Manchester Expansion

[Bagso]

Never mind expanding another bloody airport in the South East , how about placing capacity in part at the point where demand actually occurs.

Everyone that is clamouring for more capacity in the SouthEast has no grasp of the main issue involved in this !

ie THERE IS NO AIRSPACE LEFT, geddit !


Take a reality check guys and gals, it wouldn't matter if you put in 5 extra runways there is simply no room in the stacks above !

Ask the guys at LATCC !

This shambles is a result of 30 years of total aviation mismanagement, which has resulted in total UK demand being forced into the London. It started in the early sixties and was compounded in the seventies when numerous airlines applied to serve Manchester but were denied.

Bilateral agreements in place at the time prevented direct access to Manchester. The designated UK gateways were deemed to be LHR and PWK; nobody wanted PWK so this simply forced more and more traffic into the South East.

We then had clamours for expanding LGW and then lo and behold we ended up with Stansted.

By the time the Bilaterals were changed it was too late, many airlines ended up serving LHR and were not then prepared to split costs by operating from a second base elsewhere.

If evidence were needed of how centralised the UK air transport infa structure actually is, just consider our national airline ( I use the term loosely) . It has just one meagre daily service to New York.... its a joke, its been running 30 years and has not expanded in all that time in frequency despite 5 new airlines now also operating on similar routes and using frequency and aircraft type to match demand.

In Germany they do not have a centralised airport policy the national airline operates direct long haul services not just from Frankfurt but also from Dussledorf and Munich.

In the UK we choose to use up much needed slots at LHR by funnelling traffic from Manchester on upwards of 30 flights a day, slots that could actually be used more effectively to provide extra capacity out of London itself. There is however now no desire to change this status quo.

Consider the facts

LHR - Japan, 6 a day but from Manchester none
LHR - USA an obscene number - from Manchester about 5
LHR - South Africa 6 a day - Manchester none
LHR - Australia 8 a day - Manchester none.....

etc etc etc..............

We are however where we are, ideally there should be two hubs, one new major airport with 6/8 runways in the South and another in the North at Manchester!

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Here here

Things are a bit better than they were but could be miles better

Malasian,SIA,PIA,Qatar,Emirates etc have proved that there is demand to the far/middle east but Africa and USA are under served

The public need to be educated that they don`t need to go to London, that is if the airlines make Manchester fares comparable to London and don`t charge more as a number do!!!!

Give the regional airport a chance and they will negate some of the south east`s runway problems



Golf India Bravo

[BahrainLad]

Stacks......the reason the stacks are full is because there is limited runway capacity. Increase the number of runways, increasing the ability to land more aircraft, and then you decrease the pressure on the stacks.

Germany.........population 85m, UK population 57m.....perhaps that's why they can support two hubs? Also, Germany has historically had a more distributed commercial base as a consequence of its recent history. The current "south-east" mentality is a cultural and governmental, not an aviation issue.

[LBAir]

:rolleyes: Didn't you respond to the Department for Transports Future Development of Aviation National Consultation?

The book was raising such points and was asking people for their opinions on such matters.:ugh:

I do agree that airports 'up NORTH' should be alowed to facilatate a lot more flights. eg. Manchester a lot more Inter-continental, East Midlands, Leeds Bradford a lot more European and maybe the odd east coast American. I know for instance enough people travel to the States from LBA via connecting flights to sustain its own direct service.
:cool: YORKSHIRE:ok:

[BAe 146-100]

I don't think LBA could do a USA flight with 2250m of runway.

BAe 146-100

[LBAir]

It has already been proved possible, Wardair 747 aircraft operated to YYZ in the 80's, Nationair 757 operated to YYZ in the late 80's and Britannia have operated flights to Orlando using 767-300 equiptment, so it is possible.

OK, so the runway is only 2250m long (facts correct) plans are in the pipeline to extend the runway at Leeds by 300m to give a better safety margin as well as allowing aircraft to perhaps use more fuel.:=

from YORKSHIRE:ok:

[Headset starter]

What I find laughable about the BA MAN-JFK route is that they class it as a BA CitiExpress operated route. How can that be? Mainline obviously like it that much they try to remove the responsibility and let their regional carrier take the service.

Strange.

Also, it's taken an age for them to upgrade the cabin to LHR standards, with the new WT Plus setup.

