View Full Version : "JetStar" the name - 23 A320s ordered

1st Dec 2003, 10:22

Just Announced by Qantas.

Howard Hughes
1st Dec 2003, 10:27
Now that was quick!!

I guess the only question now is, what about the crewing?


1st Dec 2003, 10:34
Maybe they should consider subjecting the QF Board to the drug testing rather than the employees.


Good God. Reminds me of PornStar.


1st Dec 2003, 10:36
Monday December 1, 2:08 PM AEDT

Qantas says to buy 23 Airbus planes for new carrier

SYDNEY, Dec 1 (Reuters) - Australia's biggest airline, Qantas Airways Ltd , said on Monday it plans to acquire 23 Airbus planes for its new low-cost carrier, to be named Jetstar.

Qantas Chief Executive Geoff Dixon said the airline would use new Airbus A320 aircraft from June, 2004, and would eventually have an all-A320 fleet.

"The domestic pleasure market is growing rapidly and now represents over 60 percent of all passengers. Jetstar will concentrate on growing this market," Dixon said.

Qantas confirmed in October it would launch a low-cost domestic carrier in May 2004 in an effort to fend off competition from Richard Branson's Virgin Blue.

The new, independently-run airline would have a minimum of 23 aircraft and the airline had been negotiating with Boeing Co , Airbus and aircraft lessors to acquire at least 23 Boeing 737-800 or A320 planes for the venture by mid-2005.

Qantas's fleet is dominated by Boeing aircraft, accounting for 72 percent of its 179 planes, including 50 737s. It has four Airbus A330s with another nine on order and 12 Airbus A380 planes due to be delivered from 2006 to 2011. Shares in Qantas, which is around 17-percent-owned by British Airways Plc , last traded 0.6 percent lower at A$3.31 in a weaker overall market.


1st Dec 2003, 10:38
SYDGIRL...You don't have to be so hurtful...Anyhow, its a good name. (The board obviously have taste).

1st Dec 2003, 10:43
The airline will use new Airbus A320 aircraft from June next year and will eventually have an all-A320 fleet.

Jetstar will fly new A320 aircraft featuring 177 leather seats and an inflight audio entertainment system.

The domestic leisure market is growing rapidly and now represents over 60 per cent of all passengers. Jetstar will concentrate on growing this market with value fares while opening up new destinations.

The Qantas Board had last week approved a number of initiatives for Qantas’ domestic operations, including the:

· selection of Impulse Airlines as the operating entity for the low cost carrier;

· placement of an initial order for 23 A320s for the low cost carrier;

· reorganisation of the full service Qantas domestic airline into a two-class jet operation on all services, using only two aircraft types – Boeing 737s and 767s; and

· acquisition of an additional five Boeing 737-800 aircraft for the full service domestic airline to replace the airline’s last 737-300s and further modernise the fleet.

Using Impulse as the operating entity and with new aircraft, new slimline seats, a new booking system and innovative products, Qantas is confident Jetstar will be the lowest cost operator in Australia.

The start-up of Jetstar will add to the overall strength of the Qantas flying product, which currently comprises:

· Qantas International, offering 540 services each week to 77 destinations in 33 countries;

· Australian Airlines, the full service international leisure carrier, offering 50 flights each week to 11 destinations in six countries;

· Qantas Domestic, offering more than 2,500 flights each week; and

· QantasLink, the regional airline, offering more than 2,500 flights each week.

The purchase of the A320s and 737-800s will not stress the company’s balance sheet.

We will remain within our desired gearing level. The domestic market is strong and the international market is returning quickly from the effects of SARS and the war in Iraq. All our businesses are profitable.

Jetstar will begin selling seats in February 2004 and start flying in May 2004, using 14 Boeing 717s currently operated by Impulse Airlines under the QantasLink brand. The first Airbus A320 will be delivered in June 2004 and Jetstar will, over time, move to an all A320 fleet.

While the initial order is for 23 A320s, we can acquire more of these aircraft as Jetstar grows. As we said in October, Jetstar will operate a minimum of 23 aircraft by mid-2005.

The A320 family is used by two of the world’s most successful low cost carriers, Jetblue and EasyJet, and it has an outstanding track record, including excellent fuel efficiency.

The airline’s route network and fare structure will be announced in January 2004.

The Board’s approval for the acquisition of an additional five Boeing 737-800s highlights the full service airline’s strategy of simplifying its fleet to include only two aircraft types – Boeing 737s and 767s.

The new 737-800s, to be delivered next year, will replace the airline’s last 737-300s. The 737-800 is more fuel efficient and cost effective than the 737-300 and it offers more spacious cabins, more headroom and larger windows.

Qantas has taken delivery of 20 737-800s since February 2002 and another three of these aircraft will join the fleet by the middle of next year.

The additional five aircraft approved by the Board will take the total Qantas 737-800 fleet to 28. This will result in a large, uniform and more modern fleet for the full service airline and this will deliver further improvements to utilisation, reliability and on-time performance.

The full service Qantas domestic airline will continue to offer award-winning inflight entertainment – including video news, movies, sitcoms and sport shows as well as up to 10 channels of audio programs – and the popular Frequent Flyer program.

Qantas will maintain its ongoing investment in domestic product, both in the air and on the ground, including the extensive network of Qantas Club lounges.

Business and leisure travellers using the full service airline will continue to have access to an extensive range of discount fares. As well, the simpler domestic fare structure introduced in June has allowed travellers to mix and match one way fares to combine affordability and flexibility to better suit individual needs.

1st Dec 2003, 11:06
Can anyone from Impulse clarify whether the crewing arrangements are official ?

1st Dec 2003, 11:18
all i have to say is they chose the cheap aeroplane for the cheap setup...

speaks for itself

1st Dec 2003, 11:23
Aussie2, if it's been announced to the ASX, then it is 'official'. :mad:

Hold on to your horses boys and girls, this one is about to get 'fun'. :rolleyes: :suspect: :{

1st Dec 2003, 11:28
Try this one




The Roo Rooter :E :ok:

Fris B. Fairing
1st Dec 2003, 11:34
If you can't operate a Lockheed product I suppose the next best thing is to name the airline after a Lockheed product:



1st Dec 2003, 11:36


1 December 2003


Australia’s newest domestic airline, Jetstar, today unveiled its brand and livery
featuring a design inspired by the Southern Cross.
Chief Executive of Jetstar, Alan Joyce, said the brand and livery had been
developed after extensive customer research that covered not only design
elements, but also the image positioning of the airline.
“Jetstar will offer a fresh and open approach to air travel, and be committed to
offering its customers the lowest fares,” Mr Joyce said.
“Jetstar is about simplicity and fun, and we wanted our brand to encapsulate
those qualities.”
He said the Jetstar brand design was based on the Southern Cross, with the
orange star in the Jetstar logo representing the smallest star of the Cross,
Epsilon Crucis – the only five point star in the Southern Cross as it is
represented on the Australian flag.
“The airline’s colours – orange, silver and black – were chosen for their bold,
modern feel. It is a combination that appeals to all age groups, and really sets
us apart from any other airline,” Mr Joyce said.
Sydney-based design firm Moon Design and Melbourne advertising agency,
Dewey and Horton collaborated on the design with Jetstar’s marketing


1st Dec 2003, 11:51

You certainly got it right there !!

Moderate to severe turbulence ahead.

Regards A2

1st Dec 2003, 11:52
Yes, things are certainly going to get interesting. Any Impulse crew out there heard anything or are you already celebrating?

ps. Keg and Hugh Jarse: looks like I might get to keep that $50 and my left nut:ok: phew:) .

1st Dec 2003, 11:53
What the hell was wrong with something uniquly Ozzie?

Some interesting JetStar search results!




1st Dec 2003, 11:57
So whats the likely recruitment implications for GA drivers. Will it reslut in much mvement upwards, ie will it create new slots for biys and girls moving up from GA or will so many ex AN drivesr fill them not much will change for us.

What about the 717's, will they go?? surely it would be silly to put a 177 seat airbus on a route that averging 110 seats which is ideal for the 717.

Skyhawk XP
1st Dec 2003, 12:22
It appears to me that the B717 is being replaced by a bigger capacity aircraft. This will require more passengers to justify the aircraft and there are no prizes for guessing how and where they will come from.

The move could be part of a greater re-organisation within QF.

Without a big increase in the number of passengers flying and with the use of larger aircraft it is hard to see many new job opportunities for pilots in the near future.

Growth and expansion at DJ could slow down.

1st Dec 2003, 12:26
Now it's time to see if AIPA really have any cohuna's. Industrial action time? You betcha....

Truth Seekers Int'nl
1st Dec 2003, 12:34
Now it's time to see if AIPA really have any cohuna's. Industrial action time? You betcha....

not in a million years. like the AOA up here, no balls and never will have. watched from a distance during the AFAP brawl in '89. big promises from them but in the end no action -why? -AIPA is made up of QF management clones. good luck to the young guys about to get a BIG break in this great industry!

