C100 military jet.

One interesting footnote, . An airport manager in New York City insisted that the Jetliner park away from the terminal and had pans placed under the "fire-spitting" engines to catch any dangerous drippings. It was thought that the jet engines would set iight to the terminal buildings.

A quote from Don Rogers , Chief Test Pilot for AVRO
Those of you who are pilots will appreciate the fun it was flying cross-country in this airplane because most of the transports operated in the five thousand to fifteen thousand foot level. We were cruising at thirty thousand feet at 420 or 430 miles an hour. Every time we reported over a radio fix and gave our altitude as 30,000 feet and our estimate to the next fix, the ground controller would come back and say "Do you mean three thousand?"... "No, thirty thousand!" And then they would say "We've checked your estimate; there must be a mistake here somewhere ..." The folks in Air Traffic Control were not accustomed to those speeds. So this was all quite fun for us sitting in the cockpit in pressurized comfort flying on autopilot and working the computer across the countryside. Of course this sort of thing is all 'old hat' now, but in those days it was new and exciting..........

Now you must realize that this all happened in 1951 and '52. This was some seven years before the 707 and the DC-8 flew with the airlines in commercial use, and many years before the DC-9. If the Jetliner had gone through its normal development, with a thinner wing using some sweepback and with more powerful engines such as the developed Orenda, perhaps - if it had once got into production, it was such a fine flying airplane and had such good performance and handling that, in its normal course of development, I am sure it would have been a DC-9 type aircraft about ten years before that aircraft eventually arrived on the scene.


In 1958 the same company also built the Arrow - fly by wire, computer control, integral missile system and capable of MACH 2+.

bblank
15th Dec 2001, 01:47
In 1958 the same company also built the Arrow - fly by wire, computer control, integral missile system and capable of MACH 2+

The Arrow was truly the stuff of dreams. About that fly-by-wire - I believe that it was limited to a yaw damper that was added in development to control for unexpected yaw instability. I have no idea about computer control but I'm a little skeptical. The integrated circuit was not even invented at the time. Computers then were still extremely bulky. The first programming language adequate for the task of flight control was developed after the Arrow was designed. Even NASA, a few years later, did not use computers for its first missions. All of which is to say that if you could supply a reference that pertains to the Arrow and computer control I would be most interested.

I wish I had seen an Arrow. I lived near the Canadair plant in St. Laurent. It was always a thrill to see a CF-104 parked on its field (mid-60's).

Cornish Jack
15th Dec 2001, 02:02
Mr D
I seriously doubt that your baker (or any of those foreigner types) actually makes a TRADITIONAL Cornish pasty. The rubbish which is advertised and sold as such outside the confines of the sea and the Tamar bears no relationship to the REAL thing. Will it pass the TEST? Survive undamaged from an unrestrained descent of a tin mine shaft? Overlap a LARGE dinner plate by a handsome margin? Contain the CORRECT ingredients? Carry the owner's initials in one corner to identify it if not consumed at one sitting? No, I think not. The woofter designed party fare which passes for Cornish pasties amongst the effete population to the North and East are best left to hairdressers and the like. We Celts like things to be properly done. :D

tony draper
15th Dec 2001, 13:51
Draper has always found the pasty a rather bland and tastless item of the bakers art Mr J.
The ones Draper speaks of although they lack the genuine spicy taste of that Radioactive Radon gas that permiates the genuine cornish pasty, are very tasty nevertheless.
Also one has to switch the lights on to locate them in the dark, nor are they self heating.
;)

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

gas path
15th Dec 2001, 14:44
Getting worried here that everything thought of as being English some smart alec comes up with some other foreign johnny who thougt of it first SO......out came the books ....well GOOGLE actually and here we have a few very useful English inventions.....
The self propelled torpedo 1864
The Maxim gun 1884
The Tank 1914
The marine chromometer 1749 (Dell boy found one of those in a house clearance sale ;))
The breech loading cannon 1852
The shrapnel shell 1784 very useful that!!
Various knitting machines and things 1589 and on!!
The reflecting telescope 1668
Holography 1947

Kermit 180
15th Dec 2001, 14:51
Who invented the submarine? And before self-propelled torpedos, did someone have to swim the thing into the target or what? :eek:

tony draper
15th Dec 2001, 15:26
Cornelious Van Drebble,demonstrated the first Submarine, on the Thames, he don,t sound like a Essex lad.
PS, Draper did not have to consult Google for that snippet. ;)

gas path
15th Dec 2001, 15:39
Clever dick :D :D

Loki
15th Dec 2001, 21:53
Kermit 180:

The earliest torpedoes were explosive warheads mounted on the end of spars projecting forward of the vessel thus equipped. The only advantage seemed to be the slightly lesser risk of damage than full on ramming would cause to the attacker.