Ack well.

HS

[chiglet]

IMMHO, BA at Manch is a glorified "handling agent". To be fair to the Guys 'n' Galls there, they "seem" to be told NOWT.
BAW flights.....JFK, LHR,LGW...the rest BACX? WIHIH?
EVERY "Shared" route, [apart from Paris] is BA 1 Other10
Paris is BA5, Other9.
BA fly Ba146/E145/ATP/DHc8....Others fly A321/B735/CRJ7..and are FILLING them.
It has to be asked, "Have BA lost the Plot?"
watpiktch

[garethjk22]

Not that I want to pour water on the bonfire, but Manchester's growth has been seriously hindered by liverpool, and if yorkshire is, and it does deserve, long haul services, think you'll find they go from Finningley and not Leeds!

[busz]

Bagso, you are absolutely correct.

It drives me completely up the wall the way Manchester has been treated by BA, and the focus they have put on Heathrow. During the 80s they tried so hard to prevent airlines such as Singapore Airlines and American Airlines from gaining access to Manchester. More recently, because of the Oneworld alliance, they 'encouraged' Qantas to end its flights to the north and instead have the passengers ferried down to Heathrow. Just look at the success of Emirates. Only a few months after they launched their second daily service, and they are filling both flights a day. THey are soon going to be adding a third daily flight. Im sure that a VERY high proportion of these passengers will be transferring to other services, principally Australia and East Asian destinations. Which reminds me, until recently, another Oneworld member served Manchester frequently, namely Cathay Pacific. Im sure that BA had something to do with their decision to pull out.

To be honest, i despise Heathrow (cant you tell), and feel that the people of manchester have been extremely hard done by when it comes to direct scheduled services from Ringway. As far as i can see, Heathrow has to be one of the worst airports (aesthetically and operationally) of any airport i have visited. Low ceilings, overcrowding, and dingy buildings.

In my opinion, Manchester should become a hub for traffic. The neglet that BA has shown to their services from the north is disgraceful, and should be corrected immediately. If i could, i would ban the Heathrow shuttle to force airlines to consider Manchester as an alternative to Thiefrow.

It seems simple to me that one way of reducing or at least delaying congestion in the south-east is to operate more flights from the north. If just one of each of the daily frequencies operating into Heathrow was diverted to Manchester, just think of the capacity that would become available at Heathrow for new airlines and destinations. Hell, i think people from London should have to connect through Manchester, see how they like it. It always amuses me when searching on expedia for flights from london to Chicago, to see BMI offering a connecting service through Manchester. Go BMI.

I understand that the majority of origin and destination passengers will be london based, i just believ that it is unfair to force northerners like myself to be funneled down through the sh*t hole they call an airport near Hounslow.

Hopefully, with the publishing of the White Paper, the government will at least help airlines redress the imbalance.

Provide capacity where it is wanted, and stop forcing passengers to commute down to london to catch their flights.

And that my friends, concludes my little rant.

Alex:ok:

[This Charming Man]

I agree with Chiglet. An informed source inside MAplc tells me that the airport are no longer treating them as 'royalty'.
The final staw being that despite the investment in T3 the present BA mangement will not introduce any more longhaul as promised when the terminal was first built. The New York service is a shambles ,always full and overbooked , repeated requests for a B777 falling on deaf ears. They are getting spanked on the European routes , the business man has disowned them and they no longer get the ' yields' . ERJ's went down like lead balloons with briefcases and laptops being confiscated at the gate because there was no storage room. LH,AF,SAS,IBE etc are laughing their heads off with exceptional business loads.

Despite being let down by our national carrier , according to this initial planning list for next year, MAN could be very busy.

AZ - Alitalia - New twice daily MXP service with A319 eff. 01Oct, a/c overnight at MAN.

BU - Braathens - New four per week OSL service with B737-700.

BW - BWIA - Increase BGI/POS service to twice per week operating Fridays and Sundays with A340-300.

CO - Continental - Change of equipment on EWR service for period 16May-08Sep to B777, other dates continue with B767-400.

CY - Cyprus a/w - Increase PFO/LCA service from four to five per week, new Friday service, all with A320.

EUY - EU Airways - New twice per day BFS service with FK100.