1st Dec 2003, 12:35
There is no possible legal action that is either safe or sensible at this time. Dixon stated in a letter to pilots that they have been summarily excluded from the deal and no correspondence will be entered into. Game over everyone -- Impulse crew it, domestic mainline evaporates. :(

1st Dec 2003, 12:51
Dow Jones

Australia's Qantas: Each Airbus Has US$50M Tag

SYDNEY (Dow Jones)--Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd. said Monday it ordered 23 A320 aircraft from Airbus.

Qantas said its new low-cost domestic carrier, which will be called Jetstar, will use the A320s.

Jetstar will compete in Australia with no-frills carrier Virgin Blue.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon wouldn't value the Airbus contract, but told reporters each plane has a price tag of about US$50 million. Analysts had expected Qantas to purchase just nine aircraft before the launch, and to have 23 in the Jetstar fleet by mid 2005.

The bidding between Airbus and Boeing Co. had been "very aggressive", Dixon said, with Qantas very pleased with the price paid.

Dixon said he is confident Jetstar won't take market share from the full service Qantas domestic operation and can conduct business alongside rival Virgin Blue.

The domestic leisure market is tipped to grow 15%-20%, he said.

Dixon added that the domestic market is "quite strong" at the moment, with local operations to provide a record 2003-04 profit for Qantas.

Qantas isn't launching Jetstar "from a position of panic" or from the competitive threat posed by Virgin Blue, he said.

All Qantas operations are profitable at the moment, Dixon added.


1st Dec 2003, 13:12
Very neighbourly of Lockheed Martin to permit Qantas to use the name of the Lockheed C-140 to distinguish Australias' new El-Cheapo domestic airline.I'm surprised that the name"Jetstar" is not protected by a tangle of legal razorwire.

1st Dec 2003, 13:15
Is this the next section of the trojan horse qantas are installing?
As regards the name,when bmibabi started up customers were accidently going to a porn site with nearly the same name.
Bmibabi pilots now do 4 sector days includind going to the east med,there are no crew meals loaded so you take your own sarnies and thermos.Is that the same in VB.

1st Dec 2003, 13:19
Hoss, what have they got to celebrate? Working flat out and as a captain earning less than a Longhaul S/0 or CSM in mainline, I pass my heartfelt condolences out to them all. Just wish they agreed to work for what they are worth.

1st Dec 2003, 13:27
"...... servicing the pleasure market....." can't wait to see what they show on them back o seat vid screens!!:p :p

1st Dec 2003, 13:31
One aeroplane type, one operator, one only QF LCC. Bye bye Impulse.
Yeh Right Pete Conrad, whatever you reckon mate !!!!!
:p HaHaHaHa !

Sperm Bank
1st Dec 2003, 13:40
Trojan horse may be correct franga. All the same I like the paint scheme and colour. Certainly is eye catching. I also like the fact they are putting inflight entertainment on board. Jetblue in the US has a telly on every seat in their 320's. This will hopefully wake up the top end in Virgin to do the same. Syd to Per with no entertainment is a joke!

I haven't seen any figures for the pilot's so before we fly off on a tangent we should probably wait and see. I don't believe Mr Dixon's comments much at all these days. He is directly attacking the mainline boys, no question.

1st Dec 2003, 13:51
Dont get too excisted about the inflight entertainment Spermy - it is audio only...same as DJ.

Sperm Bank
1st Dec 2003, 13:53
Thanks pax. Thats a shame but it was a nice dream while it lasted.

1st Dec 2003, 13:57
From the Rockewll Collins website back in Sep 2003

The cabins of the new Virgin Blue Boeing 737s will feature Rockwell Collins' Programmable Audio Video Entertainment System (PAVES™), offering overhead video on 10.4-inch retractable monitors and 24 channels of high-fidelity digital in-seat audio programming. The monitors offer passengers wide viewing angles with crisp and bright picture quality.


The Roo Rooter:E :ok:

Home Brew
1st Dec 2003, 14:06
What great timing!!

Announce the name and logo, togther with startup details the very same week the opposition floats on the stockmarket. Wait for further announcements this and next week, which might make the new shares flounder.

I gotta hand it to the man, what a clever idea!! :ooh:

1st Dec 2003, 14:37

If the salary rumours are anything like true, I cant imagine many other professional groups "out celebrating" after agreeing to significantly less than the going rate for their upcoming salary and conditions.

Going Boeing
1st Dec 2003, 14:41
Sounds like the A320 cabin will be like Jet Blue in the US - no galleys fitted which means extra room (Jet Blue's seat pitch is superior to all other Low Wages airlines) Screen in the back of each seat with entertainment provided by Direct TV (data link from ground with mainly re-runs of sit-coms).

May cause some late nights for that balding little whinger at DJ.

1st Dec 2003, 15:02
Good luck to all the crew at Impulse with the launch of Jetstar.

Great bunch of people who deserve all the best!

No I dont work with Impulse but had a lot to do with them in a recent previous job before moving to Brisvegas as my log in name suggests

All the best guys!

Labia Majora
1st Dec 2003, 15:39
Gotta agree with Keg and Oz2 on this one...

"Fasten your seatbelts folks........we've just entered the sh!t"

So it begins...the era of flying for peanuts...

1st Dec 2003, 16:13
How can ANYONE be happy that we now have third world (or worse) wages to fly jets in our country?
Regardless of who gets to fly them we have taken another GIANT leap backwards in this industry!
A very sad future awaits all those aspiring young airline pilots in this country.
There are no winners here amongst the pilot groups,just losers.
Whoever gets to fly it may be over the moon initially at that shiny new jet they get to sit in or that promotion they just got but when the novelty wears off and the reality sets in that all current and future jet jocky's in this country are screwed it will be too late.
If there was ever a time for ALL pilots in Australia to get together and fight the REAL enemy (greedy bloody management) then this is it!

:sad: :sad: :sad:

Chilli Muscle
1st Dec 2003, 16:13
When QF shorthaul is absorbed or reduced to a token gesture within 5 years maybe there will be the opportunity to transfer from Jetstar to longhaul. Any bets ?.

1st Dec 2003, 16:58
Guess you saw the 7.30 Report too Chilli?? Like it or not whether you work for QF, Virgin, Impulse, Kendall, Eastern, Sunnies, AirNorth, GAM or any GA operator, today you got shafted. Got plenty of vaso for the times ahead? You'll need it....:mad:

1st Dec 2003, 17:42

SYDNEY (Reuters) -Qantas Chief Financial Officer Peter Gregg Qantas put the cost of the Airbus planes at about $1.15 billion -- "if you multiply 23 by about $50 (million) you get an idea" -- adding that the start-up capital cost of the airline was about A$100 million ($72 million).

However, Qantas was widely expected to have negotiated at least a 20 percent discount on the sticker price, said one analyst who requested anonymity.

Airbus was also believed to have agreed to find buyers for Qantas' aging Boeing 717s as they were retired in years ahead, the analyst said.

The new discount carrier, to be based in Melbourne, would have a workforce of about 2,000, Jetstar Chief Executive Alan Joyce said. About 600 of the new airline's staff would migrate from regional carrier Impulse, a unit Qantas acquired two years ago, with 1,400 new hires.

Dixon downplayed concerns that Australia, a market of only 20 million people, was not big enough to handle Jetstar without cannibalizing Qantas's full-service main carrier.

"We believe they can both operate side-by-side, along with Virgin, and all be successful," he said.

Qantas' fleet is dominated by Boeing aircraft, accounting for 72 percent of its 179 planes, including 50 737s. It has four Airbus A330s with another nine on order and 12 Airbus A380 planes due to be delivered from 2006 to 2011.


1st Dec 2003, 17:50
With Impulse now heading in a different direction,and mainline eventually going 738,anyone with any ideas on how Qantaslink jet services will be structured in the future(if there is one?)
Both the Bus and 738 seem a little big for any of the current route structure.:cool: :cool:

QF skywalker
1st Dec 2003, 18:19
bye bye 146 for QFLINK - Hello Dash 8-400's.

Col. Walter E. Kurtz
1st Dec 2003, 20:02
Well, nobody did anything about it whilst it was in the works.

1st Dec 2003, 20:10

What legal basis would your industrial action be based on?


“How can ANYONE be happy that we now have third world (or worse) wages to fly jets in our country?”

Do you actually know what the pay and conditions are like at Myanmar Airways? Do you know anyone flying for Bouraq or Jatayu? Do you honestly think Impulse wages are third world? Or should you retract your ignorant statement?

The debate here on pprune just proves the totally insular nature still pervading the Oz airline scene.

Try living in London on a JMC wage or New York City on a Jetblue wage or Atlanta on an Airtran wage. Melbourne with Jetstar – not too bad.

Buster Hyman
1st Dec 2003, 20:11
Err....this is a tad interesting!!!!

