West is Best

[eagerbeaver]

I watch a bit of discovery wings, in particular Seawings and Jets of the Cold War. It appears to me that many russian aircraft appear to be copies of western aircraft. In particular;

The Rockwell B1B and the TU160
The TU22m and
B52 and TU142 and 95
The harrier and Yak VSTOL forger
and Koncordski

Is it a case of west knows best and the russians played catch-up or that both russian and the west produced aircraft to a similar brief and that "form follows function", therefore each particular design house would produce something close because they are working towards the same end product? Purely co-incidental or espionage is really what i am getting at.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

From an engineering point of view, if you design to optimise a specific requirement the results will all be pretty similar. This is why most civvy airliners are all swept, tapered low wing monoplanes, with cylindrical fuselage, conventional empennage and two under wing mounted jet engines. However, espionage has certainly played a part in the past. I can think of specific examples: China reverse engineered a captured DC-3 Dakota and made exact unlicensed copies (can't remeber their name for it though). The Ruskies illegeally copied the RR Nene jet engine for the MiG-15 after, I believe, an inept Brit government sold them one and trusted them not to copy it. I believe the Ruskies also had spooks stealing Concorde blueprints when Konkordski was being cooked up. I understand that the original Mirage was based on the British Fairey Delta 2 experimental aircraft. That would have been a bit of a moneyspinner for the UK if we had developed it into a fighter!

There are numerous other a/c that bear striking similarities and particularly, where the layouts are slightly unconventional, you have to wonder how much cribbing went on. BTW, I'm sure it worked both ways, West to East and vv.

Check these out:

http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/3/1/2/096213.jpg Il-62

http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/1/7/0/460071.jpg VC-10
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And these:


http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/8/2/4/450428.jpg
Hawker Siddely Trident

http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/5/0/8/254805.jpg
Tupolev 154

http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/1/4/0/228041.jpg
Boeing 727
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and these:

http://www.lightning.org.uk/aircraft/img0001.jpg
English Electric Lightning

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mig-21_1-s.jpg
MiG-21 Fishbed

One difference between the last two is the wing planform. The MiG-21 is almost a delta whereas the Lightning is highly swept with lateral trailing edges. Aerodynamically almost the same, as the Lightning has simply snipped away the MiG-21s inboard trailing edge triangle, which has very low wing loading anyway.

I'll stop now.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Can anyone beat Stout in the spotter stakes? This is pretty impressive and should be highlighted as above and beyond the call of duty. Imagine - a whole thread on-topic?

[Fg Off Max Stout]

The result, Mr Hinecap, of an Aero Eng degree, some General Service Knowledge and only the internet for entertainment here in rainy Basrah. You'll be sorry to hear: no airband radio, binos, notebook, flask or cheese sandwich.

[hairyclameater]

Sure the "east " have copied the "west" but they never got it quite right did they?

Concorde- gorgous! TU144 - ugh, straight cranked wings, huge engine block, ungainly canards

B1 - great looking, like a big Hunter in side view, TU160 -ugh! over sized, crude straight edges, not even painted!!

VC10 - majestic sweping curves a real looker, IL62 - not quite ugh but still not a '10!

Cant think of anything remotely B52 -like in the former warpac, the military "Bear" being developed from the civilian "Cleat" airliner. The TU22 has no western contempories - thats whats scary about it!!

cant really compare the Harrier to the Forger either really. Harrier - 1 engine with 4 nozzles thats proved to be a winner. Yak 38 has 1 engine with 2 nozzles and 2 dedicated lift engines with a very limited performance.
'Spose it could be said that the west have copied east ref. the X35 which has the same engine configuration as the Yak141 i.e. a bloody great afterburning nozzle that rotates for VTOL and supersonic performance.

Thats also the 1st time Ive seen the lightning compared to the Mig21 - 2 stacked avons against a single tumansky, the delta wing bit, the lightnings belly tank and tall fin.... no just dont see the similarity.

Cant recall the Chinese copying the Dak but certainly the ruskies did, producing the Lisunov Li-2. It was all above board though as Douglas provided a licence agreement in '36.

Mirage copied from Fairey Delta?? First delta mirage flew in the mid 50s and the FD was surely an early 60s aircraft to support the Conc programme??

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

I think the Fairy Delta was built in the mid-1950s. Didn't Peter Twiss get its epochal 1,132 mph speed record around 1956, smashing the previous record by 300 or so mph ? The same aircraft was then modified into the BAC 221, which was the aircraft used in Concorde research. I think, anyway.

[tony draper]

Dunno, the Fulcrum and the Flanker don't look remotely like anything like the west ever built.
Anyway they recon Ivan used to get the blueprints before our factories did.
I remember reading about a Mig 15 landing with a dud early sidewinder sticking out the arse end, "thank you very much chaps" said Ivan.

:rolleyes:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Max.

I hope you are in the Army with a degree like that!
I'd hate to see a relevant degree in the RAF - respect for having one and using it and edjumacating us 'guins.