FX - Federal Express - New CDG-MAN-MEM (Memphis) freight service Monday to Thursday with MD11 eff 30Aug.

HLX - Hapag Lloyd Express - New twice per day BIO (Bilbao) service and reinsate second daily CGN service with B737-700's.

IB - Iberia - New double daily MAD service with MD87 (plus existing BCN service).

KF - Blue one - (formerly Air Botnia) New daily evening HEL service with AR8.

KL- KLM - Increase from seven to eight AMS services as during W03, with some services increasing in capacity to B737-400/800 aircraft.

LO - LOT - Increase WAW service from six per week to daily with new Saturday night-stopper.

MA - Malev - Plan to reinstate their BUD service with a daily service with B736 to overnight at MAN.

OA - Olympic - Increase from two to four per week to ATH, new service on Mondays and Thursdays with B737-400.

OK - CSA - Increase from ten to thirteen services per week to PRG, daily midday and daily overnighting except Saturday night all B737-500.

PK - PIA - New twice weekly ORD and YYZ services with B777, plus five JFK's and increase to daily terminating service all with B747-200/300's. (50 movements per week).

QR - Qatar - Increase from four per week to daily DOH service with A300-600, times remain split between morning and evening services.

SK - SAS - New twice per day ARN service with B737-600, and continuation from W03 of fourth CPH nightstopping service.

T4 - Hellas Jet - New twice per day ATH service with A320.

TK - Turkish - Increase from five per week to daily IST service with B737-800.

VG - VLM - Increase to twelve per day LCY service with FK50.

VZ - My Travel Lite - New daily GRO and PMI service with A320. (No TFS otr MJV).

WF - Wideroe - Continuation from W03 of new midday BGO (Bergen) service with Dash8.

WW - BMI baby - Four based B737-300's operating three per day BFS, daily AGP, ALC BCN, ORK,PMI, PRG and weekly MJV. New destinations are daily BOD, CDG, JER.

WOW - Air South West - Continuation from W03 of proposed new three per day PLH/BRS service with Dash8.

YK - Kibris - Increase from two to three per week DLM service with B737-800.

ZU - Helios - New twice weekly PFO service on Wednesdays and Sundays with B737-800.

[Bagso]

Certainly the Liverpool factor has hopefully "sparked" MAPLC into life but its doubtful it will actually have any long term effect.

Not now the airport management has finally lurched into life after being so complacent for so long...!

Worth noting however which airport has more low cost flights ?

Its now Manchester....count them !

Possibly not quite the same quality of destination but nonetheless there are now more low cost flights out of MAN than Liverpool

In 12 months it has achieved what Liverpool has taken 6 years to do ?

Liverpool will always suffer in the same way as Man does to LHR.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The real answer for national and even intra-European travel is high speed rail. It is ludicrous to fly people between major cities a few hundred miles apart (manchester - Paris, for example). High speed rail is already taking most inter city travel within mainland Europe (it is cheaper, quicker, and more comfortable - and environmentally more sensible). If the system was extended to include the UK beyond the south east, we could have some of that cake too.

That would free-up loads of slots for better medium to long haul flight provision - whether from Manch or LHR.

SSD

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

After Eurostar`s attempt at starting a Manchester Paris service
a few years ago nobody in their right mind would choose that option as it was going to take 7 hours and cost as much if not more than the plane. Add to it the train didn`t work on
on the West coast line either because of numerous problems which kept it sat in the sheds for about 2 years doing nothing.

The UK north of Birmingham is a complete different kettle of fish from Europe because of having to go a long way south before getting anywhere

Golf India Bravo

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

GIB - agree it would never work over the current infrastructure; though I can currently go Wilmslow to Euston in 2 hours which isn't bad and certainly beats the Shuttle into a cocked hat for meetings in central London.

What I'm saying is that the CTRL high speed railway needs to be extended, as it has been in mainland Europe, beyond St Pancras and on up to the Midlands, the north, and into Scotland, so that high speed (200mph +) trains can run non-stop from major citys like Brum and Manch to Paris and Brussells etc. as they do across similar distances in Mainland Europe - taking loads of traffic from the airlines on these short routes which aren't really suited to air travel.

SSD

[knobbygb]

Good to see not too many people knocking MAN (yet). It has LOADS of faults, sure, but it's far superior to anything in the SE from a PAX point of view.