[url]http://www.jetstarairlines.com/ (]www.jetstarairlines.com/sports_logo.jpg[/URL)


About Jetstar International

Jetstar International Airways promises it's pilots the latest aircraft, widest variety of worldwide flight destinations, and latest pilot aids to navigation. We also provide a host of informative background information connecting our pilots with the people, countries and cultures in the JetStar world.

Flying from 4 US Hubs and 5 International Hubs, JetStar provides flight opportunities throughout the world. With it's modern aircraft fleet, including recently modified CONCORDE's, the airline provides an environment of challenge and adventure for it's pilot base.

Jetstar's U.S. Hubs

Dallas/Ft. Worth - Providing service through America's "Heartland" with worldwide connections and over 100 daily flight operations!

Hartsfield/Atlanta - Serving America's Southeast featuring connections to the Caribbean and Latin America with over 90 daily flight operations!

J F Kennedy/New York - Serving the Northeast and Europe with CONCORDE connections and over 120 daily flight operations!

San Francisco International - JetStar's "gateway to the Pacific" serves America's west coast, Hawaii and the Orient with over 85 daily flight operations!

Jetstar's International Hubs

Pearson Int'l./Toronto, Canada - JetStar's Toronto Hub covers Canada from coast to coast and features a special Northway service in Canada.

Heathrow/London, UK - JetStar's European Hub serving the European continent with over 100 daily flights, CONCORDE connections and special service in the Mediterranean from Mallorca!

Kenyatta Int'l./Nairobi, Kenya - JetStar covers the African Continent with connections to Europe and the Middle East and over 70 daily flight operations!

Changi Int'l./Singapore - JetStar's Asia Hub, located at the "crossroads of Asia" with CONCORDE connections serves Asia and Oceana with over 140 daily flight operations!

Skyhawk XP
1st Dec 2003, 20:30
Buster unfortunately 'Microsoft or joystick airlines' do not employ load controllers. BTW where is EW loco ???

1st Dec 2003, 21:08
Tues "Melbourne Age"

Jetstar readies for low-cost air battle
By Philip Hopkins
December 2, 2003

Qantas will spend close to $1.6 billion on new aircraft for its low-cost domestic airline Jetstar, with the battle to take on Virgin Blue set to begin in May.

Jetstar will emerge from Impulse Airlines - acquired by Qantas in 2001 - at first using its fleet of Boeing 717s before taking delivery in June of the first of 23 new Airbus A320s.

About half of Jetstar's 2000 new employees will be based in Victoria, some working out of the former Ansett terminal at Melbourne Airport.

The airline is expected to undercut some Virgin Blue fares and aims to keep costs low by providing cheap internet deals and not offering free in-flight meals or assigned seating.

It will fly routes to holiday centres around Australia, but will rely on a largely generic image to attract customers.

Revealing the livery and branding for Jetstar yesterday, Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said focus groups had rejected terms such as "Joey or Skippy" Air. "We had literally thousands of suggestions, many from our staff and from every amateur marketing manager around Australia," he said.

"(They were) mainly confined to Australian animals and Oz Air and Air Oz and Jet Oz and Go Aussie, Oi, Oi, Oi (and) Matilda. Research did say, which surprised us a little bit, that the Oz Matilda type thing was not necessarily what Australians want at this stage."

He said the A320 family was used by two of the world's most successful low-cost carriers, Jetblue and easyJet, and it had an outstanding track record.

Dismissing fears Jetstar would cannibalise Qantas's full-service operations, Mr Dixon said the domestic leisure market would grow by 15 to 20 per cent as a result. "The domestic leisure market is growing rapidly and now represents over 60 per cent of all passengers," he said.

"Jetstar will concentrate on growing this market with value fares while opening up new destinations."

He said Qantas was expected to post its best-ever domestic profit this financial year, while Jetstar would make a small loss in its first year, but would be profitable "as we go forward".

"Our international operations are also improving very strongly," he said. "We have got a good handle on our costs and we are still driving them down."

Jetstar's general manager Alan Joyce said the airline aimed to generate 70 per cent of bookings over the internet, while its fare and route structure would be announced in January.

The brand design was based on the Southern Cross and the airline's colours - orange, silver and black- were chosen for their "bold, modern feel".with AAP


Tues "The Australian"

Cheap air triggers union fear
By Steve Creedy and Stefanie Balogh
December 02, 2003

Travellers will reap a bonanza of cheaper seats next year as Qantas's new low-cost airline hits the skies, but unions fear it may be on the back of reduced conditions and wages for the airline's workers.

The fares will be lower, but the new airline is expected to have slightly reduced leg room and no seating allocation.

It will operate its own reservation system and is expected to sell at least 70 per cent of its fares on the internet. Check-in and baggage handling will be simplified - there will be no priority or connecting baggage - and, as on its competitor, Virgin Blue, passengers will have to buy their food.

Fares and route structures will not be revealed until early next year, but executives vowed yesterday to undercut Virgin Blue's costs and fares.

The airline yesterday confirmed it had placed an initial order for 23 Airbus A320 aircraft worth about $US1.15billion ($1.58 billion) to equip the new airline, which will be known as JetStar.

It will spend about $100 million setting up the new carrier, which it expects to run at a small loss in the first year.

But as they arranged to hold detailed talks with unions about pay and conditions, executives warned workers would need to accept similar packages to other low-cost carriers. The new airline will launch with a combination of Boeing 717 aircraft and 177-seat A320s, using former low-cost carrier Impulse Airlines as a vehicle. About 600 Impulse workers transferring to the new airline will be the only employees to come from Qantas.

Executives suggested yesterday that the Impulse cost structure would be used as a basis for negotiating wages and conditions at JetStar. "When we took over Impulse two years ago, we kept their cost structure in Qantas," chief executive Geoff Dixon said. "People have always worked under that cost structure and we've kept the airline there for a rainy day." ACTU senior industrial officer Richard Watts said unions would be willing to negotiate "in similar terms" as they had for the Australian Airlines agreements. "Where the work is the same they would expect the same remuneration, and where it is different they are open to discuss those issues with Qantas," Mr Watts said.

JetStar will compete head-to-head with the mainline carrier on some routes, including major trunk routes. It would also start flying on routes never operated by an Australian airline, new chief executive Alan Joyce said.

Yesterday's indications of a wide network that included trunk routes was also seen as good news for travellers.

"If you're going to be growing the market by 20 per cent you've got to be putting a lot more cheap fares out in the marketplace," said Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation managing-director Peter Harbison.


Tues "The Australian"

Qantas meets Virgin head on
By Geoff Easdown
December 02, 2003

QANTAS pledged yesterday that its new discount airline, Jetstar, would be the lead discounter in any domestic fares war.

Melbourne-based Jetstar, which begins operations next May, would be "more low-cost than Virgin", said Qantas boss Geoff Dixon.

At a media conference, he declared "if we are going to be cannibalised, we might as well cannibalise ourselves".

Mr Dixon told reporters that:

A TOTAL of $US1.15 Billion ($A1.59 billion) would be spent on 23 Airbus planes;

STAFF numbering 2000 would be employed nationwide, 1000 in Melbourne and 600 would transfer from the Qantas Impulse brand;

JETSTAR planes would be seen on most inner-city services. The full route network and fare structure would be revealed next month.

Mr Dixon said existing Qantas jobs would not suffer, nor would staff be transferred to Jetstar which would have a lower pay scale than Qantas.

He did confirm that Qantas frequent flyers would be able to "burn" their points with the new airline. But any decision about Jetstar awarding travel points through the Qantas rewards program has yet to be decided.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had also responded to complaints from business travellers and would scrap the all-economy experiment it introduced on some routes two years ago.

He said five new Boeing 737-800 aircraft would be introduced as two class aircraft and would replace older 737-300 planes.

Jetstar will be modelled on the successful overseas budget carriers, Ryanair, Easyjet and Jetblue.

Passengers will not get allocated seating or enjoy priority baggage services. Like overseas carriers, passengers will choose their own seats on a first-come, best-seat arrangement.

Qantas will commit an extra $100 million to Jetstar, on top of the $1.5 billion bill for new planes, to cover start-up costs.

Mr Dixon said Qantas debt-to-equity gearing would rise by 1.5 percentage points to a healthy ratio of 50 per cent.

Former Aer Lingus and Ansett executive Alan Joyce, 37, will run Jetstar with an executive team that includes former Ryanair staff. The Qantas gamble comes as Virgin Blue seeks to raise about $550 million in an initial share sale to help fund its expansion.

Its scrip will make its debut on the Australian Stock Exchange next Monday.

Mr Dixon said the domestic leisure market represented more than 60 per cent of all passengers.

After his initial quip, Mr Dixon said later: "We are confident this won't cannibalise our business in any meaningful way.

The first Airbus A320 will be delivered in June next year and Jetset will progressively move from its launch fleet of Impulse-sourced fleet of 17 Boeing 717 jets.