:ok:

[Gainesy]

Max,
Any idea what is happening to the Iraqi Hawker Fury that's sat dismantled in one of the hangars in Basrah? Any plans to recover it?

[BEagle]

Mirage was indeed burgled from the Fairey Delta 2! Peter Twiss captured the world record at 1132 mph; the aircraft was later fitted with an 'ogival' wing and took part in the Concorde programme as a high-speed research aircraft. Its stablemate, the HP 115 took car of low-speed research (and Dutch rolled like crazy!).

Tu-95 Bear was developed from the Tu2 'Bull' - itself a copy of the B29 Superfortress.

VC10 has a majestic appearance rather than the marked anhedral of the Il62 'Classic'. The reason being that anhedral makes the ac less liable to Dutch roll (ask your QFI) and the '62 has spring tab 'manual' ailerons (and a HUGE control column!).

I hope that there's no truth in the rumour that the Iraqi Fury ISS has been vandalised by the ignorant dung-eaters. The same people who vandalised the airport - including defecating in the baths....or so I'm reliably informed.

[hairyclameater]

Obviously the 221 I was thinking of, My God were'nt we good back in the '50s!?

Of course!- the Cleat was developed from the Bear rather than t'other way round, but cant find any reference to the Bear emanating from the Bull other than the fuselage was the same diameter.

Looking at 3 view drawings (yes I know I need to get out more!), the '10 has even more anhedral than the Classic (not the best reporting name eh?)The wing leading edge appears more messy with a bit of a dog tooth too.Though cant argue about the control column!

Fulcrum is essentially a 2 engine, 2 fin F16 without FBW, and Flanker owes a lot to the F15 (itself built as an answer to the Foxbat but far superior)

[Runaway Gun]

What about the Americans stealing the best of the British designs?

That B727 looks a little like a VC10.... kinda.

[eagerbeaver]

the other aircraft i was thinking of in particular was the US navy Vigilante and the TU22m
As for the forger i did not know any specifics about construction/technical side of things but i thought it looked very similar to the harrrier.
Has the west ever copied any russian designs?

[Art Field]

The Soviets may have pinched the shapes from the West but if the IL62 is anything to go by their interiors look more like a product of the Fordson tractor factory. Not just for the punters either, the cockpit is rugged to say the least.

[Maj T.J. 'King' Kong]

The Tu-4 (not Tu-2) was indeed a nut-for-nut, bolt-for-bolt copy of the B-29. Source material was some B-29s interned in Russia during WW2 after (I think) raiding Jap positions in China. Apparently thay had a real problem with replicating the Wright Cyclone engines - very technically advanced bits of kit, them.

This whole topic was once explained to me as being partly down to the different ways that engineering is (or was) taught in East & West. In the West, engineers are taught to analyse the requirements and come up with an original, tailored solution. In the East, the approach is to analyse the requirements, find something that already does a similar job, then learn and adapt! Kind of institutionalised 'don't reinvent the wheel' technique.

Of course, if someone can snaffle the plans for you, so much the better...:E

[steamchicken]

They could also be pretty original - think of those Beriev jet flying boats, Antonov 22s, Foxbats and the like.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Gainesy,

Back on this green and pleasant land now. Hurrah.

In answer to your question, I believe that a Fury in reasonable condition was recovered from Shiabah, about 20 miles south of Basrah. I think this was an RAF airfield many years ago and is now a field hospital. Rumour has it that this a/c is now dismantled sitting in a few iso containers ready to come home. I think I saw its prop in a compound near my place of work. I don't know whether it would be sold, restored, or kept as a trophy.

Alledgedly, there was at least one more Fury at Shiabah, but in scrap metal condition. I also saw personally, a Halo helicopter nearby Shiabah with an LGB shaped hole in it and a MiG-21 on a pole gate guard that has taken a toppling and is now nose first into the dust, but otherwise in not too bad static condition.

Apparently trophies can only be claimed by fighting units during war. If claimed after the hostilities it is considered looting. So the redcaps and snowdrops won't let me bring home a few bits of shrapnel, yet the MoD is (maybe) bringing home an aircraft after the conflict, and I bet they sell it. Or am I being cynical.

And Iraqi ears were right out of the question.

[Gainesy]

Max,
Thanks for the info and welcome back. If the fury is the one I saw pics of, it looks to be quite well looked after and restorable.

[hairyclameater]

Re-US navy Vigilante and the TU22m

Nah, cant see that one!! very different beasts. Both fairly unique designs and completely different to each other.

Re- think of those Beriev jet flying boats,

yanks had a 50s jet flying boat - Convair Seamaster was it or something?very similar to the Russian ones of a later generation, and Saunders Roe were flying the worlds only jet flying boat fighter just after the war.

foxbat was a new shape in the sky when it flew, I suppose we could say McD-D copied it somewhat with the F15, but also improved it dramatically!!From a Mach 3 dash limited capability fighter to a world beating superfighter that turned into a first class striker as well.