Airline Pilot Diplomas And Degrees

[atpapa]

There has been a lot of comment on what is a useless aviation degree but has anyone thought of what they would like in a usefull Diploma or Degree for a Pilot wanting to fly the latest types of aircraft that are here and coming soon to a airport near you?

Agreed! Most... if not all current Diplomas and University Degrees seem to prepare a pilot for Management than for a flying position, or am I wrong?

What subjects would you put into an Aviation Diploma or University Degree for a Pilot using it as professional development to be a pilot flying say, The latest SAAB340, The Dash 8-300, The Latest Boeings or Airbuses with the Fly by wire concepts and complex systems.

Some areas you might consider thhinking about are Airline Aircraft Famil, Aviation Technology, Aviation Occupational Health, Safety and Security, Aviation Teaching. What about training in the latest systems such as GPS, INS, EFIS, EICAS, ECAM systems, FMS Training in Airbus FMS, Boeing 737 FMS, Universal UNS 1C, Using the latest PFDs, Navigation Displays, ACARS....... Lots of areas.....

What would you put into a course to professionally develop a pilot for flying the latest aircraft and the aircraft of the future.....

[atpapa]

It is interesting isn't it that there are many views and posts on a topic called "useless aviation diplomas and degrees" but not one comment on what could be useful to a pilot that wants to use a Diploma or Degree for Professional Development. Or is it just that Pilots know everything already. I agree that Flying Pilots don't want to do "useless aviation degrees or diplomas" that give you a qualification that takes you away from Flying, What about a Diploma in Aviation Education for our Flying Instructors, Or a Diploma in Aviation Occupational Health, Safety, Security and Survival, What about a Diploma in Aviation Technology that keeps a pilot up to date with the latest technology such as GPS systems, EFIS, FMS, Autoflight Systems, MCPs etc. What about an ATPL Course that teaches you not only enough information to pass antiquated ATPL Exam subjects, and most don't do that, using aircraft that few still fly and proves nothing more than a money raising exercise for CASA and the Cyberexams providers. The ATPL courses should also prepare us to fly aircraft such as the SAAB 340B, MetroLiner, Beech 1900, Dash 8, Boeing 737NG, 767, 777 and Airbus types for AGK, Performance and Flight Planning, lets get rid of the Boeing 727 out of our ATPL exams. Our courses should have Currency and Validity to be of any use to persons wanting to make a career of flying in the airlines.

[Ang737]

ATPAPA

I believe that CASA have been planning on using the 767 for flight planning for a number of years. As with most of the hobnobs on capital hill they have said that there are plans to introduce the 767 into the syallabus but when? not even God knows.

Ang

;)

[atpapa]

Thanks for your input Ang

I heard the talk about the Boeing 767 going to be used for future ATPL Planning as well, but I wonder who started that rumour, Its been around for years. Why should we start our ATPL students on an airliner such as the B767? I now we have already started using the B767 for the AGK and its a start, But surely we should be preparing new Airline pilots for something easier for the transition such as the USA does with the B1900 or even the SAAB 340B, It's like throwing students into the deep end and see if they swim. I would like to see and approach that takes smaller steps from the known to the unknown and the easier to the harder. I think it is now the right time with all CASAs changes to update the required theory for ATPL to something that starts to prepare a student for flyiing Commuters as well as Airliners, A course should also have a practical application side to the training that enables a student to see why somethings work and others don't, without a practical side Theory does not get used and soon gets forgotton.

[HEALY]

I believe that one of the reasons that the B767 has not been used for Flight Planning is that their is no flight routes within Australia where there is a probem with reduced payload/minimum fuel. This would take out a number of problem questions put into the exam. B767 pilots may be able to say otherwise, it is only speculation.

This was met with the idea of using trips going overseas instead ie Japan/Pacific for some of the bigger questions. This created the problem of providing maps for track/distance calcs. All seemed to hard so idea was shelved.

My opinion is to use B767 but change questions to involve such planning considerations as ETOPS.

[18-Wheeler]

All aviation degrees are not needed.
All that is needed to fly a heavy jet is the ability to mulitply & divide by three. ;)

[Dehavillanddriver]

why not base it all on the 737?