Qantas shares rose 1c to $3.34 after falling 3c after the Jetstar announcement.


1st Dec 2003, 21:39
Thanks Geoff Dixon. My hard work as a FA for Impulse/ACC and you as part of the QF Group has all been for a "rainy day". [email protected]

1st Dec 2003, 21:50

As you see the wages as more than fair (particularly as you say, living in cheap old Melbourne ) why dont you suggest lower wages, you [email protected] !
One thing everyone on the boards CAN agree with is this will be a negative (ultimately) for all Oz pilots, no matter which car park you happen to park in.

1st Dec 2003, 21:53
Tues "Sydney Morning Herald"

JetStar aims to clip Virgin's wings
By Scott Rochfort
December 2, 2003

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon yesterday denied the hurried and expensive start-up of its low-cost carrier JetStar had come from a "position of panic", or was related to Virgin Blue's burgeoning share of the domestic aviation market.

Instead, Mr Dixon boldly claimed the Qantas budget offshoot would be "the lowest cost airline in Australia by some distance" when it commences flights next May and would be profitable in its second year.

With the Melbourne-based airline set to have an initial start-up cost of $100 million and formed out of the shell of the Qantas-owned Impulse Airlines, Qantas also confirmed it had placed an order for 23 177-seat Airbus 320s for the airline, worth $1.6 billion.

All of the A320s are expected to be delivered by mid-2005, with JetStar initially using Qantas's soon-to-be-retired fleet of 14 Boeing 717s.

At JetStar's official naming ceremony yesterday, Mr Dixon said: "JetStar's cost base, when you take in the efficiency of the aircraft, the current Impulse deal, the product innovations they have, will without a doubt be lower than Virgin's."

Tipping JetStar to post a potentially "very, very small loss" in its first year of operation, Mr Dixon said the cost of setting up JetStar would only affect Qantas's overall debt to equity gearing by up to 1.5 per cent, and ruled out any future need for capital raisings.

In contrast to his past comments over the viability of a third airline, Mr Dixon said the domestic market was strong enough to support three profitable airlines, particularly on leisure-holiday based routes.

JetStar chief executive Alan Joyce said: "A large element of this is through growth in the market and we believe that both carriers can grow and survive. We believe that there will be growth for both carriers and our projections going forward for the domestic market are that we can grow in the region of 7 to 10 per cent."

Mr Dixon also scoffed at suggestions the new airline could result in job losses in Qantas mainline business.

While he conceded JetStar would "cannibalise" some of Qantas's existing services, Mr Dixon said the ordering of five new Qantas Boeing 737-800 aircraft proved he wanted to grow its existing domestic operations.

"We have no intention of reducing staff or reducing our services in any way. We believe the market is that strong."

Mr Dixon also gave the most upbeat summary of Qantas operations, since last May's SARS-induced aviation crisis.

"All elements of the Qantas business are travelling very well. They are all profitable and I would say this year our domestic PBT [profit before tax] will be a record . . . and we've got international operations which are also improving very strongly."

Virgin Blue's head of commercial operations David Huttner said predictions JetStar would operate from a lower cost base were questionable.


1st Dec 2003, 22:30
Jetstar = Jetblue?

All economy A320s
Slimline leather seats
Entertainment system

If Jetstar uses the Jetblue model then they should do well.

I have used Jetblue twice in the last couple of years and they were quite impressive.

Far superior to anything I have experianced on Northworst Airlines, United or American.

Despite negative comments about lower salaries - Jetstar can only be positive for current Impulse, ex-AN, waiting wannabies and newbies and for the industry overall.


Red Hot Chili Pepper
1st Dec 2003, 23:02
Australia 2.

A little paranoid are we.

1st Dec 2003, 23:20
Australia 2.

Thank you for contributing your intellect to this thread. What a well-constructed argument.

If I thought the wages offered by Jetstar were fair, why on earth would I suggest being paid less?

Throwing insults at someone on pprune, such as you have, is like pissing in a business suit. It may feel good but nobody will notice.

The Enema Bandit
2nd Dec 2003, 00:02
Does anyone know if Alan Joyces wage is low cost too? Wirraway, don't you ever go to bed?

2nd Dec 2003, 02:38
Oicur, subtle action may be the order of the day. Plenty of ways to carry that one through. I am an army of one....

We aren't hearing much from the VB guys about this? You blokes nervous? You should be. You thought your wages were the lowest? Well, not any more. You have just been significantly undercut too.

I betcha that whinger Godfrey noticed and is just rubbing his hands together thinking that he can reduce your pay too....

Kaptin M
2nd Dec 2003, 03:40
Forget about AIPA doing anything at all, they have been huffing and puffing for months and months - in spite of the many posts HERE on PPRuNe alerting QANTAS pilots of Dixon/Oldmeadow`s strategies.

My predictions are :
Expect to see AIPA representing only the 744 (and perhaps A380) pilots within 3-5 years;
Jet Star to be crewed by mainly ex-AN A320 pilots initially, with the "backbone" (and I use that term loosely) consisting of ex-AN Dispute scabs, line pilots coming from the ex-AN F/O ranks. (There was a post wrt an ex-AN A320 scab, now QF F/O being promoted out of seniority some months back, on these pages);
Australian will be grown, to eventually take those pilots (and their flying) out of AIPA.
So much for the pilots.

This is also about QF divesting itself of the millions of accumulated Frequent Flyer points, that are becoming a liability.
If you are a QF FF`er, forget about using those points for domestic travel within a couple of years. I forecast that they will probably be usable on ONLY the longest international sectors, and then, probably in conjunction with an additional $$ payment.

A bloodless coup for Dixon!

Douglas Mcdonnell
2nd Dec 2003, 04:53
Leaves a few peoples interpretations of what was going to happen a bit exposed now.

Cheereo DM

2nd Dec 2003, 04:55
Have to agree with you KAp, AIPA is still talking about meetings when the IPG and LCC mgt are finished, concluded and off at the pub.

Isn't it great though that AIPA negotiated 'convergence' with Virgin salaries on the 737 only to have QF further undercut them. Incedentally those same salaries are identical to those paid by Ansett to 737 - 300 Captains in their 1999 EBA! Yes, AIPA are a very 'powerful' union.

Now that the dye has been cast it will be interesting to see how AIPA responds. I suspect they will simply go quiet on the issue and go back to setting up LOL insurance for over 50's.

I hope I am wrong, but so far they have played a monotonously predictable strategy, except for the part where they encouraged pilots to e-mail the chief pilot and the Chairwoman. In doing so they effectively dropped their pants for QF mgt to have a really good look at their support level, 600 I believe out of 2200. That part I did not even think AIPA would be stupid enough to play. I just wish I could play poker with these guys, given that they are mostly 400 captains I could clean up! (psst. what cards have you got mate.....)

The Voice
2nd Dec 2003, 05:12
just a quick note reference the livery ... how very 'GO' or 'ORANGE" ... next thing they'll have their own TV show too !!

Of course, us poor northerners will have to wait for hell to freeze over before anything resembling an airfare competition to all ports from Oz out of here materialises ...

Buster Hyman
2nd Dec 2003, 05:37
Skyhawk XP.

Fair comment, but in the virtual world, I'm not a load controller....;)

I'm a cross between Geoff Dixon & Leisuresuit Larry!!! In fact, you can hardly tell us apart!:}

2nd Dec 2003, 06:24
Airbus was also believed to have agreed to find buyers for Qantas' aging Boeing 717s as they were retired in years ahead, the analyst said

What the? So three years is "aging"?

Also I think the seat pitch will be somewhere in the vicinity of 29" a far cry from the 32-34" on the 717s. The pax will not be pleased! Also there will only be audio entertainment. What's the point of just audio? Especially when they can tap into the Qantas entertainment network and 'borrow' programing.

Also if this is to be totally all one class budget style what will all the corporate pax and top level frequent flyers think? We have MANY on the BNE-MKY, BNE-ROK and Tassie routes. I can see maybe some 734s going to HBA but what about the rest? Is Qantas just going to turn their back on this market? They'd be mad.

2nd Dec 2003, 06:40
Slightly off topic but I had to chuckle over Sunrise's consecutive scrolling headlines this morning.

"Report finds airports 'launch pads for terrorism'.........QANTAS to launch Jetstar in May......."

2nd Dec 2003, 08:36
Anyone have any ideas what's going to happen to NJS in all this?
I've heard the 717's are going. Surely 320's are too big for some of the 717 routes. Perhaps NJS will take over with their 146's or with the new embraer which is rumoured to be their new choice of a/c?? :confused:

2nd Dec 2003, 10:37
Frontier in the US is an up market LCC operating the A320. I guess similar to Jetstar will be.

Cap first year pay Gross USD $84341 = 115795 AUD.
FO “ USD $37953 = 52105 AUD.