Loki
15th Dec 2001, 21:56
Paper Tiger:

I think you might find that Coanda was a Romanian.

tony draper
15th Dec 2001, 22:06
Jeebus, Those Bugg*rs had Jet planes Mr Loki?. makes you wonder why Hadrian needed that wall built across the country. ;)

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]

Squawk 8888
16th Dec 2001, 08:13
The Canadian government didn't kill the jetliner directly. It was the then government-owned Trans-Canada Airlines (now AC) that killed it by deciding not to buy 'em, stating that they didn't want to be the first to use an unproven technology. That's the Canadian dream in a nutshell: Success without risk. That's why all our talent goes south- nobody here wants to do anything or invest in anything without an iron-clad guarantee.

BTW CP Air ended up being the first Canadian carrier to fly jets- they flew Comets in the 1950s but AC was all-piston until getting the Viscounts in 1956 and didn't have jets until they bought the DC-8s in 1961.

tony draper
16th Dec 2001, 16:56
Documentry on the History Channel tonight at eight oclock, they are going to examine all the evidence as to who is entitled to the credit for the first powered flight.Should be interesting.

Rollingthunder
16th Dec 2001, 17:38
Squawk - "BTW CP Air ended up being the first Canadian carrier to fly jets- they flew Comets in the 1950s"

Well sort of. Took delivery of one in England and lost it after take-off out of Karachi on the delivery flight, if memory serves. Lost quite a few of our best people. Regular jet service started with the DC8-43.

Velvet
16th Dec 2001, 20:30
Brian - http://www.avroarrow.org/factualarrow.asp- found it when looking for information to respond to Loki's question.


Avro Arrow Fly-by-wire
Early in the design, it was decided that some form of power assist would be required to help control and fly the aircraft during supersonic flight. The chosen result was fly-by-wire. In conventional systems, the pilot's stick and rudder controls are mechanically linked via steel cables or rods to valves which control high pressure fluid flow to the actuators. These powerful hydraulic actuators, in turn, operate the aircraft's control surfaces, such as elevators and ailerons. In military aircraft, automatic flight control systems, gyroscopes and position sensors are also mechanically linked to the actuators through the control rods.

In the Arrow automatic flight control system (AFCS), in automatic mode, the pilot's stick and positioning sensors were linked electrically to electro-hydraulic actuators. Hence, stability, command and control were effected almost instantaneously in all three axes. Analogue computers with a mix of vacuum tube and transistor technology were used, together with autostabilization of the tail fin and artificial feel, to give the pilot some sense of force on his control stick.

Not until the 1970s did fighter planes use a similar AFCS, although variations had been employed in experimental aircraft and the SR 71 Blackbird. The F16 and Panavia Tornado both used analogue fly-by-wire.The first fighter to replace the analogue system with digital electronics was the F/A18 Hornet.

How effective was the Arrow fly-by-wire automatic flight control system? According to test pilot Spud Potocki, in a 60-degree climb, with full afterburner, he would shut down one engine and experience no expected sideslip or roll. The AFCS would compensate instantaneously. Automatic approaches and takeoffs were also successfully completed. The Arrow was the most modern interceptor in the world, clearly over 20 years ahead of its time.

On Friday, February 20,1959, the Canadian government ordered all work on the Arrow cancelled

bblank
16th Dec 2001, 21:32
Thanks Velvet. I jumped to the conclusion that "computer control" meant more. The idea of using vacuum tubes to correct instability is interesting - they were very unreliable. I've read elsewhere about the "artificial feel" that is mentioned - a system of springs designed to give the illusion of traditional flight control. IIRC, only one RCAF pilot ever flew the Arrow - what a waste!

tony draper
16th Dec 2001, 21:40
There was a movie made about the cancellation of the Arrow, stared George Went, from cheers if I recal correctly.
A great deal of American skulldugery involved, much like the American Machiavelian machinations,(wow that was good)involved with the cancellation of the beautiful TSR2. ;)

PaperTiger
16th Dec 2001, 22:41
TD:
If you're thinking of the CBC made-for-TV movie, that was Dan Akroyd. Although his waistline has expanded with age, he has a way to go to equal 'Norm'.