The systems are close to those found on the Dash-8 (and to a lesser extent the SAAB), it has weights approaching those of the old 727, and planning it around the countryside will produce landing weight, zero fuel weight, rtow, etops etc type problems.

and it has the added advantage of being the most popular jet in the world, and widely used in Australia..

[Ang737]

Dehavillanddriver

I totally agree... I am currently study for the planning exam so CASA please hold off any changes until I am done its my last exam. The 737-300 would be a great start and would help those looking at doing the ETA course in the future...

Safe landings

Ang

;)

[atpapa]

I agree with everybody that commented that the Boeing 737 would be a good choice, but why stop at the B737-300, It would seem like a good choice to use the B737 NG Series with the Glass cockpits which will be the most current type flying Domestically in Australia at the moment, But what about the Airbus, with the A330's that QANTAS have and JetStar with the A320 and orders that QANTAS have for the A380 wouldn't it make sense to also learn something about there Systems, Planning and Performance, Maybe CASA could have type 1 Boeing 737 and Type 2 Airbus A320? I don't think we have to worry about quick changes, It would take a long time to change the system, But we have to start somewhere. With all the CASA comments about introducing Competency Based Training, Two of the main principles is Validity and Currency issues. ATPL Flight Planning and Performance exams using the B 727 as an example fails to address these requirements using these rules.

[splatgothebugs]

Bloody good thread ATPAPA, I personally have been known to be a bit outspoken on this topic (aviation degress).

I agree with you all adding more info about actual aircraft and slightly less management info would be a huge draw card.

Learning in very extensive detail about EGPWS, TCAS and similar systems would help every pilot flying today.

If you ever find such a degree let me know :)

The NZ ATPL flight planning has just changed to a 737 and systems has as well, with some simple loading questions for the 1900. In other words it has become more realistic;)

Hopefully this thread continues in its current manner

splat

[redsnail]

The JAR ATPL uses the 737 for the systems. A mixture of single engine, multi engine piston and a mid range turbofan for performance and flight planning...

[belowMDA]

I reaslise that this doesn't exactly answer the question in the post however I shall put in my moneys worth.

My one greatest criticism of aviation degrees is that it demonstrates a lack of diversity within a person. I would have thought an employer might like to see that you are interested in other things in life. How does the line go? "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy".
If I met someone who had left school, gained their licence, then done an aviation degree and done nothing more diverse than this then I would question how broad minded they are. I would of course admire their dedication but there are more things to life than work. There are so many things in life to experience that it seems a folly to waste all your time learning about machines which, likely as not, in 20 or so years will be done with our kind. Now I'm not involved in airline hiring so at the end of the day my post is merely a personal opinion, however, I must say that I cherish the travelling that I did before getting an airline job and the university subjects I took that had no direct involvement in aviation.

[NoseGear]

A good topic this, and I do agree some exams need a bit of updating. However, the aircraft type does not matter as such, because the idea of the exams is not to give you a type rating, but for the student to learn the intricacies of heavy aircraft flight planning, ie fuel burns, weight and balance, take off performance, effects of weight, temperature etc. Whether it be a 737, 727 or 747, what the exams do is give you an insight, and also show that you have the competency to do the sums, as it were.
Atpapa, I agree some exams do need updating, however there is no point conducting an exam on FMC's for example. What would you ask? They are quite straight forward to operate (really!!) and differ from Boeing to Boeing and Airbus, so the subject area is too wide. Same with the EFIS displays. As for GPS, again pretty straight forward and I believe there are questions on it. EGPWS and TCAS, easy to use and easy to understand and interpret, no big deal.

The ATPL exams are not a type rating course, they show an ability to learn and understand complex subjects, ability to study and then pass an exam using the noggin. When you do get a job on a jet, you will learn all you need to know about your airplane on the ground course.

As 18 wheeler said, learn to divide by 3 and you'll be sweet!!

Until then, good luck with those exams.:ok:

Nosey

[The Bullwinkle]

splatgothebugs

I agree with you all adding more info about actual aircraft and slightly less management info would be a huge draw card.

The aviation degree I completed was comprised of the following subjects:

Aviation Biology and Medicine
International Aviation Organisation
Atmospheric Science

Transport Aircraft Performance
Aviation Information Systems
Human Factors in Aviation

Aviation Project
Airways Operation and Design
Planning for Transport Aircraft Operations

Flight Safety
Aviation Legal Studies
Aviation Management for Pilots

There was only one subject related to Management, and all the subjects were relevant to aviation professionals.

belowMDA

My one greatest criticism of aviation degrees is that it demonstrates a lack of diversity within a person. I would have thought an employer might like to see that you are interested in other things in life. How does the line go? "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy".