The highest pay rates after 5 years are 112502 (154443) and 67501(92665).

This is more than Jetblue 52000 (71389) (FO NYC !!!!) and lots more than Airtran.

This is an example of where the US is going with regards to new airlines where the lions share of pilots will be employed in the future.

Col. Walter E. Kurtz
2nd Dec 2003, 10:53
Why no A318's to solve the 'too small for the A320', I mean CCQ and all

Douglas Mcdonnell
2nd Dec 2003, 11:34
Come on Ditzy Boy. Its only another 50 or so customers to look after.

Like the paint scheme!!


2nd Dec 2003, 13:45
Whats happening with that other potential minardi racing team
locost outfit? Is it the same mob that had EAL 747-200 s
based at bournemouth in england,before they sold out?

Don Esson
2nd Dec 2003, 17:59
'The Enema Bandit' asked "Does anyone know if Alan Joyces wage is low cost too?"

As Mr Joyce has just been promoted to the Executive Committee of Qantas, you can bet all you like that he is certainly not low cost. On that consideration, he would be in the top dozen earners. I would think $350-$400k plus bonuses at a minimum. Wages at the top of QF's other LCC also bear little or no resemblance to 'low cost' llevels like those at the coal face (pilots excepted0 are being paid.
:E :E

2nd Dec 2003, 18:12
Pilots are very good at comparing the salaries they make to the salaries made by pilots working for other carriers around the world. Obvious references are made to DL, AA and BA in order to garner support for the “poverty wages” being paid in Oz.

Lets keep that same mindset when comparing the remuneration being paid to Joyce. I guarantee it will be significantly lower than his compatriot in similar airlines in the US and Europe.

2nd Dec 2003, 22:41
Wed "Melbourne Age"

Cannibal offspring Dixon's only choice
December 3, 2003
Stephen Bartholomeusz

Even though the market has had a fortnight to think, it still doesn't seem to "get" Geoff Dixon's decision to launch a low-cost carrier and risk cannibalising Qantas. The new carrier isn't something he wanted to do but something he had to do.

There are two reasons why Dixon had to launch the new carrier. The biggest is Virgin Blue; the less immediate is the prospect that a third player would enter the domestic market.

If Dixon did nothing, Virgin Blue would use its considerably lower cost structure to continuously erode Qantas's market share and, by taking volume from the full-service carrier on its key routes, eventually undermine its economics.

A high-cost, full-service network carrier is, as the assault of the value-based airlines (VBAs) in Europe has shown, highly sensitive to losses of volume on core routes.

Qantas has to remain a full-service, twin-class carrier to support its international business, but without radical change it would be unable to halt Virgin Blue's steady growth and would risk being terminally weakened over time.

The second threat would, if realised, be just as potent.

Virgin Blue isn't a traditional no-frills, deep-discount airline. Part of the explanation for the ease with which it filled the vacuum left by Ansett and moved smoothly to 30 per cent of the market is that its services are comparable to Qantas's economy class. They are low-frills services rather than no-frills services.

That deliberate positioning slightly upmarket of a traditional VBA has left an opening for someone to attempt to exploit. Whether it is formula-one team owner Paul Stoddart or someone else, Virgin Blue's success would eventually have attracted a new entrant.

The last thing Dixon needs is a three-cornered contest against two discount carriers with significant structural cost advantages over Qantas.

Both airlines might make less . . . but that would still be a better outcome than if a genuine third party gatecrashed the duopoly.
In the wake of the release on Monday of the first details of the new carrier - badged Jetstar - analysts appear to be concerned about its potential to cannibalise Qantas's full-service business.

While Dixon will no doubt try to finesse the "competition" between Jetstar and Qantas, and it is likely a third low-cost carrier will grow the price-sensitive end of the market, it is inevitable Jetstar will hit Qantas volumes and economics.

As Dixon said on Monday, however: "If we are going to be cannibalised, we may as well cannibalise ourselves."

Dixon is nothing if not pragmatic. Virgin Blue, and perhaps a new entrant, will slowly kill Qantas's domestic business unless Qantas does something to arrest the challenger's momentum.

The massive cost-cutting and efficiency programs under way within Qantas won't by themselves narrow the competitive gap sufficiently - even in the unlikely event its staff are prepared to reduce their wages and conditions - because of the need to continue to offer high-frequency, full-service, twin-class services on the trunk routes.

Jetstar is Dixon's solution. It will take business from Qantas - but that business would have gone to Virgin Blue or someone else anyway.

If Jetstar's cost structures are competitive with Virgin Blue - Dixon says they will be at least as good if not better - the group will at least retain some of that volume and revenue. If it can grow the market for low-cost travel and, perhaps, also put pressure on Virgin Blue and gain some leverage over its pricing in the process, Dixon would be ecstatic.

Jetstar will be based on Impulse Airlines, acquired by Qantas in 2001 in the lead-up to Ansett's fall. That simplifies a range of issues for Qantas, not the least of which are its labour costs. Impulse already has an enterprise agreement with its staff that is similar to Virgin Blue's.

While Dixon has denied that the launch of Jetstar will displace existing Qantas operations or lead to staff reductions above those already foreshadowed, it does offer the potential to migrate some of Qantas's less profitable routes to a much lower-cost platform.

In any event, if he were destined to lose volume and the premium in his pricing anyway, he is better off keeping some volume and margin than handing it all to Virgin Blue.

The Jetstar strategy does represent a venture into uncharted territory for Qantas. As Virgin Blue delights in reminding Qantas, no full-service carrier has been able to successfully launch and sustain a VBA sibling.

Given that most of the VBAs have been launched in multi-carrier markets rather than within a duopoly, however, it isn't inevitable that Jetstar will fail or that the strategy will be aborted because Jetstar is too successful.

It is in both carriers' interests not to get caught up in destructive competition - it isn't in Virgin Blue's interests to destabilise the domestic market by attacking Jetstar too fiercely and lowering prices substantially and generally.

One of the hallmarks of Virgin Blue's short history has been the intelligence and discipline of its execution of its business model. It has focused on profitable expansion rather than attempting to win low-margin volume for volume sake.

If both the major players are rational, and Dixon manages the level and mix of capacity within Jetstar and Qantas sensitively and finesses the shift of volume to Jetstar from a group perspective, both Qantas and Virgin Blue can continue to make good money from the domestic market without any of the airlines being damaged badly in the process.

Both might make less than under today's increasingly positive industry settings, but that would still be a better outcome than if a genuine third party gatecrashed the duopoly or if an increasingly desperate Qantas were ultimately backed into a corner and forced into subeconomic behaviour.

There is no certainty that the Jetstar strategy will be successful. It is certain that without it, however, the survival of Qantas's domestic business will be under increasing threat.

[email protected]


Jet Jockey
3rd Dec 2003, 04:53
Just reported teachers are going for a pay rise that will take the average teachers salary to $70,000 a year.
Why the "*** would you want to be a Pilot any more?

Willie Nelson
3rd Dec 2003, 06:04
Wonder if the silver liverie is more to do with the four or five extra seats it will provide due to paint savings or will this be something other than a bare metal finish?

Interested also in what some of the ACC boys and girls have to say about it........do share!


Buster Hyman
3rd Dec 2003, 06:08
I doubt if it will be a bare metal finish. Especially considering the composites used by Airbus. Just have a look at AA's A300's.

Don't get me wrong, I quite like the bare metal look, but not on Airbus aircraft!:8

Three Bars
3rd Dec 2003, 06:34
To those posters on Pprune who think that there is nothing wrong with the current trend towards downward pressure on pay and conditions, a little story:

There was once a little baby bird that fell out of its nest. It thought that it would die of the cold when a cow came along and sh*t right on top of it. The little bird thought that this would surely be the end, until it realised that the sh*t was nice and warm and it started to feel a lot better. So good, in fact, that it started to sing. A low flying crow heard the little baby bird singing and swooped down and ate it!

The moral of the story:

Those who put you in the sh*t are not necessarily your enemy. Those that get you out of the sh*t are not necessarily your friend. And if you're happy to live in the sh*t - don't sing about it.

There are many little baby birds singing in the sh*t on this forum, and the low flying crows are circling to feed off you one-by-one!

:* :* :* :*

Sheep Guts
3rd Dec 2003, 07:35
Looks like Jet Star, are getting the same kit as Jet Blues A320s leather interior and Entertainment system, I wonder if thryll get Direct TV or Fox Satelite aswell. Air Frontier in the States have A320s with Direct TV, apparently very popular.

Infact makes me wonder if Jet Blue is their model they intend to emulate partially, time will tell.


Dixon said he is confident Jetstar won't take market share from the full service Qantas domestic operation and can conduct business alongside rival Virgin Blue.

I think really its gotta take a cut of the QF domestic hasnt it, surely. I mean thats what LCCs do steel market and customers from Mainline Carriers. A bit short sighted I think. OF 737 jocks may need to start bidding for International or other Fleets in the near future.