I understand the demads from those in Liverpool and Yorkshire for growth at their own regional airports, but if you think about it, they nearly all live within around an hour of MAN anyway. Thats probably closer than most Londoners are to heathrow :ooh: I can't help wondering what difference it would make if MAN were branded as, I don't know, "North West England International" (or somthing much better sounding). Perhaps that would do away with the regoional rivalary. Surely one big airport covering the whole catchment area has got to work better (in these times of alliances) than a few smaller ones. Hell, I don't care if you call it "Liverpool East" as long as I don't have to transit LHR. It has a half decent rail link, tram system under construction and is right on the motorway (NOT the M25!); it could be soooo much better....

As a point of interest, does anybody have figures for pax transiting LHR-MAN-ORD/IAD on bmi, or to JFK on BA for that matter?

Oh, and do Easyjet still operate the FREE :eek: coach service to Manchester city centre from LPL? Since when did the likes of Easy give anything away for free unless it was absoultley vital to their business.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

This charming man

Looks good, many I have heard about but one or two queries

Iberia- the flight is already bookable to Madrid and is one daily with Air Nostrum and starts in Feb

PIA- Wow if thats right and I hope it is we may have to rename the airport but I wonder where all the aircraft are coming from as they are also rumoured to be increasing at Birmingham and also starting Glasgow

Hellas- is this right or should it be twice weekly?

VLM- with starting Liverpool 5 daily as well maybe a bit of an overkill

If all this happens I think Manchester might be a tad short of stands

[emitex]

Being purely selfish, a MAN-DFW direct would be nice...

I'm not picky either, BA, AA or United would do (you do have to pay for booze on AA though:\ ).

[spannersatcx]

PIA- Wow if thats right and I hope it is we may have to rename the airport but I wonder where all the aircraft are coming from as they are also rumoured to be increasing at Birmingham and also starting Glasgow replace increasing Birmingham with stopping and moving to MAN.

[This Charming Man]

Golf India Bravo

all the gen came hot from the Singapore slot conf.
This is why I said it would still be good if only 50%
of it came off !

I agree it's a bit flimsy at the mom but heres hoping:D

[Beausoleil]

Manchester airport is a ten minute taxi ride for me - I use it all the time and will pay double to avoid going through either Heathrow or Gatwick.

But still, it has major flaws. Luggage takes ages to dribble out onto conveyor belts and the situation seems to get worse each time I get back - it's only a matter of time before there's a riot. The station is a joke with queues round the corner because nobody has got round to fixing the ticket machines or recruiting extra staff. And it looks more and more dilapidated and not cared for all the time.

Minor things, true, but hardly inspiring confidence that it could cope with a number of extra services. I know that recently I emerge from the airport mad as hell - the last thing you want at the end of a transAtlantic redeye is to be dangled around at the arrival airport for 90 minutes.

I'm still not going to use Liverpool, but if I lived half way I know I'd be giving it a go.

[DanAir1-11]

For all the (minor) faults Manchester suffers, (as undoubtedly irritating as they are) Surely it makes sense to utilise it as the major Northern Hub. Fix the baggage and railway dramas, and employ a few extra bodies wherever required. I also like the idea of renaming it. Why not combine a new name with a new image??
Name wise, hows about a piece of history - Ringway International

IMHO it is truly a great complex and could be bigger than Ben Hur if given appropriate opportunity.

i could never understand the THatcher regime giving precedence to Stanstead over Manchester in the 80's and I still don't understand the powers that be having fascination with further clogging our Southern terminal areas.

[World of Tweed]

Guys...IMHO,

The board of directors are one of the root causes of MAN undesirability. There have been many comments in this tread that are completely true -

I.e. Baggage - it does take an age to come through, considering the distance (physically you are away from the aircaft, especially T3 Domestic.!)

And the general decrepped state of T2, Skywalks, and the Railway station.

Airbridges - the first impression the LH airline crews get of MAN at T2 - they are falling apart with bent metal, perhaps HSBC shold sponsor those ones too - Oh wait.... they wanted to but refused put their name to something that crap!

But who controls all these factors?

Its a board of Council controlled directors that have one thing in the minds................

"This Place would make a GREAT Shopping Centre......if it just wasn't for those annoying Runways!"

