Group (A) ?

[Dewdrop]

Sorry guys, another stupid question. If I fly a group A aircraft on a permit do the hours count towards my PPL(A) revalidation/currency ?

[BEagle]

I presume you mean your SEP (Land) Class Rating?

If re-validating by experience, flight time in a Single Engine Piston (Land) aeroplane will be acceptable no matter whether the aeroplane has a Permit to Fly or a Certificate of Airworthiness.

Flight time in Microlight aircraft will not count towards SEP Class Rating re-validation under JAR-FCL, it has to be on a SEP aeroplane (or TMG if a TMG Rating is included on the licence).

There is no such thing as 'Group 'A' - and hasn't been for nearly 5 years.......

[Dewdrop]

Thanks BEagle but that beggers two other questions:

1. As the term Group A is frequently used by contributors on the PFA site, what are they refering to.

2. When is a microlight not a microlight, ie what is the minimum requirement for an aircraft fitting the PPL SEP category ?

[BEagle]

Well, I'm afraid that those contributors haven't yet caught up with the changes in legislation! 'Group A' disappeared years ago!

If the aeroplane weighs more than 450 kg, it cannot be a microlight. Hence if it isn't a self-launching motor glider or touring motor glider, if it's powered by a single piston engine then it must by default be a SEP aeroplane. The BMAA should be able to assist you with any specific query; however, if the aircraft is G-M***, then it's a Microlight!

Perhaps it'd be easier if you asked "Can I keep my PPL(A) SEP Class Rating valid by hours flown in a ????" But don't forget the training flight requirement!

[Mr Wolfie]

BEagle -

Whilst you are absolutely correct, the confusion is not going to go away whilst the PFA on their website under "accepted aircraft" still catagorise under Microlight and Group A headings. Also, suppliers of kit aircraft in the UK still refer to either microlight or Group A versions (for example the adverts in this months "Flyer" magazine placed by Lewis Aviation for the Zenair Zodiac and 701 kits).

By the way, has anyone got an up to date list of accepted PFA permit aircraft, as the one on the PFA web site does not appear to have been updated for yonks (for example no mention of Vans RV7 8 or 9). I would ask the PFA myself but I understand they are a touch busy with relocation to the midlands and are therefore incomudicado.:confused:

Mr. W

[Dewdrop]

Sorry guys, maybe I'm looking for a simple answer to a difficult question. I have a ppl sep and I want to fly and maintain this licence as cheaply as possible. I was thinking of a home build or permit aircraft to do this. Reading the above, is it simply a question of under 450kg = microlight and over 450kg = aeroplane ? Once again apologies if this genuinely is a complicated question.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Group A is the old name for what is now called "SEP", and the Americans call "SEL". Basically it's single-piston light aeroplanes.

"Permit", is the category of airworthiness, and can include microlights, homebuilt light aircraft, vintage aeroplanes, jets, etc. It's a totally separate issue to the class.

"Microlight" is a complicated definition based upon weight and stall speed. But being simplistic, look at the permit or CofA document - if it doesn't say microlight on it, it's not. (There's one twin flying in this country which is a microlight, and several light aircraft with 2 seats and an MTOW under 450kg which aren't so paperwork is the best way - you can look it up on the G-INFO website too.)


And yes, you can keep your Group A / SEP / SEL license current on any permit aircraft (including PFA homebuilts) to which that license applies - that is single engine, and not a microlight. You can even do your bi-annual flight with an instructor within the PFA's coaching scheme.

G

N.B. Correcting Beagle, not all microlights are G-M***, and a few flying machines that aren't microlights are G-M***. Times change !

[Dewdrop]

Thanks Genghis, informative and concise as always.

[Fly Stimulator]

Basically it's single-piston light aeroplanes.

It also covers light aeroplanes with several pistons! ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

There's always one isn't there ! :mad:

G

[Fly Stimulator]

At least one!

Joking aside, have there actually been many aircraft powered by single-cylinder engines? I suppose the Cri-Cri has two so that's one (as it were), but are there many others?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I can think of a few microlights - Lazair, Photon, Halfpint. Can't think of any light aircraft offhand.

G

[Mike Cross]

Ghengis said

"You can even do your bi-annual flight with an instructor within the PFA's coaching scheme."

To be sure you can but I believe you can also do it in a Permit aircraft outside the coaching scheme. IIRC the limitation is that the instructor is not allowed to be paid for the flight if it is a Permit a/c (and of course you have to be the owner or joint owner of the a/c)

Mike

[Kingy]

Yes, I do my Bi annual flight with an instructor in my Permit Cub - If you are the sole owner or close member of the owner's family you can also receive ab-initio training on a PFA type too as long as it is an 'acceptable type' . I believe the instructors can charge for this ...

Kingy