Good Luck "JETSTAR"


3rd Dec 2003, 09:43
“If we are going to be cannibalised, we may as well cannibalise ourselves”.

Exactly. The whole aim of Jetstar is to reduce the growth in the high cost mainline (or reduce its market share) and expand the market share of the lower cost carrier.

Jet jockey. What a load of BS. Av teacher’s salaries at 70,000. It may have been reported that way but do you know what politics is all about. ACT third year teacher as of Sep 2003 - $43,470. NSW thirteenth year teacher - $59,000. Av teacher pay across the country is about $42,000. Get your facts straight.

Three Bars. I can assure you of one thing. Not a single ppruner/pilot/wage earner on the planet thinks that “there is nothing wrong with the current trend . . . . “

People are realistic though, and understand that although we would all like to be paid a kings ransom, the conditions on offer are beyond the control of ANY PROSPECTIVE PILOT looking at working for Jetstar. It is simply out of my hands and out of your hands too. We were not consulted.

Lets face it. The majority of pilots will be experienced and type rated on the Airbus – all will be Australian passport holders. A lot may be ex Ansett and some will be attracted to come from overseas. Some may come from outfits like Dragon air where they were employed direct from GA, or some European carriers like BMI or Easy jet.

A lot may decide the lifestyle or conditions are better where they are and will choose to stay put – Jetstar will not be the be all and end all of airlines to work for.

But it will be based in Oz and that will be reason enough for some folks.

I am ex AN, work in Asia on narrow body airliners for a major carrier and get paid less than the figures quoted at Jetstar. It will take me longer to get a command here and rent/cost of living is double than oz. I know of people at Silkair and Eva (and other carriers) in similar positions where a move to Jetstar would result in MORE disposable income, quicker commands and many would say better lifestyle. Some of these good folk have up to 7-8 thousand hours Airbus time including C and T.

So, I ask you, why wouldn’t I apply for a position at Jetstar.

Three Bars
3rd Dec 2003, 10:54

You wrote:

"Three Bars. I can assure you of one thing. Not a single ppruner/pilot/wage earner on the planet thinks that “there is nothing wrong with the current trend . . . . “"

Here's a selection.

Cruze Power wrote:

Oh my heart bleeds for the poor little 'soles (QF pilots) . Might have to defer that new car till next month. And as for those also on the inside, what...... should this be a surprise? Not. Maybe now they'll start to see some equity and realism in pay packets with some of their poorer, affiliated cousins.

Flyingins wrote:

"Would you turn down the offer to fly an A320 just so some bloke you never met can get his 737 command in 5 years instead of 10? I doubt it. Welcome to the real world, people. Not always fair, is it?"

Captain Stoobing wrote:

"QF would be mad if they didn't take advantage of these low wages. I personally think my licence is worth a bit more but I am not in the position where I have to think about it."

nomorecatering wrote:

"Some of you guys dont know or dont remember what its like to to be at the bottome of the food chain. Some of you guys are whinging about a measly $143,000 per year. God I'd like to be on that pittance."

longjohn wrote:

"The reality is that these pilots are well paid and enjoy even better conditions. If WE are to compete in the low cost game, then it must be on truly competitive terms, or else the company will simply look elsewhere."

TAY 611 wrote:

"low cost is just that...Low cost. Watch out you QF mainline guys the blow torch is being turned up on you very shortly..
It may be Jet connect (yep those cheap Kiwi's again) that will be the new operator and they will be pleased with their new NG's or Airbus."

James the 4th wrote:

"So if you want to be a tradey, go and good riddence. Leave the industry to us that still enjoy flying for a fair and equitable salary. I too will wave at you when I fly over and mutter "It must be hell down there." Get your head out of the sand and look what is happening around the world. You cant live in your sheltered workshop for ever. Go overseas and work for anyone over there and see how long it takes for you start missing Oz. Unless you are a complete slave to mammon you will be ready to come back at half pay in 2 years......"

dirtylittlefokker wrote:

"You guys at the White Rat MUST have seen it coming. There are MANY pilots out there who would kill to fly again for half of what you are getting, you are obviously unaware of what the situation is out there in the real world."

And finally from Next Generation:


What conclusion should I draw from such posts? By the way, these quotes were after about 10 minutes research. I'm sure there are many others.

I've said before... Supply and demand means that if nobody accepts the crap conditions that are on offer, then they may have to be increased. Is this realistic? Probably not ... but neither is it realistic to expect me to be happy that people are prepared to see my conditions be put under pressure just because they want to do my job for less.

:* :* :*

3rd Dec 2003, 11:31
3 Bars. Your list of derogatory and sometimes childish (next generation especially) comments posted here by ppruners in no way shows a willingness for employees to be paid less. Not a single post has made such a claim. In most cases the comments emanate from people whose main desire is to move up the chain and receive a HIGHER salary. Probably the same objectives you have. The comments made by Longjohn are extremely pertinent

The conclusion you should draw from these posts is that unfortunately there is a large amount of animosity towards QF pilots from many ppruners. This is sad but indicative of an industry slowly aligning itself with practices commonly seen throughout the rest of the world. There now exists a large gap between income levels at different airlines, something that did not exist many years ago.

Your final comment indicates that you neglected to read some of the points made in my post, or at least did not digest the information I presented. I will not bother re-writing it.

No one is attempting to do your job for less. No one is even attempting to do your job. Your employment at QF is secure. Your pay and conditions will not change as a result of Jetstar entering the market.

You have not answered my first question but nonetheless, I will ask you a second one. What outcome to the Oz industry would you like to have seen?

And one more bonus question 3 bars. QF 767 pilots have been quoted on pprune and elsewhere numerous times, as being “the lowest paid 767 pilots in the world”. What are your thoughts on this?

3rd Dec 2003, 16:17
Jetstar have removed the employment link from their website!!

Have they got the numbers already??:*
(or did you boys at Impluse have a hissy??):sad:

Sperm Bank
3rd Dec 2003, 16:50
Lets get a few facts straight. QF pilot's ARE NOT paid too much. Anyone who suggests otherwise is plain ignorant of economies of scale. They deserve every cent they get, as do the Virgin pilots. If the Impulse lads are going to work for a lower rate, I fail to see the relevance of that to other pilots. Trying to justify ones actions at the expense of another is futile and baseless. If it does in fact undermine the industry to which many of us have commited so much time, that will be a very sad thing indeed.

However getting on a high horse and attempting to give credence to (perceived) dubious actions by denegrating the pay and conditions of another group of pilot's is plain wrong.

To those of you willing to respond with posts indicating you think we are on easy street, please ponder this. The job you are doing right now, whatever the pay rate, how would you feel if a young sprog came along and offered their services for 30% less? So you fly a King Air for $50k a year, I come along and do it for $30k, does that now qualify me to call you overpaid? of course not.

Ignore the idiot comments comparing doctors etc. Most pilots spend alot longer than 6 years in below averge conditions to get the requirements for airline flying. There are a FEW who get the easy road, MOST do not. Yep doctors study for longer, pilots work for peanuts for longer to get experience. A doctor may see 5000 to 10,000 patients a year, a 737 pilot may fly over 100,000 passengers a year, big deal. Who's worth more?It's a vacuous comparison!

While we fight here among ourselves, the pathetic little no brainer bean counters in the respective organisations are rubbing their Mr Burns fingers together Laughing all the way to the bank. Divide and conquer!!!!! it works EVERY time. I think it will be some time before we wake up to this disgusting travesty and injustice. Don't sit in here rambling on about other pilots and their perceived unjust conditions, be pro-active and improve your own lot in life.

3rd Dec 2003, 17:00
What you are worth is the amount that someone else is prepared to take to do your job plus the cost of replacing you with this person (training, industrial action, incovenience, etc etc). There is not too much more to it.

Buster Hyman
3rd Dec 2003, 17:46
Three little words. Supply and demand. Nuff said.;)

Three Bars
3rd Dec 2003, 18:12

I do not intend to get into a slanging match with you and I try to avoid getting personal.

You seem to have taken offence at my last post. I was merely responding to your comment made directly to me that "not a single poster .. " and want to point out to you that plenty of people on this forum seem to have no problem with the idea of QF pilots "joining the real world". While they might want to earn more, it is the "and to hell with everybody else and their conditions" attitude that I find hard to take.

I wish that I could be as optimistic as you about Jetstar not affecting the pay and conditions of QF pilots. If it doesn't now - then it may well in the future. What do you think will happen to the 737 if Jetstar is a runaway success and suddenly routes become unprofitable for QF mainline domestic?

Airlines today don't give a damn about anything other than salary rates. To hear that mainline wages are too high when QF will probably post a record profit this year - think of those performance bonuses $$$$ boys - really gets me p*ssed off!