This kind of leadership prefers to spend cash rejigging the many ways a Pax gets ripped off in an airport and refuse to invest in the core airport staff such as baggage handlers and security(wont open that pandoras box here).

Manchester could be a world class airport, but at the moment T2 looks like a 3rd rate one.

How can a government invest in such a place when MANplc refuses to invest in itself?

[Adola69]

I agree with World of Tweed, well said.
It has taken in excess of one month to repair the walkway from Rail station to T1 ( Still u/s) The same also goes for one in the link from Rail to T2. The lifts in T1 from ground to deps. & up to rail are the most pathetic I've ever come across for serviceability and speed. It wasn't uncommon to see 50-60 people queing for these during the past summer.
The elevated roadway to T1 looks like something you find in South America! Weeds growing out of the kerbsides, bushes overgrowing the railings with paint peeling off them ( The rails that is) What a welcome folk travelling must have?
A brand new car park facility constucted outside T1 arrivals with beautifully marked out disabled spaces fairly close the terminal, BUT with a 5inch kerb to negotiate almost along its entire length.

Just don't get me started on Apron / taxiway areas. Someone somewhere needs to seriously get his act together at MA Plc.
Bring back the likes of George Harvey or Gil Thomson, they had foresight and vision, of which the present incumbents of the positions have neither.:{

[Hawkley]

I thought things were going well. A succession of messages all making good rational points about why growth should come to Manchester but all the while you know it is only a question of time before the thread is comandeered by the Manchester negative brigade and they have not dissapointed us.

No doubt the thread will rapidly go downhill with plenty of management bashing and little left of the original messages.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

I know a lot of people who work at Manchester and I know for certain that they put a lot of effort in to make things run smoothly or get new business, lets give them a bit of support. I know things are far from perfect, but when are they ever and not just in the aviation industry.
I remember when Manchester was a little airport handling less than 2 million pax a year ( 1970 from memory) its come a long way

Good luck to Manchester Airport and all who work there after all without the airport there would be a lot of people without a job

Golf India Bravo

[chiglet]

Hang on while I get my zimmer frame......
As a kid I went to Ringway on Easter Sunday 1951 and saw one aeroplane [a BEA Viking]
I have worked there [in ATC] since 1970 and have been fortunate enough to have been on duty when the 100s barriers were crossed [300 per day etc]. I was also there for the Championship Final :ok:
According to our stats, we are 7.5% up on last year and [I think] 3.5% on '01.
Yeah it's not perfect, [what is?] but we try to give a good service. That, I am sure goes for every one who works there.
watpiktch

[kala87]

Interesting thread.

Of course MCR needs more scheduled flights, especially long-haul. As has already been mentioned, there are huge gaps in the choice of long haul destinations from Manchester. Direct flights to west coast USA, South Africa, Australia, Hong Kong and Japan are obvious destinations. The problem these flights aren't available may be due to passenger yield considerations. Basically, this means the proportion of seats filled by Business and First Class pax. It probably wouldn't be difficult filling flights with economy pax, but this alone doesn't generate enough profit for long-haul. The demand for higher- yield business traffic has to be there, which is the main reason why airlines concentrate long haul out of LHR. Even moving flights from LGW to LHR has a big impact on yields, which is why Virgin Atlantic have steadily been moving most of their operation from Gatwick to Heathrow.

I seem to remember reading in 'Flight' recently that the proportion of charter to scheduled pax at MCR is still about 51%, which is on the high side for an international airport. Anyway, good luck for the future and I hope MCR gets the additional routes it deserves.

[mmeteesside]

How about some long-haul from Teesside?

Our runway can take it unlike Newcastle...last summer (2002) their MYT NCL-TFS had to stop for fuel at Teesside!

We have had many long-haul flights operate off our runway.
eg. Air Atlanta B747's to YYC
European B747's from Iraq/Cyprus
Titan B757 from Iraq/Kuwait
and most recently

Air Force 1 + 2 to Andrews AFB
UA B763 to Andrews AFB
C17's to the US as well

Scott
mmeteesside

[MEFLYBE]

It's not so much about whether the runway is long enough, if that was the case, one could ask 'Why are there no long haul flights from Newquay or Manston'. It is a case of whether the market is there or not, and in Teesside's case, it is'nt.

Regards

Mike