How can you make such an assumption, that an aviation degree demonstrates a lack of diversity. I would imagine with your very narrow-minded view of tertiary students that my life has been far more diverse than your sheltered existence.

You don't want to do a degree, and that is fine, but stop knocking those who have the dedication and ability to improve themselves.

[belowMDA]

Bullwinkle

you can't have read my post correctly. see the line that says " I would of course admire their dedication".

I am not knocking people who have a degree, far from it. A narrow minded person like myself even has one. What I am getting at is maybe it might be more beneficial to do one in something other than aviation. I am glad I did because pretty much all I do at the moment is eat sleep and breathe my flying job. It was nice to have done something else with my time.

I am not trying to get all superior about anything just trying to give some helpful advice.

Cheers.

[splatgothebugs]

Bullwinkle,

I stand corrected I was not 100% sure. :ok:


With reference to the TCAS, EGPWS ect, I agree with nosegear and so on that it is easy once you know it but intailly its a bit of a headache. If you where to incorporate more info on these systems prior to pilots getting in machinery that has it, it would make flying the machine much easier. :)


splat

[flying_phonebox]

Bullwinkle...... where'd u do the degree, sounds interesting (from the viewpoint of someone sick of flying our indigenous brothers and sisters around all day everyday)

[The Bullwinkle]

flying_phonebox

Griffith University.

Contact Debbie Slater - School of Aviation

The degree is 3 years full-time, but the first year is waived if you have the following:-

ATPL subjects
2500 hours
Instrument OR Instructor rating

I hope this helps.

P.S. don't knock flying the indigenous brothers and sisters around. At least you are flying.

[NoseGear]

Hi Splat, I was talking to some mates who are doing their ATPL subjects, is not TCAS and EGPWS included in the Instruments and Navaids exam? I believe there are some questions on it.

If not, no worries, they are a breeze to use, just turn them on and if they make a noise, do what it says!!!:p :ok:

Cheers

Nosey

[nike]

It seems that there is a continual push for more and varied degrees to be introduced. Why is that?

How does a University decide what types of degrees to develop?

Concerning Aviation, what is wrong with having the appropriate licences and ratings?

With reference to the topic starter and their assertion that there has been many comments made against degrees and little suggestions about what would make a degree worthwhile...please detail how a Aviation Degree would improve my skills, attributes and attitudes as a pilot.

Lets say I am an individual at the start of a potential career in aviation, here I am sitting in the office of a University looking for a reason to undergo a degree. Why?

I can't seem to get past the idea that like most things, the 'seller' is simply money driven. The academic arguement of furthering aviation through the research and development of man-management, with increased focus on safety and learning, I believe can be equally achieved outside of the University environment.

It seems that the challenge was for those "baggers" to step up and detail how the degree could be improved. But before I concern myself with considering improvements, I am not convinced that the degree should exist.

[NoseGear]

Nike, most airlines use a points system to recruit, ie points for age for hours and degrees etc. So that is one good reason I think!!

[splatgothebugs]

Yeah ATPL Navaids does have a little bit on these systems like the various modes ect.

What I was trying to get at was more of an in depth working of the machines, not just what does pull up terrain mean ;)

Agreed this gear is easy to use, but have you ever looked at it and just wondered. :ok:

[nz_phoenix]

I'm currently on a Diploma of Technology (Aviation) in New Zealand.

We are lucky because we have been given 3 options. We do 3 semesters of compulsory credits (which includes PPL, CPL and MEIR) then in the 4th we can either:

1. Take all our ATPL theory subjects for a 'frozen' ATPL (due to the lack of hours in the course, 240 total, it is not possible to get the full ATPL)

2. We can gain a C Cat Flight Instructors ratings.

3. We can take business papers in management ETC.

It gives us the freedom to pursue our aviation careers down whatever path we choose.

I know that I will personally be going for the C Cat rating as I wish to start instructing. I can still do the ATPL subjects at a later date when I am closer to the required 1500 hours needed for it.