Regarding the value of QF 767 drivers, frankly, I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I work hard and I feel that I am entitled to the level of remuneration that has been decided on in the past and I resent those people who feel that we should have to do it for less just because they are prepared to.

Red Hot Chili Pepper
3rd Dec 2003, 20:46
“I am entitled to the level of remuneration that has been decided on in the past and I resent those people who feel that we should have to do it for less just because they are prepared to.”

Boy, would Milton Friedman be having a giggle at that one.

Market forces are a big factor in the Jetstar issue – it appears that AIPA understands this more than its members do.

Also, no one is asking you to work for less. Not even Dixon.

3rd Dec 2003, 21:49
Not being a pilot but an ATC I can see problems with this prepered to do the job for less mentality. In ATC we have had a similar yet different outcome. We have had the last few EBAs where the senior persons have agreed to the entire package because it gave them the 2.5% every 6 months pay rise and no losses in the way of any other entitlements but at the same time reducing the new players in the game massively in terms of pay. Take for example a trainee out of the college. The agreed to framework is a 50% cut in pay. Imagine that this happened to a Captain on $150k or so. That suddenly becomes $70K and a whole lot of trouble ensues with the bank man.

What seems maybe to some like a small problem and not even within your own ranks quickly becomes your problem when the new lower paid pilots/controllers/employees become the majority and get some sway and you find your entitlements getting bargained away ala Cathay Pacific. It will happen and I say I can't blame them. The experienced work force must make a stand and tell the employer once and for all that reductions in conditions are just not on.

4th Dec 2003, 03:02
Imagine that this happened to a Captain on $150k or so. That suddenly becomes $70K and a whole lot of trouble ensues I'd suggest that is happening with Jetstar (numbers aren't exact, but the principle is the same). The experienced work force must make a stand How? QF has started a new company in order to subvert current conditions. I'm sure the unions will argue in the Commission, but the IRC will accept QF stance that the new co. is a seperate entity which makes unviable routes viable etc. In fact, I 'd hazard a quess that any industrial action at QF wouldn't be legal. If AsA started a Low Cost Controller business, called TCASstar, in order to compete with other companies invited to tender for tower ops (if that ever happens), what would you guys do about it? Do you think there would be the will to resist if AsA says "we can't compete with Serco unless we use this LCC TCASstar". Not only that, some AsA people want to work for TCASstar, which offers journeyman instant upgrades to a flat salary that is an increase to them, but a decrease to an AsA equivalent. Or offers a return to their home state. It's a rock and a hard place. QF seem to think they can't compete with DJ long term unless they do this now. ie DJ will eventually chew QFs shorthaul business until it is no longer viable.
I truly think it's supply and demand at work. Eventually, there won't be enough people of the right calibre entering the profession, and there will be upward pressure on T&C (I hear that is already happening. Who'd consider recommending aviation to a young fella?). In the mean time, it will be painful. Is what's going on right or fair? Maybe not- but it's shades of grey, mate, never black and white!
Are AsA hiring?

Douglas Mcdonnell
4th Dec 2003, 04:16
Three bars. I was reading on another site about planning for stop work meetings. Im asuming that this is only a minority that wants this action. Please tell me that mainline is not so insular that know one there has heard about what happened in 89.

Hopefully Jetstar will be able to attract quite a few guys from overseas. A nice ticket back to Australian flying.

The way you talk Three Bs you would think that you were loosing your job. This hasnt and wont happen. You have been guaranteed by the CEO that you wont loose money or conditions. If you guys are worth so much and nothing is changing for you, what are you worried about?

I think the point that seems to have been missed by most mainline posters is that these decisions are driven by comercial realities, not the needs and wants of a particular group within the company. The board answers to the shareholders. World trends show that Low cost carriers are the way things are going. Its great to stand your digs and tell the world how much you are worth but just look around. Why did Ansett collapse 3 yrs ago?

You ever wonder why there is a lot of animosity towards some mainline contenders. Basically I think it comes down to your obvious lack of respect towards anyone who does not fly for mainline.

If thats what it means to be a big time professional then maybe its time to go back to putting up fences!!

Open your eyes three Bars.

Three Bars
4th Dec 2003, 06:06
So I can only assume DM that you see nothing wrong with a downward pressure on wages? QF mainline are set up to make a record annual profit but wages are still too high? The CEO's guarantee says "current conditions" - I wouldn't trust management as far as I could throw them about our future conditions. DM, if you work in Australia these pressures will eventually impact on you also as management pushs for ever lower and lower wages.

I hope that I have enough seniority to keep my job, whatever happens, but I don't know about those further down the list. If you can't see the problem with LCCs and its effect on the wages that we all (not just QF mainline) have, then I'm afraid it's you that have your eyes shut!

But if you really are happy - realistic, whatever you want to call it - with the downward pressure on pilot wages, then you prove my point for OhBehave and you will deserve what you get! If I lose my job or my conditions are seriously eroded, it will be you, and those like you, that I have to thank for it! :*

PS: On subsequent reading of your post, I assume that you are talking about the Qrewroom site and that probably makes you an Impulse pilot, since you can read our threads, but we can't read yours. Why don't you put a post on a Qrewroom thread making your argument - I would be interested to ses the response!

Red Hot Chili Pepper
4th Dec 2003, 08:06
Three bars,

You are a broken record. People on this forum have tried to point out to you that NO ONE WANTS TO SEE PAY AND CONDITIONS DECREASE in the oz airline industry. Oh Behave has alluded to this and you ignore it. Douglas Mcdonnell referred to commercial realities.

No one is volunteering to get paid less but people are realistic enough to understand that this is a reality that cannot be stopped by mere mortals such as pilots. What makes you think that the Oz airline industry could thumb its nose to the exact practices existing in every other airline market around the world?

I guess you are going to respond with “so you see nothing wrong with . . . . “ again. No, I think it is unfortunate that the airline industry is going down the LCC route but I realize that I cannot stop it.

4th Dec 2003, 08:10
42 cents per seat per hour. That is the difference between Impulse and QF Captains on aircraft of 177 seats. Thats how much you guys have saved Qantas. Add F/O costs and you are talking about less than $1 per seat per hour! :rolleyes:
To save QF $177 per flight, you guys have just increased the spiral dive of pay packets in this country. At least QF drivers now have a guarantee (admittedly not worth the paper it's printed on) that our pay and conditions are safe. Do you?

That said, I'm prepared to committ MY money and MY association resources to ensuring that you guys get a better deal over the next few years because ultimately, it serves ALL of us. Some look at the big picture and the next ten to fifteen years, some can't see past the next two. Impulse Captains saw the protection of their current incomes/mortgages, etc and probably 'sold' the issue to the F/Os on the basis of getting a command upgrade- and therefore a good healthy pay rise- when all the new aircraft are on line. The fact that you have sold yourselves short (by at least $30-60K) for those current captains and soon to be Captains is lost on you.

One dollar per seat lads, one dollar per seat. :rolleyes: :(

RHCP, the point you miss is that the IPG could have crewed it for a LOT more had they had the fortitude to guts it out for more.

At a time when there were HEAPS of ex AN 767 drivers out there, AIPA negotiated a deal that saw pay increase for most/all F/Os and Command pay at least hold their own (and increase in a lot of cases) for the skippers whilst guaranteeing access to fhe flying for their members. This while some Ansett pilots had offered to crew it for 50% less.

Stack that up by the deal that the IPG have done for crewing their aircraft. Same pay for 50% more seats. No other crews out there offering to do it for less, DJ expanding and still recruiting, etc, etc. They were short sighted and have put pressure on both DJ and QF mainline.

Keg's fearless predictions at the end of 2003.

At some stage in the future, QF will have Jetstar flogging across the Tasman.
QF will withdraw from more and more routes where they have been 'unable to extract an 'adequate' return' ( :rolleyes: ) and Jetstar will get them leaving them with the lion's share of the domestic market and QF mainline becoming the niche high end carrier
In about a decade or so, the then CEO of the Qantas group will decide that having all these different businesses is silly and duplicates many jobs and will tie them all up under the one banner again.
At some stage in the next five to seven years, the IPG will be sick to death of their crappy conditions and be begging to have them improved. I'll put money on the fact that they will wnat 'mainline' support for that- possibly when we all end up under the one banner again.

4th Dec 2003, 08:37
Keg, when you state At some stage in the next five to seven years, the IPG will be sick to death of their crappy conditions and be begging to have them improved. I'll put money on the fact that they will wnat 'mainline' support for that- possibly when we all end up under the one banner again.

Have you considered that "banner" could well be the Australian Airlines / Jetstar banner ?

Red Hot Chili Pepper
4th Dec 2003, 08:42

A quick look at QF pay compared to every other jet airline in Oz Pacific (NZ,VB,Freedom,AAE,Air Pacific,Caledonian,Air Naru,NJS,Flt West, Sywest – and there are others) will easily show that QF pilot’s conditions are way above benchmark – i.e. way above market value.