Thunder:
Here's a link to the Karachi crash http://aviation-safety.net/database/1953/530303-1.htm
Sounds more like a demo flight than delivery - why go the long way round ?

bblank
16th Dec 2001, 22:48
I didn't know that Diefenbaker was a Yank Mr D, but I did suspect that he was some kind of alien.

PaperTiger, is this the movie where one of the Arrows flew off safely into the sunset? I didn't see it but an old pal had many sarcastic comments.

Now that we have established the FBW nature of the Arrow, all of this is off-topic, this being a wireless thread.

tony draper
16th Dec 2001, 22:58
The first true fly by wire was a modified Crusader I believe, interestingly they pinched the fly by wire stuff from the Apollo Space Craft.
Not many people know that.
Praise be the discovery channel. ;)

PaperTiger
17th Dec 2001, 02:01
Yes, one Arrow was saved from the wrecking ball, departed Malton at sunset and has been kept ever since at Groom Lake.

henry crun
17th Dec 2001, 02:16
While we are talking about the Arrow, lets not forget that great Iroquois engine that was designed to power it.

It pioneered the use of titanium in jet engines, had a number of notable engineering firsts, and was, like the aircraft, a long way ahead of its time.

Rollingthunder
17th Dec 2001, 03:25
PT, Yes the long way round. Delivery/showoff flight. We had great expectations at the time for expansion primarily to the pacific rim having already pioneered some routes, west coast - Asia, using DC6's and Northstars.We were at the time stifled on other routes domesically and to Europe by the biased government and TCA. TCA wouldn't even attempt Asian routes in that era. Still irritates after all these years as does the Diefenbaker government's handling of the Arrow (project is not just cancelled - destroy all the prototypes)in favour of the Bomark (sp?) missile defence system. Can't have the Canadians being 5, 10, 20 years ahead of our cousins to the south or anyone else can we?

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Rollingthunder ]

radeng
17th Dec 2001, 12:11
Not comvimced about the lack of vacuum tube reliabiltiy, comsidering the number taken out of service after 110,000 hours and still meeting production spec. I have a piece of equipment still using one bought in 1936....

But wasn't the jet engine really invented by Hero the Greek about 3000 years ago?

Kermit 180
17th Dec 2001, 12:23
There was an episode of Jeremy Clarkson's 'Speed' series that went into the Americans stealing ideas from (or 'persuading') the British Govt to discontinue development of certain items of technology with military potential.

Apparently the British had developed an all-flying tailplane that would enable full pitch control at supersonic speeds, and this had been designed and tested on a low speed aeroplane in 1943. The British supersonic aeroplane developed to break the sound barrier (the name eludes me) was mysteriously halted after the British agreed to exchange supersonic research info with their American 'mates'. The Americans accepted the British data with joy, but they failed to swap ideas with their trans-Atlantic allies. The Bell X-1 piloted by Mr Yeager (the X-1 looks remarkably exactly like the British discontinued aircraft!) broke the sound barrier first.

What gives? Was it to allow the Americans to appear to be the almighty inventors of everything to scare the Ruskies? Or was there economical aspects as well (Britain must have still been recovering financially after WW2 and receiving US economical support).

Remember too, that the NASA rockets took their initial technology from captured German scientists and examples of the infamous Hitler-inspired V2 ballistic missiles.

Feel much better now Ive aired that, cheers. :)

ORAC
17th Dec 2001, 15:46
Ah! nostalgia, remember the UK space programme, particularily Black Knight and Black Arrow:
http://members.aol.com/nicholashl/ukspace/ukspace.htm

gas path
17th Dec 2001, 16:00
That'll be the Miles M52 research aircraft. First flight was due early in 1946 but the project was cancelled by our government on the orders of the US Government. :mad: :mad:

Gainesy
17th Dec 2001, 21:36
Didn't the Air Ministry tell George Miles that they considered it too dangerous for a manned flight? I vaguely remember that Capt Eric "Winkle" Brown and other test pilots volunteered to have a go anyway