[slice]

nz_phoenix, are you aware that to actually be awarded an NZ ATPL you have to take a flight test in a >5700 kg aircraft (ie B1900, Metro III etc.)

Strange thing is, in Australia you don't and under the TTMRA you get an NZ ATPL based entirely on your Australian licence!

[csfpm560]

I believe that nose gears comments are out to lunch. What is the point of taking a degree if the theory cannot be applied and be useful in your eventual goal.
Think again nose gear, or are you thinking?

[nike]

I agree with you csfpm560, but unfortunately too many people are only interested in climbing ladders. It seems the "eventual goal" is not to be good at their job, rather to make money and therefore people are more inclined to look at how one can impress the interview panel.


Slice, does the option to do the ATPL in a light turbine (ie 1040) or a pressurised light twin (ie C421) no longer exist?

[Luke SkyToddler]

Jeez you lot ... this is the 'downunder' forum isn't it?

Face it none of you are going to get even the most basic of basic little-turboprop-commuter airline jobs without a couple thousand hours of GA. In fact in oz/nz you need to be rich or gay or very very lucky, to get to sit in the driver's seat of a flashy jet within 10 years of starting your flying training. So, who really gives a monkey's teste whether you studied for your ATPL flight planning in a 767 or a 737, back when you were at flying school :sad:

Nope if you want a useful aviation degree, why don't you offer courses in how to drive rusty old 206's around the swamps of north queensland. Or how to instruct chinese cadets for 1,866 consecutive touch and go's in the Ardmore circuit without turning homicidal.

All those who successfully passed that, could do advanced courses learning how to fly hammered old non de-iced Aztecs around the Tararuas on night freight runs in the middle of July. Or maybe how to successfully bullsh!t a load sheet so you can fit 6 big fat businessmen + baggage + full tanks into a Seneca 1 :ok:

Alright that is tongue in cheek but I am dead serious when I say, if you look at the utter bollocks content of something like the Massey course, and take a long hard look at the state of those wet-behind-the-ears muppets that run about there thinking they are god's gift to aviation, the last thing those poor kids need is any more encouragement to fuel their fantasies that they are going to be jet pilots when they graduate. Because lets face it 99% of them are destined to be vacuum cleaner salesmen.

It's not even their fault they fail, after 3 years on that course none of those kids has been equipped with a single one of the skills they need to keep their noses above water in this brutal industry.

I've said it before about degrees and I'll say it again ... if I wanted to teach my kid how to drive, I wouldn't make him spend 3 years in a classroom learning the darkest secrets of Toyota management practices and then only let him out once every 6 months for a few laps of the woolworths car park.

At the end of the day flying is a motor skill and a pretty bloody simple one, and you only learn how to do it by getting out there and F*CKING DOING IT. Anyone who pays that much money to spend 3 years to get a head full of bullsh!t and only 200 hours in the logbook to show for it, is a sucker and a fool.

PS nike and splat, kia kaha, merry xmas to yourselves from all the boys up north :ok:

[Jaguar7777]

hi all

since i have both an adv. dip of aviation and a bachelor of science i guess i have the best of both worlds...the aviation stuff and the uni subjects.

Will doing university psych, management, math, physiology and biology help my career??? ...... maybe or maybe not.

But im still glad i did it. Aviation ain't everything in life.

Having said that good luck to anyone trying to develop a "better" aviation degree to increase pilots skills, those that are interested will benefit.:ok:

[Thermal Bandit]

Guys and Gals,

It is easy reading your posts to quickly assess the haves and have nots, when it comes to Dip or Bach qualifications.

While you are young, and driving 30yo Cessna or Pipers round the outback Dip or Bach qualifications are not very relevant. Later in life, if you continue in aviation, and I know that most of you never see the day your not, you may regret the day you did not undertake additional study.

Scenario

Your 50 and a line driver with an airline, and you are having problems maintaining your medical; no direct fault of your own, age is not being kind to you. Alterative jobs are available within your airline requiring an operational background (flying) and academic qualifications. The haves will continue to enjoy a productive aviation career, while the have-nots will be forced to leave the industry at an age when alternative employment may be hard to find.

There are many very rewarding jobs in aviation that do not involve flying; my advice is keep your options open.

[splatgothebugs]

Long time no hear chap, hope all is going well in the windy isle.

Merry xmas and happy new year to you all:)

splat