Unions in Oz have traditionally provided a hedge against market forces but Jetstar is how QF will circumvent the influence of AIPA and allow the market to speak.

This is necessary because the 2-airline policy provided the airlines with a hedge against these same market forces. This policy is no longer in force.

It was obvious where pilot conditions were going in Oz the day deregulation was announced.

Does any QF pilot honestly think that had the IPG upped their offer to QF rates that Dixon would not have taken his offer to NJS or AAE or Flightwest or anyone else.

4th Dec 2003, 08:48
Whiskery- yep. Absolutely. I originally included that in my post but in creatingi the list thingy I must've left that out when I was re-typing it.

RHCP, they have only been QFs competitors in recent times. When you compare QF pay for people doing the same job in the areas we've been competing in, we've struggled to maintain the status quo- and yes, that is due to lack of 'fortitude' of us and our predecessors over the last decade or so.

Col. Walter E. Kurtz
4th Dec 2003, 09:14
I still fail to see what mainline has actually done to protect their wage and conditions.

Sincerely, can someone please outline what the AIPA strategy and actions have been in this matter? I mean, this didn't just crop up last week.

For those that criticise the IPG, or any other pilots looking to get into airline flying, how many of you when you were looking for an airline job, would have knocked back the offers that are on the tables now?

"No thanks, that will make me a cheaper pilot than what QF mainline get - and I wouldn't want to devalue their work. I think I will just stay in GA for 1/4 - 1/2 the money" Whilst that is a nice sentiment, and actually has a basis, try telling that to Mr Mastercard when you get another $30 late fee cause you haven't earned enough this month to afford to pay up.

People need the work.

The reality - and a sad one - is that, whilst there is no unified pilot workforce, union or guild that defends and promotes pilot wages and conditions at all levels, and there is an oversupply in labour, there will be an ever increasing downward pressure on wages from managers and economists, especially if we do not defend them adequately, and do something for the others 'further down the food chain'.

A cliche - but has merit: United we stand - Divided we fall.

4th Dec 2003, 09:25
From Michael West's column in "The Australian" 4/12/03

GeoffStar's hangars on

THE advent of its new discount carrier GeoffStar may shortly deliver Qantas a fillip on the cost front. It might even allow that Mangy Old Roo to survive.

It won't be long before Qantas boss Geoff Dixon cements a deal with the unions to crew the new airline.

The plane drivers union is having a yarn with Dicko's troops at the moment. A Qantas domestic captain now takes home about 220,000 a year -- dollars, that is, not hosties.

Word is that GeoffStar is offering about $122,000 for the first year, rising over the next five years to parity with a Virgin Blue captain at about $160,000.

Our sources don't know what first officers and hosties are likely to get, but Geoff reckons GeoffStar will undercut Virgin on costs, and in the Virgin prospectus the hosties are on $36,000 versus $65,000 at Qantas -- so there's your ballpark for savings.

Meanwhile, back at the hangar a tug, which is a vehicle which lugs planes about, accidentally crashed into a brand spanking new Qantas 747 400 yesterday, banging into the engine and ripping off some skin.

Registration OEF, a month old, it will be out for a couple of weeks and Qantas must be hoping it's insured for this sort of thing.

4th Dec 2003, 10:05
Chili Pepper

Impulse have stitched up a concrete deal with seniority which means you will be unlikely to ever get a command in Jetsar.

Some initial DE commands but they will be expected to go to the right hand seat when Impulse F/o's experienced enough.

The Impulse guys may not have sold themselves short at all. Only to their big and affectionate brothers in QF Mainline.

Get yourself into a good Airbus airline abroad before a percentage of disaffected Impulse drivers arrive on the market.

BTW Nobody answered the QF 767 Domestic pay versus Jetstar 160K pay question.

Red Hot Chili Pepper
4th Dec 2003, 10:22

Thanks mate. I already fly the bus and have been since you were in nappies.

4th Dec 2003, 10:56
"DE commands are expected to slip on over to the right hand seat once the 717 boys and gals have enough experience on the new type" :suspect:
You are kidding me, surely:hmm:
Bet those DE skippers are looking forward to that one:mad:

4th Dec 2003, 11:27
Gnade, I can't find the question and in the quick search I could be bothered to do! ;) Let me know what it is/was and I'll do my best to answer it.

In response to the West Australian, OEJ is the 'new' Wunala Dreaming and somehow a tug plowed smack into the back of one of the engines. :uhoh: :{

4th Dec 2003, 12:16

Qantas' Jetstar wins wary nod
By Geoffrey Thomas

JETSTAR, Qantas' new low cost airline, is getting a cautious tick from analysts but fears persist that the new carrier will eat into its parent's share of the domestic market.

UBS analyst Stephen Wood said yesterday that with a lower cost structure, and hence lower ticket prices, he remained apprehensive about cannibalisation.

"However, with an offering that is targeted at the bottom end of Virgin Blue's market, we believe Jetstar should relatively erode Virgin Blue's business to a greater extent," he said.

Macquarie Research Equities suggested Jetstar was not a high risk venture for Qantas and that the new airline would help cut group costs by up to 6 per cent.

For Credit Suisse First Boston analyst Greg Ward, the critical factor is Jetstar's route network and fare structure, to be released in January.

"We believe there remains a healthy dose of scepticism in the market regarding Qantas management's ability to successfully manage the coexistence of an LCA (low cost airline) without cannibalising the margins of the premium carrier," Mr Ward said in a research note to clients.

"We do, however, acknowledge differences between Qantas-Jetstar and past international failures and consequently give Qantas management some benefit of the doubt."

Qantas hopes Jetstar is its ace in the billion-dollar poker battle for the lion's share of the booming Australian domestic travel market.

That card was an agreement, signed last week, with former Impulse Airline pilots who currently fly 115-seat Boeing 717s under the QantasLink banner, to fly 177-seat Airbus A320s for the same pay.

Impulse Airlines was taken over by Qantas in May 2001, just before it was about to collapse and the pilots were kept on the same pay agreements and separate from the full service domestic Qantas operation.

The deal with the pilots is unique on this scale in Australia's turbulent aviation industrial relations history and has its roots in the devastating 1989 pilot strike. Many of the former Impulse Airlines pilots are what are called 89ers - former Ansett and Australian Airlines pilots who refused to return to work in 1989 on lower paid contracts and were forced to work overseas.

Their jobs in 1989 were taken by a combination of those who did accept lower paid contracts and foreign pilots. These pilots make up a big number of the pilots who today fly for Qantas, operating the 45-strong domestic 737 fleet.

When Impulse Airlines and Virgin Blue started operations, many of the pilots were 89ers who returned from overseas.

According to one Qantas pilot, there are extremely deep divisions within the different pilot groups and that rift is set to widen after the former Impulse pilots agreed to fly the Jetstar Airbus fleet on the same pay structure.

That structure sees a Qantas 168-seat Boeing 737-800 captain getting $220,000 a year and a Jetstar 177-seat A320 captain being paid $120,000 a year, according to insiders.



4th Dec 2003, 13:36
Can anyone inform us as to what role AIPA played.

Were they asked to submit a tender to crew LCC or were they completely bypassed?

Just asking.

hey okie,

i hear your back in the saddle. congrats.

4th Dec 2003, 16:02
Oicur, I don't know for sure but I suspect that the deal was done when the LCC was first mentioned. My feeling is that AIPA was cut out of this one a LONG time ago!

Will be interesting to see how this plays out!

flying fruit bat
4th Dec 2003, 17:53
I carn't believe all you mainline drivers, these guys have been flying the 717 at that pay structure for quite a while now an nothing about pay conditions has come up on this forum to suggest there was a problem with that, as soon as a new type is mentioned and you guys perceive that you might be dissadvantaged then all this bullshit starts getting posted
The 717 has taken over most of the east coast operations of NJS and a lot of people have been moved to different parts of the country to continue the Qantaslink operation, although this is a difficult time for NJS Qantaslink crew they accept it because it is part of the job.
I can fully understand why these guys have protected there positions.
You mainline drivers have your conditions protected and if these guys are happy to fly an A-320 for 120,000 + per year then let them.
All this crap about the industry being degraded by this is just that CRAP.
Most young blokes out there would almost give there left or right nacker to fly an A-320 at these pay scales.
I think it actually offers these young blokes a great opportunity and if you mainline drivers can allow your ego's to accept these guys into the mainline umbrella it offers all pilots a good opportunity.
So if NJS pilots are able to accept change of a massive scale then why carn't you guys be accepting of this decision of your management to protect all jobs in the Qantas empire,
you lucky people I wish I was in that position.

Fruit Bat

4th Dec 2003, 18:52
Could not agree with you more Fruit Bat...

Well Said.

spiral climb
5th Dec 2003, 05:11
Out of everything that has been said about this topic, what fruit bat has just pointed out is the best point been made. I've got nothing to do with both sides but how correct he is:ok: